City people (and our friends), what do you think of this idea?

[EFerrari]

I have convinced my small grocer friend across the street to stock food, real food, and it's been a huge hassle for him because it's hard for him (at his volume) to get stuff like organic or vegetarian or even no corn syrup stuff delivered.

We're up to canned side dishes and frozen entrees that will not give you a heart attack. Also, he's put in cold drinks that are real juice or some combo of water and juice. Getting produce is harder and we're still working on that.

But, it helps people in the neighborhood with limited mobility of all kinds, from retirees to people in wheelchairs.

My idea was that maybe San Francisco could consider giving a tax break to Mom N Pop stores (under a certain number of square feet or yearly volume) who actively work to stock food that is healthy.

I wanted to run this by you before contacting the Board of Supes as I don't know much about retail. But, you'd think the grocer could work to score on a rating of several categories like, 1) Healthy entrees and sides, 2) Produce, 3) Cold drinks, 4) Recyclable packaging. If they made a minimum rating, they could be inspected every 6 months or something to maintain their tax break.

Or, is there a better way to motivate healthy stocking?

[EFerrari]

1. I'm going to kick this a coupla times before I write the letter.

A lot of city people don't have access to big box stores but rely on these small grocers for their daily diet.

[givemebackmycountry]

2. I love that idea -

Screw giving tax breaks to major mega-grocery chains that sell processed crap, and aisle after aisle of garbage.
It'll never happen, but it's an idea that I could certainly get behind.

(edited to add kicked and all that good stuff!)

[EFerrari]

3. It could happen here. I just wanted to ask for contrary views

about tax breaks or anything I haven't thought of before I try to contact our great progressive Supervisors.

:)

[proud patriot]

4. I'm in suberbia but I'll kick this

[EFerrari]

5. Do you see a problem? Retail is the one thing I've never done.

lol

There are a lot of people who can manage a trip to a neighborhood store that never see a Safeway.

And, this may be a secret but, a lot of these small stores extend credit in their neighborhoods.

So.

[Mopar151]

32. Go!

I've wondered, lately, if a global application of the same principle would work...Basically, redefining success in business by changing the way we measure it. Not free Bubble-Up, but things like major tax consequences for explotitative labor practices....

In your case, I think that you are on to something - Mom'nPops get squeezed from every direction, and a good neighborhood store is a real quality-of-life issue. I bought my house in large part due to the Country Store down the street - fishhooks, electrical tape, a Boston Globe, and a hot breakfast sandwich at 6AM Sunday.
Fresh-made sandwiches are a big draw for the small stores here - they seem to be a good synergy with a small deli case - and a nice turkey and swiss will treat ya a lot better than another greaseburger!

[mopinko]

6. sent it to my alderman.

you are right on about this issue. i sent the following to my alderman, with a link and this note-

joe,
i am sending this along to you from a discussion board that i frequent. the poster is a good friend from san francisco. i think this is an issue that certainly exists in roger park. not sure if my friend's idea is the way to address the issue, but it sure seems like a place to start.


but this is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed. this is such an issue in chicago, and i am sure doubly so in new york. it would be great to find a way to reward the folks who do this right, because the market is sure the hell against them.

[EFerrari]

8. Wow. Thank you so much.

I think this can work, Mo.

:hi:

[mopinko]

11. i will be sure to let you know.

if anyone in chicago would take this up, it is my alderman.

[mopinko]

37. i got a reply

saying that it was an interesting idea, and thanked me for sending it. he is very green. he has a group that is working on greening the ward. they have done things like pass out reusable bags at little grocery stores, which have not jumped on that idea as quickly at the bug guys. that was a success, as they have seen the folks like them, and they promise to carry them.
maybe someone will come up with a way to further this, but this is one reason why there is a tax on soda pop here.

[EFerrari]

48. Better diets mean lower costs in city emergency calls and so on.

And check this out, I think this is a federally funded coupon progam for women, children, infants and they may be able to interact with a healthy corner store:

http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=31907

[ColbertWatcher]

7. Out here in the big valley of the big city (LA)...

...there is a grocery store called "Vallarta" that caters to the Latin American population, and sells the best produce--hands down.

Also, I haven't seen anything untoward about the corporation, but there is a company called "Amy's Kitchen" that sells some really good frozen organic dinners.

http://www.amyskitchen.com/products/index.php

[EFerrari]

10. I got my buddy to stock Amy's but there's so many other small things

that can be done. (Let alone, that his Amy's suppliers blow him off sometimes. If he has a break, then the Amy's guys know they have a sure thing and maybe won't blow him off . . .)

We don't get produce easily out here. But, if you knew that your tax break depended on it . . . maybe you'd be motivated to find a way to stock even long lasting things like apples, potatoes, garlic, carrots . . .

:)

[ColbertWatcher]

18. I don't suppose there's a community garden nearby, would there? n/t

[EFerrari]

21. I've looked all around this place and there's no lot for a garden.

But that just means I haven't found one yet. :)

[ColbertWatcher]

23. Heh, heh.

If there comes a chance for a new grocery store to open, may I suggest contacting Vallarta.

The farthest north they've gone (from what I can see) is Palmdale, so it's not likely. But, there might be a similar type of store up there, maybe you can find one?

When all else fails, are there any farmers' markets?

[EFerrari]

28. There's one big one in the tourist district

but that doesn't really help the 'hoods right now.

[ColbertWatcher]

31. Sorry to hear that. I don't know what else to say. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

51. The lack of a farmer's market in your hood is one of the strong points in favor of this idea.

There are other markets besides the big one in tourism central (Alemany comes to mind, and the smaller seasonal ones at UCSF and Kaiser) but your neighborhood isn't convenient to any of them, whereas there are many Mom & Pop shops.

There's a public/private partnership on food systems in the city -- may be worth checking out this website and/or following up with a phone call. Maybe your supe could pitch the idea with them:
http://www.sffoodsystems.org/

[EFerrari]

52. Thanks -- that's just what I'm looking for.

I don't want to get lost in the bureaucracy but do want to find out what is already in place.

And I used to live in Glen Park -- went to the Alemany Farmer's Market when it became an antiques flea market. It was the highlight of our week, lol.

We need one out on Ocean Beach. There's plenty of space, too. Ocean Beach is underdeveloped which is a nice thing, in a way, but we could correct a little and still be fine. :hi:

[Gormy Cuss]

54. Ocean Beach would be a terrific location

--free refrigeration year round.:D
Seriously, position an Ocean Beach farmer's market within a few blocks of the Geary bus or the N-Judah and it would probably be a hit.

[Irishonly]

61. Farmer's Markets

I live inland and there's a farmer's market almost every day of the week so most of my produce is bought locally. A small market I shop at also contracts with more local farmers and has signs for what it locally grown. The eggs they sell are local and organic. I've no clue how they did it but the market has been in existence for years.

[libnnc]

26. Amy's Kitchen is the shizzle

I love the frozen burritos and the soups are outstanding.

I've not run into a product of theirs that I didn't care for. It's pricey but sometimes I can get stuff on sale here at our local Harris Teeter.

[EFerrari]

67. It's real food! I love their soups and their chili isn't bad at all.

:)

[MountainLaurel]

9. Sounds terrific

We try to walk or bike to as many places as possible, but groceries are the one place we're lacking. There's one sort of convenience store down the street, but it's more the sort to stock 50 types of dried, salted meat than produce.

And the tax break idea is the one way such an idea would appeal to the Repuke side of the aisle.

[EFerrari]

13. It's hard to carry groceries if you don't have bus fare or if

you can't walk the distance or if you are disabled or if you can't manage it with kids on your arm.

In this town, we have many of these little stores where people buy, in addition to liquor or cigs, a lot of their meals.

And that means prepared, salted, sugared stuff. I wonder how much that diet is costing the country in health care. Let alone, in quality of life. A lot of these stores never see a green thing. And, they have no incentive to look.

We might be able to make a difference, just right here. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. My neighbor who is running for state rep

says he wants to propose eliminating the sales tax on food in Kansas. He has data showing it saves tons for individual families but doesn't cost the state much at all.

[EFerrari]

49. He's right. We don't tax food here, thank goodness.

Sales tax on food is crazy. :crazy:

[dysfunctional press]

14. in chicago there are plenty of fresh vegetable/fruit stores to be found

the stores are generally small supermarkets, with limited boxed items, but HUGH produce sections...and many have a butcher's counter as well.

the more ethnic neigborhoods are generally where they are found- be it hispanic, korean, polish, jewish, what have ya...

a lot of times the produce may not be as pretty as at the chain stores- but it's better priced and just as nutritious.

[1]

15. fantastic idea, but on small scales its hard to implement...

i make my income selling vegetables at farmer's markets. and the only reason i can make a profit is that there are no regulations on what i do. no inspections, no testing, no usda... no cost to me aside from growing food.

before anyone gets in a tizzy about that statement, the reason my current structure even exists and allows me to live is that it is based on trust. the people that i deal with are local, and after years of dealings, trust me. they know that i am organic and that the produce i grow and sell will not kill them, but will benefit them and enrich their lives.

this is not small scale. it is tiny scale. i sell on the crossroads of the smallest towns of missouri. and its not poverty wages. the folks from the nearest big city will pay three times city prices for my tomatoes because my tomatoes look like tomatoes and "smell" like tomatoes (THAT! is how you know a tomato) and TASTE like tomatoes.

once you try to upscale this to a grocery store (that is the "small scales"), then all sorts of rules and regulations and payments come into play. permits, licenses, inspections, testing. i know you don't think those exist anymore because of the recent e. coli scares but they do. they exist.

and if i had to pay them i would be out of business.


i love your idea. the problem is the issue of trust. people can trust me because they can look me in the eye and know that i will sell them this particular tomato knowing that it will be the best fucking tomato they have every eaten in their life. and they will be back again next week to get some more. i'm like a tomato hooker.


i have no idea about how to advance this idea beyond my face to face, trust dealings that i do now.

once it becomes faceless, it loses all trust.




if you can accomplish this, please share. it alludes me. and like you i think its important...

[EFerrari]

16. Well, that's what we have to work out.

And working it out is worth a lot to our neighbors and to our local supplies like yourself!

Let's see how well we can do. :)

[1]

17. let me know if there is anything i can do...

i love your idea.

local growers are your friends. approach your officials (i live in a town of 600. i think our only official is that guy that owns a suit.)

:)

[1]

22. here is a small town idea. i don't know if it works in the big city...

how about your small market does not change a thing about how they do business. how about your small market "sponsor" a farmers market on a saturday or sunday on a lot close to their business.

in some vacant lot close to the store. volunteers clear an abandoned lot (i guess you might have to get permission for that, but what city official would have a problem clearing an anbandoned city lot?) and the week before invite local growers into the lot to sell their produce.

if you advertise this well advanced enough all of them folks with extra tomatoes or eggs (madone, the most wonderful chickens lay eggs that will never be eaten) will get involved.



and when the local vendors grab a foothold in your local "farmer's market" maybe some of them could move inside your "small market" at some point.


or not. hell, a farmer's market is in itself so much fun and so rewarding for all.



but i don't know. i'm small town. i don't know what people in sf like or do.


we like fun out here. we do all sorts of crazy shit. we fail often. but we smile a lot...

[EFerrari]

29. We'd have to find a lot that the developing vultures don't have yet.

But, there is a park nearby and we could, might, maybe get the city to give a permit for, say,
Saturday mornings for a farmer's market. :)

[1]

30. a park sounds fantastic!. again, i don't know cities. what we do here is...

small coffee shops. diners, not espresso joints. everybody here has gardens. i know californians have gardens. post a small flier. "got some extra tomatoes? an egg or two? come on down to xxx park this saturday..."

you might not even need a permit. ignore the laws. some times these movements are "organic" and just happen. that sounds so fucking san francisco to me.

like i should be wearing a flower in my hair...



wow. i wish i was there with you. i like what you are thinking and i would like to make this happen with you...





and if you do a flyer, do it like a "jimmy hendrix", or "janis joplin" kind of sixties "hippie" thing...



but replace that microphone with an ear of corn or a banana or some such...

[EFerrari]

40. That's a funny idea. I like it! n/t

[SpookyCat]

57. Awesome idea sfexpat...

I'm in the Richmond so I have a fair amount of good food a few short blocks away. But when I lived for years in the TL, not so much.

The farmers market there really saved my bacon, so to speak...

I toyed with the idea for a while of getting some sort of shuttle service from like the TL and Hayes Valley, Bayview etc...to go to farmers markets and back. Couldn't get it going (no money at that time...) but I like any idea that brings fresh food to poor/distant neighboorhoods.

BTW...I don't know if it's still there, but there used to be a Community Foods out in the Sunset, IIRC.

Anyway I"m local here and would love to help in any way I can. Oh, I'll post that to the OP as well....

Edit to add:

Ok, I'm all out of it from Sudafed, and just realized you ARE the OP! <duh!> :crazy:

So to reiterate...any way I can help, let me know. I'm not wealthy, but I could provide some seed money, no pun intended, and energy whatever...if the idea gets off the drawing board...

[EFerrari]

58. Hi there! I started calling city numbers today but stopped when

the phone menus tried to eat me, lol.

Instead, I'm surfing and putting info together so when I finally talk to my supe and to the supes I know a little, it will be clear and make more sense.

There's a ton of produce 20 blocks up the hill on Irving street but many of my neighbors don't do twenty blocks. Maybe some of those vendors could be coaxed down here a couple of times a month?

:)

[SpookyCat]

63. If it can be to their advantage, they will.

I know next to diddely about business, but I think I can safely say this...if a retailer can make money, and/or improve their "brand" they will do it even if it costs them initially. I think if you can spin it to them like that, that doing so will make them look good and then bring in business, it could work.

My company does all KINDS of good things for the community, and I mean really good things, Head Start, SF Food Bank, etc. And let's face it, part of this is PR. No money making business does things entirely from the goodness of their hearts, I dont' think.


But if the end result is peoeple get help, then it's worth it regarless of alterier motives.

I'm babbling, but I guess what I mean is I think if you play this right and there looks to be genuine interest in the people getting a market, it could be argued pursuasivley to the shops.

What park are you thinking of? If it's near me I'd be happy to do some of the foot work for you. Feel free to PM me.

Actually, I could present the idea to my company and see what sorts of programs I could tap into if any for community improvment. Hmmmm...interesting...this could really be cool...

[Irishonly]

19. Nothing but praise for your idea

I think it sounds great.

[EFerrari]

20. Hi there, Irishonly.

:)

I just wonder how practical it really is -- in our municipalities.

It seems good to me but maybe someone who has first hand experience can weigh in.

[Ellipsis]

24. Why not hook em up with these guys?

http://www.localharvest.org/farms/M13517

...or some other group from local harvest.

[EFerrari]

27. I'll check it out. Thanks so much.

:hi:

[zanne]

25. Sounds like that Seinfeld episode with Babu opening a Pakistani restaurant.

You're a BAD man. A very, very BAD man!

[hootinholler]

33. Beth, That is a great idea...

If you can get them to consider tax breaks to wholesalers who will deliver organic produce also it would help too.

It seems there's more a problem of availability than willingness to stock.

-Hoot

[EFerrari]

44. It doesn't seem to be very attractive to suppliers to make such small

sales. So, some incentive for healthy wholesalers may be needed, too.

[Starry Messenger]

34. Did you see that they are starting to do this in Oakland?

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/news/rethinking_the_corner_store/Content?oid=772554

I thought this was a neat article. Maybe there will be some ideas in there that might help.

MPK

[EFerrari]

38. No, I didn't know that. Great. Thanks for the link!

[KharmaTrain]

35. Some Areas Already Have It

In the 80's they were called "Enterprise Zones"...one of the few good things to come out of the Raygun years that offered tax breaks to small businesses in inner city areas. Unfortunatly this law got abused as large corporations came in and bought up these areas, gentrified them and made a fortune.

The first step may be to contact someone in the mayor's office...find a policy wonk who can explain to you how this could happen and who you'd need to go through, over or around.

A great idea...hope you're able to get some ears to pay attention.

[EFerrari]

39. Did you see the thread yesterday where huge chains

took out loans at the SBA? They're still at it!

But, you bring up a good point. I'm going to call the permit guys and ask what is already on the books in this regard, if anything. It's easier to build on what is already there, right? :)

[KharmaTrain]

42. Yeppers...

I've seen these games for a long time. When I ran my business and was starting up, I looked into an SBA loan and got turned off by the mountains of paperwork and how intrusive it got, but I figured that was the price you pay for a good rate. The other options was to find alternative funding...and you'd be surprised how many philanthropic and entrepeneur networks you can run into...many looking for a good investment with far less strings on how to get the money, but more on what you do with it once you get it. I opted to digging into my savings (which weren't much at the time) and bet the ranch on my own luck and skills. I figure it took longer that way and we went without a lot of things for years, but in the end it was rewarding both financially and, most importantly, in taking an idea from a dream into making it a living, breathing reality.

Definitely make the call, you may be surprised with what you learn...or ask for referals on who they'd talk to if they were you. It might be that there is grant money out there...far nicer to get your hands on than having to deal with a loan officer.

Good luck and keep me posted on how you do...and I know you always do good things.

:toast:

[HamdenRice]

36. New York City is doing this

I don't have references or links right now, but I believe the city government has provided incentives to inner city convenience stores (in local slang, we call them "bodegas") to provide fresh vegetables.

[stimbox]

41. You should talk to the owners of Big Apple on Polk Street.

They stock a ton of groceries that you would find in whole paycheck or real foods.
I think they did it as a response to what their customers want.

[EFerrari]

45. Will do. Have you been to a Safeway lately? It's damn scary any more.

I wonder if we could get a farmer's market out here. There's a lot of produce up Irving Street but a lot of people don't shop there. One at Ocean Beach in the parking lot might do well and people like to get together with the neighbors.

(We should get a grant and start a green liberal thinktank. I bet Newsom would go for that and I need the work. :) )

[SpookyCat]

65. I VOLUNTEER TO TALK TO NEWSOM!!!!!!!!

I mean...<cough...> you know...if you WANT.. I guess I COULD...(fiddling with my wedding ring...)

[EFerrari]

68. If you don't get all the way to Gavin, every guy on his security team

is very nice looking, too. :evilgrin:

[stimbox]

70. I haven't been to Spaceway in ages.

It would be cool if every neighborhood had farmer's market.

I should stop at the one they have at Kaiser on the way home from work.

You should write a grant for the thinktank.

[Tyler Durden]

43. Sorry you don't live here in Rural Michigan.

Every grocer here stocks honest to dog organics. We get a ton of certified fresh stuff. The local supermarkets (except Wally World) even have entire sections of organic/vegetarian/vegan goods.

Love the 15% juice Strawberry Lemonade made not even with SUGAR but with Organic Cane Juice.

[flashl]

46. This recent post from the poverty forum may provide some ideas ...

Urban, rural communities lack supply of affordable produce

ALBANY, N.Y. — For years, Mel Williams rarely ate fruit and vegetables — unless it came out of a can.

...

With the rapidly climbing cost of food and fuel, states and nonprofit groups are finding ways to get healthy food to these underserved areas.

...

In New York, the health department gave $500,000 to the Veggie Mobile, operated by the Capital District Community Gardens and delivering fresh, locally grown produce to people in Albany, Troy and nearby Schenectady who otherwise might never buy a fresh apple or tomato.

...

British grocery giant Tesco PLC has opened 61 Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market stores in California, Nevada and Arizona. The small grocery stores are found in upscale markets, but have also filled gaps in underserved areas — including a recently opened store in Compton, Calif., south of Los Angeles.

...

Pennsylvania's Fresh Food Financing Initiative was created in 2004 to commit millions in public funds to leverage additional public and private funds. The money is used to create loans for supermarket development across the state. It provides incentives for stores to open and gets more coolers into small corner stores so they can offer healthier options.

That effort was driven by The Food Trust, a nonprofit which has also helped New Orleans come up with a proposal for dealing with food deserts.

In Chicago, the city created a program to make it easier for grocery stores to do business, attracting new stores to long-underserved neighborhoods.

And in Connecticut, the nonprofit Hartford Food System has signed up 40 smaller retailers for its Healthy Food Retailer Initiative, which since 2006 has provided healthier options to customers in underserved areas. Smaller stores that agree to shift a portion of their shelf space from junk food to healthier options get promotional assistance as an incentive.

[EFerrari]

47. Wow. The CT initiative is interesting although I'm talking about stores

so small they only get neighborhood foot traffic and don't buy ads at all. Even so, some promotion would help people around the block know they exist.

From the link posted above, I found The Healthy Corner Store Network, which looks like a merchants' group and the WIC program (women, infants, children) which is a Federal program.

Still digging. :)

[KamaAina]

50. Perhaps the mom 'n' pops could band together under a common label

sort of like IGA in the middle of the country, where each store is "Independently Owned and Operated", but the association has the buying power to get just the kinds of items you're describing, as well as advertising, etc. "Look for this symbol in your neighborhood store window!"

[EFerrari]

53. An icon in the window would be a great idea for a county wide program.

:)

[KamaAina]

55. Why stop at the county level?

The guy over in Oakland, mentioned above, would seem like an ideal candidate.

Where in the 49-square-mile kingdom are you? I take it, not in Pacific Heights or any place wealthy like that, where the small neighborhood stores have always had good stuff. So it goes...

Hell, if this takes off, I could even be persuaded to sign on, not that I have any experience in retail or marketing or whatnot...

edit: but I have given considerable thought to the issue with respect to New Orleans, where some of the larger grocers have still not reopened nearly three years on, leaving entire neighborhoods dependent on stores such as you describe.

[EFerrari]

56. I'm two blocks from Ocean Beach and a block away from the N-Judah.

It's a great neighborhood and it needs a little work within the scope of most of our wallets. :)

[KamaAina]

59. Would you believe I once stayed at a motel nearby there?!

back in my days of extreme budget vacations. Should I return (goodness, it's been a while!), I'd go for something just a tad more upscale...

It's a great neighborhood

A bit foggy for my taste :-) , not to mention the interminable ride on the N (just try shopping on that thing!) Tough to beat being right off the Pacific, though!

[EFerrari]

60. The N Judah is a great sleeping aid, lol!

And those motels may be sleezy but they're OUR sleezy motels. :rofl:

We stayed there, too, before we wound up here. The whole place is getting spiffed up -- I hope not to much for the people who actually live here.

[SpookyCat]

64. 49-square-mile kingdom...LOL

Outer Richmond, representin' :headbang:


I know nothing to speak of about business either, but I'd be happy to help. Boots on the ground and all that...

[wiggs]

62. Great idea for health, transportation, local farm benefits. nt

[Stinky The Clown]

66. I have to tell as little story ...........

I consult in the foodservice bidniss.

Some of my clients are companies planning an employee cafeteria. Their first question is 'what should the menu be'? Then they wanna do employee surveys to see what the employees want. Every survey we've ever done has 'heart healthy choices' rated very, very high. Often as number one.

In actuality, sales analysis (which can get **very** detailed with electronic cash registers) show that "healthy food" sells less than baked shoe leather.

Its a shame, but its the truth, borne out by years of data ..... decades of data.

My fear with your idea is that the cost for this may not wind up giving the mm and pop the profit they need to keep stocking such items. Now, I am no grocery store expert, but I can't imagine their profit margins and cost structures are significantly different than any other food operation. That said, I can see one or two small stores succeeding by actually going upscale and stocking such items.

[lonestarnot]

69. Don't grocers only make like a 1 or 2 percent profit anyway? And that's the big'ns.