END to Global Warming!! CO2 Levels Back To Pre-industrial Levels By Adding Lime To Seawater **...

[masmdu]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080721001742.htm

Scientists say they have found a workable way of reducing carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere by adding lime to seawater. And they think it has the potential to dramatically reverse CO2 accumulation in the atmosphere, reports Cath O'Driscoll in SCI's Chemistry & Industry magazine.

-- and adding calcium hydroxide to seawater will also mitigate the effects of ocean acidification, so it should have a positive impact on the marine environment.'

[crikkett]

1. the fish are *so* going to love having lime thrown into their water. n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

10. Lime is no different than calcified remains

of corals, etc. This seems like an idea that might help if done correctly.

[jtrockville]

2. Can the limeys just toss their rinds into the sea?

[Squatch]

3. *Lime* not limes

[masmdu]

6. Of course, the pic was just a joke...margaritas anybody?

[Bandit]

15. Apparently very few here got it though

:shrug:

[tkmorris]

4. What effect would there be on the ocean's biosphere?

Not asking you per se, but that is the question I'd like to see answered thoroughly before such a thing is attempted. The net effect would be to return the atmosphere to pre-industrial levels of CO2, but it would do so by putting that excess CO2 into the oceans instead of the atmosphere. Everything I have read to date argues that this is a very bad idea.

[dysfunctional press]

26. as long as it gets the human race another day's existence on the planet...who cares?

something tells me that it would be unworkable by orders of magnitude, as far as the amount of limestone that would have to be mined, ferried, & dumped in order to have any real effect. they say it's "workable", but on paper, LOTS of things are...they don't really mention just how much limestone would have to be added, and/or where it would have to be done...:shrug:

and i almost forgot, this goes along with the subject line- :sarcasm:

[Lex]

5. "The Doctrine of Unforeseen Consequences"

Someone should look into it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. Yep. The iron seeding folk had everyone worked up over their miracle cure and

it turned out there would be problems if they went through with it.

[groovedaddy]

7. What happens if you add gin & tonic? ;-> n.t

[Jackpine Radical]

8. I think you're using the wrong fruit to represent that idea.

Any major intervention like that is gonna have unforeseen consequences. The gasoline engine was hailed in its time as the final answer to the horseshit-in-the-streets problem.

[Javaman]

9. Add gin and you will have one happy world!!! LOL nt

[lonestarnot]

11. And Nemo will never find his way home.

[comtec]

12. I had to double-check that this wasnt from teh Onion!

it really sounds inplausible

[Turbineguy]

13. That will really hit

the price of margaritas hard.

[lame54]

16. There will be a lime shortage - then what are the mobsters going to do?

[Indenturedebtor]

17. As was pointed out in the env/eng forum -

You get lime by baking limestone for two hours which releases the CO2 from the limestone lol.

Not to mention that you would probably end up coating corals, etc with fine dust meh. And probably suck all of the local CO2 out of the water so that plankton can't use it for photosynthesis.

[Xithras]

18. Well, those can be mitigated.

The first concern isn't really a concern at all, since the article itself explains how they're working around that. By the time everything is balanced, you still have a 50% net CO2 reduction.

The second concern is easily dealt with by spreading the lime in deeper ocean areas away from sensitive coral habitat. By carefully selecting the dumping area, you can prevent lime from drifting into regions where it can do damage.

Similarly, your third concern can be dealt with the same way. Plankton are not present in every part of the ocean, and the seas already contain large areas that naturally contain little life (marine biologists refer to them as underwater deserts). These would provide an ideal location to dump the lime.

It's already been pointed out MANY TIMES that even a global human extintion TODAY wouldn't stop global warming. There's too much CO2 in the air, and the Earth will continue heating up for the next century no matter what we do at this point. We can either accept that (and the distruptions/extinctions that go along with it) or we can attempt proactive countermeasures like this one. Personally, I'd like to save the polar bears.

[Indenturedebtor]

19. So long as things are modeled and tested... we may not have much to lose before long n/t

[Disturbed]

20. This sounds like a good idea. I hope most Nations will

contribute to this effort.

[eppur_se_muova]

21. AW JEEZ ... NOT THIS SHIT AGAIN!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=154800&mesg_id=154873

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=70029&mesg_id=70029

http://www.wickedsunshine.com/WagePeace/Election2004/Images/AwJeez,NotThisShitAgain!.jpg

[masmdu]

24. Um...read the article & #18 above ...it explanes how it gets around your objections...

see post #18 above

[eppur_se_muova]

25. No, it doesn't explain anything. It simply makes a claim that it works, without explaining why.

It's easy to see what the flaw probably is, though.

They CLAIM (without explaining) that Ca(OH)₂ in seawater will absorb twice as much CO₂ as was expelled when CaCO₃ (limestone, etc.) was heated to form CaO (which subsequently reacts with H₂O to form Ca(OH)₂). This would seem to violate the Law of Conservation of Mass, UNLESS the reaction by which CO₂ is absorbed is not the reverse of the reaction by which it is expelled. Again, the reason for this is perfectly well known, well understood chemistry (I first read about these reactions in 3rd grade or so, they're that elementary). When a dilute solution of base (a source of OH^-) is treated with CO₂, the two react at first to form "bicarbonate", more formally known as hydrogen carbonate anion:

OH^- + CO₂ --> HCO₃^-

If there is more base present, a reaction will occur with the (very weakly acidic) bicarbonate to form carbonate:

OH^- + HCO₃^- --> H₂O + CO₃⁼

However, if the ratio of CO₂ to base is high, the second reaction may not occur to a great extent, so you could end up with a solution of bicarbonate instead of carbonate. Now, it turns out that CaCO₃ is essentially insoluble in water, so if carbonate forms, it will precipitate out as CaCO₃. Calcium bicarbonate, on the other hand, is water-soluble. So let's look at what happens when dilute Ca(OH)₂ is treated with an excess of CO₂:

Ca(OH)₂ (aq) + 2CO₂ --> Ca(HCO₃)₂ (aq)

Hey, that's TWO molecules of CO₂ for each "molecule" (details, doesn't matter) of Ca(OH)₂. So everything's hunky-dory, right? Not quite. Unfortunately, all the reactions shown are reversible, and constantly re-equilibrating, so if even a small amount of carbonate ion forms, it will precipitate out as CaCO₃. So what really happens is that, at first, CO₂ dissolves to form a solution of bicarbonate, but, as long as calcium ions are around, that bicarbonate will eventually "disproportionate" to form carbonate which then precipitates, and good old LeChatelier's Principle then tells you that will drive the disproportionation all the way to the right:

2HCO₃^- <--> CO₃⁼ + H₂CO₃ (unstable, forms CO₂ + H₂O)

So while dilute limewater may APPEAR to dissolve twice as much CO2 at first, all you have to do is wait, and half that CO₂ will come right back out of solution. (Concentrated limewater will begin to form a precipitate much faster -- if you blow through a straw into a solution of Ca(OH)₂, you can watch the CaCO₃ precipitate.)

If you were to write that last equation backward, it would show carbonate reacting with carbonic acid (CO₂ in solution) to form soluble bicarbonate. That is precisely what happens when CO₂-acidified rainwater attacks limestone or marble and causes it to dissolve, forming caves and corroding monuments and buildings. That reaction is also reversible, as a result of which CaCO₃ will precipitate out further downstream. One place where you can see this process in action is at a geyser or hot spring -- the CO₂-charged hot water dissolves limestone underground, but on heating, the bicarbonate disproportionates more rapidly, and so CaCO₃ precipitates out around the outlet of the geyser or spring, as the CO₂ escapes to the atmosphere.

Again, this is all perfectly well-known chemistry, but easily ignored by someone eager to raise investment capital.

[Nihil]

27. Thank you for spelling it out so patiently (in the hope that this dumb idea will stay dead)

Note that the above only explains the folly from the product side ...
it doesn't account for the CO2 being *added* to the atmosphere by the
process of heating up the limestone in the first place (i.e., not just
from driving off CO2 from the limestone but from the consumption of
fuel to heat the limestone up).

As was the case for the "let's dump iron filings in the ocean" scam,
this is just another con-trick searching for investors.

:banghead:

[eppur_se_muova]

28. Maybe we should let the evolution fight go for awhile and just ...

battle for the Conservation of Mass and Energy. :) The fundies have nothing against chemistry, but since it's not in the Bible, a reality show, or a music video, a lot of Americans don't know anything about it.

[TheMightyFavog]

22. You put de lime in de ocean and it soak da carbon up...

:hide:

[dems_rightnow]

23. Nilsson always had a plan!

[Hugabear]

29. Fuck that.

I don't know how I feel about these "miracle cures" to global climate change. I fear that it would just give Big Oil the excuse it needs to keep poluting.