Is it unethical, due to over population, to breed many children.

[ZombieHorde]

Poll question: Is it unethical, due to over population, to breed many children.

[seemslikeadream]

1. The word breed is strange

to me anyway

[Bobbieo]

13. We are breeders because we are the human animal

[seemslikeadream]

66. To me breeding implies no emotional connection

[mrreowwr_kittty]

77. Very often, there isn't.

[seemslikeadream]

82. I don't believe that

[Lorien]

92. I wish I didn't believe it

but nearly every man I've ever been involved with was just a user of women. Seems like the norm to me. :shrug:

[Indenturedebtor]

125. Nearly every woman I've ever been with was shallow and conceited

Maybe the both of us just have bad taste. :shrug:

[MonteLukast]

189. Lorien and Indenture: the non-shallow don't often get rewarded for it

You know the drill... the social sanctions that come from NOT being shallow. The being called nerdy, cold, stiff, or just plain not fun.

The one great allure of the shallow and the bimbo is the impression of likability and non-threateningness. The ONLY great allure.

[Indenturedebtor]

204. Heheh I can pretend to care about sports and fashion, cars and crap

But every second that I'm doing that is a moment of pure mental agony. I work in sales because for awhile it promised the best money when I needed it. Man how I HATE trivial conversations. That's why I spend so much time on DU... I need to talk to people who actually give a shit about something that matters, and care enough to form measured opinions!

I've often gotten "You're too serious." hah. Life is serious. Sometimes it's a gas, but if I want a completely predictable conversation with no point i'll talk to my dog. He's warm and fuzzy :D

[MonteLukast]

206. How to make more substantial small talk?-- a few ideas

While I worked in retail I talked a LOT with customers. And about non-trivial stuff, too. Current events, usually. I talked with lots and lots of strangers, and I was amazed to get a more positive response than I had anticipated. (I'm sure everyone knows this already, but in customer service the customers are cool people, it's the management that's unreasonable and holds a lot of irrational ideas.)

One of my tricks was a more substantial variety of small talk. Almost always a question. Often about current events, though sometimes a simple point of curiosity.
It was shorter than I feared, too, only about one or two sentences in. I'm very cynical and frustrable about the time it takes to make someone comfortable enough for the "good stuff". To my pleasant surprise, it turned out to not be that long.
The main, sometimes the only, purpose of small talk is to make your listener comfortable. Now, I don't want to go into a whole long rant right now about comfortability and how it's the root of all the "nice", subtle evils in the world, but I knew that if I had go through the unfortunate necessity of a preamble before the real conversation, I should find a way to make it meaningful in itself. For Dog's sake, no weather talk!! And forget the old rules about no politics, religion or sex; it can bring you together IF you're courteous about it.
If a customer was in a hurry, or otherwise indicated lack of interest, I shut up.
I guess the big thing is, don't adhere to a time schedule when putting in that minimal daily requirement of beginning small talk. Rely on the nonverbal cues of the listener, rather than a minute or a minute thirty seconds or whatever.

Some other tricks were rejoinders, usually from topics on magazine covers (I worked in a newsstand) where I'd segue into "stuff that really matters"; i.e. Brangelina transitioned into how celebrities use too many corporate jets and why don't we come up with a plane that runs on renewables?

I'm not sure how well those tricks would've worked in any other scenario. I highly suspect the current societal climate has something to do with it: people around me are more open to discussion and pondering substantial stuff than I've seen them in years; and it did start in late 2006, so I have to wonder: am I really presenting myself differently, or do the Democrats have something to do with it?

[Indenturedebtor]

210. I'm not sure where you live. But here in Arizona people still have their heads up their asses

Mention anything remotely to do with politics and you're likely to make a friend into a stranger heh. That doesn't stop me with coworkers but with clients I don't really have a choice:(

Also, since we have one of the worst education systems in the country, mention anything remotely interesting and you're likely to be treated to a few sentences that make you want to rip your ears off. Things like "Wow you studies Psychology? Are you reading my mind right now?" Gah. Gah. Gah.

I'm on the phone now though so it's a little better if boring as hell. I say the same thing 125 times a day heh. My wife took a day off and hung out with me in there while she screwed around on the other computer and she said that I was driving her insane with my broken record.

I should start getting high at work. Why the hell not eh. It's not like I need a brain to do this job. In fact it may well be hampeing me....

[MonteLukast]

242. I'm from Colorado.

My guess is that if anybody's going to hate talking about politics, it'd be in Arizona. They're Republicans, but they don't like McCain. So, what choice have they got? Sounds like either a shutdown in the face of feeling powerless, or McCain being more boring than I think (not that Kyl R-Faceless is any better).

Get thee to your local Democratic Party and Obama office, pronto!-- for a better class of people to hang out with. Getting in with the local Dems saved my soul, I tell ya-- made me believe in myself again and gave me a truly nourishing social support system for the first time in years.

And yes, I'm bragging, but Colorado was really the pioneer in turning America blue. In 2004, both of Colorado's state legislatures turned Dem for the first time since the 70's, and was the only state to add Dems-- the Salazars-- to the House and Senate. What happened in 2006 for everyone was basically Colorado 2004 redux.

[Indenturedebtor]

252. I've always been surprised that CO wasn't Blue

You guys seem pretty intelligent and you care about the environment. Always really surprised me.

[MonteLukast]

282. Blame it on that magical fairy dust called "We'll lower your taxes." (nm)

[Lorien]

197. It's strange, but sometimes I think we attract what we fear the most

like those people who seem to have an excessive fear of lightning and then get struck, or Natalie Wood, fearing drowning, and that's what kills her in the end...I fear being used and abandoned and/ or abused, so I seem to attract men who will do just that (though they never seem the type when I meet them). You're probably thinking "Oh please, just DON'T let her be shallow and conceited"-and then you find yourself across the table from someone who thinks that politics don't effect her life and that you should feel lucky to be seen with her, especially in her super cute outfit. Guys always THINK that I'll be a date just like that (long blonde hair, cleavage), but when I ask them what they think of Chomsky's assertions about America's strong arm tactics with third world Nations, or if they saw the latest flick at the art house movie theater they call me an "intellectual" like it's some sort of horrid insult, then they ask me why I don't show more skin by wearing short skirts, etc (I'm not very happy with my appearance and have never measured up in my own eyes). Too bad we can't get our dates together; sounds like they would be very happy with one another!

[Indenturedebtor]

203. Fortunately I'm not dating anymore. I found someone who's only "flaw" to me

Is that I know her so well and I'm impatient when we talk sometimes because I know what she's going to say 90% of the time. We think too much alike heh.

But I did date a lot and I seemed to end up with the same sorts of girls... I think that it was probably because something about their character was reflected in the way they moved or whatnot.

Your problem probably is that there simply aren't that many intellectuals out there on the ground. Easy to find in a graduate studies program or on the internet, but the percentages are against you! Maybe you could meet a good looking guy in a noam chomsky reading club? :D

[Lorien]

260. Do reading clubs still exist? Hell, most of the people I meet here in

Florida have never read a book cover to cover that wasn't a class assignment, but they do know about the latest games for the Wii and what happened on the last episode of LOST. Gotta get the hell outta this state... :-(

[Indenturedebtor]

262. Florida? Yikes hehe. Move to Boston or something :D n/t

[Bonobo]

364. You are probably seeking that behavior out subconciously!

Glad to help. No charge.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

97. Perhaps the most cruelly pernicious myth in all of human thought

Is that of the "maternal" or "parental instinct". Certainly many people look at that newborn and are instantly smitten, and would move mountains to protect that child. It's also the meme pushed by the anti-choicers: "Every baby is a pweshus miracle from Gawd!" This emotional bonding is not the case with every human that procreates, by far. There are many parents who are abusive, neglectful, and/or incompetent. You can't open a newspaper without seeing some tragic story about a child who had the misfortune of being born to people who clearly had no interest in, and no business being, parents. Those are the extreme cases that get reported on, but they are the tip of the iceberg that includes millions of families where maybe there isn't enough abuse or neglect for law enforcement to intervene but the parents procreated by accident or because it was expected of them and don't really like, much less love their children very much.

[seemslikeadream]

110. It is an insult to me to be called a breeder because some one else

doesn't have the capacity to be a good parent

[mrreowwr_kittty]

111. Maybe it's a good thing if it shakes you out of the romantic illusions you seem to have.

Your personal magical and emotion-laden experience with parenthood is not universally applicable. The plain fact is that a lot of people are mindless breeders. Instead of being upset at a word, why don't you do something to advance the cause of responsible parenthood?

[seemslikeadream]

113. I don't have any romantic illusions WHERE THE HELL DID YOU GET THAT IDEA?

I believe MOST parents are decent human beings and love their children that's not romantic it is the truth



How many children do you have? Where did you get your masters in motherhood?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

116. Oh here we go with the "I'm a parent therefore an expert" bit.

I don't have kids but I did have a childhood. And I have eyes to see and ears to hear the people around me.

I also agree that *most* parents are decent. But a sizeable minority are not. There's a reason why therapists always do a brisk business.

[seemslikeadream]

266. No it's more like I am not a parent and I know everything about being one

I have 4 kids 36 30 28 and 17

and 4 grandchildren


So I've seen my share of stuff


and part of that "stuff" was people like you judging things you know nothing about

[pollo poco]

289. Gosh, you have lots o kids!

How proud you are!

But you live in a world where others can observe and comment.
Like I can be against war without being a soldier.
Cause I can see the bombs blowing up and stuff.

Just by observing them.

Or maybe no one should have an opinion about anything.

Like I should shut up about George W because I can't really understand what it is to be super rich. I know nothing about it!
And, of course we should never sue for malpractice- after all only a doctor can really know. Who are patients to comment?
My neighbors who tether their dog all day? How can I judge- I don't even have a dog!

This argument is so tiresome, and you hear it from the self righteous people of all walks of life- but especially from self indulgent breeders, who think that their decision to have a kid is some kind of noble sacrifice on behalf of all society. It's not. It's a thing you decided to do. Bully for you. But procreating is obviously not a pressing necessity. It's something you decided you wanted to do. Skip the self righteousness. I do not consider that you did something great for the world just by having four kids.

And I can observe plenty. There is more than one truth. One could argue that parents lose sight of the big picture, and could occasionally benefit from an outside perspective.
That is usually considered reasonable. Why does having kids put you above the opinions of the rest of us?

[Scout]

291. oh boy, you're in for it now! i hope you have your flamesuit on! n/t

[seaglass]

171. The term is meant to be insulting and those who use it know it. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

180. I did not mean to be insulting.

I used the word because I did not think of the word "procreate" and because I think that the word "breeder" is funny.

[seemslikeadream]

182. I'm sorry but I find it insulting

[ZombieHorde]

184. No need to be sorry, we all have our buttons, and you were not a jerk about it.

[treestar]

223. Any chance of getting on to the question?

Does taking offense at the term breeding mean that it is not unethical to have more than 2 children in this day and age? Or is there still room for the idea is unethical (not illegal, unethical).

[seemslikeadream]

264. I didn't see that question in the OP

[ZombieHorde]

275. Why?

[seemslikeadream]

276. Because I AM NOT A BREEDER -- I AM NOT...........

A person who breeds animals or plants

An animal kept to produce offspring

Offensive Slang. A heterosexual person.

A breeder reactor



Veterinary Dictionary: breeder
1. a person with an animal enterprise involving the multiplication of the herd, flock or group.
2. a female animal used basically for the production of saleable young.


b. bull — a bull sold specifically as a sire with an implied guarantee of fertility. Such bulls are usually replaced free of charge with a comparable animal by the vendor if the bull is not a fertile calf getter.
b. flock — a flock of hens producing fertile eggs for hatching purposes.
seedstock b. — producer of breeding stock for purebred and commercial breeders.


http://www.answers.com/topic/breeder


oh and neither are ANY human beings


You really should choose your words more carefully

[ZombieHorde]

290. oh and neither are ANY human beings

Look at the first thing you say no Human is: A person who breeds animals or plants (Humans are animals)

And the third thing you say no Human is: A heterosexual person

That is pretty funny if you think about it.

I see that you omitted "A source or cause: social injustice—a breeder of revolutions." I will assume that this title is not offensive, yet still funny.

The Veterinary Dictionary definitions could apply to our capitalist society if you are cynical enough.

Is it being compared to a non-Human animals that is so offensive?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

314. Parents in this country have become accustomed to being worshipped

They expect it. Look at the way politicians pander to parents. It's disgusting. Anything less than the genuflection they feel entitled to is a grave offense them. Of course, the one you're responding to is upset that you're (truthfully) pointing out that she is a breeder, of humans. How DARE you compare her to some lowly animal like that! As far as she's concerned, she's a saint and her children and grandchildren are speshul angels from Gawd.

[seemslikeadream]

317. Parents are not farm animals breeding

[mrreowwr_kittty]

324. Well yeah, most of them don't do it on a farm.

But what they are doing is breeding, like it or not.

[seaglass]

231. I don't believe you but I'll leave the possibility open that you are ignorant. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

267. It is true that I am ignorant at how easily people get offended here on DU.

It is amazing how seriously people take themselves. To be offended by something as small as the word "breed".

Seems silly to me.

[seaglass]

280. It is not just on DU that the term "breeder" is known to be an insult - but

you know that. And obviously you don't care about being offensive. Enjoy your little not-so-innocent game.

[ZombieHorde]

296. I know it is a childs insult, but I did not know that any adult would actualy be offended.

It must be all those years of heterosexuals being oppressed.

[seemslikeadream]

298. It is not a childs insult

It is used as an insult by a very ignorant person who knows the meaning of the word

[sammythecat]

185. I was just going to use those exact same words. n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

319. Kinda like when people call me "selfish" for not breeding. They mean it as an insult too.

Funny how it's always been okay to insult non-parents right to their faces but one must never, ever question the motives of the sainted procreaters. Heavens no!

And actually, the use of the term "breeder" was not simply borne out of a desire to insult you guys (though we do enjoy watching your reactions to it), it was intended to illustrate that human reproduction is not this spiritual and noble and glorious act that people make it out to be. It's no more special than dogs or cats or pigs or bacteria reproducing. Every life form does it; you're no different. That's the point of calling you a "breeder".

[Scout]

322. Bravo! Bravissimo!! n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

329. Yup. It's always used as a prejorative by the childless.

:puke:

[Scout]

333. that's child FREE, not childless n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

335. See? It can go both ways.

Glad you got that. I did it on purpose.

[Scout]

337. yeah, i knew that n/t

[jmowreader]

247. How much "emotional connection" do you think Michelle Duggar has with her kids?

I can't imagine those children getting the individual attention they need...well, unless they fuck up somehow, and then they'll get LOTS of individual attention.

If I was one of those kids, I'd ask to be sterilized for my eighteenth birthday. There's not a doctor in the world who wouldn't do it.

[seemslikeadream]

263. Who is Michelle Duggar?

Is that what this thread is about, couldn't tell by the OP

[eShirl]

269. I googled it and found a link

http://health.discovery.com/convergence/duggars/funfacts.html

[seemslikeadream]

271. I just did also

To my surprise she has as many children as my grandmother had! Well my grandma had 19 but Duggar has some time left. My dad was the youngest so I'm kinda glad they didn't stop with 18 LOL

[Midlodemocrat]

339. How do you know? None of us knows.

I know people with one child who have no emotional connection with them.

Judging other people's choices isn't what we're about.

[jmowreader]

403. I'll have to disagree with the "judging" comment

Do this: open a new thread, type in "I just bought a Hummer!" add a photo of an H1 off a website somewhere, and click Send. You'll be judged severely.

You know that as well as I do. You've been here longer.

Similarly, we judge the Duggars all the time. She's pregnant with number 19 right now; in three more kids they'll be able to use standard NFL formations in their touch football games. In a family that big, the older kids raise the younger ones--I've read plenty on that family that indicates they work that way.

The Duggars are poster children for the Quiverfull movement--the one that recommends having as many children as possible. I believe Jesus would be happy as hell if you had three or four then raised them to believe in The LORD, rather than raising twenty.

[chemenger]

217. Yes it is. I prefer to think of it as sex with consequences,

n/t

[unpossibles]

2. it's a complicated issue, and depends on the family

I don't think a specific number is the answer but rampant breeding like the family with 17 kids is just disgusting, imo, and wrong.

[ananda]

3. The word unethical is wrong.

It is indeed irresponsible to have more than one
or two kids, but it IS a person's right to
reproduce as much as they fucking want.

[slackmaster]

22. I think it's irresponsible to have children that you are not capable of caring for

Physically or financially.

[Common Sense Party]

Or emotionally--giving them the time and love they need.

But if a family can do it, more power to them.

I know many families with 6, 8, 12 children. I don't know how they do it, but they do. Some are better at it than others.

Three is plenty for us--especially when one is severely autistic.

[MonteLukast]

190. Exactly. Start with the ones already here BEFORE making any new ones! (nm)

[Indenturedebtor]

126. That's the same argument of SUV buyers I heard every day for 3 years

"I know it burns a ton of gas but hey if I can afford it then why not."

I always felt like saying "I can stab you in the throat with a screwdriver... so why not?" :grr:

[MonteLukast]

207. Beware anybody who says they do something "because they can."

That was even Bill Clinton's answer to why the business with Monica, and while it may have been a statement of "get off my back", I still cringed.

[slackmaster]

225. Is it ethical for government to dictate something like reproduction because it can?

I don't believe it is.

[slackmaster]

221. Then let's eliminate tax deductions for children in excess of two, and make them pay for education

Rather than having the rest of us take up the slack through our taxes.

[Indenturedebtor]

409. Seriously it's not like we need more than two per person... why subsidize it? n/t

[Lorien]

132. I knew a woman from a Catholic family who had 13 siblings

every time we went to a company lunch she would attack the breadbasket like a starving wolf. Appetizers too. Apparently her mother became bored with a child once it was walking and talking, so she'd pass it on to the older children to care for and have another one. The family was not well off, so there was never enough food. Since the parents were only ever concerned about the youngest child the others had to fend for themselves. She was messed up in a lot of ways because of her upbringing and was always apologizing for her behavior. It really wasn't her fault and she was trying to change, but I always wondered what sort of person she would have been if her parents had stopped at a family size they could have managed.

[treestar]

226. Yes and it may be somewhat more irresponsible towards the planet

to have more than two Americans as opposed to more than two Africans or Indians. Though it seems that prosperity lowers the population rate, which is a fortunate act of nature. You're more sure the ones you have will survive to adulthood, and they cost $$ rather than representing farm labor or the like, so luckily nature takes care of it.

[The Stranger]

232. What about having children the planet is unable to support?

[noamnety]

410. Are you okay with it, if the parents are rich enough

to support their kids due to their exploitation of others?

[Deja Q]

34. No. Guppies and bunnies have the right to reproduce as much as they fucking want.

But for humans? We're supposed to know better.

If people have any consideration of others, they would not reproduce irresponsibly.

IT IS NOT A RIGHT.

[Common Sense Party]

40. Define "irresponsibly."

[Tesha]

407. Guppies and bunnies have predators.

We have guns, and with our guns, we have
killed off anyone who might prey on us.

Tesha

[fascisthunter]

4. I think it is unethical

at least for me

[Faygo Kid]

5. I'm not getting much of an opportunity these days to express a meaningful opinion.

Those were the days, my friend. I thought they'd never end.

But they did.

[flvegan]

6. Oh, baby!

In early.

:popcorn:

[Midlodemocrat]

8. Move over and pass me some.

:beer:

[readmoreoften]

7. I don't know. Do the people in question have access to birth control and abortion?

If not, then it's unethical to even make judgments.

[ZombieHorde]

16. Let's asusme that they do have access to those things.

[bean fidhleir]

343. "then it's unethical to even make judgments."

Except about their lack of Choices.

[Two Americas]

9. "breed"

I object to the word "breed" when referring to human beings.

[ZombieHorde]

19. What would be a better word?

[Common Sense Party]

23. How about "have"

Or "give birth to" or something not related to animal husbandry.

[ZombieHorde]

29. Do you believe that people are animals?

[Common Sense Party]

36. Do I believe that people should be kept as pets or livestock?

No.

[ZombieHorde]

50. That is nice, but I asked if people were animals.

[Common Sense Party]

59. Not in the sense that you seem to.

[Indenturedebtor]

127. People are NOT ANIMALS

We're a virus that is poised to burst the cell of our host. Magical thinking and oxitocyn swishing around in the brain aside.

[MonteLukast]

145. Any time a human chooses to put their higher-level thinking aside...

... they are, in effect, letting their animal natures predominate.

Putting survival over truly living.

That's what the 9/11 fear tactics do: give us the message that "You're not free if you don't live!"

Well, you ain't exactly living if you're not free, either, buster.

After they've removed the last of civil liberties, they expect us to tell ourselves, "Well, at least we're alive! and safe and secure!"

[Indenturedebtor]

155. I'm not recommending government enforcement

But lets not screw everything up to the point where we have to use that sort of mechanism. Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

In much the same way I think that as a society we need to "counsel" drug users instead of jailing them. I think that we should counsel one another about using our genitalia responsibly.

[MonteLukast]

158. Being conscious of the enormity of living was enough for me.

Knowing that each person next to me in gridlock on the freeway, was once a baby. Knowing that each person I'm competing with for a job or a romantic prospect, was once a baby. Knowing that perhaps one reason our health care is having problems is that there are too many of us. Too many people who, 30-40 years ago, were, you guessed, babies. Non-negotiables that couples in love just HAD to have... regardless of the long-term effects.

Well... now I've seen that life doesn't work like that. For example, you can't just add water and have a happy family; you have to have years of productive interaction and make a lot of good, conscious choices.

When you fall in love, your lover went through a particular pathway in life. If anything about their path was different, you very likely wouldn't be attracted to each other, like each other, or even have met each other. Ergo, you want to get your pathway RIGHT. You think very hard about the emotional and spiritual needs that will arise at ALL stages of your life.

And it becomes too much to confine your concept of "family" to just you, hubby, and the kids. It becomes unconscionable to you to forget about the lonely and neglected.

At least, that's the change you undergo if you're like me.

[Indenturedebtor]

202. You should stop doing psychotropics on the subway :D

Seriously though that is what it's all about. I think everyone here genuinely does care about the human family. Some just don't want to face the fact that there are limits to our resources, and that we will have to make changes to continue to survive within those limits.

[Two Americas]

60. I believe that I am one - a human being

I believe that you are a human being, too, a fellow human being.

I doubt that dogs "think" of each other as "animals."

Whether we, or dogs, are or are not "animals" is not relevant to this discussion.

This is about how we think of each other, which always leads to how we treat each other, not about our taxonomical position in a textbook.

[ZombieHorde]

74. To be honest, I like the word "breed" because I like to call my straight friends "breeders".

As in; "Shut up and go breed some fucking babies you fucking breeder."

I am not anti-straight by the way, I have two kids of my own.

edit to add: I also wanted to make sure that people knew that I was excluding adoption.

[TahitiNut]

81. Some are apparently vegetables.

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

94. I like "spawn"

:rofl:

[ZombieHorde]

128. Very good. I like it too.

[csziggy]

159. Yeah "breed" implies there is some planning involved

"Spawning" on the other hand implies mindless procreation.

I breed horses and there is no way I would let a mare pump out a foal every year. It is not good for the mare and the market can be overloaded with over breeding. The world is overloaded with humans and we do not need more than it's carrying capacity - which we probably passed decades ago.

[cherokeeprogressive]

119. Reproduce. Procreate.

[ZombieHorde]

129. Procreate would have been very good.

"Is it unethical, due to over population, to procreate many children?"

I think that that would have worked well. Yet breed is funnier.

[nam78_two]

45. We are animals-in many ways some of the most toxic ones on the planet right now

We treat each other so badly that I am not surprised that we treat other species even worse often.

[Two Americas]

64. I like people

I like people, I am on their side, and I will defend them.

Your mileage may vary.

Without people, there would be no one to categorize us as animals, and no one to care about the fate of the planet or the environment.

Do you really think that badgers, for example, would choose the environment or saving the planet over their own self-interest if it came down to that? Insects? Bacteria? Plants?

I am a human being, I love my fellow human beings, and I stand with them. To me that is the rock solid core of what it means to be a liberal.

[RB TexLa]

88. In the future we will be able to create humans without breeding, but right now that is how it

happens.

[razors edge]

10. It should be against the law

to breed children, as a matter of fact, I think it is.

[kimmerspixelated]

11. I think it may be unethical to go the fertilization way.

Fooling nature with multiples, seems so frankenstein-ish on many levels. It's also not right to limit the number of kids one has, but it seems like a bad choice, to not consider adoption, on the other hand, why is it so much easier to adopt from China or Russia than it is here?

We had one, but tried the second time to no avail. But now we don't regret just the one-sy, by any means!

[EFerrari]

12. Studies I've skimmed say that the birthrate goes down when

the infant mortality rate goes down.

In other words, when your infants survive, you don't produce as many of them.

[Quantess]

14. Since when is "more than two children" considered "many"?

This poll is bogus.

[eShirl]

20. ever since 3 > 2

[Deja Q]

30. If I was a manager looking for an accountant, I know who I'd hire...

[ZombieHorde]

41. Super awesome!

[eShirl]

now that's quite a return on "investment"

:evilgrin: :rofl: :hide:

[Quantess]

39. In what dictionary does "many" mean more than 2?

Many means a large number.
It's subjective, depending on the context.

[eShirl]

47. of course it is subjective

it is not a term of precision

[ZombieHorde]

49. If my genitals were riped open three times (child birth), I would consider that to be many times.

[Quantess]

80. LOL. That's why I haven't had any kids yet.

I keep putting off having one because I'm afraid of the changes to my body.

One child is too many for some people. But, some people are better parents, who do a great job of raising 4 or 5. So, I'm saying that it all depends on each family, how many is too many.

[Common Sense Party]

15. People "breed" horses and dogs.

My wife and I are raising three wonderful children. I don't begrudge anyone that has more, as long as they provide for them. I also don't look down on anyone who chooses not to have children, or only wants one or two.

It's only irresponsible, IMHO, when they expect other people to support them.

[ZombieHorde]

25. I did a poll on wether or not people were animals because of statements like that...

People said of course people are animals!

[Common Sense Party]

28. Bunch of animals!

[Indenturedebtor]

130. That's the problem though - the planet has to support them n/t

[taught_me_patience]

17. Nope

It is not unethical nor immoral. People can have as many children as they please.

[slackmaster]

18. Other - Reproductive fitness has a curvilinear relationship with intelligence

People who are most likely to reproduce are those with the most common IQ score, i.e. 100. People with a very low or very high IQ are the least likely to have children.

High fertility is often an indication of mediocre intelligence. It has nothing to do with ethics.

[rucky]

21. What if your name is Duggar?

[Deja Q]

26. Then mommy is a clown and treats her body like a used jalopy for little clowns to pop out of

[Mojambo]

24. Yes. There's only so many parking spaces. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

27. lol

[Common Sense Party]

31. There's always mass transit. n/t

[Mojambo]

43. A crowded bus is worse than circling hours for a spot.

For a misanthrope there a few things worse than being squeezed into a train or bus with other human beings.

[Common Sense Party]

46. I agree. I got used to it when I lived in Argentina,

because ALL the trains and buses were crowded.

But now, I often pass up a shuttle bus to the economy lot at the airport if the bus is too crowded. I'd rather wait for the next one than squeeze in there like a sardine.

[Indenturedebtor]

131. Try being a misanthrope with a sales job

I shave minutes off my life every time I call someone :(

[Mojambo]

160. Oh, I hear you. n/t

[treestar]

227. I don't mind that

A "traffic jam" takes up so much more time. When the subway is crowded, it may be uncomfortable, but it can move just as fast.

[Two Truck]

32. Breeding is indeed the problem

Folks have stopped RAISING them.

personally, I'd like to advise you to stay out of my bedroom. ok?

[ZombieHorde]

35. I am already in your bedroom.

[El Supremo]

33. Other: Eating of children should be legal.

But only if they're well done.

WC Fields

[Breeze54]

51. "I love children....... boiled." - WC Fields -

:P

[Deja Q]

37. Gawd. Reading these responses, we have sooo become a nation of WHINERS! Like gag me with a spoon.

/gaudy80svalleygirlspeak

[Breeze54]

38. To late... I gave birth to three. So, shoot me.

:P

[ZombieHorde]

42. Worse than Hitler!!!!

[Breeze54]

48. Well; some say I tend to be a 'little bossy'...

:rofl:

[ZombieHorde]

52. Worse than Everyone Loves Raymond!

[BigDaddy44]

55. But not as bad as Al Gore!!

(who has 4)

[ZombieHorde]

69. You mean Al "Pol Pot - Hitler - Country Music" Gore.

[MonteLukast]

157. Sting, too.

Mr. Environmentalist, and father of 4 or 5.

(Even worse, has a huge carbon footprint because of his multiple mansions and frequent use of private jets. Always the %^$&^#&$ing private jets.)

There's something about having kids, I guess. Something deep and visceral that's going to take a LOT of higher-level thinking to overcome.

Al and Tipper, in fact, wanted 6, but "settled for four". They had fallen love at first sight. I guess romantic love just does things to people. :shrug:

[Breeze54]

56. You mean his Mom? No, not quite but

even my Dad said I seemed like a drill Sargent sometimes

with my kids when they were little. Gee; I wonder where

I learned THAT from?! :sarcasm:

(He worked as a civilian with the Army for 37 years!) :rofl:

Didn't hurt my kids though. They have their shit together. ;)

[treestar]

230. That's taking the issue personally indeed

Plenty of people have more than two for various reasons, notably one who is older would - the society encouraged it - but is it unethical now? Or, would it be unethical to have 10 these days? Three is still not many.

[Shipwack]

44. #6 I don't think I should be directing children who to have sex with....

Not to mention, I don't think that children should be having sex anyway...

Really, now... Breed? Your word choice was inelegant, at best. Also, how many is "many"?

In any event, local conditions matter. Agrarian societies without machinery need more children, or those with a high child mortality rate.

[ZombieHorde]

62. Lets see, you made three points.

The first one is pretty funny. I will just have to laugh at myself for that one.

The second is about my word choices, which I am happy with.

The third one has a real point. I stared at it for about a minute, I think that you may be right.

[AlCzervik]

53. I'd be for no more Duggars. I'd like to know what her uterus is made of because i'm

pretty sure that material could be used to up-armor hummers in Iraq. I can see that having a whole myriad of uses.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Is it unethical to not commit suicide?

Perhaps the people complaining about other people having children should put their money where their mouth is.

[Common Sense Party]

57. Good point. nt

[ZombieHorde]

83. You should make that a new poll!

[treestar]

229. No one chooses to be born

Once born, you have the right to live. We're talking about population grown attributable to ourselves.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. yes but even more unethical to force regulation on it.

[ZombieHorde]

63. Forced regulation would be creepy.

[Terry in Austin]

73. Alternative: choking in our own excess

Human population behaving very much like a yeast population, then.

Nature, the ultimate regulator...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Then how do you explain negative population growth?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. education. nt

[Terry in Austin]

87. Quantitatively

It'll have to be a huge worldwide negative rate even to make a dent.

Think it's enough, soon enough?

[DebJ]

165. Birth rates drop when societies give women better economic

opportunities (Including educational opportunities). This is the number one reason a given societies birth rate drops.

[krispos42]

199. Woman's liberation, sufferage, and equality

That's Thom Hartmann's opinion, and he makes a pretty good case for it.

[peanut2010]

61. One child is enough

In the sixties we had around 125 million people in this country and the country was worried about overpopulation and rightly so I might add.

[Common Sense Party]

65. Enough for you, perhaps.

What should be done to those who exceed one child? Anything?

[Breeze54]

153. "Don't Tase me, Bro !!"

:rofl: :P

http://www.smh.com.au.nyud.net:8090/ffximage/2007/09/19/meyer_wideweb__470x335,2.jpg

[Scout]

224. heap shame and scorn on them for their selfishness n/t

[BigDaddy44]

102. We did not

In 1968 we reached 200 million.

[Breeze54]

152. You're more than enough, that's for sure!!

'enuf said' :crazy:



Pfft!

[DailyGrind51]

67. Who the Hell will pay into Social Security?

[ZombieHorde]

71. Tax payers.

[DailyGrind51]

406. Raise the FICA cap, so "the rich" have their fair share.

[Lorien]

101. Like THAT'S our biggest concern?

[CrispyQ]

389. Bumper sticker: Six billion miracles is enough.

More like 6.7 now. :eyes:

It's ok for humans to discuss population control of other species, but never our own. That's ok. Mother Nature will take care of it for us since we refuse to do it ourselves & it will be so much more harsh.

[billyoc]

68. The more the merrier, just keep them the hell away from me.

[Common Sense Party]

70. And off your lawn.

[billyoc]

78. Well, I'm 20 floors up.

:hi:

[Evoman]

72. Carbon footpirnt usually isn't that big from many children (not early on anyways).

Less well-off people have the most kids, right? Well, they tend to live in smaller homes (three kids, 1 bathroom in my family) and consume less resources then a wealthy couple living in a MacMansion with one snottty ass kid. Even when they grow up, they will probably consume less resources than your average wealthy person.

Not that I support unrestricted population growth. As a biologist, I know very well that the end result of unrestricted population growth is huge die offs and extinction. It's true for bacteria, it's true for deer, and it's true for human beings.

[ileus]

79. Self extinction is earths only hope.

But I know the Chinese, and Indians will never go for it.

[Hydra]

85. Or the Fundies

:evilgrin:

[ZombieHorde]

86. The second coming of Gary Gygax is Earths best hope.

[Hydra]

84. I would have said 4 children max

And that those who didn't have kids or had one would balance those who went to their limit

BUT

Someone further up correctly stated that the smarter parents are, the fewer kids they have.

Given that fact, 2 kids per couple max. End of story.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. 52% Of Respondents Call It Unethical To Have More Than Two Kids?

What a bunch of extremist fundamentalist wackos. Bet ya they're too ignorant and simple minded to even realize how much like the other side, of which they rail against to such degrees, they actually are.

Unethical to have more than 2 kids. That's gotta be one of the downright most ignorant concepts I've ever seen here. Simple minded fools.

[BlueIris]

90. This website is polluted by anti-choice fascists.

And people whom, even on their good days, are thisclose to fascism, even in their so-called progressive hearts.

[eShirl]

117. relax, having an opinion is not the same as forcing it on everyone else.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

261. bullshit. just because i think somethign is unethical doesnt mean i support regulation

i do think people have a personal responsibility to each other and the planet

[Terry in Austin]

95. Whoa! Why don't you just tell us what you really think?

What a bunch of extremist fundamentalist wackos

Better yet, try making an argument -- you know, where there's something more than just slapping on a few labels?

That might even be the, um, ethical thing to do!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

106. I Calls It Like I Sees It.

I don't need to argue with a bunch of extremist wacko simple minded zealots about why they so ignorantly think that it's unethical to have more than 2 kids any more than I don't need to argue with extremist wacko simple minded zealots who think the earth is only 6000 years old. But I still can stand firm in the intellectual awareness that they are in fact extremist wacko simple minded zealots.

[eShirl]

so you're saying everyone is entitled to their own opinion?

or just you?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

121. I Haven't Said Otherwise.

I never said the ignorant extremist fundamentalist whackjob morons couldn't have an opinion. But when they give dumbass monumentally simple minded jackass opinions like that, you bet your ass that intelligent people like me are going to recognize the stupidity for what it is.

[Indenturedebtor]

137. Duggard? Is that you??? It's not a clown car you know n/t

[eShirl]

138. hey, at least you have an open mind!

:rofl:

[depakid]

140. Understanding that the earth has a limited carrying capacity

is hardly simple minded or extremist- though ironically, those who believe that everyone can ethically breed exponentially ignore the laws of science just as blatantly as any fundamentalist.

And there's no arguing at all with that.

[Terry in Austin]

198. "Intellectual awareness"

Yeah, right.

You flatter yourself, bub.

Shoo!

[ZombieHorde]

99. I think it depends on whether or not they want it regulated.

[Common Sense Party]

103. I think it depends on whether or not they are judging others.

Sounds like discrimination to me.

[ZombieHorde]

107. How so?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

112. People are judgmental. They judge.

I judge and you judge. We all judge. Tell me you've never so much as had a disapproving thought when someone whizzes by you in a honkin' big gas guzzler, or demonstrates some other kind of unsustainable behavior? Why should procreating be any different? Because human babies are speshul snowflakes from Jeezus? Please. IMO, in a world where overpopulation is rampant and the earth's resources are strained to the breaking point it is unethical for people (particularly in resource-hogging developed countries) to have more than one child. I have no desire to compel people by law to limit their families but I will say that I believe they should.

[nam78_two]

175. Excellent, sane post.nt

[Common Sense Party]

195. It's not unethical at all, but you are entitled to believe that it is.

[Scout]

228. why is it not unethical? n/t

[Common Sense Party]

250. I'd ask why it IS unethical.

Having and raising children responsible, teaching them to grow up and be productive members of society...is not unethical at all.

[Scout]

254. i asked you first ... and many posts have already pointed out why it is unethical n/t

[Common Sense Party]

105. Amazing, isn't it?

[Indenturedebtor]

133. Get your head out of the sand - no one is asking you to feel guilty if you had more

But we are destroying the planet in large part because we have too many people

Too Many People = A
Overconsumption = B

A x B = ZERO people

That's why it's unethical. It's unethical in the same way that driving a gas guzzler and pouring motor oil in the kitchen sink is unethical.

Not everyone who thinks it's unethical thinks that we should enact laws to enforce a 2 child limit, but there should at least be a public awareness movement. At the least.

Or maybe when we can no longer grow food we can just start eating each other? :shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

136. Like I Said:

Most ignorant damn concept I've ever heard on here.

Unethical. What a hoot!

My my gotta love the extremist fundamentalist ignorant wackos!!!!

[Indenturedebtor]

143. If it's so ignorant then it should be easy for you to explain your view on the matter

Please show me the error of my thinking. I'd rather be wrong than right believe me.

[latebloomer]

163. How about a cogent response

instead of name-calling?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

166. My Responses Are More Than Adequate.

The topic is one of the hands down dumbest I've ever seen on here. Sometimes, name calling isn't name calling. It's just simply accurate deduction of character.

If it's one thing I've learned here, it's that there no time greater wasted than to try and reason with extremist fundamentalist ignorant zealots with their heads up their asses. I'm not in the mood to waste time right now.

God I hate ignorant extremist wackos, though they are good for a laugh every now and again.

Unethical to have more than 2 kids. How stupid can you get?

[nam78_two]

174. I agree with you OMC

"Sometimes, name calling isn't name calling"
Obviously, when I am doing the name-calling, they are called hard-hitting, honest facts..when it is those other people doing it, of course it is reprehensible.

I agree with you OMC-I usually do. You and I are very alike I have often thought. We both hold ourselves in extremely high regard and we are both very contemptuous of other people. I think it is part of our charm. For instance, if I were to lie, that is not called lying. Because I am so awesome you see-anything I do is automatically ok (even if I offer no justification that makes sense). See, my opinions are objective facts (pardon me Objective Facts-because I say so btw) whereas other people's opinions are always stupid when they don't coincide with mine.

Rock on my dear friend-we are both so awesome. We should never stoop to argument or discussion with the kind of people who don't get how awesome we are. Such people refuse to acknowledge how our opinions are just inherently superior to those of other people. We just need to tell these people what we think-if they don't like our style fuck 'em. They don't get real debate-real debate is me telling other people my opinion and telling them they are idiots in all instances where they disagree.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

186. That Was Funny, But You're Still Wrong.

The premise is just plain dumb, and believing it to be unethical to have more than two kids is most definitely the sign of an ignorant extremist with a simple mind. Ya don't like the opinion? Oh well. But some of us are just quite simply more intelligent than others whether you like that or not. And being easily in the top 1% of intelligence on this site, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the concept in the OP is just plain ignorant. One of the dumbest premises I've ever seen here. No sarcasm or humorous advocacy you can throw at me can change that declaration.

Those prescribing to the concept are guilty of the highest form of hypocrisy and they don't even realize it. They are ignorant and extreme and closed minded as can be. Unethical to have more than two kids? The warped and twisted logic that would be behind such a retarded concept would deem EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US as unethical in a million and one different ways, when assigned to other tangents other than childbearing. For example, your very use of the computer your on would be unethical, as would the lights you likely have on.

Extremism. It is what it is.

[Common Sense Party]

196. How is it any different, I wonder...

For these people to say it's wrong/it's unethical/it's cruel/it's irresponsible to have more than 1 or 2 children...

than it is for the fundies to say:

"It's wrong/it's immoral/it's bad for society for two gay people to marry."

I'm sure the anti-procreation (recreation?) fundies will say, "That's a stupid comparison. Gay marriage does no harm whatsoever to our society or our world."

To which I will ask, what harm do MY three children do to you or to the world you live in?

[eShirl]

211. I'd say they were spot on

or you're a master of irony

[blonndee]

208. ...

:toast:

[uppityperson]

312. Excellent. Thank you. eom

[Ron Green]

361. Your responses are not adequate.

You haven't in any way explained how someone whose "ethics" include global awareness and action regarding procreation, and extension of those ethics must by definition apply to everyone in the world, is a "whacko," "extremist," "ignorant," or any of the other names you've used.

[DebJ]

167. or people who think beyond themselves and consider the needs

of society and the world/planet as a whole.

I'd like to see an answer to this question: Why in the world would anyone have more than two or three children????

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

183. Cause They Fuckin Want To.

And why they would want to is none of your damn business, when it comes right down to it.

[Fox Mulder]

91. I think it's unethical to breed ANY children.

[Lorien]

96. I do too-because it's cruel to bring more children into a world

which has nothing but an absolutely hellish future for them. I would have loved to have children, but because I seriously doubt that ANY child born today will ever see 40, it's something I can never do. More war, famine, disease, horrific crime as a daily occurrence; all that and more sit right on our horizon because no government anywhere is paying attention to what we are doing to our home.

[Common Sense Party]

100. So, those of us with children are cruel?

:wtf:

[Lorien]

104. Depends on if you really knew what was coming before you planned to

have kids. Ignorance is still bliss for many people.

[Breeze54]

109. You should know.

"Ignorance is still bliss for many people." - Lorien -

[Lorien]

124. Yep. It is isn't it Breeze54?

Spend a few hours in the environment and energy forum, then get back to me.

Oh, and this may enlighten you a bit:

http://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Societies-Choose-Fail-Succeed/dp/0143036556/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216339768&sr=8-2

Don't be pissed with me for speaking about an inconvenient truth. Be pissed at our government for doing jack shit about it.

[snappyturtle]

413. I've read your responses to this point and I agree with you. I had

two children now 32 and 30....a boy and a girl...perfect....I thought. However, watching my 'kids' today is not like re-living what their father and I experienced when we were their ages. They are struggling...college grads...no debt when they graduated. You'd think their lives would be great. It's a long story but despite long work hours, more than we ever worked, they are never going to exceed us. Frankly, we're having difficulty too...help when we can, of course but.......sometimes I feel guilty about bringing them into this world and they work so-o much and have to worry about their jobs, the stability of them, high fuel costs, etc. The sad point is that the kids think they're doing something wrong and that's why their way of living is lower. I have to give them a lot of credit for not giving up and finding pleasure in simpler ways. Fortunately, they both are environmentally conscious but both have said they will not have any children. Sad.

I don't think of having children as ethical or not ethical but I do think we need to think beyond our selfish, immediate needs to procreate and consider what the future may bring to our offspring.

[Starry Messenger]

414. I started reading that yesterday!

I love his stuff.

MPK

[Breeze54]

108. I'll bet you're mother said the same thing.

:eyes:

[Lorien]

123. I was an accident. My mother had me before Roe v. Wade. She had no choice

She probably would have had an abortion if she could have.

These days she's a born again who DOES believe that we're in the last days-but she wants Christian children to be a part of those glorious "last days" so she has no problem with the horrors still to come (which she believes mankind is bringing upon itself-and she's right about that part).

Sorry, but I still believe that it's cruel to bring children into a dying world. If we were REALLY TRYING to save life on earth I would think differently, but we're not.

[Breeze54]

149. We were all "accidents."

:hug:

Cripes!! I'm the 8th 'live' child of 12 pregnancies.

You think I was planned? :rofl:

[JANdad]

144. WOW

How do you even get out of bed in the morning????

[eShirl]

148. without blinders on, I'm guessing

[Dukkha]

162. She gets to sleep in

because there are no screaming brats in her house.

[Lorien]

200. It's difficult, because I can't do anything to stop what's happening

to our world. If I had a child I could barely sleep at night; I would be terrified for them. What are we leaving them? Not much of any future. I have friends who have grown children, and they feel that same sense of fear and hopelessness for their kids because the world won't WAKE THE FUCK UP! We're at the tipping point, if not past it already.

You can keep your head in the sand, you can kick the messenger, or you can DEMAND that our representatives make climate change and the peak oil issue a TOP PRIORITY.

[Number23]

212. Good God!

How do you even get out of bed in the morning????

I was wondering the EXACT SAME THING!

There's compassion and empathy -- and then there's just bleedin' weirdness. :crazy:

[treestar]

237. Nah, that won't work

Somebody somewhere has to have children.

[uppityperson]

93. It is unethical to breed children, yes. Wait until they are adults.

Unless you are an FLDS person. Or Taliban.

[lumberjack_jeff]

257. Best response. n/t

[defendandprotect]

98. It certainly isn't a "better" answer . . . but I think it's kinda "underinformed breeder" . . .

at some point, grand scale breeding harms the female and the family --- obviously.

But, overpopulation has been a TABOO subject post the early 1970's/?

Though it must be obvious to anyone who can read -- we're on our way to 7 BILLION!!!


Are we getting set to populate the outer universe?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

114. That's so obvious by this thread. Lotta feelings getting hurt.

It sure is a taboo subject. But hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to change the situation.

[eShirl]

219. "But hiding our heads in the sand isn't going to change the situation. "

hear, hear

[mrreowwr_kittty]

115. As a child-free person who has been rudely asked on more than one occasion why I don't have kids

I find the outrage of the parents on this thread to be quite amusing. I'd feel bad for y'all but then I remember how many times I've been called "selfish" right to my face for not procreating.

Not fun having the shoe on the other foot, is it?

[AlCzervik]

118. i have one and you would not believe the shit i have gotten because i didn't have

another one, "Why not, she'll be lonely, that's not fair". Your choice not to have kids is just that, your choice and i for one have no problem with people not having kids.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

120. I have a friend with one child who gets that crap all the time

Even worse the child is *gasp* a girl! It apparently blows peoples' puny little minds that she will not be trying for the Sacred Heir.

[treestar]

236. Studies even show that the advantages of being an only child are

greater than the supposed disadvantage of "loneliness." As if our society weren't so peer oriented, anyway. Nobody has to be "lonely" for not having siblings!

[MonteLukast]

139. "Selfish" is...

... the last, and most lasting, insult of strong-minded women.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

147. Isn't it?

To some people, it's like the worst possible crime a woman can commit, not selflessly devoting herself to others.

[MonteLukast]

154. Devotion to others...

Actually, I see so much in this country that needs to be fixed, that having a family actually seems like the MOST selfish option!

Think about it. How many parents of young children REALLY have the time, energy or money to devote outside their own families? Unless you're rich and well-established, I thought so.

Parenting takes time and energy away that we could be spending on reaching out to our communities, fixing our infrastructure, solving our housing problem, solving our education cost problem, etc. Not to mention, performing the OTHER kind of nurturing. The kind we extend to those not in our immediate circles. The kind we extend to those not like us. The poor, neglected, the disabled, the sick, the lonely senior citizen. They ALL want rich, productive, fulfilling, exciting lives. They ALL want love, understanding, and community.

But it takes time and energy to provide it! Which is too easily sapped by the demands of our careers and yes, unfortunately, our families.

I'm abstaining from making my own family so that I may have the time, energy and money to love my country better.

[DebJ]

169. Actually, procreating is the selfish choice. Especially for those

who either can't take care of their children or those who simply don't want to be bothered to try.

I think the question is, why have any children? That's what I'd be telling anyone who said that crap to me.

By the way, I am a mother of two adult children whom I love more than my own life. I have no grandchildren, and
frankly I'd be terrified for them if I were to have any, given today's world.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

172. Population issues aside, we need to move toward being a society where it's okay not to procreate

There is still so much of an expectation to have children that I think a lot of people do it without knowing why. When being voluntarily childless no longer makes people look at you like you're from Mars, more people will opt out of parenting. Which will alleviate a lot of problems, IMHO.

[CrispyQ]

394. My grandmother asked me why I even bothered to get married

if I wasn't going to have children. :eyes:

Years ago a co-worker found out I didn't have children. She gingerly asked questions trying to discover if it was because I couldn't or didn't want to. When she found out I didn't want them, she said, "I think women who don't want to have children are freaks." I think that is a more prevalent attitude than most people let on.

Another acquaintance admitted that he thought he was a better person than we are because he has children. "It makes you a better person - you aren't so selfish." Thing is, he's done a terrible job of parenting. His children are ill-behaved brats.

[Scout]

395. why do you hate America?

:sarcasm:

child free by choice here, too.

[dysfunctional press]

122. in my opinion, people are free/welcome to have as many children as they want and can afford.

beyond that, it really is nobody else's business.

btw- we're among the childless couples who help balance it all out.

[MonteLukast]

134. I think there should be a moratorium on bearing new children.

Until our middle class is healthy again.
Until all unwanted children have loving homes.
Until all our elderly are properly engaged and loved.
Until after we've established a sustainable way of life.

Of course, it's never gonna happen.

But I think people should, at the very least, think VERY hard before creating a new life. That's not just a child. That's a human being that will live to be 80-90 years old. Who will have to struggle even harder than we do just to make a living, get educated, and find real love.

The more people there are, the more competition there is. Plain and simple. Ask any high schooler trying to get into college. It's only going to get worse if we don't do some more of that hard thinking. Both from a numbers standpoint, and from a humanity standpoint. Who can really love and empathize when they're worried about their own survival?

[NC_Nurse]

135. Depends on your religion.

Or that's how it's portrayed, anyway.

[kenny blankenship]

141. But you didn't state how many would be eaten by zombies

gotta know all the parameters of the question before you can give an appropriate answer.

[ZombieHorde]

151. When I was a kid I read a book where a zombie hid a baby

in a closet and gave it food with the hope that it could have a bigger meal when the baby grew up. As the child grew, the zombie continued to decompose, making it impossible for the zombie to eat the kid. So they looked at porno mags together. The kid liked the porno mags because the porn stars looked like the kid, as opposed to the decaying zombie.

I can't remember the rest.

[Matariki]

170. wow.

i think this might be my favorite non-political post on DU. ever.

[sammythecat]

193. Well...

that's really something.

I'm gonna go get another drink now.

Nice talking to ya.

[MrSlayer]

215. Awesome concept.

Can you remember the author or title?

Of course zombies are not thinking creatures but I love the idea behind this.

[ZombieHorde]

273. "The Good Parts" by Les Daniels, from The Book of the Dead (zombie short stories)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead_(anthology)

It is in the first book.

I had to edit for plain text since the ( ) in the web address
would not link with the rest of the address. 

[DireStrike]

142. I would say option two, but modified thus:

Each additional child you breed is less ethical than the previous one.

[eShirl]

146. wow, a lot of nerves are being struck in this thread

:popcorn:

[Breeze54]

156. 69 have a lot of nerve, I agree!

:popcorn:

:hi:

[eShirl]

164. funny you should mention that number

:evilgrin:

[Number23]

213. On both sides

wow, a lot of nerves are being struck in this thread

We got the "I don't have any kids of my own, but that doesn't stop me from being an expert on parenthood and talking endlessly about child-rearing!" on one side and the "we can have as many kids as we damn well please no matter what impact it could have on the world!" on the other.

I think the poll question is weird. Alot of the comments have been weirder...

[MonteLukast]

150. "Just take a leap of faith..."

Religion constantly implores us to take that leap of faith.

Well, it's too much a leap of faith.
Anymore, in this world, it would take an incredible amount of faith to believe that my child is going to have a better life than me, that I'll be better at parenting than my parents were, that my marriage is going to be the special one that's not adversely affected.

That I'll automatically become more responsible, more leader-like, more empathetic, and happier once I become a mother.

And lastly: that I'll actually have the time and energy for anybody outside my own family and immediate social circle, after that combination of work, commuting, and children.

It all takes WAY too much faith for me to muster.

Because number one, humans are fallible; and number two, taking leaps of faith has NOT necessarily increased my happiness despite what authority religious and secular says.

[WildEyedLiberal]

161. I don't think it's really a relevant issue in a country like the United States

The vast majority of people in this country have between 1-3 children. A few have more, and a few have none. All the hand-wringing about the negative impact overpopulation has on the planet really has fuck all to do with a couple in the United States having 1,2,3, or 4 children. The world is overpopulated and overburdened because of exponential population growth in the Third World, where people routinely have 6-10 children. Some "environmentally conscious" people who decide not to have children because of the alleged impact said children will make on the world are doing absolutely zilch to stop overpopulation, because overpopulation is not an excessive problem here.

If you are all so terribly concerned about overpopulation - and you should be, because the earth IS overburdened with a couple billion more people than it can reasonably sustain - then you'd focus more on 1) educating women in the Third World, because literate, educated women fight for their rights, chief among which is the right to be something other than a broodmare popping out a dozen kids; 2) alleving poverty and the mortality rate in the Third World so that people do not feel the need to have lots of kids for economic purposes; and 3) giving people in the Third World access to reliable birth control.

The people who self-righteously bluster about how they aren't "breeders" because they CARE about the environment just make me laugh because they really do think that not adding one or two kids to the population of some suburb in California means fuck all when the populations of Africa, South America, and South Asia are expanding at an unsustainable level.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

179. One American child uses far more resources than a dozen children in the 3rd world.

WE are the ones destroying the planet. The US uses 1/4 of the world's energy and contributes more carbon to the atmosphere than any other nation, by far. I agree that poor countries need better access to contraception and family planning education, desperately. But don't pin the blame for the situation we're in on the 3rd world.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/exhibit/2008/05/kids-carbon-footprints.html

[WildEyedLiberal]

241. Are we talking about overpopulation or not?

If the OP were about saving the environment/green living, your point would be germane, but the OP specifically addresses overpopulation. The world is not overpopulated because people in the US are having kids. The environmental destruction issue is another thing entirely, however; but that's not what the OP was about.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

284. False dichotomy

The world is overpopulated AND people in developed countries are using too many resources and creating the most pollution. It's not either/or it's both/and. It's not "another thing entirely". This is an eco-system and we are interconnected.

And the OP may not have specified people in developed countries like the US, but considering that we are all reading this on computers it's safe to assume that's who it was directed at.

[MonteLukast]

188. Traffic. Commutes. McMansions. Large classes. Cutthroat college and job competition.

That's why it's a relevant issue in America. I must respectfully disagree with you.

We see economic and social consequences of overpopulation LONG before environmental consequences. Remember, corporations love population growth because it gives them license to pay people less, and still come out the good guys because they're "creating jobs". Not to mention, the continual fresh supply of vulnerable moldable minds to shape into future consumers.

Overpopulation doesn't always show itself as twenty starving kids packed into a squalid Third World shack. Sometimes it's simply a community that's less friendly because there's less room to give warmth and kindness to everybody, because there's too much of everybody.

[Dreamer Tatum]

222. So the US is overpopulated because there's traffic?

In other words, overpopulation is basically a matter of your preferences being offended. Gotcha.

Me: "Geez, this traffic is hideous. It's too bad more of us don't avail ourselves of public transportation."

You: "Geez, this traffic is hideous. Most of these people shouldn't have even BEEN BORN."

:eyes:

[MonteLukast]

244. It really all fits together.

We won't combat suburban sprawl until we make housing in the properties we've already got affordable. Then it becomes a question of economic development without "growth". Which in turn demands not only that we fundamentally alter how we conduct business, but seal the deal by making sure there are no drastic population changes to throw the system off. No more Baby Boom generations like a pig in the python. We have to think long-term sustainability... factor in a margin of error and don't go outside of it.

Years ago, when I read about ZPG, I was surprised to find that one of the effects of living in a society with steady population from generation to generation, was relatively even distribution of wealth. I'm up with that!

[Dreamer Tatum]

272. There has got to be a prominent political role for you somewhere...

...unfortunately, it's in China.

[WildEyedLiberal]

243. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the social implications

But those are symptoms of a general cultural mindset that is a separate issue from how many children people decide to have, IMO. People in the US used to have, on average, far more children than they are having now - my dad is one of nine, my grandmother one of eight. I, however, only have one sister. My sister only has two kids. I have none. The birth rate, per generation, is going down. But yet, the sense of community here is deteriorating, despite the fact that people, on average, have fewer kids than they used to. So yes, there is a serious problem with all of the things you mentioned, but I think they are more symptomatic of the evils of globalism, which is driving more and more people into urban areas (resulting in the godawful traffic, white flight into suburbs and McMansions, etc) and a slow decimation of rural America. The percentage of Americans living in rural areas has been on a strong and steady decline over the past 50 years, with terrible social consequences. The idea of belonging to a community is nearly dead in this country, and I can't help but think that's a very poor omen for the future of America.

[MonteLukast]

245. When I studied the Roman Empire years ago...

... I was struck mainly by how the Romans thought they could urbanize and modernize everything, completely ignoring where their food was going to come from. More than poor leadership, more than powerful enemies, *that's* what really brought the Empire down IMO-- you can't live without agriculture!

[MonteLukast]

402. Ugh. White flight.

Talk about something completely unnecessary. Something whose only purpose is to feed irrational needs, provide a temporary sense of comfort.

It just strikes me as not only unfair and prejudiced, but... unnecessary. Whites don't HAVE to feel or act this way. Every day we make a sacrifice to the God Of Comfortability, we sacrifice another moment of our future.

[depakid]

209. "some suburb in California"

Chances are said suburb is already well past sustainability over the next two sat its current population- and in some cases, many times what would be sustainable today, absent cheap petroleum and natural gas.

[treestar]

234. They don't use up the resources, and do it because there is a

lesser chance of their offspring surviving to adulthood.

Our population rate is not lower because we are considering the planet while they are not. That's just ridiculous to judge them on those grounds. We have fewer children because we have more assurance those we have will make it to adulthood and therefore, can afford that convenience. We have better access to contraception, too. It is solely our interest and convenience and our good fortune - not something we do because we are so considerate of the planet!

[WildEyedLiberal]

240. Did you even read my post?

You're responding to an argument I didn't make. Did you even notice that my solutions for solving overpopulation are educating people in the third world and providing them with reliable birth control? I also specifically mentioned that they do have lots of kids for economic reasons and because of the high mortality rate, so to solve overpopulation, you have to tackle those problems. Please read my entire post instead of responding to what you think I said.

[rch35]

168. hmm, child breeding is a tricky business

first of all, you have to find cages for all the children, and then finding a good combo could take weeks.

[Cleita]

173. If women around the world are allowed to have complete control over

their reproduction, the population of the world would not only stabilize, it would probably decrease. Why do I say this? Because studies have shown that in countries where women are allowed a basic education and access to birth control and reproductive information and methods, the population of those countries stabilizes with smaller families and sometimes even goes down.

[ZombieHorde]

176. I agree, education is the best solution at hand.

[nam78_two]

178. Excellent post as always

You make sense as always :hi: :pals:.

[Cleita]

194. Hi there.

:hi:

[MonteLukast]

181. Isn't that the whole subtext of what the righties say?

As a rationale for why they push policies that take women's power away.

"If we let women have completely equal rights, who would have the children?"

[opihimoimoi]

187. Yup, ya nailed it....thats one of the answers

our welfare system is ass backwards too...recipients should get less money not more for more kids..

i kid = 5x $$ for every year with 1 kid..extra 2x$

2 kids 8x $$ for every year with 2 kids ..extra 1 x $$

3 kids 10 $$

just a suggestion

[MonteLukast]

191. I wondered about that when the Child Tax Credit passed.

Is it indeed being used as an incentive to have more kids?

And don't get me started on that "having kids will prevent ovarian cancer" stuff. :eyes:

[Marrah_G]

253. The tax credit is no where near an incentive to have children

[mrreowwr_kittty]

392. Maybe not, but it's extra money going to people who don't need it.

And did nothing to deserve it. To even qualify for it, you need to have made enough income to have paid taxes, which leaves most low income families out. And families with incomes up to $150K qualify for it. That's ridiculous. I personally know people who bought jet skis with their. Jet skis. Tell me that was a purchase that was vital to the upbringing of their children. :eyes:

The tax credit was a valentine from Bill Clinton to a very large voting bloc. It was political pandering, and a very expensive form of it at that.

[eShirl]

216. I hope this is something we can all (here at DU) agree on

thank you, Cleita

[seemslikeadream]

286. Maybe we could get that offensive term banned also

[madeline_con]

177. I think the key word here is "support".

If you can feed 'em, breed 'em.

[Book Lover]

192. Since I don't live in a third-world country,

no.

[blindpig]

218. So,

it's Ok for we 1st worlders, who consume the bear's share of the worlds resources, which directly figures in the misery of the rest of the world, to have full reproductive freedom, but those "others" might be unethical for having the same?

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

[Book Lover]

259. I can't speak for anyone else but me

but in general I would say no. I understand that all humans have absolute reproductive freedom. I was asked a question, and I gave my answer along with a basis for it.

[Lorien]

201. For a little perspective

that's sure to be unpopular with a few here:

What's Your Baby's Carbon Footprint?

EXHIBIT: 8lbs, 21 inches, and 3,800 diapers worth of planet-pummeling joy

By Kiera Butler and Dave Gilson

April 28, 2008



72% of American adults have children.

60% of American children say they're more afraid of global warming than of terrorism, car crashes, or cancer.

Between 2000 and 2050, the U.S. will add 114 million kids to its population. Africa will add 1.2 billion—but their respective CO2 emissions will be the same.

One American child generates as much CO2 as 106 Haitian kids.

Zahara Jolie-Pitt will produce 45,000 lbs of CO2 yearly, compared with 221 lbs if she still lived in Ethiopia.

A typical baby goes through 3,800 disposable diapers in her first 2.5 years.

96% of American babies wear disposable diapers. In China, only 6% do. In India, 2%.

China claims its one-child policy has prevented 400 million births—saving 1.5 billion tons of CO2 in 2004 alone.

For $20, British parents can have 7 trees planted to offset the 1,430 lbs of greenhouse gases generated by their child's first 2.5 years of nappies.

Civil conflict is twice as likely to occur in countries where young adults make up more than 40% of the population.

In 2007, a Hungarian couple had 300 trees planted to offset their newborn's lifetime carbon footprint.

Twin births in the U.S. have risen 70% since 1980. In 2004, 3.2% of newborns were twins.

Uganda (50% children) has been at war for most of the last 30 years. Monaco (13%) has not been at war since 1815.

Citizens of the Russian city of Ulyanovsk get September 12 off to "conceive a patriot."

Due to its low birthrate, Singapore runs a dating program called LoveByte that promotes "the importance of marriage and family, and the need to start early."

Members of the "Quiverfull" movement believe that very large families populate "God's army."

In 2005, Pope Benedict XVI called for tax incentives for large families. Last fall, he vowed to "recreate a strong alliance between man and Earth."


http://www.motherjones.com/news/exhibit/2008/05/kids-carbon-footprints.html

[treestar]

239. Interesting stuff

Having a day off to conceive a patriot! :rofl:

That's just racist. If they need more workers, import them. Get some planes to Mexico or India or the Philippines, or Africa.

Sheesh, what morans. What is the Russian word for moran? :rofl:

[MonteLukast]

246. Mudack.

Also "mudilo", "opesdol", "zhopa", and others.

http://www.moninonet.ru/humor/rus_dic/rus_dic.htm

[treestar]

249. spaseebah

[galledgoblin]

205. women's/human rights are about choices

can it be irresponsible for someone to CHOOSE to give birth to multiple children? yes

can someone choose to give birth to multiple children and raise them to be a net benefit to society instead of just a mindless consumer of resources? I believe so, I have 5 siblings and so far we all seem to be contributors to society and improving our world.

is it unethical to FORCE women to give birth to multiple children by limiting access to birth control/abortions? emphatically, YES.

[MrSlayer]

214. Nature will take care of itself.

There will be some sort of super-plague or something of the like that will cull the herd. Actually, it's more likely that the fault will be our own. We, the human race, will kill ourselves off in record time as compared to other dominant species that have existed. Hopefully, the next form of "intelligent" life does better. We've failed.

[The Stranger]

233. Great. I can't wait.

I think the idea is to prevent all of that suffering by using our brains and planning.

And, actually, despite my reaction, I agree with what you have posted.

[treestar]

238. Nature does, in that the more prosperity there is, the lower the

birth rate, so that what we really need to do is get the Third World to be more prosperous. As for rich Western countries, most middle class people will observe a limit naturally, except for the obsessed, like that family with 17 children.

[Sheets of Easter]

220. Choice: It works both ways.

[The Stranger]

235. This is the BEST poll and one of the best posts I have ever seen here.

This is what we should be talking about.

(Also, I fucked up and voted for number two before reading all of the possible options (which were very good), which is my own fucking fault. But whatever.)

[NeedleCast]

248. Depsite the Fact that you're not going to get an real answer

using terms like "breed" or "breeder" because they are going to bias the answers of many people, I think having more than two kids is irresponsible, but not unethical.

Don't worry though, there seem to be an increasing number of selfish bastards like myself who have a strong desire to have zero.

[SidneyCarton]

251. Define "many."

More than one?
More than two?

What exactly do you consider to be an unacceptable number?

[ZombieHorde]

268. I don't know, I voted; "I am a better person now that I have voted in this poll."

[SidneyCarton]

270. Fair enough, I like your vote.

Economics seem to be a good factor in determining enough children. One should only have as many children as one can reasonably provide for. In the current environment in the United States, I don't see any reason that anyone should have more than 5 kids, and on average 2-3 is probably a sane number for a middle class family. There are obvious exceptions to this rule, and I am open to hearing all of them. I am not in favor of legislation limiting the number of children a family can have, as it has had unforseen demographic side-effects in China.

[ZombieHorde]

277. legislation limiting the number of children

That would be creepy. It seems to me that the best way to reduce population is to increase education on a global level.

[crimanimalz]

255. unethical to breed stupid children..

[The2ndWheel]

256. Is it unethical, due to overconsumption, to make products cheaper?

[loyalsister]

258. It's eugeneics

[MonteLukast]

299. So, you NEVER have somebody from the outside deciding who should breed and who shouldn't.

Rather, I'd like people themselves to choose not to breed. To realize there's more to family than making your own. To realize there are many more ways to express love and hope, and to favor the ones already here over the ones not here yet.

Above all, to THINK seven generations ahead, as the saying says.

The deal in Nazi Germany sucked just as badly, from a feminist standpoint, for the proper Aryan woman expected to have lots of children as it did for the Jewish woman condemned (and worse) for having children. Both roles took their self-determination away.

[iamthebandfanman]

265. yes, but for many other reasons

than just 'over population'

personally im gonna wait and see if the world doesnt set itself on fire before i even begin to think of bringing another life onto this planet.
why have a kid if global warming kills them by the time they are 20 ?

[Marrah_G]

274. Then again, one of those children could well come up with the solution that saves us

People have been predicting the end of the world for a long time. The world may be different when my children are my age, but it will still be here. Life will continue. Humans are very adaptable.

[Scout]

279. and one of the ones already here might be the one that saves us...

but can't because their share of the resources are being used by someone else.

[Marrah_G]

283. We have enough resources in this country

The only reason our population is not shrinking is due to immigration, both legal and illegal. The birthrate is below 1 per person. We need to manage our resources better, not stop reproducing. Otherwise, you end up with an elderly population without enough support from younger generations.

[Scout]

287. and if the one who can save us all isn't born in THIS country....

but someone in this country is using more than their share of the resources (which most of us do) then the savior can't save us, see?

[Marrah_G]

349. I wasn't speaking against immigrants.

I was making the point that we HAVE lowered our birth rate.

[Scout]

357. i wasn't talking about immigrants either n/t

[MonteLukast]

292. The situation is even worse in Europe and Japan.

I've long thought one solution would be for more Americans to move abroad. That would solve our problems and theirs in one move (with the added bonus of a better educational system for our kids).

If only those countries would get off the "racial pride" stuff. There doesn't seem to be any valid, non-emotional reason for worrying about the sanctity of race. Citizenship goes a lot farther than birth circumstances, and that is one area where we do still have the Europeans beat.

[The2ndWheel]

315. How would that solve the problems?

"I've long thought one solution would be for more Americans to move abroad. That would solve our problems and theirs in one move"

Where would people move to, Europe and Japan? Japan is an island smaller than Sweden that has over 120 million people. Europe is trying to form the EU, which would pass the US as the 3rd highest population in the world if they can pull it off.

If you really wanted to try something, get rid of all borders. Make everyone a citizen of whatever we would call a world nation. Everyone pays taxes to the same government, and votes in the same elections. Corporations already exist in a borderless world, its probably time for governments to catch up.

Sure, something like that would cause more problems than it solves, but that's usually the result of everything we do. Why not go for the whole thing?

[MonteLukast]

285. That's where we come in.

We have to take action on global warming NOW. No more waiting until our kids are the ones to come up with the proverbial "cure for cancer". Put our heads together and do it now!

[iamthebandfanman]

408. im pretty sure there are already solutions

just noone whos willing to give up the money to do it.

so unless human nature changes and people stop being so self centered and materalistic ... caring only for what THEY want and to hell with anyone else....

there will be no children coming from me.

[LanternWaste]

278. Too many different familial circumstances out there...

Far too many different familial circumstances out there in the world to allow me to feel comfortable making presumptions about the choices parents make in having children.

Were I a Solomon or a Thurgood Marshall, I might have the depth of wisdom to claim a moral imperative, but I'm just a pretty simple guy for whom questions like these are best passed off to those in the know (or, as in the case of DU-- those who simply think they're in the know). :shrug:

[MonteLukast]

294. There are so many things to do already here...

... with unwanted children and lonely, broke senior citizens and crumbling communities, that if people simply decided to "finish what was started" before moving on to new projects (so to speak), that alone would curb our birthrate significantly.

[MonteLukast]

295. There are so many things to do already here...

... with unwanted children and lonely, broke senior citizens and crumbling communities, that if people simply decided to "finish what was started" before moving on to new projects (so to speak), that alone would curb our birthrate significantly.

[seemslikeadream]

281. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST INSULTING OPs I HAVE EVER READ ON DU

NOW THAT I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT FOR AWHILE


CALLING HUMAN BEINGS BREEDERS IS OUTRAGEOUS FOR ANYONE THAT IS POSTING ON A DEMOCRATIC PROGRESSIVE WEBSITE


OR IT COULD BE THAT YOU ARE JUST SO IGNORANT THAT YOU DO NOT REALIZE WHAT THAT WORD MEANS

LOOK IT UP

[Scout]

288. get over yourself and your little outrage

could be worse ... they could have said "mouth breathing breeders"

sticks and stones, honey, sticks and stones.

[seemslikeadream]

293. This is pure bullshit I would expect this kind of name calling from RWs

[Scout]

310. no one called you a name.... you should save some of that outrage

for something really important.

If you get this upset over words from a stranger on your computer, I'd imagine your head will just explode if something to really be outraged about happens to you.

[seemslikeadream]

318. I am not going to let some one posting on a prgressive Democratic website

call mothers and fathers breeders and btw you did call me an asshole

[Scout]

323. i did NOT call you an asshole

if i have broken the rules, you should alert on the post

and it's not YOUR website, and you don't get to decide what's posted.

[seemslikeadream]

345. yes you did and it was deleted

post 313

[Scout]

359. well, saying someone is acting like an asshole is not the same as saying

"you are an asshole" (which I'm not saying now, just using a for instance.

Apparently the mods disagree. :shrug:

deleted or not, I stand by my observation.

[seemslikeadream]

363. I wonder have you ever READ your signline?

[Scout]

365. what does that have to do with anything? n/t

[seemslikeadream]

367. unbelievable

[Scout]

368. i was right, you are n/t

[seemslikeadream]

370. For many women, the only sense of power, respect, and accomplishment they ever get comes through mal

let's start with this



For many women, the only sense of power, respect, and accomplishment they ever get comes through male approval


MALE APPROVAL, AS IN CALLING WOMEN BREEDERS?

[Scout]

371. so what's your point? i'm well aware of what my sig line says. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

372. I just made an edit to my post

[Scout]

377. and it's still stupid

the last thing i ever do on this board or anywhere else is "seek male approval" ... especially not by squeezing out their crotch droppings.

[seemslikeadream]

At least NOW I know where you are coming from

[Scout]

374. oh for god's sake

you are too far gone to even bother with anymore.

[seemslikeadream]

376. So are you a breeder? Or are you a breedie?

I have a feeling neither

[mrreowwr_kittty]

393. Uh, no, I call men breeders too.

Parent = breeder

[ZombieHorde]

334. " I am not going to let some one...call mothers and fathers breeders"

I don't believe that I called anyone a breeder on this board. Though I have in real life. My wife thinks that it is really funny.

[seemslikeadream]

346. yes you did

[ZombieHorde]

360. Is it because I used the word "breed"? Does that mean I called all parents here "breeders"?

If I say that we have all lost something in our lives, am I calling everyone a loser?

(I had a roommate that would call me a loser whenever I lost something.)

[seemslikeadream]

369. Let's revisit your OP

ZombieHorde (1000+ posts) Thu Jul-17-08 04:19 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is it unethical, due to over population, to breed many children.
Poll result (249 votes)
No, It is not unethical to breed many children. (51 votes, 20%) Vote
Yes, it is unethical to breed more than two children. (131 votes, 53%) Vote
Yes, it is unethical to breed more than one child. (17 votes, 7%) Vote
Yes, it is unethical to breed, people should adopt. (15 votes, 6%) Vote
I am a better person now that I have voted in this poll. (9 votes, 4%) Vote
Some other answer, which is much better than the ones provided.

[ZombieHorde]

375. I see it, but I don't understand. Is it because I used the word "breed" instead of "procreate"?

I agree that "procreate" would be a better word, but not nearly as funny.

[seemslikeadream]

378. funny to someone as Neanderthal as you

Procreate would have been the correct choice but I guess you enjoy calling people names, no account for what some people find entertaining

[ZombieHorde]

382. Neanderthal - Leave my ancestors out of this!

enjoy calling people names

I suggested that Humans breed, bwahahahaha! Wait until phase two, where I suggest that Humans sleep. It will be just like calling everyone a sleeper!

No account for what some people find offensive.

[seemslikeadream]

383. Too bad they didn't have your intellect and stopped breeding

[ZombieHorde]

384. I know, those bastards could have saved the world from those who suggest that people breed.

[seemslikeadream]

385. I always find it interesting when people are posting to look closely at their signline

Reading your's I would have thought you would be more gracious in allowing criticism of your choice of words, I don't like to hold on to anger, I figure you, of all people would understand that!



Your favorite candidate is delicious. ------- Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

[ZombieHorde]

386. I am not angry. There were even times I thought you were playing a prank on me.

Someone told me that procreate would have been a better choice and I agreed. I did not like "have" because I wanted to make sure everyone knew that the poll was not about adoption.

I did not mean to offend anyone with the word "breed", it did not even occur to me that it would be offensive. I was more concerned that the poll as a whole would offend people, and some people were offended. The "yes" votes in the poll are sort of calling some peoples families unethical, which is harsh. Homosexuals with children get this all of the time. I personally voted #5, because I don't know the answer.

As for my sig, it is a personal reminder to myself when dealing with certain members of my extended family. I do get angry, but I don't like that about myself.

[seemslikeadream]

387. You know what I think it might be?

I was born and raise in farm country and that word breed was only used in reference to farm animals. This all may very well be a misunderstanding. I really don't think of my parents and children and grandchildren as farm animals.


And the anger I was talking about was mine, I thought you would be a little more accepting of it

[ZombieHorde]

390. breed was only used in reference to farm animals

Though I live in Montana, I spent much of my childhood in my bedroom. I am nerdy and I have an immature sense of humor. My friends tell me that I was very lucky to find a woman (my beautiful wife) who has a similar sense of humor and nerdy tastes.

And the anger I was talking about was mine, I thought you would be a little more accepting of it

I like the words of Buddha because I feel that they could help me, not because I naturally emulate them. I have a ton of work to do.

[seemslikeadream]

388. Could we leave breeding to these guys?

[ZombieHorde]

391. Now I know where toasters come from.

[ZombieHorde]

297. The OP does not contain the word "breeder".

You are offended by your own imagination. Which is pretty interesting if you think about it.

[seemslikeadream]

300. to breed many children.

like cattle right?

[ZombieHorde]

306. I don't know much about cattle, I don't know how many children they general have.

Does it bother you to be compared to non-Human animals?

[seemslikeadream]

308. Go ask your mother

[seemslikeadream]

301. Is that how your mother feels about you?

A farm animal

One of her litters

[MonteLukast]

303. Create from your mind and heart, THEN from your womb.

That's the slogan I'd use if I had any real influence about this.

[ZombieHorde]

309. Probably not, but I have never asked her.

[seemslikeadream]

311. Maybe you should ask her if she intended to have you when she and your dad were breeding

[ZombieHorde]

325. That is a sore subject for her because I came after a really bad miscarriage.

I don't know much about it other than the fact that it makes her sad.

[MonteLukast]

302. Just goes to show you.

Procreating and childrearing is visceral, emotional and often irrational. And as such, needs to involve more thinking and less "going with your gut."

[uppityperson]

304. I took it this way...It is unethical to breed children, yes. Wait until they are adults.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3636170&mesg_id=3636676

[seemslikeadream]

305. Please ask YOUR mother and father what term they would use to describe your being

and get back to us

Why do I have the feeling they will say one of the litter or maybe one of the herd, a flock, a drove?

[Name removed]

313. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

316. Because I am telling the truth about the OP?

If he is just a farm animal why can't he admit it?

[Scout]

320. no, because you are acting like an asshole n/t

[seemslikeadream]

347. Where you born "like" an asshole or have you been working on it all your life?

[Scout]

362. are you always this childish? n/t

[seemslikeadream]

366. well sometimes when you're dealing with childish people

shit happens

[ZombieHorde]

321. I think that asking her would go something like this...

Me: Hi mom! Hey, how would you describe my being?

Mom: What?

Me: How would you describe my being?

Mom: What are you talking about?

Me: What word you use to describe my being?

Mom: What is going on?

Me: I was posting on a forum and I used the word breed to refer to people procreating. Someone got deeply offended and they wanted me to ask you about it.

Mom: Are you serious?


My father is an occultist college professor smart ass and would probable give a funny answer.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

327. For fuck's sake get over yourself!

For practically the first time in your life people aren't falling over themselves to kiss your ass because you procreated and you're coming unglued about it. Pffft. As a single and childless-by-choice woman nearing age 40, I have not one iota of sympathy for you right now. Out in the real world you receive about as much respect and social opprobrium as any woman can expect to get. I, on the other hand, am regarded as a freakish oddity and an object of pity and/or derision in most social situations.

[seemslikeadream]

351. projection much?

you really have a chip on your shoulder don't you?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

379. Defensive much?

Obviously the "breeder" thing has struck a nerve with you. Good. As for me, while I find people's rude assumptions about me and my life irritating, I'm happy with the choices I've made. I know too many people who followed the marriage-and-procreation script and regretted it. Who suffers for it? The children.

It's time to examine the endless propaganda people are fed, both from corporations and RW reactionaries, about having kids. "Children make your life complete" "You're not truly a grown up until you have a child" "You're not a REAL woman until you are a mother" "Having a child makes you a better person" "It's your duty to produce offspring for the future workforce" "Kids will take care of you when you're old" None of those things are universally true, in fact many of those ideas are demonstrably false. It's time to move beyond those dishonest and oppressive myths and allow individuals the space to really consider whether parenthood is the right thing for them.

[seemslikeadream]

381. but you are not too happy with the choices others make for themselves

[LWolf]

380. I'm my mother's only child.

She is her mother's only child.

I can't speak for the fathers, since neither of them stuck around to raise their child, and one of them was never even named.

Still, my line has practiced zero population growth.

I have 2 grown sons. One has declared that he will not have any children, and the other has...one child, and does not want to raise any more.

I would never seek to make anyone guilty for people they've already born. I AM pro-life, for the already born.

I would like it if people who really don't like spending their lives with kids abstained, and if those who want children would limit themselves.

When my youngest son was 3, I had a scare. I thought I was pregnant again. I wasn't, but I convinced my then husband to get a vasectomy, to make sure the scare never became a reality. One of his friends asked, "But what happens if you two divorce, and he wants to start another family?"

I replied, "He already has two sons. There is nothing wrong with them. They don't need to be replaced with others; they will always be his sons."

And they were, until his death 7 years ago. We did divorce, though. When we'd been separated for a year and the divorce proceedings were underway, I went to a doctor to get my tubes tied. I was 28. He argued with me, telling me that I was too young, I'd change my mind, I'd meet someone who wanted a family. I gave him that same reply: "I have 2 great kids. They are good enough for me. I'm not having more. Anyone who is interested in a relationship with me needs to know that up front. Those who are looking to have babies need to look elsewhere, because I'm not raising any more."

I never, for a moment, regretted that.

Reproduction is a hot-button topic. As a woman who fully supports the right to terminate an unwanted, or a problematic, pregnancy, I've lived the concept of "choice." I support "choice," up to a point.

When the choice is to overpopulate, to harm the species, other species, the planet, I draw the line. I'd rather offer incentives to limit reproduction than mandates. If people don't reach the point that they voluntarily limit themselves, though, I believe we'll eventually reach the point that it will be to mandate reproduction or drive us into extinction.

Meanwhile, I'd turn the current tax structure upside down. I'd offer the biggest tax credits to the childless, a smaller tax credit to those with only one child, no credit and no extra tax to those with two, and a per-head carbon tax for every child after the 2nd.

Not popular, I know. Shocking. But, in my eyes, better than something like China's one child law.

[helderheid]

307. Other. It's unethical for stupid assholes to breed.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

326. whooohooo...

according to 67% of the people responding I am unethical!!! awesome!

sP

[ZombieHorde]

328. Bwahahahaha! It almost makes me wish I had one more kid. (I have 2)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

332. well, having experience in that arena...

you may want to reconsider that wish ;-) three is tough (all mine are under six)...but if you need help on the third one, my wife and i figured out what causes them! and of course there is NO MORE OF THAT!!!

sP :-)

[ZombieHorde]

338. Two is enough for us, we don't like to be outnumbered.

i figured out what causes them!

Not shooting the stork.

[seemslikeadream]

353. Will they carry on the tradition of being breeders?

To use your terminology

[ZombieHorde]

356. I think that my daugther will, she seems a little boy crazy.

I am not so sure about my son yet. He seems like he could go either way, or maybe both.

[fight4my3sons]

330. I really don't like the term 'breed' , but anyway

some people only planned on having two children and ended up with twins the second time around. They are identical and a complete fluke of nature according to the doctors. :shrug: We are blessed to have them. :loveya: However, I do get a lot of 'are they all yours?' 'glad they are not mine' kind of comments when we are out. I didn't think three was an awful lot of kids to have.

[Midlodemocrat]

331. I have three. Would have had more if I started earlier.

Love kids and am able to provide for them.

It's no one's business how many children I have. No one's.

OT - what did you end up doing for your friend who lost her little boy? Just curious.

[fight4my3sons]

336. Hi Midlo!

A group of us (we are all in a moms of twins group) chipped in and purchased a star in honor of him.

I am keeping that link you gave me though because those are too beautiful to not give someone. I may get them for the boy's mother anyway just from me. I have to tuck a few dollars away every week though.

[Midlodemocrat]

341. A Star! What a wonderful idea!

I love my rosaries. Karen does a wonderful job with them. They are beautiful.

OT again, one of my neighbors has a child who is fighting brain cancer. On her caring bridge site, she posted about a little girl who had lost her battle last weekend.

If you're in the mood for a good cry, check it out. caringbridge.org/littleshelbi.

:cry:

[fight4my3sons]

344. I looked at her page.

The part about the dogs.

:cry:

[Midlodemocrat]

348. I know. Wasn't that incredible?

Piggy backed on a book by Dean Koontz I just finished.

The Darkest Evening of the Year. Same kind of dog story.

What also got me was that the scratch was gone and the part of her head which was swollen wasn't. :wow: I am a person of faith, so I completely believe all this.

[fight4my3sons]

355. I believe it too.

and I'm not a person of faith. :hug: I can't imagine what these families go through.

[ZombieHorde]

342. ...ended up with twins the second time around...

Very true. It seems hard to call that unethical.

[fight4my3sons]

352. I hate to say it, but

if the twins had been first that would have been it. I do love all of my kids, but we never planned on three. Of course now we could never imagine it any other way.

[ZombieHorde]

354. If my second child turned out to be my second and third child, I would feel the same exact way.

[fight4my3sons]

358. thank you

I feel guilty for saying/typing that, but three can be overwhelming at times and guess they will be for years to come (they are four and five/almost 6 right now).

[ZombieHorde]

373. I would probably feel guilty as well, but kids can be overwhelming.

If raising kids was easy, we would rarely talk about it.

[Political Heretic]

340. There is a difference between unethical and irresponsible.

I think we should be careful throwing the word "unethical" around. There are a huge array of contextual factors to consider before making this sort of sweeping judgment. Especially when it comes to the love and joy that may be a factor in the desire to raise and nurture another human life, we need to be careful. Not all conditions are equal.

What's more, I think that using the term "unethical" (i.e. morally wrong) is a bit hard to defend. And more importantly, even if you try to defend it, it isn't useful. Telling someone they are "unethical" for having more children is an immediate conversation stopper. There natural and understandable reaction would be to tell you to fuck off.

However, the question, is it irresponsible - seems to be more appropriate. And the question of responsibility would seem to allow room to take context into account. In many cases, perhaps the answer would be yes, it is irresponsible. In some cases, the answer may be no, that the needs/gains outweight the negatives in a specific case.

Overall, I think irresponsible is a much better term than "unethical." No, I'm not ready to say having more than two kids is a universal moral wrong. And I'm extremely uncomfortable with the notion that somehow its our place to make the determination of responsibility.

[ZombieHorde]

350. Overall, I agree with your post.

Though I used the word "unethical" intentionally. A friend of mine believes that it is unethical to have more than one biological child. I was curious as to how popular his view is.

[mopinko]

396. it is unethical to tell people what their family should be.

you can try, but you are messing with the most primal force in nature. it will not work. it is also not your business, and most especially not the governments business.

[ZombieHorde]

397. I am not trying to tell anyone anything with this poll.

I voted "better person" because I don't know the answer.

[Mike L]

398. It's unethical for people in 3rd world countries to have more kids than they can feed.

It's unethical for anyone to have a child he/she doesn't support.

Other than that, it's OK.

[ZombieHorde]

400. People will never stop fucking, and they have no birth control.

[noamnety]

411. This ignores exploitation as a factor.

Who is more at fault?

A person in a developing country who has a child they can't feed?

Or a person in the US who has a child they can feed because invested in the companies that created those conditions in the developing country?

-------------
Who is more at fault?

A poor black woman in the US having a child she can't support?

Or a rich white woman who has a child she can support due to assets and privileges attained through slave labor and oppression?

[flvegan]

399. This thread is unethical, due to the abuse of bandwidth used to make it.

[ZombieHorde]

401. Bwahahahaha!

[Nikia]

404. I don't think that it is unethical

To have as many children as the couple can financially and emotionally support. All Americans should strive to look at ways to be more environmentally friendly and to pass on these values to their children. Many families that have more than a couple children are better about their resource use than families with one or no children on a per person basis. Some families with multiple children do a good job using their family environment to teach about cooperation and sharing. I don't think that these families are doing anything unethical if they are freely choosing this if their children are happy, healthy, and community/environmentally minded.
As others have said, many people in prosperous countries are choosing to reproduce at a rate under replacement level. Many, in third world countries, would choose that too if they had access to birth control, could be reasonably certain that their chidlren would reach adulthood, and would have a means of support in old age even if they did not have children to support them. This isn't necessarily out of overpopulation concerned but the realization that having many children and raising them responsibly requires a lot of effort on behalf of the parents.

[Gregorian]

405. Ask the planet.

Since humans seem to have not progressed beyond animals. There was a time when breeding was fine. It's not the case now that we are no longer living off the land. Look around. Can't people see the damage that has been done already. Instincts have overridden any sense of responsibility. It's ironic that some of the same people who think it's wrong to limit the number of kids people have are also the same ones who are upset about suv's.

In a modern society, just about everything we do is unnatural. We're killing the planet. And China and India are just starting. We don't have the luxury to continue down the road of more humans and the severe impact their modern living is having on this planet.

I see this as being parallel to how the Bush administration operates. Some people think it's just fine. In other words, they don't know the truth about what is happening. The administration is in this for themselves. And that's exactly what is going on with the world's breeding pattern. Women want to nest, and men want to spread their seed. It's selfish, given the circumstances. It's beyond time to learn how to be responsible. The only thing that's at stake is the planet that keeps you alive.

[timtom]

412. While I didn't vote in the poll

We planned on having two children. And we did. And a third one slipped in. I then had a vasectomy.

As with everything, moderation should be the guiding principle.