Did I do wrong?

[ThomWV]

Last week one evening we were at my son's place where my sister-in-law was visiting. My wife and I were there, my son and his lady as well as their child, and my son's two daughters from an earlier relationship. We sat down to a really nice dinner when SIL says "Anyone mind if I say Grace?" I said "Yes!"

My wife, son and I are all athiests, my son's lady (born and raised in India) is Hindu, and the children have been kept as far away from Christianity as my powers have allowed. I thought it was an insult to everyone there for her to babble christian nonsense over the food and said so.

Right or wrong?

[babylonsister]

1. Hmmm. What ever happened to tolerance? You demand it. nt

[lame54]

7. .

[gratuitous]

12. Apparently . . .

Babbling christian nonsense hurts the taste of food. Or something. Or the 10 seconds it would take to be thankful to whomever for whatever is just too long to wait to tuck in.

But since the original poster is specifically asking if he did "wrong," I'm really not sure what sort of answer he's fishing for - absolution or condemnation, either of which would be equally meaningful. Or meaningless. What does "wrong" mean? According to whose standard? Is there an absolute measure of "right" and "wrong" that we can all agree on?

[TooBigaTent]

20. Tolerance does not always mean giving in to the enemy. Unfortunately, too many Dems seem

to think that it does.

[babylonsister]

24. Who was the enemy? One person is an atheist, the other isn't, now they're

enemies? Gimme a break. No one said everyone had to believe the same thing or they're enemies. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.

[TooBigaTent]

27. Conclusion came from woman wanting to impose her religious beliefs on others.

Everyone IS FREE to believe whatever the fuck they want. They just should not impose those beliefs on others with the arrogance of the christists.

[babylonsister]

30. Wrong conclusion then. Why were they breaking bread together

if they weren't friends? Nevermind; I can tell this won't go anywhere fast.

[hfojvt]

40. obviously if I say out loud something like

"Bless, oh lord, this food for our use
and us to thy service
and make us ever mindful of the needs of others
amen."

I am totally imposing my religion on the atheists who are determined to only serve themselves.

[RadiationTherapy]

179. You blew it with that last sentence.

Judger.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. A Mature And Wise Person Would Not Consider Her An Enemy.

They also would not consider it to be giving in.

You need to grow up and open your mind a bit it seems.

[TooBigaTent]

33. Snarky answer. Anyone who tries to impose their mystical belief on others is the one

that needs to grow up and open their "mind" to the fact that not everyone has to believe the same crap that they do.

Where do you draw the line? If the aunt said, "I do not eat at the same table with foreigners (the wife)" - would that require that everyone give in to her bigotry?

I find it very offensive when the assumption of christist belief is imposed on anyone. You would say I am just being overly sensitive. My experience is that most christians aren't.

[hfojvt]

46. when I was an atheist

I never considered demanding that everyone else in my presence stop doing the rituals that they were accustomed to doing. Nor did I think they were a$$holes for not considering the fact that somebody at the table might not believe in their god or any god.

How do you see them simply speaking out loud as imposing any sort of belief on you?

[TooBigaTent]

51. YOUR christist superiority is showing. My observation is that athiests are LESS selfish

than religious nuts of any denomination. We do not demand that you stop your beliefs - just keep them to yourself.

We also do not delude ourselves that a lifetime of bigotry and hatred can be made up for by death-bed confession and in the afterlife all is forgiven. What you do HERE is what counts.

And not one of you apologists for the aunt has addressed my hypothetical about overt racism by the woman? Would you simply sit there and accept it, in the name of "tolerance?"

[hfojvt]

75. and I have the opposite experience, finding church people less selfish

than atheist wackos.

Your hypothetical doesn't fit the situation. It kinda assumes that I should be as intolerant of other people's religious beliefs as I am of their bigotry. The one saying the prayer is not overtly expressing intolerance of anybody else.

By the way I decided to try your terms and express the idea that all atheists are insane.

[EOTE]

186. Atheist wackos? What the hell are those?

Are they those crazies who bomb abortion clinics? Or are they the ones who engage in honor killings? Maybe they're the ones that shoot up liberal organizations because they have different beliefs? Was it an atheist wacko who blew up the OKC building? Or maybe those child fuckers in Colorado who wear that really unusual clothing? No? I guess I'll need some clarification as to what an atheist wacko is then. Because I've seen a lot of sick fundies in my time, but never get an atheist wacko. I guess I need to get out more.

[Boojatta]

199. Maybe the Unabomber is an example?

I don't know what his views on religion are/were.

[ieoeja]

56. How did they react when you ate and continued conversation while they were saying grace? n/t

[LostinVA]

137. Yup, I just don't bow my head or anything -- like during the National Anthem

I just stand there, and if it goes on too long, I strat rolling my eyes. Just like "Grace."

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Common Sense Party]

114. And if you were a guest in a Hindu family's home, you would object

to their prayers as well?

[Mad_Dem_X]

204. Thank you - whatever happened to

just sitting quietly and letting the person say their bit before eating? Is it really that big a deal? Jeebus.

[H2O Man]

78. Silly.

Identifying someone you are breaking bread with as your "enemy" seems rather sad.

[babylonsister]

81. Thanks, H20 Man, I think so, too. nt

[Mad_Dem_X]

205. It does, doesn't?

We progressives are supposed to be tolerant. Apparently not when it comes to people who want to say Grace at the dinner table. :eyes:

[tburnsten]

94. So his sister in law is his "enemy"?

That is a bullshit statement, and you know it. Someone leading a different lifestyle as far as faith goes does not make them "the enemy", or have you forgotten what the last seven years have been like?

Grow up.

[LostinVA]

139. Yeah, I think they know it, too

[blue52power]

107. What is the enemy?

A family that decides to say a prayer before a meal?

Cmon, we liberals always demand tolerance and rightly so.

Would it have been so hard to sit there and allow a family to say a prayer? That's rude and intolerant.

[JerseygirlCT]

131. Whoa! Enemy?

Don't you think you're getting into a bit of hyperbole here?

This was his SIL, not his enemy. She very well may have been less than polite - it does sound that way. But there's no reason to jump into war mode here.

[LostinVA]

134. I don't consider someone wanting to say "Grace" the enemy

And, I'm not a Christian any longer.

Oh boy.

[Warpy]

38. I will tolerate anyone who tries to tolerate me

and notice I didn't say they had to be successful.

However, insisting on public prayers with unwilling people is intolerant.

I have no objection to people praying before they eat. However, when they demand the rest of us be a part of it, they're going to find out they don't run my dinner table.

I will request they do so silently, then move on.

They can run their own dinner tables as they like.

[babylonsister]

48. She was being tolerant by asking; the OP wasn't in the way he responded.

It wouldn't have bothered me and I'm not at all religious. I also wouldn't have felt like this person was trying to 'force' anything on me. JMO.

[Warpy]

71. Bullshit. As a relative, she knew the score

She just wanted to priss around and show everybody how Christian she is.

I'd have told her to do it silently, thanks, but that's at my table.

[babylonsister]

74. Do you know her? Her intentions? I didn't think so. nt

[Posteritatis]

97. Where'd you learn to read minds? Sign me up for lessons. (nt)

[JerseygirlCT]

136. I guess we can't really know as we weren't there.

It read a bit more to me as if she was hoping that they'd participate in grace. I'm not sure permission would need to be extended to someone who simply pauses quietly before eating to pray, you know?

It sounds like that's a point of contention, and I'd just make a guess that this friction point isn't a new thing...

[JerseygirlCT]

133. I agree with you

Prayer is also really a personal thing, and pushing it on people who aren't eager to participate serves exactly what end?

As you say, if this had been SILs home, and their habit was to say grace, then the non-participants could have sat quietly while the rest said grace. Likewise, in someone's home where prayers are not the habit, the polite thing to do is to quietly pause and say grace to oneself. There's no need whatsoever to make a spectacle of it.

[Warpy]

147. There are a whole lot of people who miss that distinction

Perhaps we should refer them to Matthew 6:5-6

[JerseygirlCT]

167. Yeah, I was thinking of that, too!

Now, there's certainly a place for group prayer - when you're with others who wish to pray.

But pushing your own prayer on unwilling participants? I don't understand the point there.

It reminds me of the arguments of those who want public prayers in public schools... "You won't let me pray in school!" Well, of course you can pray in school. You just don't have to insist everyone else get involved. Bow your head any time you like.

[JNelson6563]

182. With all different beliefs at table

the polite thing to do would've been for whoever wanted to say grace to do a silent prayer thing by herself before eating. That's a good way of keeping one's religion to one's self and yet still practicing what they believe.

I knew a guy who did that. Was pretty devout in his beliefs, without fail did a grace sort of thing before eating. Never asked if he could lead the table in prayer, brought no attention to himself. Just bowed his head for a brief silent prayer while everyone else went about their business. I always admired him for that. He practiced his beliefs consistently and followed that part in the gospels about praying privately, not as a spectacle.

Julie

[Wickerman]

2. You might have said

"something non-denominational would be nice", or, something to that effect. What was the reaction?

[Pale Blue Dot]

3. The only thing you did wrong, IMHO,

is that since it was you son and DIL's home, it was probably their place to say it. However, they probably didn't want to offend their aunt.

It was very presumptuous of you SIL to suggest it. People today have can't even imagine that someone might not shared their beliefs and opinions.

[Hydra]

4. The polite answer is:

I don't mind as long as it is silent.

A lot of people advocate allowing the majority party to say grace to the god they worship, but if I were the majority party, would it be polite for me to lead a prayer to Kali or Loki? I don't think so.

A silent moment of thanks(pray to who you want).

[Lorien]

68. Yeah, I think that's a good way to handle it

besides, Jesus said to "pray in your closet and not on the street corners" or some such (someone else will have the exact phrase) so public prayer is for the benefit of those around you, not your Deity.

[Mad_Dem_X]

206. Excellent answer! nt

[scheming daemons]

5. When you are in someone else's home, THEIR customs should be followed.

Your sister-in-law was out of line to ask to say grace in SOMEONE ELSE'S home.

You were also out of line to object to it in SOMEONE ELSE'S home.



It was at your son's place.... so your son's customs are the only ones that matter there.



That's my view, anyway.

[fed_up_mother]

13. My view, as well

I don't care who's invited to my home, we say grace over meals. And we generally thank God for our good friend, uncle, etc.'s presence. We don't preach to them. We just are who we are.

We abide by the "When in Rome..." philosophy. When in someone else's home, it's quite possible to say a silent grace without drawing attention to yourself.

[ieoeja]

57. And how do you react if they ate and continue conversations while you say grace? n/t

[fed_up_mother]

67. I'd ignore them and go on

but apparently, my friends and family also have a "When in Rome..." attitude. :) They're just fine, and don't mind. And they generally appreciate the attention they get in prayer, even if they don't believe themselves. ("We ask a blessing on Uncle Harry, who is so generous with his time, and whom we love so much.") They know we are honoring them in our own way and almost always grin or even thank us. :)

[ieoeja]

70. Did it ever occur to you some may find it uncomfortable?

But are too polite to tell you that you are being rude?

Also, we used to grin when my brother-in-law's mother did this. But because we tend to view saying grace as weird and funny, not because we appreciated it (which we certainly did not).

Not as bad as my ex-wife's family at Thanksgiving, however. They insisted I join in their "what are you thankful for" ritual to which I responded, "I would have been thankful for you respecting my wishes not to particpate in your ritual, but that didn't happen, so I really can't think of anything right now".

[JerseygirlCT]

140. I hate that

The "what I'm thankful for" stuff. Ugh. Spare me, please. It turns into a family ritual for brownie points or something.

If I feel the need to share something that emotional, I'd rather do it on my own, and at my own instigation, you know?

[fed_up_mother]

207. "When in Rome..."

People know exactly what to expect at my house.

We're also meat eaters, but entertain vegetarians. I continue to serve meat in their presence.

And no one is expected to say anything, but the person saying grace. And the particular relatives who eat with us regularly but are atheist or agnostic, also attend holiday mass with their elderly relatives as part of the whole Christmas ritual thing. (I'm not catholic, btw.) They have a live and let live philosophy.

[JerseygirlCT]

138. Really, would it matter?

If your beliefs lead you to wish to give thanks before eating, then does it matter if others do not do the same?

I don't know - I never feel the need to make sure other people know I'm praying. In fact, I'm sort of the other way around. But I can quite easily say a quick thanks while others are still adjusting their napkins or passing the food.

[fed_up_mother]

208. We just always pray as a family

We abide by the "When in Rome" when in other people's houses, so we expect the same at ours. :)

[supernova]

41. Agreed, this is also my answer

It's your son's house, his rules and you both should have abided by them. You were in effect, arguing as if your hosts weren't even there.

Was it worth it to treat your son and his wife badly?

[cobalt1999]

61. Well said.

My religious mother in law doesn't even try at our house. I hold hands and listen quietly to prayers at her house.

[Eric J in MN]

92. The SIL was presumably there because people wanted to listen to her.

Big deal if she wanted to share her faith for a minute with non-believers.

The polite answer to someone who wants to say grace is to let him or her.

[LittleClarkie]

98. That's a good view. It would have been the son's place to object or not.

And one would hope that if the OP was in someone's house who likes to say grace, that this tradition would be respected. The same would go for anyone's house, be it Muslim or Hindu or Baha'i. Would their prayers also be considered mumbled nonsense?

[tburnsten]

103. It's never out of line to ask

unless you are asking someone if you can hold a Klan meeting in their dining room, or if they would all like to go out for a nice stroll with the local chapter of the nazi party after dinner. Just asking if it's ok to say grace, as she probably does every other meal she eats, is neither out of line or repressive. I don't understand why so many posters on here are validating his intolerance.

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. It's unfortunate your SIL put you all in that situation.

I assume she understands the varied religious beliefs of those who were gathered? If so, she was out of line.

Whether she knew she was out of line, you can only figure out through conversation with her. Is she a Jesus-Crispy? If so, she might have felt the need for some "evangelization". If not, she might have just had a moment of forgetfulness, of simply following a daily habit.

Thankfully, she put it in the form of a question - and in the form of a yes/no answer, as well.

She asked, you answered - and you answered honestly. Yes, you would mind. However, if you really did say that you found it an insult if she babbled her Christian nonsense over the food, then you went WAAAAAY out of the bounds of etiquette. She didn't ask, "Does any one mind, and if so, why?"

Hopefully she didn't then say a prayer out loud, or force you all to listen to one.

She should have known not to even bring it up, though, and she could very easily have said a prayer of her own silently. That's what a mannered person would do.

[FatherTime1408]

23. Agree with you completely

[pleah]

122. Good answer, IMHO.

[sybylla]

187. Absolutely agree! nt.

[AlCzervik]

8. It's your sons house, shouldn't it really be up to him and his wife?

[ThomWV]

11. Notice that she said "Anyone" mind ....

[AlCzervik]

16. i am an atheist but really, i would have just let it go. Did your son or his wife speak up?

[baby_mouse]

193. I used to think this.

But given the behaviour of the Christianity over the past few years I'm beginning to change my mind.

[LostinVA]

141. Exactly

[lame54]

9. And long as it was short - no problem...

When we eat at my Aunt's house everybody stands in a circle holding hands while her grandson says grace.
I too am an atheist but find it a rewarding ritual.
While everybody has their eyes closed and their heads bowed in prayer I look around at all those that I am privileged to call my friends and family

[Bake]

15. What a lovely idea!

Kudos to you.

Bake

[ieoeja]

58. I would sit down and start eating.

You might find first shot at the goodies to be even more rewarding!

:evilgrin:

[lame54]

66. maybe i could pick their pockets as well

[Bettie]

10. I'd have asked for a simple moment of silence

Which is always nice and calming and allows those who pray to do so without bugging the rest of us with a canned prayer.

[Gold Metal Flake]

14. I have no problem.

There was nothing stopping her from simply saying grace quietly before she started her meal. People used to do that. Have you ever heard anyone announce "anyone mind if I cross myself?" and then expect the rest of the table to stop, bow and wait until the act is complete? This is just controlling behavior, and it need not be entertained.

I suppose if I were in that situation, I would simply say "go ahead" and I would have continued passing food and talking with others. If the person insisted that we stop to join, I would have then let them know that we would not be doing that, but she would be free to worship as she pleases. You were more direct, which is fine.

The good thing is that this will probably be the last time this one tries to force you to stand aside for her religion. Win!

[RB TexLa]

17. If someone told me they wanted to thank a big ball of something they worship for their food,

I'd say "go ahead." Can't see what it doing anything to me. I'm free to thank God, or whoever I want to thank for it myself.

[TooBigaTent]

18. The fundy christists always think that THEIR god and prayers are the only thing that matters.

You did nothing wrong. The old bat asked "Anyone mind if I say Grace?" and "anyone answered. She did not specifically ask the hosts if THEY would mind her imposing her beliefs on veryone.

If you do not confront these people but meekly (in the guise of courtesy) submit to them, they will only get more demanding.

[LittleClarkie]

105. Where does the OP say that this woman is a fundy?

You presume a lot about someone who isn't fully described in the first post. Suddenly this person is a Fundy Christist old bag (I assume the "ist" is used instead of "ian" because it sounds nastier than the given name of that group of people). How tolerant of you to assume so much about someone who's beliefs you don't like. Let's hear what you have to say about the Hindu person now.

I think that people of different religions as well as races etc should be treated with the same respect, and not with the bigotry your assumptions about this person reveal.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. I Think You Were Totally Out Of Line And Furthermore Against The Values Of The Constitution.

You inhibited this person from freely engaging in their religious beliefs, under circumstances that would've done not a one of you harm. I find your action to be over the top and irrational.

If she was demanding you all hold hands and say grace together or she would refuse to eat, that's a different story. She just wanted to say grace for herself, and I'm sure an answer of "that's fine, but we don't do that so please don't take offense at our not joining you" would've sufficed perfectly.

I think the only insult came from you, and I think you taught all around you a really shit poor lesson as it relates to tolerance and kindness. That isn't what atheism is about at all.

[Sanctified]

28. The 1st Amendment does not apply to private property.

When you are on another person's property you have no right to exercise your religion, she did the right thing by asking and he gave his response. Although I think his response was tacky and could have been better served by giving his Sister in Law an explanation on why she should not say grace openly instead of just saying "No".

I would be interested in what his response would have been if the Hindu friend would have asked to say a thanks for the blessing before eating.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. Your Comprehension Was Off.

I said against the values of the constitution, as in the spirit of the constitution, not against the constitution itself. I know the constitution doesn't apply in this sense, but the spirit of it can.

One of the most important things our forefathers wanted was a nation where people were free from religious persecution. Though that was more government centric in nature, the spirit and values of that concept can still be related to someone trying persecute another, even privately, for their beliefs.

The lack of tolerance, level of irrational religious hatred, and closed mindedness showed by the story in the OP is astounding.

[Sanctified]

50. I apologize for misunderstanding I just associate the Constitution to limitation of Government not..

rights of the people.

[hootinholler]

44. I really didn't know that atheism has a code.

Please enlighten me, I thought it was just the rejection of the notion of God. I didn't realize that it is about so much more. Is there a 'King James' book of atheism?

-Hoot

[faithfulcitizen]

54. lol- I was thinking the same thing. I didn't think Atheists had such rules.

[Blue-Jay]

152. Shut up about the Constitution, you idiot.

This was a simple gathering, not a case in front of the SCOTUS.

That said, the OP should not have made a Big Damned Deal about a few people who wanted to say grace.

Thom - I'm an atheist, but I will (out of respect) bow my head and STFU if someone at the table feels the need to say a prayer before a meal. The faith of my dinner companions does not affect me in any way, but my actions during one of their prayers might cause them grief. You don't need to agree with a person to show them a modicum of respect.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

190. How Bout I Talk About Whatever The Fuck I Want. Work For You? Cause It Certainly Works For Me.

My point was valid. We all yap about the constitution all the time and the spirit of it. Hell, half of the rabid atheists on here use it all of the time. Nothing wrong with applying the values of it to the situation here, since the way the OP behaved was completely inappropriate in my opinion and was definitely against the spirit of what we're supposed to believe in. Don't like my pointing that out? Well boo hoo for you. I'm sure in time you'll get over it.

[Blue-Jay]

191. I'm already over it, cockslap.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

194. Good For You! Here's A Scooby Snack For Ya!

[demobabe]

196. If she asked whether anybody minded,

and the OP said they did... then she got a response. That's called "communicating."

Saying it is a Constitutional issue is goofy.

[ZombieHorde]

21. "Did I do wrong?"

I don't know a lot about right and wrong, but your story is awesome!

Grace is a selfish custum. "No one eat until I am done talking with my imaginary friend!"

[Ichingcarpenter]

26. I do one thanking the animals and plants that died

to fed us if they insist on doing one that is overly dogmatic.

[MuseRider]

79. I like that!

I must prepare one for those certain occasions. My evangelical relatives (the only relatives I have left) insist that everything is related to their God out loud no matter where you are. We prayed in Wendy's, a long and loud one one night. I, of course, sat and watched the looks of amazement all around the establishment. Next time I end up having to sit through one of their pious (oh yes, save our heathen relative) prayers I will surprise them with one of those. Makes more sense to me actually, I like it.

[ZombieHorde]

87. Bwahahahaha!

[Sanctified]

22. Did she know you and your son had such a dislike for Christianity? n/t

[ThomWV]

55. I have known her for over 30 years and its never been a secrete

By the way, I've never heard her do it in her own home nor has she ever done it at our home - she visits about twice a year.

[Lars39]

77. Sounds like soft proselytizing, then.

[yardwork]

84. That's interesting. So this is something new for her? Maybe she recently got religion?

I don't think it's a big deal one way or the other. Really.

[mmonk]

29. I wouldn't have done it out of respect for her as a person.

However, I wouldn't carry on a conversation on religion.

[NNN0LHI]

106. I tried that once in a restaurant with another couple

We were eating at a buffet and as they were eating and after their woo woo to the gods they proceeded to fill up their pockets with candies and such from the ice cream bar.

It was all you can eat not all you can steal.

When they began filling their pockets my wife and I got up and walked out and left them inside doing their Christian thing.

Don

[slackmaster]

31. I think it was a little tacky

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[Guaranteed]

116. I think it was a little tacky from every side.

It sounds like the whole situation was lacking in "grace," the way people were behaving.

[slackmaster]

175. I don't disagree, just answering the OP's question

:hi:

[truebrit71]

32. Right...you might have told her she was more than welcome to say a silent prayer...

...in her vacuous head, but you were absolutely right...and most xtians that I know that do the whole 'grace' bit that would NEVER be so rude as to try and pull that sort of fundy shit in someone else's house...

[malaise]

34. From your SIL asked "Anyone mind if I say Grace?"

She gave you the right to answer honestly. If she had just said grace without asking I'm sure you would have ignored it. She asked; you answered honestly. You did right.

[Quantess]

35. I wouldn't have protested, but then, I'm an easygoing type.

I would have just sat and paitently waited until she was done with her little ritual. I'm sure the woman thought "I'm being persecuted by non-believers!"

[islandmkl]

36. simple: question = answer

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. She asked, you answered. Same as asking if anyone minded if she farted.

She was polite in asking, you were (presumably) polite in answering, no problem.

[woodsprite]

39. We do one of two - depending on the audience ...

Bless this food to our use, and make us ever mindful of the needs of others.
This we pray. Amen.

OR (my dad's favorite)

Grace in the kitchen,
grace in the hall,
Good Lord Auntie,
Don't eat it all.

---

I don't think you did wrong. The proper way for her to have handled it when she realized Grace wasn't going to be said would have been to say it silently to herself. If we are having a large family gathering, and we know that my in-laws say grace at every meal, we will ask them as an honor to say grace. Actually, we figure our's wouldn't come up to par, so might as well invite them to do their spiel.

[barbtries]

65. reminds me of my brother's

good food, good meat
thank gawd, let's eat

[CTyankee]

42. This was so inappropriate! You did the right thing.

However, I would have a private conversation with her later and explain thatyou are not against her praying before a meal, but she can certainly do it silently (as I have seen some people do when they are in lunchrooms at tables with other people). By wanting to do it verbally, she was showing that she wasmore interested in "showing" off her religiosity than in prayer. You could say "Don't you think that a prayer in the human heart isn't just as valuable as one that is verbalized?" That oughta stop her.

[redqueen]

43. I would have let the host make the call...

but in general, I don't find grace to be offensively dogmatic (I guess that depends on what's said), so I'd consider it overreacting at least. It's not as if she was asking everyone to hold hands while she led them in prayer.

[RaleighNCDUer]

49. wrong.

Proper etiquette suggests that the host replies to such queries, not a fellow guest.

If the host minds, he can then request that prayers, like smoking, be taken outside so as not to befoul the air inside.

[Sanctified]

52. He is a father and I know as a fellow father I rarely follow proper etiquette when dealing...

with my children and it drives my wife crazy.

[Mother Of Four]

53. Need to leave it up to the host/hostess to respond.

If you can't bring yourself to do that then maybe the next best thing would have been something to the effect of a moment of silence as others suggested.

[petronius]

59. If you said the part about babbling Christian nonsense, than I'd say you were wrong

Or at least needlessly confrontational.

IMO, the correct response would have been to let the host handle it, and, if you were the host, the correct response would be that she can do anything she wants as long as she doesn't expect everyone else to participate. I'd say that a guest or group of guests saying grace should be treated no differently than any other subset of the people around the table engaged in conversation...

[Lex]

60. Why would she ASK if "No" wasn't acceptable?

I don't get that.

[ieoeja]

62. She asked you a question. You gave her an honest answer. That is never wrong. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

112. Giving an honest answer is never wrong?

"Honey? Do I look fat?"

[barbtries]

63. she asked and you answered -

at that point she could have given you the time to leave the room until she'd finished her prayer, or she could have said her grace silently. what i'm curious to know is what happened after that????

[Morrisons Ghost]

64. Whatever happened to manners?

And respecting another persons home?:eyes:

[Eric J in MN]

89. Guests were invited because the host wanted to listen to them,

...in most cases.

Good hosting means letting them talk.

[Guaranteed]

121. One might even go so far as to say that this is a family, and they "care" about each other. nt

[noamnety]

69. Do people who say grace

say it out loud if they are home alone having a meal? (suddenly wondering that)

[Eric J in MN]

91. Let's assume she doesn't say faith out loud when home alone.

She wanted to share her faith for a minute.

Big deal.

He should have let her.

If she wanted to tell a boring personal story, he should have let her do that, too.

[Sanctified]

96. I had to think about that one, I have caught myself saying Grace aloud when alone so probably yes.

Usually just dinner and breakfast though, I am in such a habit of doing it with my family that even when sitting alone I may say it aloud. Lunch is usually always a quiet prayer of thanks though.

[noamnety]

104. Thanks

I don't really know how that goes.

If I were religious, I suspect I would be more apt to say it when I'm home alone rather than out in public; it just seems like a personal thing to me. But I can see that would completely depend on how you were raised and whether you are an introvert or an extrovert.

As for the specifics of the OP's situation, it would depend on the dynamics, I think. My in-laws are religious and say grace, even at my house and it's fine. A little awkward for me, as it always is when someone wants to do a tradition that excludes you, but not a big deal.

If we'd had fights about religion though in the past, I might be more likely to view it as a deliberate passive-aggressive act of imposing views on me. You can kind of tell from the person what their intent is.

[Sanctified]

110. My family does it to just remind ourselves how lucky we are to have the blessings of

family, friends and nourishment. We don't go into some long drawn out prayer on how great God is, any Being that can speak words and form worlds does not need some piss-ant like myself reminding him how great he is. Our prayers are more of a thanks for even the smallest blessings our Creator bestows upon us. Most of my friends who are anti-religious don't mind coming to my house for dinner since my wife is an awesome cook and the prayers are pretty simple and they feel good after it.

[H2O Man]

109. "Water Thanks"

The drop of water
hangs from the faucet
pulsing, the heart
of the well still beating

I never drink water
Harold Elm told me
without saying
a prayer of thanks

the drop of water
trembles, holding
the face of all the worlds
-- Joseph Bruchac

[knitter4democracy]

144. I do.

If I'm in a hurry, I just cross myself before and after eating. If I'm out in public alone, I tend to do that, too. With family, we pray out loud.

[NuttyFluffers]

166. yes, i've seen it several times when people thought they were alone.

it's more common among an older or immigrant population because it was taught as rote for them. they don't even think about it, it is just done. happens across cultures and religions, too, but you have to be observant enough in various religions to pick up on it. not all religions do their meal prayer as publicly, but many have them.

i've also found some people feel particularly comfortable around friends and family so that sharing a meal prayer becomes a poignant and comforting ritual to share their love of all those partaking. it may not mean anything to anyone else, but for them it gives them a sense of peace to wish the people they eat with as much positive well-wishing as they can. most people i've dined with think nothing of it and if anything it's just a sweet gesture -- unless the person saying grace gets all aggressive and insist that everyone participate their way, but i've seen that only rarely.

but as manners says, host's home, host's rules; and never chastise publicly, particularly over minor guest nuances. whatever, some people just have a short fuse lately, probably making for uncomfortable companionship. maybe after a new president things will get better...
;)

[SteelPenguin]

72. Meh I wouldn't get so worked up

I think people were right, that it was your sons place, but she did ask the room....

Still i told my wife when my kids were born, that if she wanted to baptise them Roman Catholic for her parents I wouldn't care. I said they might as well smear them with ketchup and go "a boo boo a boo boo" over them if it makes them feel better, then I'm fine with it.

Same for someone saying Grace. If they're in my house and they want to say Grace they're free to do so. I'm not going to say it with them, but if it makes them feel better, and they think it's necessary who am I to judge or stop them. It's not like it's gonna make my food taste worse, or suddenly turn my children into fundies.

[maui9002]

73. An alternative suggestion

Instead of saying, "Yes, I mind" and risking creating unnecessary tension and bruised feelings at a family gathering, perhaps you could have responded by saying, "Yes, I think we should say grace; if you don't mind, I'd like to offer grace" and then respond with something non religious. In my home, when I have guests, I try to offer a simple thanks for the opportunity to be among family and friends, an expression of gratitude that we are blessed to have food on the table, and a reminder that we think of those who are less fortunate--without mentioning God, the Lord, etc. In short, not only a non denominational offering but one devoid of religious references; essentially, you give thanks for what is being provided (admittedly without indicating to what or whom you are giving thanks--whether it's God, Mother Nature, or just plain good fortune), a blessing for the health and safety of those seated at the table, and a recognition that others are not so fortunate (which should be useful whether you believe in God or not).

[MuseRider]

76. Grace may be said

individually and quietly. Your SIL surely was aware of the various beliefs around the table. It seems rather tacky to me to expect everyone else to sit through that, no matter how short. I suppose the next time you could all be ready with something of your own and see if she is willing to sit through whatever you wanted to say.

I am all for religion if that is what helps you get through this life but it is not for me, at least the organized kind and there is little that makes me angrier than to have someone suppose I need their particular form of belief to "become" a better person. You have the right not to be belittled and harassed. I am not sure this particular incident is harassment but it would have annoyed me. I actually grew up in a family of evangelical missionaries of the worst kind, they have shaped my belief system right away from anything they would have had me believe by pushing it every second of every day I was ever around them.

[Eric J in MN]

88. It isn't a burden to listen to someone say grace for a minute.

I was raised in conservative Judaism. Saturday morning services were 3 hours long. I could listen to someone say grace for a minute without being bothered.

It might be interesting to hear her version of grace.

And I'm an atheist.

A good host lets guest say things (within limits which include grace.)

[MuseRider]

101. I respectfully disagree

and that may be the point. What for you is interesting has become a harassment for me. I have rarely seen respect from those who would subject people who are not interested or insulted by their superior religious attitudes. Now remember, this is coming from someone who suffers these people now and then and they have no respect for anything in my life (or others) if they do not worship the way they do. In other words I am most likely oversensitive. I must say, my husband is Jewish and I enjoy their services now and again but the difference is I have never had one pushed on me.

Prayer is something that can be shared if people agree to that but if they do not it does not stop the person from praying silently. It is every bit as much an infringement on the person not wanting to pray as everyone seems to think it is on those who want to. Why make a deal of it when you can do it silently and not bother anyone else? There is often motive there and at this point I think many people are sick to death of it. JMO

[H2O Man]

80. You didn't do "right." n/t

[yellerpup]

82. I'm not the Judge, y'understand...

Whether or not you did wrong is best answered by the lady's reaction. Maybe she offered a prayer because she was trying to 'fit in' and didn't have a good read on the family yet. As long as her feelings weren't terribly hurt, or if they were and you made up with her afterwards there is no way it was wrong. Was it right? Personally, it's never not right to stand up for what you believe. You are a thinking empathetic individual and I trust you to do the right thing. She may be relieved to know she isn't going to have to 'fake' Christianity to get along with your family. Hope it all worked out okay.

[yardwork]

83. Is there a new spelling of "atheist" that nobody told me about?

I keep seeing it spelled "athiest." Does this have some special meaning or what?

Nobody told me about all the different internets either. I had to learn about them from the chimp during the debates...

[Vinca]

85. I would have said -

"Knock yourself out, pass the peas." Tolerance means she can pray and you can eat.

[Eric J in MN]

86. You were wrong.

I'm an atheist, and I wouldn't mind a guest saying grace.

If a guest wants to tell a story about a subject I don't care about, that's OK, too.

Being a good host means letting guests say things they want within reasonable bounds. Which includes saying grace.

[Guaranteed]

117. I agree. I think one can even go so far as to bow one's head out of respect for

the guest's beliefs, when the person is close to you.

People make too much of "beliefs," as if beliefs define a person and if they aren't defended the soul is lost.

[reflection]

119. Agreed.

My word - we have gotten so rude as a society. And closed minded as well. I wonder if a Wiccan 'prayer' request would have elicited such a curt response from the OP. It seems as if the vitriol is reserved for Christians only.

[pinto]

90. Live and let live works for me.

:shrug:

[tburnsten]

93. I think you may have been a bit harsh

I completely understand not wanting to immerse your children and grandchildren in organized religion, but I think that at the least you owe it to them to allow them to be exposed to minor things like someone saying grace. Then you can teach them about the fact that there are a variety of different paths to follow, and that almost all of them are equally "right", but that you choose to abstain from following one of those specific paths, noting that it is really the individual's moral compass and character that define who they are, not who or if they pray to that makes the difference. You should also realize that a large amount of our population consist of people who do practice a faith, and that tolerance of others and openess sort of obligates you to not just condemn them as "babbling nonsense". Besides, she did ask if it would bother anyone, to her credit.

My advice would be to lighten up, it isn't a big deal.

[LittleClarkie]

95. I would think keeping your kids away from something that exists in the world

is as wrong as some Chistians thinking that by homeschooling their kids they can keep the evils of the world away from.

Your children will need to co-exist with many people, and all should be treated with the same tolerance and respect, atheist, Hindu and Christian alike. Would you say that the Hindu babbles nonsense in his/her prayers as well?

[screembloodymurder]

99. Yes.

I think you did.

[DailyGrind51]

100. Sometimes, fundamentalist "A"theism can be just as annoying as

fundamentalist Christianity. It might have provided an occasion for your son to invite other guest to contribute a "wish" of his/her own choosing, be it secular or religious, so that all might be comfortable.

[RaleighNCDUer]

149. Get the fuck off your fucking high horse.

There is no such thing as "fundamentalist atheism". Atheism has no holy book, it has no base tenets, it has no prophets or saints

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION.

Do you even know what "fundamentalist" even means?

[DailyGrind51]

183. These doctrinaire Athiests who object to the very mention of "God" meet the definition of

fundamentalism! Here is a Merriam-Webster definition of "fundamentalism": " a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles <Islamic fundamentalism> <political fundamentalism>"

I don't believe YOU know every definition of the word!

Doctrinaire Atheism meets that definition, and I'll stay on whatever "high horse" I damn well choose. Before you criticize me, take a look at where you are sitting!

[RaleighNCDUer]

184. What is the "doctrine"?

Is there any atheist voice that speaks for the majority? Or even for a significant minority? What "basic principles" come into play? You'd be hard pressed to find any two atheists even agreeing on whether non-belief is a belief or not.

There is no such thing as 'fundamental atheism' as there are no fundamentals TO atheism. Fundamentalism requires a belief system, and atheism has no system. Just venture into the atheists forum and LOOK for consensus. If thee were a system there would be no constant discussions about the degrees 'soft' atheism, 'hard' atheism, agnosticism, anti-theism. Talking about fundamentalist atheism is like talking about fundamentalist gayness. It is just plain silly.

And this whole discussion is not about atheism, but about how people should react to other peoples' delusional ideas (and before you jump back up on your high horse, recognize that I'm talking about BOTH sides attitudes to the others).

Personally, I think both the guy and the SIL were out of line, as BOTH were guests in the house and neither has a right to supersede the hosts' prerogatives.

[Garbo 2004]

102. What do your son and his lady think? It was their home. n/t

[morgan2]

108. its one thing if it was her place

theres no reason for her to force her customs on people, especially knowing most people there don't believe in them. If she wants to thank her invisible friend for food, she doesnt have to talk to do it. Just think about it, if god is all powerful he'll know shes thankful.

[Edweird]

111. I am a card carrying member of the Church Of Satan. I couldn't care less about who prays to what.

It doesn't affect me either way. I am completely secure in my beliefs; are you? I'll go to church with girls if they ask me (although it isn't common for the girls I go for to be church goers). I don't melt or catch on fire. Holy water has no effect on me and wine is yummy. I am merely bored out of my mind and occasionally amused by the hypocrisy. To me prayers are simply the grown up version of a child sitting on the mall Santa's lap and asking for presents, believing that is the way they get what they want. What do I care? I personally wouldn't have objected simply for the sake of peace out of respect for the owner of the home I was in. In my OWN home, I would have politely declined.

[LittleClarkie]

123. I melt

We don't have air conditioning where I go.

[Edweird]

125. Eek. That has to suck. The drowsiness from the heat

plus the monotony of the service must be a potent 1-2 punch. My condolences. I hope everybody there believes in showers and deodorants....

If it's any consolation, it's always summer where I live and work. I work outside and the safety requirements of my job (I'm a lineman) dictate HEAVY fire resistant long sleeve shirts and the heaviest rubber gloves you're ever seen with thick leather gloves outside of them. It's brutal. So I'm kinda conditioned to it.

[crikkett]

127. I've always wondered what draws you in to a religion that

worships, pays tribute, or otherwise gives power to an entity sworn to 'defeat mankind' or whatever.

It seems inherently self-destructive.

Can you enlighten me?

[Edweird]

145. Happily :)

First off, let me begin by pointing out that sociopaths killing animals or abusing children are NO PART of my organization. Those types of behavior are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. Self styled "devil worshippers" that make things up are not a part either.
There is no anthropomorphic deity with cloven hooves and horns, just like there is no god. It is, essentially, atheism with an extra jab in the eye of the intolerant.



The Nine Satanic Statements
from The Satanic Bible, ©1969
by Anton Szandor LaVe
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!



The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1967
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


Any person who represents anything other than these exact statements and rules as Satanism is a liar and a fake.

I was raised a Lutheran by my Grandparents and later a Catholic by my parents. I never felt comfortable. I tried many different churches and belief systems, none of which passed muster.
I was exposed to the Church Of Satan by a friend and realized immediately that I was a "born" Satanist. That was many many years ago, and I've never looked back.


An excerpt from:
EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT SORCERY, BUT WERE AFRAID TO ASK
By Arlene J. Fitzgerald; 1973, Manor Books
Pages 41 - 45 (section concerning Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan)


The very sins set forth as “deadly” by the Christian faith have become part of the Satanist’s creed. Envy is viewed by LaVey, as explained in his Satanic Bible, as viewing the possessions of others in a favorable light. Envy and greed are seen by him as the motivating powers that trigger ambition without which there would be very little if any progress toward achieving personal goals.

Gluttony is considered by LaVey to be equally innocuous, since it is merely of eating more than is needed to maintain life. When carried to extremes it serves to trigger yet another sin, pride, which will then motivate the individual so affected to take action in an attempt to regain his appearance and restore his self-respect.

“Satanism is simply being honest,” a feminine devotee has said of the cult. “Brutally honest. But why kid ourselves? Who doesn’t want the best out of life? Aren’t we all basically involved in trying to make our lives as good as is humanly possible. It’s human to want to gain greater control over what we can be and can acquire for ourselves in the way of material possessions. Satanism lets you be human.”

High Priest LaVey writes that his religion is a faith of the flesh. As defined by him, it is a religion that realizes the current needs of man and serves to fill the gap between religion and psychiatry, the former no longer being able of providing enlightened man with the ritualistic ceremonies he needs while psychiatry is said to have robbed man of the wonder and fantasy that was once provided by his religion.

Unlike certain witchraft ceremonies, Satanist rites are not designed to evoke demons, which LaVey sees as a product of fear since most witches see fit to protect themselves by carrying out their Black Magic while protected by a magic circle.

There is nothing furtive about the Satanist. In fact, every aspect of his religion would appear designed to promote man’s ego. To the dedicated Satanist, the name “Satan” is representative of “a force in nature” and has little to do with the usual behorned, cloven-hooved, black-coated creature who presented his posterior to receive the kisses of adulation bestowed upon him by early-day practitioners.

Nor are sexual orgies and promiscuity common to LaVey’s brand of Satanism as he explains it in his Satanic Bible, the general concensus being that those who wish to “swing” are free to indulge their desires, just as any who may prefer to remain chaste may do so with no fear of condemnation. The choice belongs entirely to the individual to be decided by his own tastes and inclinations, with any type of sexual activity that fulfills individual desires being condoned, so long as it involves no one who does not wish to be a part of it.

On the whole, most of what LaVey has set forth to serve as a guideline to his church members lets them have their cake and eat it, too. Contending that society in the future will be based on “indulgence,” LaVey is quoted by Judith Rascoe in an article appearing in McCall’s, March 1970: “We’ve......established a philosophy that advocates all of what most Americans practice whether they call it Satanism or not.”



I hope this clears up a few misconceptions.

[crikkett]

174. Thanks for this. It did clear a few misconceptions

It did clear a few misconceptions and answered some questions but also raised a number of others. They probably shouldn't be taken up here.

I have to admit that the use of language like 'lair' and 'mating signal' thing is pretty Goth and made me giggle.

You describe yourself as an Atheist with a twist. I'm agnostic, myself.

So, tell me if I understand this correctly:

Yours is a religion that celebrates the Human Ego and its gratification. The specific philosophy behind your religion with was codified by some guy in the late 60s.

It leaves violence as an option, excuses adherents from guilt over exhibiting darker/more animalistic aspects of human nature, and gives you a few rituals to make up for the lack of wonder in modern psychiatry. It acknowledges the existence of magic and demons, and of Satan, even though Satan is relegated to 'force of nature'.

Ruthlessness seems to be an admirable trait.

You don't bear responsibility for the welfare of others, except you're not to harm children, and you aren't supposed to harm other adults unless they piss you off or get in your way.

(edited for clarity)

[Edweird]

200. here goes

"I have to admit that the use of language like 'lair' and 'mating signal' thing is pretty Goth and made me giggle."
I personally find it cheesy and corny. meh. That's just the way it is.


"It leaves violence as an option,"
Violence exists in our world. I will not attack anyone, but I will defend myself.

"excuses adherents from guilt over exhibiting darker/more animalistic aspects of human nature"
Show me a religion that doesn't. Except those lying hypocrite scumbags do the very things they berate others for doing and then claim to be 'forgiven' and still feel 'morally superior'.
I'm honest about who I am and what I want.

"and gives you a few rituals to make up for the lack of wonder in modern psychiatry"
Many people realize that religion is nothing more than a scary story that was used to keep the serfs in check. Much like Santa Claus. "He knows when you've been sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake..."
The lack of wonder isn't IN psychiatry, it was supposedly caused BY it. Either way, I don't believe in the bible or god or the devil; I believe in myself, and this gives that a name other than "Edweirdism"

"It acknowledges the existence of magic and demons, and of Satan, even though Satan is relegated to 'force of nature'."
I personally don't. I don't acknowledge the existence of anything other than what we have right here, right now.

-Acknowledge the power of magic *IF YOU HAVE EMPLOYED IT SUCCESSFULLY* to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.-

I do not employ magic. I do not believe in it. Therefore I have an *out* for not acknowledging it.

"even though Satan is relegated to 'force of nature'.""
There is no god, no devil, no heaven, no hell.


"Ruthlessness seems to be an admirable trait."
As a 37 year old male that was abused as a child, has a junkie for a mother and has been on his own since his teens, I am here to tell you that it's a cold hard world out there. You gotta do what you gotta do to survive.


"You don't bear responsibility for the welfare of others,"
Correct.
"you're not to harm children"
Correct.
"you aren't supposed to harm other adults"
Correct.
"unless they piss you off or get in your way."
You are not supposed to "harm" them, but provide them with a little negative correction. Standing up for yourself is not a bad thing. At least not in my world.

[crikkett]

201. no disagreements

or judgements from me, here.

You are absolutely right, now that I think of it, that all religions find ways to excuse guilt for 'sins' and that a lot of people exploit their religion to get away with behaving badly.

We're the same age! I was adopted away from my own unfit parents. People tell me I should write a book but I think that would be more trauma than the experience.

Insofar as I've had a less horrible life, but probably too because I'm a woman, I prefer to embrace more nurturing "all-one" philosophies that teach mercy and emphasize equality and interdependence.

Yes, standing up for yourself and what you beleive in, is necessary for survival. It's a cold hard world except where there's warmth and love. I also posit: Nobody's safe until everybody's safe; the only way to end terrorism is to provide a wonderful life for all children.

Thanks, and Peace to you!

[Common Sense Party]

113. What, exactly, did you say?

Did you only say, "Yes!" that you objected, and nothing more?

Or did you actually say something about it being an insult for her to "babble christian nonsense"?

[ThomWV]

128. All I said was "Yes", the 'babble christian nonsense' was in my mind

I find prayer offensive in general but when there are children around I think it is unacceptable. There is no excuse for indoctrinating children with rubbish like prayer; one might a well perform a VooDoo ritual before dinner as far as I'm concerned.

[pleah]

115. Well, she did ask if anyone minded. So, I say no you were not wrong.

:)

[annabanana]

118. Tell her "Go ahead, but please don't do it out loud"

that would do it

[Fuzz]

120. If they are kind enough to ask, then I'd asnwer kindly.

[Evoman]

124. I would have let her say grace....and then farted while she was in the middle of it.

I put the ass in class.

[crikkett]

126. wrong - it's rude to reject a blessing.

You don't have to pray just stand there and let them bless your food for you.

[ThomWV]

129. Would you mind telling me just what a "Blessing" is? You imply it has substance, which it does not

To accept a 'blessing' would be to accept the validity of the religion behind it - which is something that I think is utterly unacceptable, particularly when impressionalbe children are present. I will not have my grand children indoctrinated in fairy tales as if there was something valid about them or the rituals associated with them.

[crikkett]

176. To accept a blessing is not to validate the religion behind it, but the goodwill of the

person bestowing the blessing upon you (or your food).

Blessings come in many forms! It could be something like,

May you have a good day as we part ways, and may you find ever-increasing satisfaction in your life as you learn how to take your blinders off, so that you may see the beauty in others and in the world around you! May your grandchildren learn quickly that in your past, mistaken attempts to keep them penned in to your small world, that you acted out of love and concern for their wellbeing, no matter how misguided it may have been considering the growth and progress that humankind has accomplished even within your lifetime! And may they return the love that you have for them in spades.

See? And I have no religion.

[JerseygirlCT]

130. If she knew that, then it really would have been more polite of her

to simply bow her head and say grace quietly to herself.

It sounds like her question was less "would it bother you if I do this?" and more "you'll want to do this with me, right?" But I could be wrong.

I would think that no one would have minded had she simply paused before eating. But you certainly have a right not to be made participants in her prayers.

[NanBo]

132. You said what I always think

but don't.

Funny how my 'liberal' morals are 'infecting' those around me, nieces, nephews, etc but I'm not the one who asked to spew my beliefs prior to a meal--prior to allowing anyone to eat their food--they must listen to ME. That's ultimately what it amounts to.

She asked a question, you answered. She said, "Does ANYONE" so I guess that includes everyone, not just the hosts. They hope to put you in a position where you can't say 'no'--and yet you/we are wrong if we answer honestly. Don't ask the question if you don't want an honest answer, otherwise, if we're not allowed to answer truthfully, they might as well go ahead and say the truth: "I AM GOING to say grace whether anyone wants to hear it or not", which is really what they're usually saying anyway.

[janethussein]

135. Yes, you did wrong.

What would it have hurt? You and your family didn't have to participate but could've just sat there in silence and let it go.

[mudesi]

142. She asked, you answered

It sounds to me like neither she nor you did anything wrong. She asked if you'd mind, and you gave her an honest answer.

Am I missing the controversy here?

[knitter4democracy]

143. Was confused. I get it now.

Carry on.

[Highway61]

146. You were at THEIR house...

Sit and say NOTHING....then eat. Why make an issue of it? It wasn't your home and besides...one's religious beliefs is what fucks up everything worldwide as we speak. If it wasn't for religion...think about just how many wars could have been avoided? Have you not been paying attention to the "ethnic cleansing" in various countries worldwide over the years? Religion is FUCKED UP. (Being spiritual is another story)

[ThomWV]

168. No, we were at the house of 1 non-believer, 1 Hindu, 3 children, and Zero Christians

The Christian was the visitor - and the only one in the house.

[NeedleCast]

148. See Response #1

n/t

[Hosnon]

150. You did wrong, in my opinion.

If you did not know her intent, it was very rude to say. If you did know her intent (and her intent was malicious) then you "poked the bear". The wiser move would have been to let it pass.

[awoke_in_2003]

151. Don't feel bad

she asked a yes or no question, and you gave her that. If you said "I can't believe you are ignorant enough to believe in an ancient desert dogma" then you would be stepping over the line (but only a little) :)

[Nye Bevan]

153. You should have offered to say grace, and said...

O dear God,
thank You.
You are such a good God to us, a kind and gentle...
and accommodating God.
And we thank You, O sweet,
sweet Lord of hosts...
for the...
smorgasbord...
You have so aptly lain at our table this day...
and each day... by day.
Day by day by day.
O dear Lord,
three things we pray.
To love Thee more dearly,
to see Thee more clearly,
to follow Thee more nearly...
day by day... by day.
Amen. Amen.

[TroglodyteScholar]

154. Yes, you did wrong. n/t

[VOX]

155. Yeah, I'd say you crossed a line a bit. You could have made a nice toast right after grace..

Not challenging or belittling your sister-in-law or her beliefs in any way, but simply to offer a more concrete, from-the-heart expression of how nice it is to be together with family, etc. Not to merely offset the saying of grace, but to augment it.

Regardless of your beliefs, allowing your sister-in-law to say grace does no damage.

Hang in there, we're only human. :toast:

[frogmarch]

156. Thom, you did RIGHT imo

If you all had been guests at your SIL's house, it would have been different, but she was a guest at your son's and his lady's house, neither of whom is a Christian. Besides, your SIL asked if anyone minded if she said grace, and you answered her.

[csziggy]

157. Thom, I will be in a similar dilemma Thanksgiving if DH has his way

He wants us to host his family for Turkey Day, which to me is a secular holiday. When we go to holidays at some of his family members' homes, they make a big deal about praying, being RW fundies. I just stand quietly, respecting their wishes in their homes.

But I do not want that superstition in my house. DH, being the pushover he is, will not say anything so I will have to say something. While I do not care if I offend the RW fundie father, I am fond of DH's sister who is married to the prick. I am not terribly worried about their children - though they have been raised as fundies, they will have to learn to deal with people of other faith.

But I really love DH's mother and his other siblings and do not want to upset any of them. MIL is Unitarian. I am not sure if any of the other siblings go to church, though one may be Presbyterian. They never make a point about it and do not insist on public prayer for family gatherings.

I may take the suggestion someone in this thread had - do a secular thank you for the company and the food myself, taking the initiative away from the believers right away. My other choice is to invite some of my pagan friends and ask them to give a blessing - without giving away their beliefs in advance. :popcorn:

[ScreamingMeemie]

158. Life is too short to worry about the stupid stuff.

You can say "grace" at my table...and I don't have to listen.

[Mugu]

159. Every family has that member that everybody else talks about

after they leave. For those that think that their family doesn't have one, that's because it's you.

[krispos42]

160. "You are of course free to as many silent prayers as you think necessary"

That is how I would have dealt with it.

[JI7]

161. Christmas is a national holiday in India

and do you know what kind of christian she is ? if she is a fundamentalist type that wants to preach about sin and other stuff then i could understand. if she was just going to say thanks that's another thing. just let her do it and go on.

or at least just tell her that you and many in the family do not believe in God.

[uppityperson]

162. Was the SIL the homeowner or just another visitor? Unclear.

If it was her place, you were wrong. It was their house, you didn't have to pray but could've just sat silently and waited.

If it was not her place, I'd leave it up to the hosts to decide and answer.

Exposing your kids to christianity in situations like this, being at someone else's place, won't hurt them. You could talk about it later and turn it into learning to be open minded of others.

Your "son's lady"? WTF? she belongs to him? His wife is his lady? Tell me you didn't mean that like that, please.

[Skittles]

163. I think you were wrong

I think religion is a bunch of nonsense but I tolerate what is tolerable. And the word is spelled ATHEIST, not athiest.

[1]

164. yes, you were wrong...

you were ignorant and intolerant and rude...

and the fact that you now present this argument before us to get some sort of validation for your rude act is pitiful.

you know you were wrong. or you wouldn't even ask the question.

don't ask us to absolve you and commend or condone your childish behavior.

you already know.



grow up...

[Greyhound]

165. Not at all.Tolerance is a two way street and the believers in the invisible man

in the sky have had it one way for far too long.

They want their delusions fine, but they can keep it to themselves.
:kick:

[AngryAmish]

169. You should have stabbed her in the neck with your fork

[GreenEyedLefty]

170. I think you were in the right...

At first I thought you were in SIL's home... but then I realized you were at your son's house. I think SIL was rude to suggest saying grace in someone else's home, especially one where there is a mix of belief and nonbelief.

[BlooInBloo]

171. I have no problem with When In Rome-ing my way thru such things....

EDIT: Their idiocy doesn't cost me anything.

[seabeyond]

172. i wouldnt behave that way. her saying thank you hurts no one. those with

differing views arent going to change "sides" all of a suddewn or be unduly influenced. in my book you taught the children rudeness and disrespect. we may not believe the same as others in this house, but i do teach children acceptance, tolerance and at all times respect.... and in love

[Balbus]

173. Yes, you were wrong.

But you already knew that. You just wanted to throw out your "cool" story so everyone can see what a "macho" guy you were by shouting down a woman.

[The2ndWheel]

177. Ah, diversity

A wonderfully messy thing.

[El Pinko]

178. I'm an atheist, and I think that was pretty rude.

Editing because I read a few more of the posts...


If it was my house and my table, I would thank my guests to not babble mumbo-jumbo at my table, but you were a guest so you should have let the hosts decide how to handle it.

I imagine if it had been your son's lady's folks doing a cow dance or whatever nonsense the Hindus do, you would have been more tolerant.

I dislike Christianity as much as anyone, but I don't dislike it any more or less than any of the others. Don't let your personal animosity toward (and probably numerous bad personal experiences with) Christianity prevent you from being gracious when visiting friends or relatives.

If you don't like eating with people who say grace, don't. You shouldn't have used it as a platform to make some smart-assed statement about how stupid religion is.

[Midlodemocrat]

180. Yes, you did.

[Scout]

181. well she asked, and you answered honestly.

i see nothing wrong with what you did.

[LWolf]

185. In the interest of interfaith community,

it might have been better to say, "I'll say it."

Then you could be silent for a moment, and/or say some words of appreciation for food and health that don't refer to Deity, and move on. Or have the Hindu give a blessing from her faith.

My (adult) son, faced with this situation, jumped in and said, "Good bread, good meat, good gosh, let's eat," and started eating. Ignoring the looks of shock on the faces of those who expected to speak to their god, and those who thought he would refuse, and those who thought he would silently grit his teeth through someone's "grace."

I've been at the table when those who like to say grace simply use a moment to do so, silently, while the rest of us move on with the meal.

[LSK]

188. Wrong

You are not being respectful of someone elses views. This is no different then fundies not respecting any other religious views.

Some fights serve no purpose whatever and this was one of them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

189. When you're in someone else's house, you follow their customs

I had a different answer printed out until I reread the OP and saw that this incident took place at your son's house, not at your sister-in-law's house.

But the same principle applies. She was at your house, she certainly knows that you're atheists, and she was trying to show off her piety.

If her faith required her to say grace, she should have done so quietly and unobtrusively. After all, it shouldn't matter whether YOU'RE listening, should it?

I say this as a Christian, by the way.

[Xenotime]

192. You sure showed the fundies./

[Donald Ian Rankin]

195. What would be the correct response to "anyone mind if I don't say grace" in a Christian household?

I'm afraid I think you were wrong - what you did was just as judgemental and intolerant as demanding that the non-Christians at a predominantly Christian meal take part in saying a Christian grace.

[otherlander]

197. Wrong.

[demobabe]

198. Trying to say "Right" or "Wrong" is short sighted

What is important is your relationship with your son and his family.

Realistically, what impact does the SIL have on the entire situation? It's doubtful a prayer is going to make anybody Christians if that isn't their belief. Annoying for the moment, possibly, sure.

Had I been in that situation, I might have opted to ask the SIL that we give thanks for the food, but I would prefer it to not reflect any given religion. As an atheist, I'm sure you can be thankful for food, and just take a moment to acknowledge that. Why focus on the annoying person and what perceived imposition she brings? Why not focus on the good parts of your life, like the chance to be with your son and his family?

Any one of us could be dead tomorrow, and I don't think stuff like the SIL's prayer compares to the truly important things in life you should be grateful for, regardless of your own religious stance.

[Dreamer Tatum]

202. No, you did GREAT, making the decisions for everyone in someone else's home

GIANT high-five for you, you beacon of liberal tolerance.


:eyes:

[Orangepeel]

203. A better answer might have been "I won't be joining, but go ahead" as you reach for the potatoes

[Pastiche423]

209. I'm w/the "she asked a question, you answered" camp

A number of people on this thread have said, saying a prayer doesn't hurt anyone. How can anyone say that when they don't know the life experiences of the other person?

I have been hurt and/or made to feel bad by religious people in my life. I want nothing of their religion. As long as they keep it away from me, then it's fine. But if they try to impose it on me in any fashion, then it is not.

If the situation was reversed, (the visitor was non religious and the hosts were) would it be o-kay for the non religious visitor to ask "anyone" if they minded if grace wasn't said?