Fuck California Pizza Kitchen

[jgraz]

Check out this new ad:



I'm sure many folks will say I'm being overly sensitive, but this really pisses me off. I grew up in a Sicilian family and have had to put up with the "oooh mafia" comments all my life. I usually just shrug them off, but seeing this ersatz pizza company selling their low-grade crap by trading on this stereotype is just too much.

What's next? Will they tell people that even Jews like their prices? Or maybe they can show Mexicans sneaking across the border to buy a Chipotle Chicken pizza.

It seems that even in these supposedly enlightened hyper-PC times, Sicilians are still expected to smile and play the mediterranean Stepin Fetchit for everyone's stupid ethnic jokes. I'm getting pretty fucking sick of it.

[knight_of_the_star]

1. Umm I didn't make that association until you pointed it out

And even then I still don't quite see it, could be referring to more than just your standard nuclear family but also for things like the guys with a bunch of beers or something like that.

[jgraz]

5. The scare-quoted "family" is a dead giveaway

Kind of like calling a black guy "articulate". You get the slur if you've seen it all your life.

Besides, if it's not making a mafia joke, it's a pretty fucking stupid slogan for the ad.

[Gormy Cuss]

14. Yep. "Family" with Sicilian means only one thing.

My friends with Sicilian roots react the same way.

[jollyreaper2112]

49. wow

So Sicilians never open family restaurants, either?

[jgraz]

51. Yes, but family restaurants are different from "family" restaurants

Can you truly not see what they're implying here?

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Euither that or they did not mean that

but I can see where they may be going a little foo far if you are from Sicilian Origin

[ecstatic]

109. true. and it may be a reference that only Sicilians notice?

Not that that makes it any better.

[Gormy Cuss]

113. Or anyone who has lived near neighborhoods with many of Sicilian ancestry.

You don't joke about "Family" in Revere or East Boston, MA unless you're bearing an Italian surname yourself. Bear in mind that there are families with organized crime connections in these areas so it's not as if the rest of them are denying the existence of the Mafia. They're just sick of the stereotype that all of them are involved in it. Granted, they may not have any perceived adverse effect from it (like not being considered for a job) but it's as tired as 'dumb Polack' and 'drunken Mick' stereotypes.

[LeftyMom]

148. Oh no, I knew exactly what that meant, and I'm part Italian but my family's from Rome.

[karlrschneider]

43. Oh, for christ's sake...get real.

jeezus........
This is a whole new incarnation of 'mountain out of a molehill'....

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deutsey]

85. I'm not Sicilian, but I see it

The "Let's just say..." intro suggests the mafia schema to me, you know like you see in movies and TV shows: "Let's just say he met wit an unfortunate accident."

Then the "family" in quotes also reinforces this for me (The .

Until I read the OP, I probably wouldn't have seen this as offensive, though. Having read the OP, I can see why he or she is annoyed.

[Captain_Nemo]

218. Thought this was code

Hi,
I saw this and thought it was a subliminal message to right wingers who love the word "family."

[AX10]

2. I respect your right to react ot certain things in such a manner...

so long as you respect mine.

Also, is Pizza from Italy or was it conceptualized in the US?

[devilgrrl]

7. I was under the impression it started in Naples in the 1870's

let me look....

[devilgrrl]

12. from wikipedia...

Origins

The history of food items which may have served as the roots of modern pizza can be traced to the ancient Greek colony of Naples in Magna Graecia (southern Italy). Such products arguably have their first written mention in Book VII of Virgil’s Aeneid:

Their homely fare dispatch’d, the hungry band
Invade their trenchers next, and soon devour,
To mend the scanty meal, their cakes of flour.
Ascanius this observ’d, and smiling said:
“See, we devour the plates on which we fed.”

In the 3rd century BC, the first history of Rome, written by Cato the Elder, mentions a “flat round of dough dressed with olive oil, herbs, and honey baked on stones”; placenta was a “sheet of fine flour filled with cheese and honey and flavored with bay leaves”<1>. Further evidence is found in Pompeii, the city “frozen in time” since AD 79, where archaeologists have excavated shops that closely resemble modern pizzerias.

Though several kinds of flat bread made with flour, often cooked with oil and spices, were familiar to ancient Romans and popular in all the Mediterranean area, they were considerably different from pizza as it is known today. "Il sangue di Maiale" (literally meaning pig's blood) and honey were popular dough spreads until the tomato came about. The tomato was still unknown in Europe and the Indian water buffalo, whose milk is used to make the real mozzarella cheese, had not yet been imported to Campania, the area around Napoli. The crust of pizza is very similar to focaccia bread common in Italian cuisine today. Another version is that Melted cheese on Matzo was a popular Jewish Passover dish which was picked up by the Romans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pizza

[Cha]

248. That's just wild!

"Further evidence is found in Pompeii, the city “frozen in time” since AD 79, where archaeologists have excavated shops that closely resemble modern pizzerias."

I wouldn't have gotten the "family" thing. CAuse, I'd be thinking that it was passed down from Great Great Grandmothers or Fathers.

[devilgrrl]

3. As a proud Italian/Sicilian American I concure...

the mob stereotype is soooooooo fucking 70's :eyes:

[jgraz]

10. And yet you have a horse's head as your avatar

;)

[devilgrrl]

13. That's the Media Horse!

:-)

[krispos42]

130. lmao

:spray:

Good catch!

[SledDriver]

4. What's next? Will they tell people that even Jews like their prices?

:rofl:

[sellitman]

8. The only place we don't want half off is..

with the Moile.

[krispos42]

133. *groan*

lol

[TomInTib]

6. "Now open in your grocer's freezer"

"Hanging right next to your uncle Giovanni"

Yeah, that pretty much sucks.

"family", my ass.

I cannot believe that CPK's PR people let that fly.

[gulliver]

9. Not only are they insulting the Italians, but they ...

... make a barbecue chicken pizza. I get shivers.

[uppityperson]

53. and they are insulting families!

After all, my family has never made a good pizza and this implied slur really hurts. If you don't like our food, fine for you, but don't complain and get around it in this passive aggressive "family" food way. :sarcasm:

[blondeatlast]

82. Now, that's offensive! nt

[tridim]

11. Is Godfather's Pizza still in business?

My brother used to work there and his paychecks were cut from "Aifam inc". mafia=aifam.

[bullwinkle428]

16. Yeah, still in business - can't understand why though;

worst pizza franchise in the U.S.A., in my humble opinion!!

[tridim]

27. Nothing's worse than Pizza Hut

With their 1/2 grease, 1/2 flour dough recipe. :puke:

[Jim Sagle]

39. I think Domino's is worse - mostly air.

[bullwinkle428]

87. I wouldn't feed Domino's to my pets!

[Kurovski]

217. Dominoes is horrendous.

Wretched, even.

[wicket]

79. Dominoes, hands down

Plus they are uber right-wing in their political contributions.

[bullwinkle428]

90. Yeah, that Monaghan guy is a douchebag, but I thought I had

read sometime that he wasn't involved in the business anymore. The pizza quality hasn't improved any from the first time I tried it, some 20 years ago...

[wicket]

92. I don't get how their garbage is still classified as "food"

It makes me want to :puke:

[DemBones DemBones]

153. Monaghan sold Domino's about ten years ago. nt

[bullwinkle428]

86. Can't disagree too much with that; however, it's hard to find any

chain that could even begin to compete with local mom & pop-type pizzerias, at least if your're talking about the east coast. I grew up in the Buffalo, N.Y. area, and always have to get my pizza from my local favorite each time I go back to visit!

[pinniped]

65. Mr. Pizza Man sucks pretty bad.

Is anyone else getting this while loading this page?

[fishwax]

73. I got that too

whassup with that?

[pinniped]

76. Some math geek at NYU is trying to jack our puters!

.

[ebayfool]

167. It's the jpg in post #25 trying to install a security certificate.

Cobalt-60


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x365604#365807

*ttps://www.math.nyu.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Mirrors/EngravingMirror.*pg

I asterisked the addy so it wouldn't show the jpg & do it again.
If you right click the pizza box in post #25 (how fitting for the thread!) it'll pop up the warning/message again.

Yo ... Cobalt! You're radioactive here! LOL!

[Cobalt-60]

169. My apologies!

I got it too.
I'm not sure I have the permissions to fix it, but here goes.
Thanks for pointing it out.
It's a cool pic though....

[ebayfool]

176. Not a prob - I blocked the certificate, so I can't see the pic.

If you can't change the permissions on-site, you might want to alert the mods so they can delete it. That security alert could start a stampede in here!

Made my 'cheeks' clench up for a couple minutes there! :rofl:


OT, but are you by chance an xray hand? The moniker brings back some wild & woolly 'old days' for me!

[pinniped]

180. Thanks, it looks like Archimedes trying to set a ship ablaze with his anti-terra dude death ray.

.

[ebayfool]

346. Not a problem, I was twigged @ it myself for a few!

Gone now. I like your description of it, though! Kinda appropriate that all I could see was the little 'pizza box' on a pizza thread! :rofl:

[qanda]

75. I didn't get that but IE blocked something

[krispos42]

134. Mine too... n/t

[Tsiyu]

104. Yes, what the hell should I be worried?

I'll get Guido to kick his ass!

Actually, i'm half italian and yes, mafia jokes and insinuations are another tired ploy of ad agencies.

:boring:

[uppityperson]

117. I got that last night and just now also.

[uppityperson]

151. I am getting this on other DU topics too. Not just here.

[ebayfool]

164. Yeah, I am ... wtf? n/t

[krispos42]

132. Yeah, they kinda blow

We would get them at my old job if we had an injury-free month. I happily ate it, but left to my own devices I ordered Pizza Hut.

Here in the Cities, the treat is usually Davanni's, which I think is a damn good pizza chain.

When I go home to Connecticut, I eat at Pepe's Pizza, established 1934 in the Italian section of New Haven.

I'm a quarter Sicilian, by the way.

[blondeatlast]

83. Here ya go...

http://www.godfathers.com/

[slackmaster]

222. We have a Godfather Italian Restaurant in San Diego

It's actually one of the best in town.



http://www.godfatherrestaurant.com/home.html

I recommend the Scampi Fra Diavolo if you like something uplifting.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Looks Like These Days Everyone's Offended By Something.

Personally, I find most cases to absolutely be oversensitive and taking things too seriously. Some of them way too seriously. But if you're offended, you're offended. Sorry to hear that.

[jgraz]

21. It gets a bit old having people constantly "joke" that your ethnicity makes you a criminal

When CPK does it, it's just too much. After all, they've been shitting on Italians for years just by calling the crap they sell "pizza".

[Vinnie From Indy]

31. That's their real crime!

They insult Italians each and every day by baking round piles of crap topped with more crap. The real crime is that millions of Americans think that Italian red sauce should taste like watery catsup with a dash of oregano and garlic.

[kanrok]

17. Here's what Joe Pesci would say to California Pizza Kitchen:

"Take that pizza and stick it up your sister's ass"

[talkinghead]

18. Excellent use of the word erstaz...but I still think you are overreacting

And I say this as a white guy without any knowledge of my ancestry.

[jgraz]

23. Yep, as a white guy you've never had to put up with it

I've had people make mafia jokes to me during job interviews, and I just had to smile and take it. Those comments always grate a little, but seeing it in print to sell crappy pizza is more than I'm willing to put up with.

[karlrschneider]

44. Actually, it's pretty damn good pizza. But I guess that doesn't count.

jeezusfuckingchrist...

[shadowknows69]

62. If it makes you feel any better

I'm of German descent. Nuff said? At least the Italians only followed Hitler for a while. My people spawned the son of a bitch.

[Swamp Rat]

68. Hitler war österreichisch.

;)

[jgraz]

70. Do you get a lot of Nazi jokes?

I honestly have no idea. Where I grew up there were so many German-Americans that it was pretty much the default ethnicity. I can't imagine hearing that someone's of German descent and making a joke about how many of their relatives were (are) Nazis. That's effectively what Sicilians get all the time.

[symbolman]

63. Okay

so what do you think of the Supranos?

LOve it, hate it, stereotypes? Reality show?

Are the actors that aren't Italian 'selling out'?

:)

[slackmaster]

226. Try growing up in a military town in the 1960s, with a German surname

We all have our crosses to bear.

[riverdeep]

19. The only thing that confused me about Italian stereotypes

is that it was often Italians making them. The Godfather films, Robert DeNiro, Brian DePalma, Joe Pesci, Martin Scorcese, etc. It almost seems like they are quite proud of the stereotype. I dunno, maybe they figured they would stereotype themselves before someone else did?

[talkinghead]

20. Well, its been a fairly well-paying stereotype for them at least.

[jgraz]

26. Kind of like black people using the N-word

We can do it, you can't.

[Bucky]

110. Google "Steppen Fetchit"

[Bronyraurus]

159. The Italians controlled organized crime

for a long time in the US. It's an interesting story, and guys like Scorsese grew up with it, so they made movies about it.

[jgraz]

160. So did the Jews, the Irish, the Chinese and the Japanese, to name a few

I guess the Italians are just more interesting. We also made huge contributions to the arts, sciences, technology, cuisine, sports and popular culture -- but for some reason, nobody seems to mention Enrico Fermi when they meet me.

[Bronyraurus]

183. Senator Geary mentioned Enrico Fermi

in his speech before the Senate committee in Godfather II...

It's not like Italians' contributions to the arts, sciences, cuisine, and pop culture are unknown anyway. I'm sure many of you have heard of Leonardo DaVinci.

[purduejake]

22. Probably just a stupid slogan without meaning harm.

If the company starts firing Sicilians and/or lobbying against their rights, I'd start to worry more at that point. Although they probably don't mean harm, they're certainly causing it and should review what's been done.

[Initech]

24. So their pizza is made out of people now?

:shrug:

[talkinghead]

30. Hey Slobadon you made it!

I didn't know what to bring so I brought cold slaw (?). Its made out of people! Ah, just kidding. Hey, is Momar hear yet?

[Initech]

47. OMG!!!

:spray:

Took me a minute to get the Family Guy reference... :rofl:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ebayfool]

168. Cobalt - check post #167 ... you're ringing our bells w/your jpg n/t

[-..__...]

28. California Pizza Kitchen and other "gourmet" pizzas are an abomination anyways.

Pineapple slices, tuna, eggplant, shrimp (what kind of sacrilegious idiot puts shrimp on a pizza and still calls it pizza?)

Cheese, sauce and maybe pepperonis, mushrooms and meatballs are acceptable.

Anything else is just is just pretentious consumerism for the Gen X crowd and beyond.

[riverdeep]

41. I used to feel this way too

Being from Chicago where pizza is a religion. Here was my list of acceptable toppings-sausage, pepperoni, mushroom, onion, green peppers, olives, anchovies (although no one ordered this, ever) and if you were near the Canadian border-Canadian bacon. That's it. Nothing else was allowed.

The decline started with the meats. I blame Freemasonry, or maybe the Illuminati. First ham, then bacon and ground beef. And I don't know who decided pineapple was a good idea, but I imagine schnapps was involved.
Now, it is an unholy free for all.

Then, one day I tried a spinach pizza, and to my everlasting shame, I liked it. I don't speak of my bizzare preferences around company.

[Swamp Rat]

69. "what kind of sacrilegious idiot puts shrimp on a pizza and still calls it pizza?"

Italians

[jgraz]

72. Yep, sardines too

Seafood on pizza was very big in my family. My favorite was a clam pizza with sliced hard-boiled eggs.

Now pineapple is another story. Keep that shit away from my pie.

[krispos42]

137. Italy is seafood-intensive

When the Italians emmigrated to America, there was a lot more land-based meat available for Italian food in general.

My mom's parents (the Italian side) still eat a lot of shrimp and clams and oysters and fish. My mom didn't follow, prefering land animals instead, and I'm the same way.

My ex's mom's family is also Italian and they do a TON of seafood for Christmas. They don't eat any other meat but seafood! Argh!

One Christmas dinner, all I had the entire night was bread and butter, M&Ms, and some French onion soup my ex made out of pity for me.

Anchovies in tomato sauce... ugh. Squid stuffed with ricotta and tomato sauce:puke: Seafood lasagna... :puke: :puke:

[GreenZoneLT]

78. Ah, geez, another know-nothing heard from

Cuisine is not consumerism. And if it is, then let me be a consumer.

One of my personal favorites is a white pizza with caramelized onions and feta. I have to make it myself, but it's not that hard to do.

[Maiden England]

100. I want to see your face when you see a Bismark pizza

Pizza alla Bismark:
For reasons unknown to me a pizza with an egg cracked over it so it emerges from the oven sunny-side-up is called a Bismark. Excactly what else goes onto the pizza is up to the pizzaiolo, but ham goes quite well. So: 1/2 cup tomato sauce or chopped canned tomatoes, 2-3 ounces thinly sliced ham, shredded, and an egg. Spread the tomato sauce over the pizza, sprinkle the remaining ingredients over the sauce, crack the egg over the middle of the pizza, drizzle with a few drops olive oil and bake.



(edited to add picture)

[-..__...]

123. No you dont...

"I want to see your face when you see a Bismark pizza"

:puke:

I wouldn't even call that a pizza... it's bastardized version of some foul concoction not fit
to be called a "pizza".

But... to each his own I guess.

[jgraz]

129. I don't know where "Bismark" comes from, but pizza with eggs is a tradition in my family

We also used sliced hard-boiled eggs, but I prefer the baked ones. I've always assumed this was some old Sicilian recipe, since my great grandma (who never learned english) used to make it.

[DemBones DemBones]

154. You can get a pizza with an egg cracked over it in Italy.

It's the default setting in some places. Italian pizza is very different from Italian-American pizza but both are good.

[uppityperson]

152. clams, white sauce, lots of garlic, cheese, yum.

sort of like a taco isn't just ground hamburger, chopped unripe tomatoes, iceberg lettuce and American cheese (because it melt soooooo well)

[bumblebee1]

231. One of our local independents makes a pizza with shrimp, crabmeat and

scallops. He doesn't make it that often. This gent also offers quite a variety of pizza in addition to pizza with traditional toppings. His seafood pizza is quite good. There is no tomato sauce on it, though.

[orleans]

29. well, if i was sicilian i'd be fucking sick of the mafia connection always

being made with sicilians

but i'm not sicilian.

and i'm still getting fucking sick of the mafia connection always being made with sicilians.

[mmonk]

32. Wouldn't it be too hot or are you talking about frozen?

[tritsofme]

33. Here's a sollution to this problem, fuck corporate pizza alltogether.

I'm from Chicago.

I've never had a Pizza Hut or this shithole looking place in my life.

I'll stick with family owned places, that's where the real pizza is.

[jgraz]

35. Yep, I'm from Chicago too

California is a fucking wasteland when it comes to pizza. That's why I learned to make my own:

[karlrschneider]

45. I wouldn't eat that big bag of dough piece of shit if I were starving.

So there!

[jgraz]

71. If you were starving, I wouldn't offer you any.

[Andromeda]

74. I would!

Yummy.

[tritsofme]

61. There's a pizza.

Jeez, after growing up in Chicago and moving to a place like California I guess you'd have no other choice but to learn to cook it by yourself.

And it looks like you learned well.

[tridim]

97. I make my own too, have been for about 10 years

It's better (and massively cheaper) than anything I've ever eaten in a pizza joint. Of course I make my own sauce too with Romas straight from the garden and thanks to Costco, yeast and cheese are affordable.
Only problem is my oven maxes out 50 degrees short of the perfect temperature, but it still works fine with the stone.

[NotGivingUp]

202. omg that looks good!!! i'm low- carbin'...you're torturing me!

i'm from chicago...now in florida. pizza sucks down here.

[jgraz]

203. I removed all the carbs before cooking

Ditto for all the saturated fat.

[aikoaiko]

37. is that family owned or "family owned"

sorry, couldn't help myself.

[dailykoff]

34. Can't be worse than crap they peddle for St. Patrick's Day.

I got a mailer from a drugstore with a 14-dollar leprechaun kit complete with fake red beard.

[Gormy Cuss]

59. If the kit included a whiskey bottle labeled 'Spirit of Eire' it'd be about the same.

The Irish are always drunk just like the Sicilians are always in the mob.
Granted, there is too much Irish stereotype crap marketed for St. Patrick's Day.

[Cobalt Violet]

36. That doesn't look like a Sicillian pizza to me.

And it is offensive.

[dysfunctional press]

38. fuhgeddaboudit...

the sopranos return for the final episodes April 8.

so that's gotta make you feel at least a little better.

[BlooInBloo]

40. (a) Clearly mafia reference, (b) pretty mild (contrast with Godfather's Pizza), (c)...

... Why are they selling frozen pizza?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

46. I don't get it

Then again, I have little understanding of the mafia.

But I don't see how they referred to it in this ad. Truly.

[jgraz]

48. See posts #5 and #14

[uppityperson]

50. I thought it was "family" like "mom's" is "mom's", rather than generic run of the milll commercial

generic run of the mill pixxa vs family style. I thought it was marketing to appeal to those that don't want generic pizza.

[jgraz]

54. The scare quotes and the "let's just say" make the meaning pretty clear

They probably didn't have room for the "nudge-nudge wink-wink".

[uppityperson]

55. What is a "scare quote"?

I can see your point, looking at it again, about let's just say.

[jgraz]

56. Wikipedia to the rescue!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes

[krispos42]

138. Ah, that's what they're called

I used them all the time, but I didn't know there was a term for it.

Thank you.

[BlooInBloo]

66. "Fredo, you're my older brother and I love you. But don't ever take sides....

... with anyone against The Family again."

Not a movie-buff, I take it?

[uppityperson]

115. nope, a mid-weterner. Ever listen to Prairie Home Companion?

That is what I grew up with. Hot dish vs casserole. You bet. I am also slow on the uptake but can understand when it is shown. I get this now.

[BlooInBloo]

150. Nope - but I'm from Peoria, Il - bout as midwest as it gets... cheers!

[porphyrian]

52. I'm kicking this just for the title. - n/t

[Beausoir]

58. I don't like Sicilian-phobic advertising.

[nonconformist]

60. I'm Sicilian too. I've gotten used to this sort of thing, sadly.

I've been called a guinea, a dego and a WOP before... and that really fucking pisses me off.

[Greyhound]

64. They sold out to Kraft foods and we shouldn't be eating that crap anyway.

The company supports the Repubik campaign of death and the food sucks.

And no, you're not being too sensitive, but perhaps a bit naive?:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Not without dinner and a movie, first. nt

[GreenZoneLT]

77. Pretty stupid ad, true.

I guess it's because I've been around Italy a bit, but that stuff just seems so provincial and juvenile to me. When I think of Sicily, I think of grilled octopus, not Vito Corleone.

But if you're the ad copy writer, and you've got to come up with a unique tagline for a "Sicilian" product that most Americans will recognize, what are you going to come up with? I got La Cosa Nostra and nothing. Most pizza places go with nothing, they just call it Sicilian and leave it at that.

Boy, if this pisses you off, though, I hate to think of your reaction to Godfather's Pizza (for a pizza you can't refuse). Is that a national chain, or just in the Southeast?

Taco Bell does less of the "South of the Border" stereotyping than they once did, but they haven't cut it out altogether. I guess we've come a ways since the Frito Bandito.

[krispos42]

139. It doesn't even look like a Sicilian pizza!

Looks more like a thin-crust or whatever. :-)

[NashVegas]

80. All California Pizza Offends Me

Except for SF's North Beach Pizza. Granted, it's been 20 years since I was there, and they may have discovered that whole milk fats won't kill you, and I'm sure they've since discovered olive oil definitely won't kill you.

[WinkyDink]

81. OMG, yet ANOTHER offended DU'er!!

I'm half-Siciliana (Palermo), and I say, "Lighten up!!"

Oh, and "Mangia!"

[NewJeffCT]

84. As somebody who has Sicilian & Neopolitan blood...

It does bother me that every time I mention that my grandfather was Sicilian, people always make a "mafia" comment, almost without fail. I don't get too worked up over it, however, as I realize that it's such a pervasive stereotype that it will likely be beyond my lifetime when it has changed.

At least I haven't heard a "dumb Pollock" joke in years when I mention I'm Polish on my dad's side.

That said, are the owners of California Pizza Kitchen of Italian/Sicilian descent? How about the owners of Olive Garden (when you're here, you're "family") If so, I would take them to task for perpetuating the Sicilian-Mafia stereotype.

[Beelzebud]

88. If you are never offended, you aren't living in a free society.

Sorry. I can't seem to get worked up over this at all.

[npincus]

89. I honestly didn't get it at first reading

and thought you were over-reacting.

Yeah, it's dopey and obnoxious. Perhaps you should report them to the FBI, since they've outed their "family" connections.

[matcom]

91. oh.my.gawd.

now I have heard it all.

[Critters2]

124. Matcom, you always make me laugh!! Thanks! nt

[trumad]

93. Holy crap---

I just thought of a new Geico commercial.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[matcom]

95. ...

:rofl:

[Marrah_G]

96. I'm offended by grocery store pizza!

Bleh, yuck yuck yuck!

We have a real pizza shop on every corner here in the north east. We never eat that supermarket crap, or the chain restraunt crap.

[Firepit 462]

98. Well, from a white boy,

I'm from the South West but have friends that moved to NY. A chile relleno in NY is a frickin bell pepper stuffed with rice and hamburger with a low grade tomato salsa paste, yet they are still allowed to call it "Mexican Food".

Instead of getting upset, just don't eat that crap. I tend to think that it's a way of getting people to buy the frozen pizza, not a slur on the Sicilian's, or a ramp up to rip Jewish or Mexican people. I think every frozen pizza uses an Italian tag line of some kind, but " try our pre-processed, pizza like frozen shit disk" wouldn't grab anybody. If you are this upset at somebody who is non-Italian trading on Italian or Sicilian heritege then damn, there is enough to keep you pissed off at any grocery store in the country.

Good luck, but for gods sake stay out of the "ethnic foods isle" at any grocery store.

[uppityperson]

118. Good writing. Thank you.

bell pepper stuffed with rice and hamburger? Sounds like what they used to serve at church "mexican" potlucks in the mid-west in the 70's for a change from cream of mushroom souped hot dish. First time I had a real fish taco I was in heaven. It even had something "weird" called cilantro. Ethnic food in grocery store can be very odd.

[slackmaster]

227. Amen to all that

When I want ethnic foods I go to an ethnic grocery store.

I make my own pizza from scratch BTW - dough and all.

[Nikki Stone1]

99. Yeah, this sucks.

I'm with you on this.

[NoGOPZone]

101. Don't get mad

Get even. Contact this organization.

http://iaonevoicecoalition.org/index.html

[Javaman]

102. Being Italian, I see you point...

however, growing up in NYC, it's amplified by a thousand. Worst off, the term "family" in quotation does put me off, it's not as bad as being called some truly horrible names that other kids called me and my family when we were growing up.

The part about the use of the word family in quotations that really offends me, is that anyone that isn't Italian, believes that all Italians one form or another are involved with the mafia.

And this type of advertising only feeds into that ignorant belief.

As we have slowly evolved over the years and have made some ground in the areas of racism and bigotry, it's still very prevalent.

I don't hear the term "grease ball, wop or guinea" any longer. However, I still hear to this day, the casual reference to the mafia and /or being good at laying bricks or making cement. I grin and bear it.

[maveric]

103. As a Sicilian-American, it really doesnt bother me.

My family never was very sensitive to cracks like that. We just ignored it.

[Virginia Dare]

105. Yep, it's pretty tacky...n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

106. Being a Chicagoan, thin-crust pizza offends me.

That is not a pizza. That is a cracker with cheese.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. I haven't been this offended

...since the penguin movie.

[Bucky]

108. I agree; it's offensive. And believe me, you do NOT want to piss off those Sicilians.

Oh dear, I've said something tacky again.

[DrunkenMaster]

111. Another Hit Job by the Thought Police!

Are you serious?

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrunkenMaster]

187. what a ridiculous response

Listen, buddy -- the planet is falling apart, Americans are dying, the Constitution is in tatters and what do YOU choose to whine about? A f**king pizza box!

Way to go, you progressive warrior, you! You ban those ethnic stereotypes!


What a f**king joke.

[jgraz]

189. And yet...

You choose to spend your time DEFENDING a f**king pizza ad. That must really be cutting into your work feeding the poor and saving the planet.

[ProfessorGAC]

112. I Grew Up In A Sicilian Family Too

You need to get a grip. The italians were FULLY integrated into this society 75 years ago. This isn't oppression. It's a joke.
The Professor

[jgraz]

128. You must have grown up in a different area than I did

I was in high school during the 80s and I had several girlfriends whose parents were not wild about them dating a Sicilian (or Catholic, take your pick). I've had the Mafia jokes come up in job interviews, during company meetings and (just yesterday) from the guy being introduced to me as our new division head. Seeing that same slur being used to sell shitty pizza just sent me over the edge.

[ProfessorGAC]

136. I Grew Up In The Sixties

And that means the italians were MORE integrated into the culture when you were in school than when i was.

You're not addressing the real issue. Italian-Americans are not oppressed and haven't been since before the 1920's. Geez, one of the candidates for president is an italian-american. They've been mayors, governors, senators, reps. They run giant corporations (now the one from Hewlett-Packard wasn't that good, but she got the job). The SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE is one!

That's not oppression. Your outrage appears apropos of nothing.
The Professor

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfessorGAC]

181. My Logic Doesn't Resemble Earth Logic?

My logic? You have taken leave of your senses.
The Professor

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfessorGAC]

184. I Grew Up Around Chicago

And YOU mentioned the 80's before i ever mentioned the 60's. So catch up, shall we? You said i didn't grow up where you did, then said it was the 80's. What other reply would anyone reasonably give? Oh yeah. The one i gave!

I grew up around Chicago. You know the part of "flyover" country that everyone says is so backward? That matters how. And just what area of the country is so far behind that italians and sicilians haven't been integrated 100 years after the primary migration?

Thirdly, i couldn't care less whether you believe my background. There are folks at DU who know me personally. They know it's true. You don't believe it; big deal.

You got yourself in an unwarranted snit and now your trying to belittle me for calling you on it. You do know that your last post breaks the rules of DU, do you not?

You are boring me. Your original point is silly. Your continued arguments tired. Your feigned outrage preposterous. And now your insulting me. You are not worthy of my time. I'm out.
The Professor

[jgraz]

186. I'm just pointing out that your posts make no sense

And your grammer kinda sucks, "Professor" (you are = you're).

You grew up in Chicago, yet you don't seem to understand how that west side community (where my family is from) is different from rural Wisconsin (where I grew up). Chicago has been an Italian-friendly city for quite a long time, but that doesn't mean that your (or should I say "you're") experience applies everywhere.

[GoneOffShore]

207. Italians in this country were not considered "White"

Until the 40's and even then they were discriminated against.

http://www.prisonersamongus.com/

[jgraz]

213. Neither were the Irish

Some of the 19th century depictions of Irish-Americans are just sickening.

Personally, I still don't consider myself white. My heritage is 100% Sicilian going back at least 8 generations. I probably share more genes with Arabs and Africans than I do with northern Europeans.

[youthere]

191. I don't mean to sound dense..

and I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but how can people tell you're Sicilian as opposed to be descended from any other area of Italy? Do Sicilian bear a certain feature or surname? Again, I'm not being snarky, I really want to know.

[Marrah_G]

114. I give up..........

:crazy:

[DerBeppo]

119. what offends me is elitist, wannabe foodies

who think their wish-it-was C.I.A. (the school, not the government org.) trained pallet is insulted by any pie that isn't served by a sweaty mid-westerner with a mustache and a wall full of Mike Ditka posters on his southside hole-in-the-wall pizza shop. Well that's bullshit.

New York, Asia and California saved pizza from the greasy joke it had become. Alfredos, barbecues, and various other sauces that actually work with unique ingredients and create flavor profiles that are actually inspired. Sure, some of it is over the top and overly pretentious, but that doesn't nullify anything that isn't on Joey Pizza's chalkboard menu.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. If I was was going to start eating pizza again, you're damn right I would want it to come from a

sweaty Mike Ditka clone. Sorry, Jack. Having spent decades both in Chicago and on the West Coast, I can say that here in California we kick the midwest's ass in many things, starting with the weather... but Pizza is NOT one of them.

If that makes me an "elitist", well, I thought I earned that just by being a Democrat. :eyes:

[Critters2]

125. Thank you.

I used to love those little hole-in-the-wall pizza places in Boston, complete with chalkboard!!

[Kelly Rupert]

126. Who's the elitist here?

You're telling us to stop being "elitist wannabe foodies," and then deride Chicago pizza as greasy junk food for sweaty Bears fans, as opposed to the delicate "unique ingredients" and "inspired flavor profiles" of CA pizza.

Keep your flavor profiles. Gimme a Gino's.

[Beelzebud]

135. LOL I was thinking the same thing as I read it...

[Warren DeMontague]

165. As a long-time California resident I say...

If my cholesterol level would allow it, I would be ALL OVER a Gino's. Mmmmmmm. There are things about Chicago I miss.

Of course, the words "Wind Chill" aren't one of them.

[jgraz]

177. Sadly, I think Gino's has faded.

The new Hard Rock Cafe-ish location is turning out some pretty substandard pies. I still like the Dearborn St. Edwardo's.

[karlrschneider]

144. HAHAHAHA!!! Best. Post. In. The. Thread. ! ! !

:D

[GoneOffShore]

250. I'm an elitist foodie (not a wannabee)

And there's a lot of really good pizza out there and a lot of crap.

You have to pick your pizza place. - Here in Philly we've basically two that IMHO are worthwhile - Tacconellis in the Northeast and Rustica in Northern Liberties. There's also a not bad place at 2nd and Chestnut.

A lot of the rest here are second rate, red gravy pies. A lot of the sweaty guys behind the counter just keep going back to that reservoir of oregano flavoured red gravy that would appear to be under the oil refinery in Southwest Philly.

[onenote]

120. I take it you're not a big fan of "The Sopranos" either

[Quixote1818]

238. ROTFL

:rofl:

[drbtg1]

121. They pissed me off before for a different ad

A billboard ad showed a fresh hot pizza on the left and a boxed frozen pizza on the right. The captions for the ads said "before kids" and "after kids".

Trying to sell me something by making fun of the sacrifices I make in order to be a good parent tells me the ad was written by a superficial little shit without kids.

Fuck California Pizza Kitchen indeed!

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

131. 100% Italian with passport to prove it!

Alas, I am from north-central Italy and sadly I recognize that people from northern Italy make fun of people from southern Italy all the time (sort of like Yanks vs. southerners).

I am actually tired of the mafia nonsense. Not everyone who is Sicilian is involved in the Mafia and not everyone who is Italian speaks with a thick accent or has dark complexion.

Seems like it's ok to assume everyone with an Italian background or surname is affiliated with the mob.

However, the worst pizza is, by far, Papa John's! Domino's and Pizza Hut are not far behind. In fact, I daresay most pizza in the U.S. sucks, except in a few places in or around NYC.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

327. Hey, a Duke fan and a Carolina fan can agree on something!!

Papa John's = scary food. In fact- I may put quotes around "food" if I write it again!

The few things I miss about living in NYC are all culinary. What does that say about me? :hi:

[jgraz]

330. What does that say about you?

That you have your priorities straight. ;)

[MzNov]

140. and they give all their money to Publicans besides being overpriced !!

not a BLUE company!


:grr:

[Hosnon]

141. This thread is a rarity on DU. From the forum it looks like a major flame-fest.

Inside, however, it is quite different.

[jollyreaper2112]

142. California Pizza Kitchen

California Pizza Kitchen, so tasty even a caveman would eat it!

[Gormy Cuss]

143. An exercise based on some of the replies.

To summarize:

** If only some people read the quotes around family as a reference to the Mafia, then it can't mean that. Even if it does, it's all in good fun.

** The Mafia family stereotype doesn't rise to the level of oppression, so no one should be offended by it .

** Some people with Sicilian/Italian heritage aren't offended, so no one else should be either.


Let's do a substitution.
** If you make a misogynistic reference in an ad and I don't get it, does it exist?
** If the female stereotype doesn't oppress women, then no woman should be offended by it?
** If some women aren't offended, does that mean that no one woman should be?

[jgraz]

146. Ugh -- sorry dude.

Your PM was one of many I got, most of which were nasty. I didn't read yours carefully enough.

Please accept my apology. Or better yet, forward my response to one of the other posters on this thread.

:pals:

Edit; In my defense, you have no idea how close your PM was to others I got.

[Gormy Cuss]

149. No problem n/t

[jgraz]

147. What I don't understand is

Why the outraged reaction to my OP? I didn't go after any DUers, didn't call for censorship and didn't try to tell people what to think. I just voiced my personal reaction to an ad that I thought was stupid and ethnically biased.

Why do people feel the need to rush to the defense of a lame-ass pizza ad?

[DemBones DemBones]

156. Good analogy. nt

[DemBones DemBones]

155. You're not being overly sensitive. It's a bigoted ad.

I cannot believe the number of DUers who are telling you to get over it. It's offensive to Italians. Period.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tsiyu]

166. We used to play a song on this radio show I produced called

"Assholes on Parade."

I was reminded of that song - after all these years - by some of the responses in this thread.

If you say you are offended by something, the assholes strike up the band and assemble their floats...

I came up with some ad campaigns here that could offend everyone by turns, and I would probably get this post deleted if I write them here, but let's just say I could piss off a lot of White men, Jewish people, Black people, Mexicans, Germans and snobs if I were to share my variation on the theme in the OP.

It never hurts to try to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, to try to see why that person might be absolutely OVER the stereotype he or she personally has had to deal with to the point of disgust and frustration.

For example, someone above is all smug and HAHA what is your PROBLEM? teehee , but when a recent issue touched his life he went over the top in his attacks on anyone who disagreed.

When you think about it it's ALL personal, Baby, and it doesn't hurt one bit to try some empathy or at least to THINK for a second or two before you ridicule someone else's issue.

I graduated in '77, and heard so many "Italians are lazy," "Is your Dad in the Mob?" "You have a Godfather? Ha Ha" comments because of my four syllable, Italian surname (which NO ONE in the South could ever pronounce) it got old. I have tougher skin, now, but I still find ads like this one to be unimaginative and lame, not to mention infuriating to those who still have to put up with the slurs.

[jgraz]

174. Good song, that

Some of the deleted messages illustrated this even better. One of the posters came out and called me a "wop" and then dared me to insult his heritage, promising to laugh at anything I dished out. So I hit him with my best (worst) German slur and he flipped out, called me a shitbag and put me on ignore.

[DemBones DemBones]

322. Well, well,well,

I bet I know just who that was, too. When it was HIS ox that was gored, he couldn't take it.

[LoZoccolo]

157. Oh really? I guess I have a message to send back to them.

[Hissyspit]

161. Rachel Ray is half-Sicilian. Tuscans were making fun of her

at the wine-tasting in an episode I saw the other day.

I don't think she would eat California Pizza Kitchen, but I dunno.

[jgraz]

170. Tuscans call Sicilians "dirt eaters"

I don't remember the slur we use on the northerners, but it's some comment on their froo-froo ways.

[GreenZoneLT]

172. Call them "Germans."

They're tall and blond enough; I'm sure they'd hate that.

[jgraz]

175. hee hee -- you're pretty close on that

I actually think the insult was "Svizzero" (Swiss).

[Hissyspit]

179. I think everyone on the show was kind of laughing about the stereotypes

since they were all enjoying the wine. They would probably have been more likely to stereotype her as an American!

Dirt is pretty important in Tuscany, too. For the grapes... Siena gives us Burnt Siena oil paint, etc.

[yurbud]

162. As someone Scottish/Irish/WASP, I'm offended that we have no really offensive stereotypes

The drunken mick, the stingy Scot, and the snaggle-toothed Brit are all well-known stereotypes, but they don't deeply offend me the way the OP is offended by this mafia stuff. Which offends me.

Aren't my people as worthy of offending?

[GreenZoneLT]

171. What about the moneybags soccer mom?

Don't all white people belong to country clubs and drink martinis in the afternoon? I guess not so much a slur, that, although it pisses me off when people assume I came from a privileged background (Daddy was the first one in his family to GO to high school, let alone graduate).

If you're Southern, or even better Appalachian, you got all kinds of hillbilly stuff to be offended by.

[Eurobabe]

163. They are just jealous because they make cardboard pizza

VIVA ITALIA!!

[SoCalDem]

173. We used to have a "Godfathers' Pizza" restaurant here..

Mobster pics on the wall and everything. :eyes:

[Roland99]

188. I delivered pizzas for Godfather's here in town when I was in college.

We didn't have pics of mobsters on the wall, though. At least none that I remember.

[GreenTea]

178. And the children point their fingers at me...call me a criminal, a spaghetti eating

whop, they laugh...Catholic, they mock....Me, a San Francisco Italian from North Beach with Sicilian and Genovese blood...Godfather they curse & scream at me, how many have you killed today...If they tasted my Chippino or Polpette's they would be ashamed...They blame us Italians for everything bad,....Your red wine taste like sewer water, don't bring it here... Though out history, as far back as the BC Roman empire we've been targeted! Our tradition's & values are suspect and call unpatriotic meant only to benefit Italy they argue... My big Nana, bless her heart, taught me truth. There are many anti-Dego slurs that pass for jokes among the ignorant....We should not be considered uncivilized or animals simply because we look different, are successful, have style & have hair on our chest.

I eat only the pizza of Gucci, Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Tianello and Tizio...So stop with the stereo types already!!

Si?

Ciao!

[Roland99]

185. Better hope they don't start making a Snickers pizza

:eyes:

[cgrindley]

190. Yep... overly sensitive

have you actually lived in an entirely Italian neighborhood?

[jgraz]

192. Yes, I have. What's your point?

[cgrindley]

193. Well

I don't understand your objection.

PS none of you mooks know nothing about pizza. New Haven is the pizza capital of the world and the only real question is Sally's or Pepe's. Me, I'm a Modern guy.

[rox63]

194. Most of the good pizza joints in my area are owned by Greeks

How did that ever happen? And they make an excellent spinach & feta pie. Maybe it shouldn't be called pizza, but it sure is yummy.

[truebrit71]

195. Oh please....get over it...aren't there more important things to be outraged about...?

..then some vague perceived slur on Italians?

Like say, an illegal war or stolen elections?

On a scale of 1-10 of things to get worked up about, a pizza marketing campaign ranks about -999999999

[jgraz]

196. Apparently you have nothing better to do

than to leap to the defense of an ad for crappy pizza.

Seriously, what's your problem with my one post venting about a clear slur against my ethnicity? Just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean it isn't there.

[truebrit71]

197. Because a pizza company rubbing you the wrong way is SURELY not

the worst thing to be concerned about right now...

[jgraz]

199. Do YOU only think about the ABSOLUTELY most important thing and any one time?

I'm perfectly capable of multitasking. It's not like this silly little thread is even in my top 10 priorities for today. SURELY you're not suggesting that people avoid doing ANYTHING unless it's ABSOLUTELY the most important thing they coudl possibly be doing?

If you are suggesting that, why aren't you over in Darfur trying to stop the genocide? SURELY that's more important than trying to control what I post on DU, isn't it?

[truebrit71]

200. Dude, chill out...it's just a joke about Italian crooks....

...WTF? The mafia DOESN'T exist? Sicilians haven't been slaughtering each other for CENTURIES over petty bullshit?

The 'Godfather' series of movies is about a nice Jewish family in the import/export lox business right?

Who gives a shit?

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truebrit71]

204. Get over yourself...Seriously...

You know nothing about me or my intellignce level....

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can see a thin-skinned victim in search of a cause a mile away...

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truebrit71]

215. Legitimate debate? You must be joking! You get your knickers in a twist about a fucking PIZZA ad..

...and you're telling ME that I'm a not the sharpest knife in the drawer?....:rofl:

Seriously, take a look at the vast numbers of posts in this thread that suggest you get over yourself, swallow your pride and admit that you need to ratchet down the sensitivity metre a couple of hundred points....

Oh and I take it back about the Sicilians, there's not ONE single case of any sort of violence and death created by mindless, prehistoric-thinking neanderthals that felt the need to avenge some apparent slight to their honour...:eyes: :sarcasm:

[jgraz]

220. Do you even understand what you're saying, or are you just typing random shit at this point?

"You get your knickers in a twist about a fucking PIZZA ad.."

So bigotry in a pizza ad is ok? In what other forums do you think it's allowed?


"Seriously, take a look at the vast numbers of posts in this thread that suggest you get over yourself"

Take a less biased sample. Some people agree, some people don't Only a few are saying "get over yourself" (less than usual on a thread like this), and only one is saying the ad is justified because Sicilians actually are criminals (guess who that is, spoon-boy).


"Oh and I take it back about the Sicilians, there's not ONE single case of any sort of violence and death created by mindless, prehistoric-thinking neanderthals that felt the need to avenge some apparent slight to their honour..."

Here's where the rubber band of your thought process completely snaps. Substitute "blacks" and "gang members" or "jews" and "greedy bankers", and maybe you'll realize the true ugliness of what you just said.

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

229. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Firepit 462]

234. Awesome,

I can't agree with your rage against the frozen pizza industry, but there is no call for what you have attracted. That's an awful lot of personal attack for no reason other than to provoke.

[jgraz]

235. Apparently frozen pizza is the least of our problems

I'm shocked as well at the amount of anti-Italian bigotry that's been brought out by this little post. You should have seen the thread that was deleted - yikes.

[uppityperson]

236. "one post" venting?

Hey jgraz, I can see your point, and understand you are getting frustrated, but you've vented more than 1 post and people are replying to the whole topic, all the insults.

[jgraz]

240. Well it started as one post and then all the bigotry came out

I must admit to being a bit surprised at how many people here seem perfectly comfortable posting slurs against an ethnic group, just because because they aren't on the liberal list of "approved" oppressed peoples.

I made one annoyed post and then responded to people's insults about it. As a result, I've been told I'm disgusting, been called a wop, a dago, and been told that Sicilians deserve any denigrating comments because we all actually are criminals.

If people are wondering why I got annoyed at a stupid pizza ad, all they have to do is read this thread. The ad is not the problem as much as the underlying prejudice it represents.

[uppityperson]

243. True. Godfather's Pizza name has always annoyed me.

And I'm one of those Germanic heritage people.

[jgraz]

255. What really annoys me it that their pizza is so lame

Not to mention the fact that it was started by some whitey-ass white dude from Nebraska.

[jgraz]

263. BTW, Godfather's has NOTHING on Rocky Rococo's in WI

Check this guy out:



The white suit, the big rubber nose, the fake 'stache, and the commercials are even worse than you think they are.

And yes, the pizza sucks ass.

[Darkhawk32]

198. As an Italian, I hear it too. But I shrug it off and know if they get too lippy, I'll stomp them.

[Lisa]

205. what a bizarre ad ... it seems gratuitous

Where are they going with that "family" reference? It doesn't seem to lead to anything. (And if they are trying to make some kind of "mobbed up" connection, there were Irish and Jewish organized crime "families" too, and they had nothing to do with pizza!)

jgraz, feel free to vent. If it's any consolation, I was talking to my social studies class this week about how silly stereotypes can be -- my Italian, East Indian, and Chinese students were nodding emphatically when I mentioned how annoying it is when allegations of sinister ethnic conspiracies are thrown around. And my Thai and Swedish co-workers were angry and humiliated when people made sly comments about "ooh you must really be into sex". (I'm Japanese so I get both the "yakuza" and "geisha" jokes.)

If this is indeed a bogus pizza place, I would say that they are trying to slide by on the enormous contribution made by Italians to North American culture. Perhaps Sicily should do what certain cheese and wine-making regions elsewhere in Europe (Champagne, for example) are doing -- take out a copyright on their name, so it won't be associated with inferior products anymore.

[Union Label]

206. Just fucking WOW

are you ever being overly sensitive. Call the PC police. :sarcasm:

[jgraz]

210. Another argument from ignorance

It's surprising how many people feel compelled to jump in with these kinds of posts. What exactly motivates your response? Do you really think that just because you didn't notice the slur that it can't possibly exist?

[Union Label]

219. Nope not ignorance

But you should calm down a bit and not take everything so personally, I have someone in my "family" that was in the mob SO FUCKING WHAT?

[jgraz]

221. Not personal. Argument from ignorance is a classic logical fallacy.

The "I don't see it so it must not be tue" argument. You're now using another fallacy (I forget the name): "I saw one example where the argument was true, so it must be OK to generalize it".

Both are bogus reasoning.

[ComerPerro]

342. Bogus reasoning. Sorta like, oh, I don't know

over-reacting, taking offense to something that may not even be an insult, and then attacking anyone who tries to bring you back to earth.

Real rational one, you are. So calm and collected. You, my friend, are the Zen master

[ComerPerro]

209. yeah, cause Italians are getting scapegoated all the time

[jgraz]

211. OK, so a limited amount of bigotry is jut fine with you

How many slurs per week should an Italian have to put up with? Is it more or less than Jews or blacks? Or do you base it on the severity of the slur? Maybe I should just shrug off 2 or 3 mob jokes a week, but I only need to swallow one "greaseball" or "wop" comment a month.

You don't need to be "scapegoated" (do you even know what that means?) to have your ethnicity, race or gender insulted. As far as I know, Jews are the only group that is commonly blamed for the sins of others, but many groups are discriminated against in other ways.

[ComerPerro]

216. maybe I will start caring when I hear the same level of contempt for Italians

from everyday Americans that I do for Mexicans (and hispanics in general), muslims and anyone who even remotely looks arab, and most of all homosexuals. And maybe I'll care when you do something like, I dunno, go after The Sopranos.

[jgraz]

223. I doubt it

You seem to only care about bigotry if it's above some limit you have in your mind. Below that level, and it's just fine with you. Or maybe it only counts if someone is the *most* put-upon group. Otherwise, we should just shut up and take it.

[ComerPerro]

230. And I am sure that this ad is severly impairing you life and the way you live it

by posting petty complaints like this bullshit, you mock those who face real discrimination or injustice every day. And quite frankly, I think you are disgusting for doing so. You remind me of College Republicans, and their "reverse affirmative action" bake sales.

[jgraz]

233. So as long as my life isn't severely impaired, you can say whatever you want to me

In fact, just last week I had to smile through our new division head saying "ooh should I be worried" cracks when we were introduced. Of course, that's probably just bullshit to you, and I'm disgusting for even being bothered by it.

As far as Rethugs go, I thought they were the ones who appointed themselves the Deciders when it came to what was discrimination and what wasn't. Who the hell are you to say how my life is affected? Do you go up to rich black people and tell them to get over slavery because their personal life isn't being affected by it?

One of the reasons the mafia took hold in Italian-American neighborhoods was that they were the only ones who would go after whites who used to rape young Italian girls. My grandfather told me stories about being chased and beaten by police when he was a teenager. Is that "real" enough for you? Does that rise to your personal definition of discrimination?

You sound like a typical white liberal who has no fucking clue what ANY group goes through. You just transfer your own white guilt to someone else, just because their skin isn't quite dark enough to qualify as an oppressed group in your eyes.

[ComerPerro]

244. oversensitive much? Like I said, you diminish groups with real problems and issues

with your bitching and moaning about non-issues. Its exteremly insulting.

[jgraz]

256. YOU'RE insulted? How does THAT work?

I actually don't care that much, but I'd have at least liked it to be intentional on my part.

I wonder how many groups have been told they're oversensitive, or that they should just shut up and take it or that they don't have a sense of humor. Who are you to decide that Sicilians aren't worthy of the same consideration as anyone else? Probably someone who's never experienced one iota of prejudice their entire life.

[ComerPerro]

258. What's your next move? Are you gonna compare yourself to Rosa Parks?

[Name removed]

260. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

264. Answer the question: why are YOU insulted by my taking issue with a denigrating stereotype?

[ComerPerro]

268. I answered your question. I find it completely offensive

You just didn't like my answer. But it doesn't change my motivations.

Did I ever tell you you're my hero?

[jgraz]

272. Why?

Are you a civil rights worker? A member of the anti-defamation league? Have you ever done anything in your entire life to further the cause of racial or gender equality?

I'm guessing not, since you haven't the first clue what discrimination is. You're just spouting nonsense to distract from the fact that you look like a bigger fool with each post.

[ComerPerro]

286. Im the fool? I am not the one trying to take on "the man" without any of the cost

[jgraz]

296. Oh my! Another non-sequitor

Keep trying, you may eventually find a subject that you're not completely ignorant of. But I kinda doubt it.

[MN ChimpH8R]

212. Lombardi's in Philly is the best pizza

I've ever eaten, and by miles. When the gods on Olympus get tired of ambrosia, they order pizza from Lombardi's.

Though Minnesotan, I worked on a project in Philly for seven months. Every Monday evening I would order a Lombardi's pizza. Heaven on earth.

Chicago style is good too, but it's on the heavy side. Gino's does rock, though.

[jgraz]

214. I can't even fake the inter-city pizza rivalry

Chicago, NYC, New Haven, it's all good. Anybody who takes pizza seriously is OK by me. If I'm ever in Philly, I'll look up Lombardi's.

[slackmaster]

224. Like most chains, I avoid CPK unless a work-related event requires me to go there

There are always much better options.

[nuxvomica]

225. What offends me is that it's not a true Sicilian pizza

The pizza my mom makes, which she learned how to make from my Dad's Sicilian mother, is square, thick, chewy, has a lot of olive oil, a thin meatless tomato sauce, lots of oregano and grated Romano cheese on top. It's more like a focaccia.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

232. We're addicted to the Garlic Bread Pizza from Digiorno.

It's amazing.
Duckie

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

249. Living in NY in an area with a large Italian American population, I have a plethora of pizzarias.

Lately though, I've been making my own pizza with Pillsbury dough. The reason why I bring that up to you is that yesterday I made garlic bread, cheese stuffed white pizza and it was yummmmmm! I love garlic. :-)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

251. So do we...

But we just don't have the energy to make it homemade, so we get Digiorno. If we lived in NYC, we'd go out and get a slice.
Duckie

[Quixote1818]

237. This is the strangest DU thread I have seen in a long time.

There are children dying, wars going on, the air is being polluted and you feel an urgent need to post this?????


:crazy: :thumbsdown: :banghead: :spray:

[jgraz]

239. Why aren't you out saving the dying children instead of telling me what to post?

It's amazing how many people bring up this silly argument. How much of what you do with your daily life is more important than saving dying children? In fact, how many children have you saved today? This week? Your whole life?

[Quixote1818]

241. You can post this if you want to

but 99 out of 100 people could care less that it has a subtle, affectionate, stereo type, reference to the Mafia. It's all in good fun and I think it's cute! It's meant to be fun. If we can't laugh at ourselves and some of the funny stereo types that are attached to our heritage, what can we laugh at????? EVERY heritage has a stereo type that comes from one thing or another. EVERYONE knows not ALL people of that heritage are like that. It's called being light hearted and having fun.

[jgraz]

242. You do realize how similar your argument is to that used by many apologists for racism

And you would probably be pretty outraged if you saw someone making the same argument toward another, more "accepted" minority.

Hey, if one of my friends or my family wants to kid about the mafia, I'll laugh as much as the next guy. But some dumbfuck ad agency doesn't get to do that just because they're too bereft of creativity to come up with any other way to hawk pizza.

This one ad isn't going to cause Italians to be lynched, but it does make it easier for bosses, job interviewers and just about EVERY clerk and service person I encounter to make the same kind of lame-ass joke. I've gotten it from bellhops, mechanics, my physician, dentist, my manager and my manager's manager's manager. And every friend and girlfriend I've had (literally every one) eventually asks the "so, do you know any mobsters" question.

It was cute the first 50 billion times, but it's starting to get old.

[PerfectSage]

246. So, do you know any mobsters? lol

Where I grew up there were a lot of Italians and the mobsters lived on my street. So I never got to ask: Do you know any mobsters?

[Quixote1818]

247. No, you just don't have a sense of humor

It's that simple.

[jgraz]

254. Dude, you found that ad funny?

So YOU'RE the reason Family Circle and Marmaduke are still in the papers.

[Quixote1818]

301. Dude, it's lighthearted fun, not supposed to be "funny".

But it takes a sense of humor to "get it". :eyes:

[jgraz]

302. How is your argument different from those who tell women to "lighten up" over sexist remarks

After all, it's just lighthearted fun. I mean, it's not really hurting anybody, so what's the problem? Those bitches should really get a sense of humor. :sarcasm: (of course)

Tell me, since when does derogatory stereotyping get a pass because it's "lighthearted"?

[Quixote1818]

307. Because it's not derogatory

There is actually a certain respect and fondness people hold for the Hollywood idea of the mob. It's nostalgic and brings back great memories of old movies like the Godfather. Everyone loves a good gangster character or movie and they separate these characters from the real mobsters.


But, that seems to be going right over your head. It's actually a complement and you are taking it as an insult.


It's like coming up with a pizza that refers to Darth Vader. It's NOT REAL! It's all based on Hollywood characters NOT real Italians. It's all in fun!

[jgraz]

311. Stepin Fetchit was all in fun, as was Frito Bandito

as is the Cleveland Indians' logo. Of course, you probably think those groups should lighten up as well.

[Quixote1818]

338. I am not familiar with the problems of the three examples you brought up

I do vaguely remember hearing something about a problem with the Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians but I don't remember exactly what was so offensive.

There is a big difference between the Mafia and Native American Indians. The Mafia has been glorified by Hollywood and the Native Americans have generally not been.

As far as I am concerned, the Native Americans have plenty to gripe about. We only killed half their people, took most of their land and got rid of most of their food sources.

[ComerPerro]

245. LOL, this is the most pressing issue of our day.

[jgraz]

252. So you only comment on the most pressing issue of the day?

WTF are you doing on this thread then?

[ComerPerro]

253. well, its the most pressing issue, naturally. And it is very important to me

[Nikki Stone1]

257. Threads on discrimination are common at DU. Why is this one laughable?

Because it's about Sicilians?

[ComerPerro]

259. because, quite honestly, it reads like satire.

All the problems in the world, all the oppressed people, and this is what we complain about?

[jgraz]

261. All the problems in the world, all the oppressed people

and you have to come on this thread and demonstrate your ignorance to everyone.

[ComerPerro]

265. you show your irrelevence and self indulgence by posting this in the first place

[Nikki Stone1]

266. Self indulgence?

Please explain.

[ComerPerro]

269. its extremely self-righteous and narrow minded to think this ranks up there with

anything like equal pay for equal work, civil rights, gay marriage, or anything even remotely close to that. Sounds more like the pathetic ramblings of a privelaged person with too much free time. Maybe envy for those who are actually oppresesd, jealous of the spotlight. So, they go and post a self-righteous "look at me" thread over a bullshit non-issue.

[jgraz]

271. Again with the straw man

I never made these comparisons, you did. Your posts get more and more ridiculous with every iteration.

You never did answer the question: What is your criteria for someone to complain about derogatory ethnic comment? Here's what I think: you don't have any, you reacted out of ignorance, and now that you realize that you look like an ass you're changing the subject at every opportunity.

[ComerPerro]

278. I reacted out of ignorance. Tell me, hero, what have you done to champion your cause

Did you even write an email to the offending advertisers? Are you going to start a march? Have you been emailing HBO in protest of their show the Soproanos? Write an angry letter to the Academy Awards demanding they take back Copola's Oscars for his offensive works? Who do you honestly think you're helping here?

[Nikki Stone1]

292. Actually, I have sent emails on certain causes like this one.

....

[ComerPerro]

297. such as?

[Nikki Stone1]

304. The following:

Against the Snickers ad
Against various ads harmful to women
Against the Taco Bell "run for the border" ad which I considered to be a veiled anti-Mexican reference.

There are others.


I also sign various petitions and DU polls when see the request. I get petitions in my email for various causes which I also sign.

I'm not much of an activist these days, but I do what I can on the internet.

[jgraz]

293. Keep digging

I'm actually in touch with the NIAF right now on this particular ad. My grandfather did a lot of work with them after he was shut out of the suburban Chicago housing market by covenants that wouldn't allow sales to Catholics. Of course, he wasn't sold into bondage, so who really gives a fuck that he couldn't find a place for his family to live?

And really, was it that bad that my uncle Tony, a decorated veteran of Bastogne, had to start his own business because no one would hire a Sicilian after WWII? Really, why should it bother me that 60 years later we're still being compared to criminals?

[ComerPerro]

298. like I said, you better start demanding that Copola give his Oscars back

[jgraz]

299. Yes that makes perfect sense

You do realize that at this point I'm just responding to you for the entertainment you're providing. It's not often you see someone embarrass themselves so completely.

[Nikki Stone1]

312. Film makers are so often limited by the stereotypes around them

When an African American makes a film like "New Jack City" or "Boyz N the Hood" should he be chastised for feeding the stereotype, or is he only reflected the narrow minded limits of Hollywood?

Actually that is a good question in general. I can see both sides of it.

[ComerPerro]

323. sorta like advertising execs, you think?

[Nikki Stone1]

350. Thank you for reengaging in the conversation at this time.

I would say no, not exactly, to your question. As an Italian American or African-American filmmaker, one gets pigeonholed at times. This is changing somewhat. Not every African American director has to do "New Jack City" anymore. Advertising execs are not pigeonholed the same way. They have more freedom to shape their product's image. So, they can choose a very positive depiction to sell a pizza, for example, or a very negative one. In the CA Pizza Kitchen case, they have deliberately chosen to use a negative stereotype. They didn't have to do so. They are not reflecting themselves or their lives, they are selling a pizza to the American public.

[ComerPerro]

361. So certain stereotypes are ok, if the director "has to do it".

but, lets see, the idea of sicilian pizza incites ideas of mafia ties, lets say due to society and the media, for the same reason that the director or filmmaker sees the ties.

Are you telling me that there is a different, higher standard that these advertisers are subject to?

[Nikki Stone1]

309. Great response.

People forget that discrimination is not a limited phenomenon.

BTW, is it true that one of the Ks in KKK stands for Catholics?

[Nikki Stone1]

276. How many GD threads rank up there with equal pay for equal work and gay marriage?

Look at the threads here. Some of them boggle the mind. This one is actually quite tame and has a decent, anti-discriminatory premise.

Now look at some other threads: How about "Are there liberal idiots"? Or maybe the umpteenth argument over cigarettes?

[ComerPerro]

279. this one, like smoking threads, mocks people who face REAL discrimination

[Nikki Stone1]

283. Smoking threads mock those who face real discrimination?

I don't think that is the intent of the people who post them.

Actually, the Cherokee nation this week mocked those who faced real discrimination by cutting out of their nation all with African American ancestry whose family had originally been owned as slaves by the Cherokees themselves. That, to me, was appalling. I have less sympathy for the Cherokee as a result, especially the issue seemed to center around money and tribal funds. These tribal funds, many coming from Indian Casinos, were being wildly mismanaged. There was an audit of some tribes over at Bureau of Indian Affairs because of misuse of casino profits by tribal elders.

[ComerPerro]

284. Intended or not, they do mock others

and this thread is exactly the same, to me.

[Nikki Stone1]

290. Why are taking this thread so personally? Do you feel it hurts your own cause?

My view is that fighting discrimination and negative stereotyping in any form helps the principle advance. I agree with those who found the Snickers ad problematic and the website for the ad very anti-gay. (Without the website, the ad could have been taken in a number of ways, and it certainly was taken by the fundies as being pro-gay). But I was all for the ad being nixed and I am not buying any M&M/Mars products because of it.

If we as progressives fight for each other, we can advance each others' causes. If we fight against each other, we succumb to divide and conquer and let the forces of evil win. That's how I see it.

[ComerPerro]

295. I am taking nothing personally. I am replying to those who replied to me

You are the one who replied to me without provocation.

[jgraz]

303. So saying that you're "insulted" and "disgusted" is NOT taking it personally?

Jeez, I'd hate to see what you're like when you really get involved. Unless that's the point when you start actually making sense...

[ComerPerro]

347. Actually, correction, I am taking it personally now

I am tired of the double standard here. Some posters have to abide by the rules, others do not. I have seen you make multiple personal attacks, direct insults and attacks, all over this thread directed at anyone who had the audacity to not see things your way and kiss your ass. But very few of your posts which are in conflict with the rules of this site have been removed.

So, yes, I take offense to that.

[Nikki Stone1]

305. You clearly have a horse in this race, ComerPerro. Something is bothering you

Read my previous post. It sounds to me like you don't support the principle of anti-discrimination in all cases, only in a chosen few.

[ComerPerro]

334. no horse in this race. I just want to be left the hell alone. I'm not the only person who

thought that the OP was overblown and way off base. And I wasn't the first to say they were being oversensitive. But you and the OP keep replying to me, escalating to more and more inflammatory levels each time. I am simply replying to challenges and attacks and demands from the two of you, because I feel if they go unanswered then your insults will stand on record here without rebuttal.

[jgraz]

336. Funny way to ask to be left alone

Flaunting your ignorance like a badge of honor. Instead of rebutting the supposed insults, why don't you try and rebut some of the substance of what was said -- like the actual history of anti-Italian bigotry in this country that you said never happened.

[ComerPerro]

339. never said it never happend. And I can't possibly diminish anti-Italian bigotry

any more than the OP did by bringing up trivial BS like this.

[Nikki Stone1]

351. Why did you think it was overblown? And how have I been inflammatory?

If anything, I am trying to get a handle on how you think.

[Nikki Stone1]

262. Why does it read like satire?

I remember a full week of the Snickers bar ad--was it anti-gay, pro-gay, anti-anti-gay or just stupid?

I remember a full week (which still continues occasionally) about the word "articulate" .

Did those read like satire to you?

Is it inconceivable to you that some Sicilian or Italian Americans might be insulted by mafia references? Even that awful neocon scum, Dinesh D'Souza admits that fewer than one percent of Italian Americans are involved in organized crime.

So is it only satire when it's about a group that isn't usually vocal?

[ComerPerro]

267. its a non issue, they are not a historically opressed ethnic group, and furthermore

if you can't distinguish between treatment of blacks, hispanics, and natives in this country, compared to this one petty bullshit complaint, then you really are completely out of touch.

[jgraz]

270. So exactly how oppressed do you have to be before you can complain about it?

Do we all need to check with you first, or just me?

And while we're at it, where the FUCK do you get off telling ME what MY history is? You know nothing about discrimination against Sicilians, either here or in Italy. I've given you concrete examples, but I guess unless my ancestors were held as slaves or wiped out in a genocide, you get "disgusted" and "insulted" if we complain.

Why don't you try that shtick on the next white woman who complains about sexist comments in the workplace? Or is that another group that gets your clueless white liberal stamp of approval?

[Nikki Stone1]

274. Hey jgraz, don't let his ignorance get to you. He doesn't know much about the history of immigration

The Italians and the Irish had a really awful time in this country. The mafia stereotype is an unfair media depiction and these kinds of false depictions are always deserving of attack .

[jgraz]

275. He's not getting to me at all -- but you are

You're making me look like a patzer with your incredibly articulate and well-informed respsonses. I'm just gonna sit back and let you work. :pals:

[Nikki Stone1]

277. You better make sure there's a nice chianti at the end of all this.

:)

[jgraz]

281. See post #35

Next time you're in town, I'll save you a slice. Or two. ;)

[Nikki Stone1]

291. Do you always seduce with pizza and a good wine?

:)

Seriously, if I'm ever in Chicago, expect one very femmy woman who likes her chianti. And you'd better teach me how to make that pizza. You can't find a decent one in SoCal. They seriously think Roundtable is good pizza out here!

[jgraz]

294. No, sometimes I use a nice puttanesca

BTW, I'm in NoCal, so you don't have to tell me about the abomination that is Round Table :scared:

[Nikki Stone1]

300. Thank God somebody gets the Roundtable thing

What a horrible thing to do to dough!

(And you'll have to translate.)

[ComerPerro]

282. yeah, and you know what? you do your ancestors an extreme disservice

by pretending that your "plight", as you sit in your home on your computer, stroking off to fantasies of oppression, is even remotely close to what people before you went through.

So what I would like to know is, where the fuck do you get off seeing yourself as some sort of spokesman for oppressed Italians and Sicilans, when you don't even know what true oppression is in the first place?

[Nikki Stone1]

285. How does jgraz do his ancestors a disservice?

He is merely showing how at least one negative stereotype has not died, still affecting perceptions of his group. How is that doing a disservice to his previous ancestors and their experience of even worse stereotyping and discrimination?

[ComerPerro]

287. lets see, being refused work and fair housing and pay, or

glancing at an ad for a pizza place making a thinly veiled mafia reference?

[Nikki Stone1]

289. That bothers you, but how does that insult his ancestors?

It bothers you for your own personal reasons. You feel insulted that someone you consider "white" has a problem with the media depiction of his group. It sounds like you don't want to see that jgraz might have a case here. Certainly, it's not the same as being denied housing in a middle class neighborhood--although this was very common in the early and mid 20th century for Italian-Americans and other groups. The Italian immigrants who came here were also very poor (like the Irish); Italy had just been through a war of reunification, and many in the south were abandoned by the government of Victor Emmanuel, a nothern king. To save their very lives, many came to the US and were treated abysmally in the overcrowded tenements of the Northeast US. They were poor and treated horribly. There were not a lot of publically subsized ESL classes available, so many adult immigrants learned little English. Yet, there is documentation of IQ tests in English being administered to Italian immigrants who had not learned the language. These tests were used to show that Italian Americans were in fact substandard and would damage the Northern European race.

Also, if you have time, you might look up the Sacco/Vanzetti case http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/sacvan.html.

The discrimination and hatred was real. This mafia thing is a remnant of all that and should really go the way of the dinosaurs. Unfortunately, the media keeps it alive. Jgraz is actually just continuing the fight of his ancestors, not insulting them.

[jgraz]

329. I'm going to bookmark this reply

The new gold standard for dumbest post I've ever seen.

[Nikki Stone1]

273. Actually, Italian Americans WERE a historically discriminated against group

as were Irish-Americans. It may seem like ancient history to you but the Irish had to put up with signs saying "No Dogs or Irish" and "No Irish Need Apply." Italians were often discriminated against in jobs, housing, college admissions (as were Jews until the College Boards were instituted) and Italians were one of the original groups targeted by the eugnenics movement in this country, as were other Southern and Eastern Europeans who were considered low-level people who reproduced too many and too quickly.

The Museum of Tolerance once had a great exhibit on stereotyping. Words like "dark, dirty, lazy, stupid, dangerous, irresponsibly reproductive..." etc. were applied to almost every group that came into this country, as they are now being applied to folks from south of the border. The Museum of Tolerance did an incredible job showing how the same stereotype moved from group to group as new immigrants settled in the US.

The mafia thing is discriminatory against Sicilian Americans and it makes it difficult sometimes. Look at TV and movies: when do you see a popular show about Italians that isn't mob related? The only one I can think of is "Everybody Loves Raymond" and that's because an Italian-American comic co-wrote the show with his own real world experiences. Even then, there were some obligatory mob references, but they were only in passing.

Seriously, if a group considers itself to be hurt by a particular depiction, then they have a right to complain.

[ComerPerro]

280. oh, nonono, not NEARLY on the scale of the Irish, Chinese, and hispanics today

[Nikki Stone1]

288. Not sure of the logic of your comment ComerPerro. I did mention the Irish in the post if you read it

You can read more about the anti Irish discrimination in Tip O'Neill's book, "Speaker of the House", where he mentions the anti Irish signs and the discrimination in his native Boston.

The Chinese have a long history of discrimination in this country. California had some notorious anti-Asian legislation, against both the Chinese and Japanese immigrants.

The hispanics have a different history in California, having actually owned this land before the US, but anti-hispanic prejudice is rampant at the moment. Yet, as the Museum of Tolerance exhibit pointed out, the stereotypes used against Latinos are very much the same as those used against the Italians and other non-Anglo groups.

Playing a game of "who is the more oppressed victim" ends up in personal vindictiveness and shouting matches. What is more logical to do is argue against stereotyping and discrimination everywhere one sees it. I am arguing a principle here, and I see this principle in this thread.

[DemBones DemBones]

325. "Don't know much about a history book"

do you?


"The fate of numerous Italian Americans was no different than that of other ethnic groups targeted by lynch mobs. The most infamous lynching of Italians occurred on March 14, 1891 in New Orleans. This event claimed eleven victims and was one of the largest multiple lynchings in American history. The catalyst for this tragedy was the unsolved murder of popular city police superintendent David Hennessy. Hennessy’s murder led to a roundup of the “usual suspects” -- in this case Italians. Those detained, immigrants from Sicily and the southern portions of Italy -- possessed swarthy complexions and were viewed with suspicion and contempt by the white protestant elite ruling New Orleans. Akin to Negroes, Italians were “not quite white” and subject to a racial prejudice only slightly subtler -- mingled with a baseless and deliberately orchestrated Mafia scare associating most Italian Americans with a vast criminal organization that did not exist in the New Orleans of that era."

"The morning of March 14 was bright and sunny. By ten o’clock, a crowd of thousands was gathered by the Parish Jail, with many of them shouting, “Yes, yes, hang the dagoes!” The prison was soon attacked by a carefully selected band culled by the mobs’ leaders comprised of about twenty-five well-armed men. With battering rams ringing in their ears, the prisoners were both trapped and doomed. In the prison yard where several Italians were clustered together at one end, the hit squad of lynchers opened fire from about twenty feet away. More than a hundred rifle shots and shotgun blasts were fired into six helpless men, tearing their bodies apart. When the firing stopped, the squad inspected their victims. A man saw Pietro Monasterio’s hand twitch and yelled, “Hey, this one’s alive!” “Give him another load, “ another gunman answered. “Can’t, I ain’t got the heart.” Then one of the men walked up to the body, aimed a shotgun point-blank, and literally blew the top of Monasterio’s head away. Someone laughed. There were two or three cheers. One or two men turned their faces away, looking sick."

So it went. Joseph P. Macheca, Antonio Scaffidi, and Antonio Marchesi were shot while turning to face their pursuers. Marchesi was struck in the head by a bullet. As he raised his right hand to shield himself a shotgun charge blew off and went on to disintegrate the top of his skull. Yet he did not die until nine hours later, lying all the time where he fell.

More gunmen found Manuel Polizzi. Sitting on the floor in a corner of a cell, muttering to himself. Dragged by five men into a corridor he was shot two or three times while staring with wild eyes at nothing in particular. Antonio Bagnetto was found in another cell, pretending to be dead. He too was shot. Several of the men’s corpses were displayed to the mob outside the prison and hung on lampposts for all to see. Witnesses said that the cheers were nearly deafening.

http://www.americanlynching.com/infamous-old.html#1891



In the United States, Italian immigrants were subject to extreme prejudice, racism, and, in many cases, violence. During the 1800s and early 20th Century, Italian Americans, being seen as non-anglo and often times non-white, were the second most likely group to be lynched. One of the largest mass lynchings in American history involved the lynching of eleven Italians in the city of New Orleans. The Italians, who were thought to have assassinated police chief David Hennessey, were placed in a jail cell before being brutally murdered by a mob, with witnesses claiming that the cheers "were nearly deafening." Reporting on the incident, one newspaper reported "The little jail was crowded with Sicilians, whose low, receding foreheads, dark skin, repulsive countenances and slovenly attire proclaimed their brutal nature." According to one historian in New Orleans: "Akin to Negroes, Italians were not white and subject to a racial prejudice only slightly subtler -- mingled with a baseless and deliberately orchestrated Mafia scare...." In fact, in many areas of the South, Italians were "semisegregated."

In the 1920s, two Italian anarchists, Sacco and Vanzetti, experienced prejudice and ultimately death due to their Italian ancestry and extreme political views. Though not lynched, Sacco and Vanzetti were subject to a mishandled trial, and most historians agree that the judge, jury, and prosecution were extremely biased against the Italian immigrants. Sacco and Vanzetti were eventually put to death, convicted of a murder despite the lack of evidence against them.

Violence against Italians has also taken place in Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Austria, Sweden, and Switzerland, as well as many other places where Italians have settled. Anti-Italianism in Switzerland is often attributed to the death of recent Italian immigrants such as Alfredo Zardini.

In Australia, anti-Italian riots have occurred on numerous occasions since Italian immigrants, or "wogs," first began coming to the country. Large riots against Italian immigrants have occurred in Gwalia, Leonora, Coolgardie, and other Australian cities. Recently, in the 2005 Cronulla riots, Mediterranean immigrants, including Italians, but especially Middle-Easterners, were targeted by rioters.


That's from Wikipedia. I didn't copy the link but you can do a search.

[Name removed]

326. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

332. Some Inconvenient Truth. I posted it as a thread, too,

and have already been told that there's violence in Italy against Italians.

:banghead:

[ComerPerro]

335. Meh, you don't know Jack., To you, your ancestors are just a punchline,

fodder for your own self-righteousness cause.

[jgraz]

337. You keep exceeding all possible expectations of foolishness

You've already been exposed as a complete charlatan wrt your supposed knowledge of anti-Italian bigotry and Nikki's done a pretty good job of destroying all of your supposed "arguments", yet you keep coming back for more. It's like watching a car accident in slow motion.

[ComerPerro]

340. and you've been doing a somewhat reasonable job convincing some here

that you are actually a decent, caring human being. Nothing like an armchair activist getting offended by a very non-threatening ad, and then suddenly calling up ghosts of past abuse (that they never witnessed or endured) to attempt to bring validity to their cause. Is that the only way you can find self-worth?

[jgraz]

348. The only way I find self-worth?

Not really, but at least I have some. I wonder about you, though. Any functional adult with a molecule of dignity would have long ago apologized for your silly, ill-informed posts and slouched back to some less mentally taxing forum, like maybe neopets or how-to-be-a-complete-idiot-without-really-trying.com

[ComerPerro]

354. I have absolutely nothing to apologize for.

You started an inflammatory thread, and even if it wouldn't have been a guaranteed flame war, you made it one. And its not just me. You have been in long, drawn out arguments with several posters on this thread. You are the common denominator. You need to learn to play well with others.

And by the way, my opinion of you and your thoughts on this advertisment fit the concensus of a very large majority of those who have commented on this thread.

If anyone is owed an apology, it is those you needlessly flamed and attacked.

[Nikki Stone1]

357. Have to step in here ComerPerro. The thread has a legit premise

Discrimination is not a good way to sell products. The moral and logical point is quite a common one on DU, and it should not be ignored just because it doesn't apply to a group you care personally about.

[ComerPerro]

359. there is no verifiable discrimination here.

[Nikki Stone1]

363. A veiled Mafia reference isn't negative stereotyping?

That kind of thing reinforces prejudices.

[Nikki Stone1]

352. I can't speak for others, but my ancestors suffered a great deal in this country

and there are many family patterns that come from the history of discrimination and poverty that affect me and mine to this day. Hardly a punchline.

[ComerPerro]

356. way to cheapen their struggle

[Nikki Stone1]

358. Cheapen? How?

I don't get what you're saying.

[GaYellowDawg]

306. When compared with good barbeque, ALL pizza sucks!

Every tomato that was ever used for pizza sauce envies the blessed tomato that is in good ole Memphis style barbeque sauce and drizzled over pulled pork or ribs!!

[Nikki Stone1]

308. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Depends on how good that barbeque is

:)

[jgraz]

310. Goddammit, now I'm hungry for barbecue

In NoCal, your statement is absolutely correct. Oakland has some great barbecue joints, but there is NO place around here where the pizza doesn't suck.

And BTW, there's more than enough tomatoes to go around. Next time you're in Chicago you should check out Leona's: they have kickass bbq AND pizza (not to mention lasagna to freaking DIE for).

Goddamit, now I'm hungry for lasagna.

[DemBones DemBones]

333. I make great pizza from scratch -- I think you'd like it -- but

I used to live in Memphis so I know what you mean about barbecue. I can't have a favorite food when there are so many good things to choose from. :shrug:

[Terri S]

313. ahem.... and now a word from this Brooklyn Sicilian....

http://www.gotwavs.com//0028375953/MP3S/Movies/Moonstruck/snap.mp3

[Nikki Stone1]

314. Cute, but that was a movie character. The actress is Greek American, I believe

:)

[jgraz]

315. Armenian, I think...

but Moonstruck is the only American movie I can think of where none of the Italians are mobsters.

[Nikki Stone1]

318. Oh, was that Cher? Then yes, she is half Armenian.

For some reason it sounded like Olympia Dukakis, but the sound sucks on my computer. :)

[Terri S]

320. lol....

oh for crissakes, everyone. I KNOW who that was... I used the soundbite to say what THIS (as in ME) Brooklyn Sicilian wanted to say about this whole thread!!!! LOL!

so much for the attempt to lighten it up in here... ;)

[Nikki Stone1]

321. Ah. Ok. Gotcha

:donut:

[electron_blue]

316. LOL, I thought "family" meant there were different toppings on different parts of the

pizza for everyone's different tastes.

I never would have gotten that out of this, but then I'm not Siciliana and haven't had to put up with what you've had to all your life.

[jgraz]

317. Ironically, this thread is some of the worst I've gotten in a while

I haven't had someone come right out and call me a "wop" since high school.

[Nikki Stone1]

319. But there IS no discrimination against Italian Americans, according to some

So who cares?

:sarcasm:

[jgraz]

324. I can't help notice that "some" have run out of answers to your queries

Actual information and logic can be so hard to take. ;)

[Nikki Stone1]

328. Yeah, that happens sometimes.

:)

[jgraz]

331. Well, you've certainly taught me a bunch about Italian-American history

Before this thread, I really only knew my own family's history and experiences. I had no idea the bigotry against Italians had been so wide-spread and vicious.

[Nikki Stone1]

341. Hey there's a great book called "La Storia"

It was written by Italian American scholars on the East Coast. I think UPenn and somewhere in New York. A great book for looking at the Italian American experience.

http://www.amazon.com/Storia-Centuries-Italian-American-Experience/dp/0060924411/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-4527372-6312136?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173588446&sr=1-1

[Quixote1818]

343. I am sure Italians were discriminated against

and thats a horrible thing. However, the reference on the Pizza box is not derogatory toward Italians. It's in reference to the glorified idea of the Mafia that Hollywood has created. It's just a lighthearted, fun gesture that many Americans identify with because of shows like the Godfather and Good-fellas. If anything Hollywood has glorified the Mafia to where many Americans have a positive feeling toward the "fictional" Mafia characters.

[Nikki Stone1]

355. It is derrogatory to Sicilians. Hollywood has perpetuated it in so many ways

It might be lighthearted to you because it's not your stereotype. You haven't been saddled with it.

[Quixote1818]

360. The difference is the "family" reference isn't rooted in prejudice

It doesn't come from prejudice but from Americans familiarity with the mobster movies they love. Sorry if it irritates you but don't call it something it isn't. It has nothing to do with prejudice or hate and everything to do with Hollywood's glorifying mobster movies. It's as American as Apple Pie, baseball and Chevrolet. If anything it's more of an affection toward Italians. There is ZERO prejudice involved here.

[Nikki Stone1]

344. And this one is really intriguing: "Are Italians White?"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415934516/ref=reg_hu-wl_list-recs/102-4527372-6312136

This book cuts to the heart of the similarities and the differences between Italian Americans and African Americans, which historically has been a volatile mix...I applaud this insightful scrutiny. -- Spike Lee


Book Description
When Italian immigrants landed on American shores they were outsiders: dark in complexion, culturally different, and unable to speak English. Over time the vibrant community assimilated and moved from being ethnically suspect to being racially privileged as America divided into black and white.

This dazzling collection of original essays from some of the country's leading thinkers asks the rather intriguing question - Are Italians White? Each piece carefully explores how, when and why whiteness became important to Italian Americans, and the significance of gender, class and nation to racial identity.
From tales of immigration to the stormy relationship between Italians and blacks, the volume presents a dynamic, insightful look at integration, community identity, radicalism, urban politics and creative expression. The authors also explore critical moments in community conflict from the murder of Yusef Hawkins in Bensonhurst to Frank Sinatra's visit to Italian Harlem in the 1940s.

In the tradition of groundbreaking works like How the Irish Became White and How Jews Became White Folks, Are Italians White? is sure to become a landmark work that defines and adds to the dialogue on the distinct relationship that Italian Americans have had throughout American history to both racialized discrimination and racial privilege.

[ComerPerro]

345. "some" of us actually have to follow forum rules, and aren't allowed to call out others

and make personal attacks, sometimes insulting the intelligence of several members of this community at once.

By the way, most of the "queries" have been answered and refuted, you just don't want to see it.

[Nikki Stone1]

349. ComerPerro, where have you answered my questions?

Seriously. I see no answers and I figured you simply had decided not to engage in conversation

[ComerPerro]

362. see above, the section about filmmakers vs pizza chains.

looks like you saw it just now though ;)

[Nikki Stone1]

364. Saw and answered that. But the real meat you haven't answered

See above.

[Quixote1818]

353. I am just not seeing how this "family" thing is looked upon as a negative

view of Italian Americans by the general population. As I have been pointing out, Hollywood has glorified the Mafia to where Americans have a soft spot for gangster movies and colorful Italian character. Maybe Italians were discriminated against at one time, but today Americans LOVE Italians and love the mobster shows and characters. It's all in good fun. It's no different from Europeans thinking Americans are Cowboys or where blue jeans.

I don't connect Italians with the mob but when someone puts a fun mobster gesture on a pizza box I find it charming and as a complement to peoples love for the Hollywood view of the Mob. If it weren't for shows like the Sopranos or The Godfather, no one would be using terms like "family" in reference to the mob. This all comes from Hollywood and show-business. It's not at all rooted in any kind of prejudice toward Italians.

[Ediacara]

365. Locking

This thread has strayed away from civility, and become a flame fest.