Manifest of downed helo-- 2 COLs, 1 LT COL, 2 Com. Sgt. Maj's, 1 MAJ, 1 CPT, 1 1st SGT, 2 Staff SGTs

[lebkuchen]

1 SGT 1st class, and 1 corporal. All in a day's work for the Chimpster...a lot of expertise up in smoke, expertise the US can't afford to lose, in one fell swoop no less~. Ages 29 - 50, fyi.

http://www.defenselink.mil/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=10435


The corporal, Cpl. Victor M. Langarica, 29, of Decatur, Ga., who was assigned to the 86th Signal Battalion, Fort Huachuca, Ariz., is listed as a SGT in an article posted by Sabra: "He is the one who killed my son," well worth a read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x37208

[atreides1]

1. I served in the 86th Signal Batallion

From July 1982 to July 1984.

My sympathies to all of the families.:(

[shadowknows69]

2. Tell me someone didn't know

this bird was filled with officers.

[lebkuchen]

3. So many officers, you'd think the media would be raising your question

Is it?

[Recursion]

5. Not to mention the senior NCOs

A command sergeant major is the enlisted equivalent of a general: usually 25+ years in, multiple interdisciplinary assignments, administrative experience to get stuff done, advanced education... losing a command sergeant major can bring a battalion or even a brigade to a standstill for months.

[lebkuchen]

9. Isn't Command SGT Maj. considered "officer?"

or NCO? I thought once you were at the top of the NCO rank, you achieved officer status. Guess not.

[TahitiNut]

12. NCO/Enlisted ... one step below the single highest rated NCO in the military.

A Sergeant Major is an E-9, the highest grade. The Sergeant Major of the Army is the highest ranking enlisted man/woman in the Army. There's only one. His name is Ken Preston. Just below him are the Command Sergeant Majors (also E-9's) and they're rare - only in units of battalion size or larger.

Losing just one CSM is a disaster ... TWO is catastrophic. This just can't be "luck of the draw." There's no way that chopper wasn't known to carry that kind of rank.

It's easy to think of them as 'officers' since there isn't an officer below the rank of O5 that wouldn't do what a CSM 'suggested.' It'd be career suicide. CSM's damn near run the military.

[Recursion]

30. I once made the mistake of calling an Army sergeant major

an "ordinary" sergeant major as opposed to a command sergeant major.

Man, that went over really, really badly. At least in the Corps we had Sergeant Major vs. Master Gunnery Sergeant to make it easier, but I understand the Army starts the tech/leadership split at Corporal.

[TahitiNut]

35. Yes, back in "my day" the tech/grunt split went from E4 to E8 (I think)

I was a Spec/4 then a Spec/5 ... and when I was an E5 (Spec) I sure didn't pretend to get in the way of NCO E5's when it came to field ops. (I'd NEVER call myself a sergeant - never.) If I was in the field and senior, with a Corporal in combat arms, I'd easily let him take the (unofficial) lead. It was a bit different in those dayss ... I get the impression that they're giving Spec ratings to combat arms folks now. I don't ever recall seeing a Spec in combat arms back in the Nam days.

[Recursion]

16. Negative. NCOs work for a living

I was a Marine sergeant and believe me you'd have caught hell if you called me an officer :) (and I'm still convinced that being a sergeant in the Marine Corps is the best rank in the whole military.)

All 4 branches have 3 sets of ranks:
Commissioned Officer
Warrant Officer
Enlisted

Commissioned Officers have a commission from Congress stating they are a gentleman or lady and therefor are competent to assume the command of troops. Warrant Officers have a warrant from the President stating something similar but without the gentleman/lady bit.

Any officer is senior in rank to any enlisted person. Senior enlisted people are called "non-commissioned officers" or "petty officers", but that doesn't make us "officers". So, a Master Gunnery Sergeant with 30 years in would salute a second lieutenant just out of OCS, and is under oath to render obedience to orders from that lieutenant.

However, as someone pointed out upthread, unless you're a Lt. Colonel or higher, you can seriously, seriously screw up your career as an officer if you rub a Sergeant Major or First Sergeant the wrong way. Yes, you're technically in command of your senior NCO, but if you're a young officer he's there to protect you and (moreso) your troops from the consequences of your own inexperience and bad judgment.

The point is, no death is acceptable in Iraq, but losing 2 Command Sergeants Major and a First Sergeant is nothing short of an absolute catastrophe, and this will have serious and negative consequences for the combat readiness of their units.

[TahitiNut]

19. Rendering salutes can be a truly perverse game.

It's up to the enlisted man to initiate the salute ... but he gets LOTS of 'windage' in choosing WHEN to do so (even though there are 'rules'). I've seen shrewd NCOs jerk around junior officers like puppies on a leash.

[lebkuchen]

24. Thanks for the input.

[HamdenRice]

48. Forgive my ignorance, but why does the system work this way?

Why are there these "two tracks"? Why isn't the system unified so that enlisted men "graduate" to officer status depending on demonstrated ability and experience?

It seems to me this is just a relic of the British class system, in which some people simply could never become "gentlemen" because of the class they were born into, and others were gentlement simply because of their class, and never the twain shall meet.

[Recursion]

54. Most business works this way too

People with a degree start on a management track managing people with vastly more experience and technical know-how than they have. It is a remnant of the class system (though it's much older than England) but it's survived so long because in a lot of ways it works.

[HamdenRice]

65. Yes, but not in the peculiar way this thread was discussing

Businesses and many other institutions have one or more tiers, as you describe.

But the military seems to have different systems. By that, I am referring to the phenomenon of the sargeant major, who on the one hand is considered practically a general, but on the other hand is never an officer.

In a corporation, there is upper management, professionals, staff and so on, but staff either stay staff or are promoted into management, in which case they become equal to other management. And, btw, there are a surprising number of top management in certain business -- Wall St., talent agencies, even banks -- who started out as staff. But unlike in the military, they actually become management.

The only equivalent I can think of in business would be someone who rises to the top of some utility department, like the mailroom or security, who is still not management, but gets a lot of informal respect.

But the military system just seems strange -- that enlisted men can rise to such high positions of power, but never become "management."

[Recursion]

67. I think something like a quarter of officers are mustangers nowadays

That is, they started out as enlisted. It's something the military has been encouraging for exactly the reasons you allude to.

[HamdenRice]

68. Is that through officer candidate school?

Is that what distinguishes OCS from the academies?

[Recursion]

69. That's two separate questions

On the one hand, there are two ways to become an officer: through the service academies or through OCS. In either case, the candidate may or may not have prior enlisted experience. A certain number of slots in each academy are reserved for prior enlisted, but most mustangers get a bachelor's degree one way or another and then do OCS.

Virtually all warrant officers are prior enlisted, also.

[Bandit]

62. It does happen, they give field commissions

Usually though the only way to become officer is through Acadamy, OCS (Officer Candidate School) or ROTC (Reserve Officer training) College..In some cases Field commissions are given but usually only in combat situations. :shrug:

[HamdenRice]

66. Yes, it does seem to be education based nt

[HamdenRice]

64. deleted - wrong place nt

[Thothmes]

87. enlisted/officer

There is a system of sorts. Warrant officers and Limited Duty Officers all originated as enlisted men. They are not eligible for command but are assigned officer duties in their own specialty.

[TahitiNut]

17. Yes, indeed. It's a very rare position and ESSENTIAL to good order and discipline.

Jesus! Losing TWO CSM's in a single chopper downing just cannot be an accident or 'luck' of the shooter. I can't imagine that much rank in one chopper in Nam. It just wouldn't happen. Somebody fucked up BIG TIME.

[formercia]

53. A routine sheduled visit?

One thing they drummed into our heads when dealing with hostile surveillance was not to get into a routine unless that's what you wanted the enemy to see, otherwise someday, someone might be waiting when you least expect it.

This is a combat zone. Never give a hostile force a heads-up.

[FogerRox]

78. Who says its an accident?

These guys are from all over, different divisions, etc, is that normal? WOuld there be any reason for so many disparete origins being on the same mission?

[GreenZoneLT]

86. Not an atypical Iraqi bird load-out, actually

This place is insanely brass-heavy; every Army 0-4 and up has to get his Iraq ticket punched for career reasons. Most of the regular troops travel by convoy, leaving the helos to the brass. Looks like those guys were on some kind of National Guard informational field trip, which would explain why you had two senior enlisted along.

Seriously, you should see the level of brass at the Embassy; rivals the Pentagon. I feel like a junior enlisted person. Very different from Camp Victory, or other places where there are actual soldiers.

[mariema]

89. ticket punchers

When he heard about all the high ranking casualties, the first thing my husband said was "sounds like a chopper full of ticket-punchers ran into some bad luck".

This is tragic no matter the reason why they were on that flight.

[TahitiNut]

10. This wasn't just 'luck' - no way, no how.

Nope. You don't get that much rank by accident in one downing. Nope. Unh-uh.

[Recursion]

21. I don't buy it either

Somebody told somebody that shouldn't have known that.

[tabasco]

56. Not exactly luck but that doesn't mean inside job.

Find a relatively calm rear area installation where there is not a lot of security and set up an anti-helicopter ambush in a nearby civilian area and wait. In this case, the guerillas found themselves lucky and successful to bring down a chopper doing a leaders' recon. It was bad judgment to have all the brass in one bird but really the only thing that would be questioned would be having the 2 full-birds in the aircraft.

[Bucky]

85. I dunno. Very VERY unlikely shit happens just by happenstance in war.

Wars are messy and unpredictable and full of random crap. That's why they should be avoided whenever possible. Wars are statistics in action--usually in deadly violent action. Flukes happen. I agree that it's heavily probable that the chopper was targeted by insurgent agents who'd infiltrated our side. I don't think you can say it's a certainty.

But that's not a very important point compared to the tragic loss of these dedicated troops. We should never forget that they died because our country failed to stop an unnecessary war. They trusted America to make the right decisions and all Americans, including those of us who opposed the war, let them down.

[Recursion]

4. Full birds and CSMs don't grow on trees

By a rough cocktail-napkin calculation, that's 150 man-years of institutional knowledge that was just lost.

Why the hell were that many HVT's in one bird? You can't tell me word wouldn't get out. Is this the "emerald city bubble" mentality sneaking up on us?

[FogerRox]

79. they all seem to be from different divisions, is that normal?

[Unperson]

6. That is a lot of brass.

Fort Huachuca is a key compenent of NSA operations. Sounds like it was a high level mission.

[Recursion]

18. And it included the chief medical officer in Iraq

"orientation flight" my ass. Something was up, and although my nose can't be nearly as accurate as it was when I was over there, I smell a set-up by a local who had a little too much trust placed in him.

[lebkuchen]

29. Here's a brief article on Col. Allgood

A University of Oklahoma Medical Center graduate who was the top medical officer for U-S troops in Iraq was among the 12 people killed when a Black Hawk helicopter crashed this weekend.

Colonel Brian D. Allgood had been serving in Iraq for about six months before the crash Saturday northeast of Baghdad.


http://www.kokh25.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.ok/31a199ab-www.okcfox.com.shtml

[Recursion]

31. So much for the "orientation flight" BS -- and look at who was on:

The chief medical officer in Iraq
A spook (at E4 I'm guessing he was signals)
A bunch of air assault guys

I still say something stinks here.

[TahitiNut]

33. The four Air Assault guys were probably crew.

It looks like medical people with one infantry escort and a radio/comm guy (the E4). In Nam, a combat arms specialist (infantry) would accompany anyone that was non-combat skilled.

Just guessing. (See my post below.)

[Unperson]

34. Air assault meaning special ops?

Like the guys out of Hunter Army Airfield?

[Recursion]

36. TahitiNut says no; must be an Army/Corps difference

In the Corps flight crew has its own MOS and units; "enlisted flight crew", and air assault is a (rather rare) subset of infantry. According to TN the Army uses Air Assault as the designation for all enlisted flight crew, so maybe my suspicion is misplaced.

[TahitiNut]

38. I can't be sure, of course ... but it was a Blackhawk.

I figure it's "frosting" (name inflation) for anyone in the National Guard and really doesn't have the "special ops" status it had 30-40 years ago. I have to figure they were doing ferry service.

[Unperson]

81. I was thinking of Special Operations Aviation Regiment

[jmowreader]

58. Air Assault is a shit badge. Disregard it.

Here's the deal: Right after Vietnam, when the Army was trying to figure out (1) what to do with two airborne divisions and (2) what to do with all these fucking helicopters, someone at Fort Benning figured out they could create a whole division that specializes in entering the battle by being dropped out of, or rappelling out of, helicopters.

They took the 101st Airborne, which is stationed at Fort Campbell--which has the largest airfield in the Army, so there was plenty of room to park all the aircraft--and converted it to an Airmobile Division. They rappel from helis. They jump out of them. They slingload equipment from them. They even invented the Artillery Raid, which is not a very safe thing to do.* And eventually, they decided that Air Assault was a much better name for these soldiers than Airmobile.

All well and good, right? As long as the Army kept Air Assault among people who really needed it, it was.

But the Army has always had soldiers who wanted to Go Above And Beyond And Get The Little Badge To Prove It. For many years, the preferred badge was the Airborne Badge. You went to Fort Benning for three weeks, got abused by the cadre for two of them, jumped out of an airplane five times, got your jump wings and went back to your desk job. And it was very easy to get a guy sent to jump school if he wanted to go--wait till he was ready to go to another unit, which at one time we liked to do every couple of years to broaden your scope, and send him to Benning TDY Enroute. Well...Airborne School finally came down and said, "look, we can't handle all these guys who'll never use this once they leave here, we need the slots for people who are going to be paratroopers."

The slots went away, but the soldiers' desire to Go Above And Beyond didn't. And just coincidentally...the Army also noticed that you can open an air assault school, real cheap, anywhere they've got an obstacle course (all military bases have one of some description) and a few Blackhawk helicopters. So they started opening these schools. They've got one at the Military District of Washington--which is about 92 percent paper pushers. They have to issue you a rucksack so you can go to the fucking school--lotsa MDW guys don't have them.

I figure that if you can get an Air Assault Badge in a place that's so detached from the rest of the Army you see boots twice a year (when you go to the range to prove you can still remember which end of your rifle the bullets come out of), it's not worth having.

* The Artillery Raid is a maneuver designed to extend the maximum effective range ofthe 105mm howitzer. It is performed by loading a gun, some assembled rounds and a crew into a CH-47D Chinook helicopter. Note I said "assembled" rounds--these bad boys have the primers inserted in the cases and the fuzes screwed in and armed. Anyway, you cram all this shit in a Chinook, fly behind enemy lines to well within 105mm range of whatever you want to get rid of, land with the back of the heli facing the enemy, shove the gun out the back of the aircraft, lay it, fire the mission, put it back in the helicopter before the counterbattery fire comes in, and fly back to friendly lines. Like I said, it's not the safest way to spend your morning.

[lebkuchen]

59. Question

How long would it take a Blackhawk to fly 325 miles? Does it do it on one tank of gas with a full crew?

[jmowreader]

72. About three hours, if they weren't leaning on it

The UH--60 Black Hawk helicopter's never-exceed speed is 222mph. Unless you were doing casualty evacuation or attempting to get away from someone who was shooting at you, you'd never fly anywhere near that fast. This was supposedly an orientation flight, which basically means sightseeing, so they were probably doing a little over 100mph.

As far as gas goes...the Black Hawk can go about 400 miles just on the internal tanks. These guys probably had external tanks too. There's a problem with the external tanks, though: they're mounted on stub wings that make your aircraft look, from a distance, like it was a Russian MI-24 Hind. In some war we went to with these birds, a numbnuts ADA gunner with a Stinger shot one of these down because he thought it really was a Hind.

Now let me tell you the difference between civilian aviation and military aviation. If you go to any civil airplane manufacturer's website, they give you a bunch of weights: how much it weighs with no fuel, how much it's allowed to take off with, how much fuel it holds...you get to balance payload against range when deciding how much gas to put in the plane. In the military world, we assume you want it to show up with a full tank of gas, so all ourmission planning data is based on the aircraft being full of fuel. (For one thing, it keeps the S-3 Air from having to keep calling the aviation battalion to ask them how much fuel was in it when it left the airfield.) The Black Hawks in the fleet now are rated to carry 8000 pounds.

[TahitiNut]

7. Geezus!! That's a LOT of rank in one downed chopper!

I may be very mistaken, but I don't think we allowed one chopper to carry that kind of rank in Nam. Only one enlisted man below E6? One officer below O4? It sure sounds to me like somebody KNEW that chopper was a high-value target.

[JCMach1]

22. Any other military intelligence folks? Huachuca is Spookville

for the Army.

[TahitiNut]

26. An E4 at Fort Huachuca has got shit duty.

They actually moved the gate so the Army wouldn't have to pay "isolated duty" pay back 40 years ago when I was in the Army. It was so far out in the boonies that they didn't even have hookers and bars outside the gate. :evilgrin:

When I was in, it was a fairly common threat to junior enlisted people that they'd get transferred to Fort Huachuca if they didn't straighten up.

[JohnnyLib2]

8. More tragedy, more questions of competence.

Have to wonder if the rapidly rotating leadership is a factor.
Woodward's book shows that theme from the beginning.

[T Wolf]

11. Don't they know the Starfleet rule about putting too many command

officers in one shuttle craft?

Just Damn!

[lebkuchen]

13. Chimpy neglected to mention this in his SOTU address.

Nothing at all. Instead, he said we should give his plan a chance. He's run out of chances, and he's rapidly depleting his higher ranks.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

46. because concentrating on bad news helps the enema

and with assholes like him, that combination would be, well, explosive.

[Swamp Rat]

14. Holy SHIT!

:wow: How the fuck did this happen? Why so much brass in one chopper?

[SoCalDem]

15. A lot of "eggs" in one basket.. Wonder whose bright idea that was

There are probably people right now trying to pin it on al Maliki :eyes:

[democrank]

20. This makes me sick.

Have we won yet?

[Bunny]

23. Thanks for posting this, and thanks to all the military people responding.

I am not very familiar with the military ranking system, other than what I've learned from watching M*A*S*H. It does seem very curious that all of these important high-ranking people would be on the same flight. What a tragedy.

[vogonity]

25. Kicking

This seems like a really big deal to me.

[catnhatnh]

27. A thought on causation....

Back at Ft Carson in '72, come the last part of the month the flight hangers at the airfield would flood with dozens of high rankers trying to make hours to keep their flight pay....A turbine vibration test on the last day of the month would look like a cross between the NY subway and the Seargent Pepper album...Just sayin'

[TahitiNut]

32. Four were clearly flight crew. The rest look like medical personnel.

(This guy was a surgeon - highest ranking surgeon in the Army according to reports.) ... Col. Brian D. Allgood, 46, of Oklahoma, who was assigned to the 30th Medical Brigade, Europe Regional Medical Command, Heidelberg, Germany.


(Hard to say. Infantry escort?) ... Staff Sgt. Darryl D. Booker, 37, of Midlothian, Va., who was assigned to the 29th Infantry Division, Virginia Army National Guard, Sandston, Va.


(Flight crew, I believe.) ... Sgt. 1st Class John G. Brown, 43, of Little Rock, Ark., who was assigned to the Arkansas Army National Guard’s 1st Battalion, 185th Aviation Regiment (Air Assault), 77th Aviation Brigade, Camp Robinson, Ark.


(Guessing he was medical staff.) ... Lt. Col. David C. Canegata III, 50, of St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands, who was assigned to the Virgin Islands Army National Guard, Christiansted, U.S. Virgin Islands.


(A female CSM - very rare! ... probably medical staff.) ... Command Sgt. Maj. Marilyn L. Gabbard, 46, of Polk City, Iowa, who was assigned to Joint Forces Headquarters, Iowa Army National Guard, Camp Dodge, Johnston, Iowa.


(Another CSM ... medic?) ... Command Sgt. Maj. Roger W. Haller, 49, of Davidsonville, Md., who was assigned to the 70th Regiment, Regional Training Institute - Maryland, Maryland Army National Guard, Reisterstown, Md.


(Perhaps an anesthesiologist?) .... Col. Paul M. Kelly, 45, of Stafford, Va., who was assigned to the Joint Force Headquarters of the Virginia Army National Guard in Blackstone, Va.


(Assistant to the Lt. Col ... medical?) ... Sgt. 1st Class Floyd E. Lake, 43, of St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, who was assigned to the Virgin Islands Army National Guard, Christiansted, U.S. Virgin Islands.


(Hard to tell.) ... Cpl. Victor M. Langarica, 29, of Decatur, Ga., who was assigned to the 86th Signal Battalion, Fort Huachuca, Ariz.


The last three look like flight crew. ...

(Copilot?) ... Capt. Sean E. Lyerly, 31, of Pflugerville, Texas., who was assigned to the Texas Army National Guard’s 36th Combat Aviation Brigade, 36th Infantry Division, Austin, Texas.

(Pilot?) ... Maj. Michael V. Taylor, 40, of North Little Rock, Ark., who was assigned to the Arkansas Army National Guard’s 1st Battalion, 185th Aviation Regiment (Air Assault), 77th Aviation Brigade, Camp Robinson, Ark.

1st Sgt. William T. Warren, 48, of North Little Rock, Ark., who was assigned to the Arkansas Army National Guard’s 1st Battalion, 185th Aviation Regiment (Air Assault), 77th Aviation Brigade, Camp Robinson, Ark.

[lebkuchen]

37. Helpful. Thanks. On the female CSM:

In the article she's called Sgt. Maj. Marilyn Gabbard. She was married to a retired Command Sgt. Maj. who was about 18 years older.

"Her job was to be a liaison between the troops and the Guard, to help fix problems," said stepdaughter Sherri Gabbard of Waterloo, a kindergarten teacher at Longfellow Elementary School. "They were getting on the helicopter to go inspect troops."

http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2007/01/24/news/top_story/doc45b75031c3dc3042604255.txt

Does troop inspection usually require so many high ranks?

[TahitiNut]

41. "troop inspection" doesn't really make sense to me.

It's possible they were visiting field hospitals and outlying medical units, I suppose. I wouldn't use that language to describe such visits and I have no idea why so many high-ranking people would be doing that.

It sounds to me like they might be wallowing in stateside Mickey Mouse crap. If they're doing that in IRaq, then the military sure hasn't 'adapted' like they did in Nam ... or even Korea. In Nam, the last thing they'd do is have the kind of "celebrity tours" with entourages they pull stateside or even in Germany. While it's ordinary to have a very senior officer and high-ranking ass-kissers and sycophants in a "close formation" (noses up butts) in non-combat areas, it's VERY stupid to do the same thing where ordinance is being used and snipers are watching.

Christ! In Nam, if two senior officers got together outide of a base camp they'd regard themselves as a target. That's why we didn't salute. That's why rank insignia were camo'd. They knew Charlie drooled over such opportunities.

Iraq is nothing but snipers and sappers ... all looking for nice, FAT targts. This was really DUMB.

[lebkuchen]

47. Sec. Gates paid a surprise visit to Iraq on 19 Jan.

The crash supposedly happened on the 20th.

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jan. 19, 2007

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates slipped into Basra, Iraq, early Friday – unannounced – to confer with U.S. and allied leaders, a day after a group of retired generals in Washington slammed the Bush plan on Iraq, and hours after word of arrest of an aide to Iraq's top militia leader.

Britain, which has the largest troop contingent among the U.S. allies, with about 7,000 soldiers in the Basra area, is planning to withdraw a large portion of them this year.

Gates said at the outset of his weeklong overseas trip that he realized the security situation in southern Iraq is different than in Baghdad, where the U.S. is building up its troop strength.

Gates was meeting with Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, as well as Maj. Gen. Jonathan Shaw, the newly arrived commander of British forces here. Later Gates was to meet with commanders from Poland, Australia, Denmark and Romania, and have lunch with coalition troops who are training the Iraqi army.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/18/iraq/main2369721.shtml

Were they gathered to meet with Gates? Seems logical, if the top medical officer was with them. The stepdaughter of the female CMS would have been correct, then, that the CMS was there to inspect troops...Iraqi and US, perhaps working "together?"

[lebkuchen]

55. The article above says Gates was in Basra

about 325 mi. SE of Baghdad.

The NYT says the chopper went down about 30 mi. NE of Baghdad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/world/middleeast/21cnd-iraq.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Al Anbar province is the huge area west of Baghdad. There aren't likely many US helos with high ranking troops ever flying over that area. Isn't that why Gates was in the relatively calmer Basra?

The crash occurred at 4:00 p.m., according to the NYT. Had it come up the eastern border of Iraq from Basra? It would have been returning about 1 hour before sunset.

[mikeytherat]

39. Col. Allgood was a really good guy and close friend of my bro-in-law

(my bro-in-law is the DCO at Camp Victory)

mikey_the_rat

[TahitiNut]

45. In a combat zone, doctors, nurses, and medics are treated like gold.

I dodn't know anyone in Nam that wouldn't gladly clear a path for any of them. We all knew how much we needed them.

[peacebaby3]

57. Mikey: I'm so sorry to hear of his death. My husband serves and is

retiring with 20 in next month so it really hits me hard when I hear of these tragedies. I will keep his family in my thoughts and prayers.

I know that those that serve in the medical field of the military often have a very different perspective on war because of all the injury and death they see. I don't know about any of these people, but I have noticed that there are very few "gung-ho" types in this field. I will keep them and all of their loved ones in my thoughts. May they find the peace they so deserve.

[Renew Deal]

28. That is a very heavy toll.

http://www.easternct.edu/personal/faculty/pocock/ranks.htm

[lonestarnot]

40. I am speculating that this could be an inside job.

[TahitiNut]

43. It seems clear that the 'enemy' got some good intel on this flight.

I don't believe in 'luck' in getting such a high-value target. If the military is packing flights commonly with so much concentrated brass, then they've become total assholes.

[lonestarnot]

50. Has this been confirmed an enemy splash?

[TahitiNut]

51. I think so ... as much as possible, I guess.

AFAIK, a "spokesman" from the Pentagon confirmed it was a shoulder-fired ground-to-air missile and the military in Iraq (Central Command) is non-committal.

I really don't think it's likely to be anything else.

[shadowknows69]

44. I'll go the tinfoil route with you lonestar

after everything else we've seen, why not?

[lonestarnot]

49. Part of the pairing with Iraqi police force. I bet GI's just can wait for the

full implementation of this pairing. How bout you?

[peacebaby3]

60. Yep! Amen to that. Lots of things have already happened that we

probably don't hear about because they want it to look like it's working.

[lonestarnot]

73. Oh and it's working so well, that over 2/3s of America is against it.

That just leaves less than a stinking turd.

[FogerRox]

80. I was told that the Marine version of the Blackhawk

has much fewer crashes than the Army version, because they take unwanteds and get 'em into a chopper that goes down over deep water or sumsuch.

[fooj]

42. Kick!

We need to keep this story alive. This is unbelievable.

[Kurovski]

52. My jaw dropped just reading the headline.

RIP to each of the departed.

Let's get out of Iraq, let's begin impeachment proceedings as soon as possible. The investigations currently begun in Washington are a step in that direction, and are most likely to result in America demanding these things.

[Pacifist Patriot]

61. Army brat sitting here with her mouth hanging open...

I relayed the list to my husband and in-laws. Nada. They have no clue what it means.

[me b zola]

63. Geezus

:(

[Hubert Flottz]

70. K&R

Wow...very odd. Very sad.


Edit...Could the equipment in Iraq be in such a bad state of repair by now, that the Army was running short of operable aircraft that day and they would take a chance like that out of necessity? Has the sand and the four years of hard service deadlined so many vehicles and aircraft that the military gear is stretched even thinner than we are being told. Equipment wears out just like soldiers do.

[lebkuchen]

83. Usually the DoD says the crash was due to something like that

This time it immediately said it was most likely due to enemy fire. Did the DoD not want to be embarrassed that it had sent so many high ranking officials in shoddy equipment, or have things deteriorated in Baghdad so much that VIPs must go to the "safer" Basra and have the high rankers come to them?

If you look down the list of casualties for the army, by far most of them are in their early 20s--I'd guess 22 to be the average. This flight had the youngest at 29, the oldest at 50, 12 people. Something unique was going on.

[babylonsister]

71. Just on NBC: 34 children lost a parent in this crash. That number

adds more context. So very sad.:cry:

[lonestarnot]

74. sucks ass!

:cry:

[babylonsister]

75. OT: Are you going

to be in DC Saturday?

[lonestarnot]

91. No but I sent 1/2 of my spirit, the other 1/2 is marching here in Phoenix today.

[lebkuchen]

84. One of the dead had five children.

[leftchick]

76. Capt. Sean E. Lyerly, 31.,1st Sgt. William T. Warren, 48, .. A Few Photos

Am I being tinfoil for thinking this one was targeted for a reason? So fucking sad.... :(



This undated photo provided by the family shows Capt. Sean E. Lyerly, 31, of Pflugerville, Texas, who died in Iraq, Saturday, Jan. 20, 2007. Lyerly was piloting the Army Black Hawk helicopter that went down in Iraq over the weekend, killing all 12 soldiers onboard, officials said Wednesday, Jan. 24, 2007. Lyerly had been assigned to the Texas Army National Guard's 36th Combat Aviation Brigade, 36th Infantry Division in Austin, Texas. (AP Photo/Lyerly family)



The undated photo provided by the Arkansas National Guard shows Arkansas Army National Guard 1st Sgt. William T. Warren, 48, of North Little Rock, Ark. Warren, attached to the Company B, 1st Battalion, 185th Aviation (Air Assault) Regiment of the 77th Aviation Brigade, died Saturday, Jan. 20, 2007, when a US Forces UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter went down northeast of Baghdad. (AP Photo/Arkansas National Guard)



The undated photo provided by the Arkansas National Guard shows Arkansas Army National Guard Maj. Michael Vernon Taylor, 40, of North Little Rock, Ark. Taylor, attached to the Company B, 1st Battalion, 185th Aviation (Air Assault) Regiment of the 77th Aviation Brigade, died Saturday, Jan. 20, 2007, when a US Forces UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter went down northeast of Baghdad. (AP Photo/Arkansas National Guard)



The undated photo provided by the Arkansas National Guard shows Arkansas Army National Guard Sgt. 1st Class John Gary Brown, 43, of Little Rock, Ark. Brown, attached to the Company B, 1st Battalion, 185th Aviation (Air Assault) Regiment of the 77th Aviation Brigade, died Saturday, Jan. 20, 2007, when a US Forces UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter went down northeast of Baghdad. (AP Photo/Arkansas National Guard)

[Scout1071]

77. So, so sad.

Thanks for posting their photos. My thoughts and prayers are with their families.

[lebkuchen]

88. A hell of a lot of wasted potential

Check out this cavalier Stripes headline:

Copter crash victims represented a cross-section of the U.S. Army

http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=43072

"Cross section?" Try, "motherlode of officer and enlisted ranks."

I hope somebody will report what their initial mission was. My bet, they met w/Gates in Basra re: the Brits pulling their troops out of Iraq, with the Iraqis sleighted to fill in.

[Kurovski]

82. Kick(nt)

[CoffeeCat]

90. The woman on board was a Command Sgt. Maj----

Marilyn L. Gabbard, of my home state---was a Commmand Sgt Maj.--a very rare and high rank for a woman.

Command Sgt Maj Gabbard joined the National Guard the year she graduated high school. She was in the guard for
27 years. She was the first woman in the Iowa National Guard's to attain that rank.

From Des Moines Register article:
Link to full article-- http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070124/NEWS/70124008/1001/SPORTS1403

(snip)
About 80 soldiers today attended an emotional news conference at Camp Dodge where Gabbard’s death was announced. Lt. Col. Gregory Hapgood, the Guard's public affairs officer, said Gabbard was known as a caring person. "In her particular case it was not so much as a case of rank but who she was," Hapgood said. "If you look around the room she has touched so many people in this organization."

Hapgood described Gabbard as someone that if "you gave a project to, you not only knew it would be done but that it would done right."

Gabbard had deployed from Iowa on Dec. 16 and assumed her duties in Iraq on Dec. 26. She had been expected to return home this summer.

Her husband, Edward, is a retired Iowa National Guard soldier. Other survivors include a daughter, a stepson and five step-daughters.