Bush does NOT have to follow the DOJ guidelines for pardons

[Solly Mack]

EXECUTIVE CLEMENCY

1.11 Advisory nature of regulations. states:


PART 1--EXECUTIVE CLEMENCY--Table of Contents

Sec. 1.11 Advisory nature of regulations.

The regulations contained in this part are advisory only and for the
internal guidance of Department of Justice personnel. They create no
enforceable rights in persons applying for executive clemency, nor do
they restrict the authority granted to the President under Article II,
section 2 of the Constitution.


Article II,section 2 of the Constitution states:

Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

Scooter Libby is not John or Jane Q. Public. Scooter Libby, if pardoned, will not be made to follow some guidelines the rest of us would have to follow. Bush Inc. has never worked that way. I don't believe he is going to start now.

[goclark]

1. In other words, Libby can pass GO and never go to jail nt

[Solly Mack]

2. Libby could be legally pardoned tomorrow

and that would be the end of it for Libby.

[shain from kane]

3. Let's see the signing statement. Libby is probably mentioned by name.

[Fridays Child]

4. Notwithstanding the fact that he has followed them and has even recently...

...indicated that he would continue to do so, you're correct: he doesn't have to.

And he probably won't.

[Solly Mack]

6. Yes - he followed those guidelines for Joe Blow

Libby ain't Joe Blow

Libby is one of the crowd..albeit one of the crowd they want to go away for a while and be real quiet.

Bush and his sense of entitlement for those of his ilk is to be expected - the man is corrupt. Yes, it's hypocrisy but then we are talking about a man who instituted a torture policy. I don't think being called a hypocrite bothers him.

[solara]

5. Can the President pardon someone for crimes not yet prosecuted?

Like a blanket pardon... "Whatever he/she has done or may do in my name is heretofore pardoned" ??

For instance.. if Libby is brought up on other charges separate from the ones for which he was convicted ..would the pardon extend to those as well?

Just askin'

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Hell, yes. Poppy pardoned Cap Weinberger before he had a chance

to testify against Poppy on Iran-Contra.

[solara]

9. Oh. geez. That really sucks. nt

[Jackpine Radical]

10. Yeah. That's pretty much what we thought at the time.

Come to think of it, these goddam Republicans been fucking with my head for a long time.

[solara]

13. I just didn't realize the pardon for Weinberger was BEFORE the fact nt

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Details:

http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm
BUSH PARDONS WEINBERGER, FIVE OTHERS TIED TO IRAN-CONTRA

(Calls Weinberger "true American patriot") (650) By Dian McDonald USIA White House Correspondent Washington -- President Bush December 24 granted pardons to former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger and five other individuals for their conduct related to the Iran-Contra affair.

Bush said Weinberger -- who had been scheduled to go on trial in Washington January 5 on charges related to Iran-Contra -- was a "true American patriot," who had served with "distinction" in a series of public positions since the late 1960s.

"I am pardoning him not just out of compassion or to spare a 75-year-old patriot the torment of lengthy and costly legal proceedings, but to make it possible for him to receive the honor he deserves for his extraordinary service to our country," Bush said in a proclamation granting executive clemency.

The president also pardoned five other persons who already had pleaded guilty or had been indicted or convicted in connection with the Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages investigation. They were Elliott Abrams, a former assistant secretary of state for Inter-American affairs; former National Security Adviser Robert McFarlane; and Duane Clarridge, Alan Fiers, and Clair George, all former employees of the Central Intelligence Agency.
...
Although a president has unlimited pardon powers, it is highly unusual to pardon someone before trial and conviction. The best-known precedent -- following the Watergate political scandal during the Nixon administration -- was former President Ford's pardon in 1974 of former President Nixon, who was never indicted.

[Solly Mack]

21. Reading that again just angers me all over again

[solara]

24. Me too. Dammit. I wish I had been a lot more awake and aware back then.

Damn. Damn. Damn.

:banghead:

[Solly Mack]

8. He can pardon him over and over and over again

Or he can pardon him for any and all wrong doing connected to the Plame outing.

He can pardon a person before they are charged, after they are charged, while they are being tried, and after they've been convicted.

[endarkenment]

26. Gerald Ford: Richard Nixon.

blanket pardon for any and all crimes committed.

[MissMarple]

11. Of course. And he will look bad if he does.

I say go on ahead, George. But that won't happen until January 2009, unless Scooter doesn't get a new trial, looses his appeal and really doesn't want to go to jail. I would advise him not to fly in small airplanes.

[Solly Mack]

14. It's not the self-preserving move to pardon Libby at this time

and the Bush family have a sense for survival....even if they have to drag along certain members kicking and screaming

[H2O Man]

12. He can.

But he won't.

[Solly Mack]

16. I don't think he'll pardon him at this time - if at all

I'm just addressing that a President does not have to follow the DOJ guidelines.

Upon leaving office he might pardon him ...but well, any number of things could change that in the mean time

[solara]

17. I'm really glad you posted this...it helps to see the whole picture nt

[WyLoochka]

28. No one said he HAD to follow

the guidelines. However, he himself has stated often, since first assuming the governorship in Texas and carrying on through now as Pretzeldunce that he and his administration adhere to the "processes" already established for pardons and clemency.

So whether or not he HAS to follow the guidelines - it would be a complete departure from what he has done in such cases for years. He would be violating his own "resolute principles" in pardoning Libby.

So whether or not he HAS to follow the guidelines, we should hold his feet to the fire and demand that he do so. That would mean that Libby couldn't even ask for a pardon for at least five years among other complications posed by the DOJ Guidelines.


http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/petitions.htm

[Solly Mack]

29. Never said they did...but Libby does qualify for a pardon

simply because the President has the power to pardon period.

It's just that simple. Anyone a President can pardon qualifies...because those DOJ guidelines don't change the power granted by the Constitution. That's my point.

A lot of people were not reading the entire article on the other thread and even some that did think that somehow magically makes Bush concerned about what they think.

I'm just so sure the man that instituted a torture policy is really going to care if people call him a hypocrite or expect him to behave in a certain manner.

IF Bush chooses to pardon Libby,there is NOTHING Congress can do to stop it. He won't listen to anyone's demands.

Bush will pardon or not pardon Libby based solely on what best serves Bush.

All the demands in the world won't change that.

All the name-calling (flip-flopper, hypocrite) in the world won't change that.

All the hope in the world won't change that.

We're talking about Bush...not someone with a conscience.

[WyLoochka]

30. I know it won't change his mind

However, a huge crescendo of protest from all over could help to draw off even more of his "supporters." It certainly won't help for us to go around saying "so what - he can do anything he wants." That is what "his base" will be saying.

[Solly Mack]

31. I don't see anyone saying (to quote you)"so what - he can do anything he wants."

Do you?

Nor does "his base", again to quote you, claim he can do anything he wants...they claim he doesn't do anything wrong when he does something wrong or illegal or outside his authority. The difference there is very important.

There is also a difference in knowing Bush doesn't care what people think and not speaking out against Bush.

You can know Bush doesn't give a fuck and still speak out against him
You can know Bush will do exactly as he pleases and still speak out against him

Knowing one doesn't prevent the other. Stating one doesn't stop the other.

To suggest it does is more than a little fallacious.

[solara]

15. What if the President's credibility is shot to hell.. would he still be able to hand out pardons

without resistance or accountability?

Sorry if these are dumb questions.

[Solly Mack]

19. Not dumb questions at all. Credibility is a factor

Bush can only continue to hurt the GOP's chances in upcoming elections by acting in a manner that sparks outrage.

He can pardon without resistance ...a President has that power.

Accountability is another matter and comes in all forms.

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. That's correct.. I heard Jonathan Turley talking about this and he said NO, he doesn't

because they are just GUIDELINES. MOST Presidents HONOR those guidelines, but we all know the psycho NEVER does the proper thing.:eyes: The guidelines are just that, guidelines. The psycho can pardon the murderer if that's the mood he's in.

[dogday]

22. Yep, he is the decider and he will be doing the deciding nt

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[Solly Mack]

25. I just don't want people getting their hopes up

thinking Libby has to wait 5 years...because he doesn't.

If any President wishes to pardon Libby, it's a done deal. No wait. No nothing.

[rurallib]

23. hahahahahaha - Bush following rules -hahahahahaha

rules are for the poor and stupid, not pResidents. Uncle Dick told him.

[Solly Mack]

27. In this case he isn't required to follow the rules

They don't apply to him as President.

But it is funny that anyone would think Bush would apply the rules to one of his ilk.