Where two or more students are gathered in God's name . . . there is controversy

[utopian]

<snip>
They formed a circle and held hands, praying for the welfare of their school, the nation and the president. Some prayed silently. Others spoke English or Russian.

Administrators at Heritage High School repeatedly asked the students not to pray in the busy commons area and offered them room where they could meet before school. The students refused, triggering a showdown that ended with 11 suspensions last Friday.

<snip>

Similar disputes have erupted across the country, but Clark County's clash over prayer in school has a unique element: Several of the suspended students are members of The Church of Truth, a congregation of predominantly Russian-speaking immigrants who settled in the U.S. for the opportunity to freely express their religious beliefs.

"We never expected things to happen like this," said senior pastor Sergey Kozlov, who said his church didn't organize the sessions yet supports the students. "For us, it's really important to express our beliefs fully, because that's the reason we came here."

<snip>

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1173419704121580.xml&coll=7

This is right out of the fundy playbook: instigate a confrontation and then cry religious persectution when it happens. The school offered them a place to worship while maintaining the separation of church and state. I don't see the problem.

[TechBear_Seattle]

1. The problem is...

These students can not publicly flaunt their religiosity (in direct violation of Jesus Himself) if they are off in a separate room, nor can they grab classmates and force their theology upon them if they are not in a busy area filled with students.

[trotsky]

2. Bingo!

Much like the Puritans seeking "religious freedom" and fleeing here - so they could be "free" to shove their religion on others.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. This kind of public demonstration of religion tends to inevitably

split children/students into groups that will not likely interact with each other either as groups or individuals in the hallways or cafeteria. Balkanization becomes the new standard: Jesus (a particular version of Jesus) versus the "the heathens".

[bryant69]

3. How exactly did what they were doing disturb others?

That's the part of the story I don't get. The story might have been written to leave that out, but without knowing the answer to that question, all this story does is give us a chance to repeat our own religious biases.

So my take is that it sounds like these people weren't doing anything that offensive, why does the school have to step in and stop it?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. I think the article explained it clearly enough

On the other side is Heritage High and Evergreen Public Schools, whose administrators say they were just trying to get students to class safely and on time, and evenhandedly apply rules about student gatherings.

I get the impression that the commons area is rather small and crowded, and this hand-holding circle was creating a bottleneck that made it difficult to get through the area. As a result, students were late getting to class. Also, it would seem that there is a rule requiring that regular student gatherings take place in class rooms outside of high traffic areas, and that the administration felt this rule applied the prayer group just as it applied to all other student groups.

Assuming I am correct, the request to move the group to a class room is completely reasonable, and the students involved were unreasonable to refuse.

[AllegroRondo]

11. the praying wasnt the problem, they were blocking a common area

and the school admin made it pretty clear that any group that did the same would be asked to move.

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. Exactly

But because the students were engaging in a religious observance, they feel compelled to whine and piss about being persecuted. :eyes:

[AllegroRondo]

16. thats pretty standard for them

"help, I'm being persecuted because I can't force others to watch me pray!"

[bryant69]

19. You get that impression based on your preexisting prejudices

I get a different impression based on mine.

Bryant

[Donnachaidh]

9. I guess you haven't visited any schools lately?

When they say *busy Common area* they mean BUSY. As in swarming with kids trying to get to other halls, etc. At times it can be like a beehive that has been kicked.

It sounds like this group picked out an area for grandstanding. The school OFFERED a quiet room for them, which was FAR more than they needed or were required to do. It was REFUSED.

Once they refused the room then they had absolutely NO grounds to say their rights are being messed with. AND there is this teeny tiny little law in our country that requires separation of Church and State.

The school was correct in suspending them. Let them look for new members elsewhere, like everyone else does.

[tandot]

12. They were forming a circle and holding hands in a busy area

and were offered a room so they don't block other students from getting to class. As the article says: The administrators "...were just trying to get students to class safely and on time, and evenhandedly apply rules about student gatherings.

If they feel that the only way to pray is to form a circle and hold hands, then they should do it where they will not obstruct other students from getting to class.

[China_cat]

17. You haven't seen these 'prayer circles' in action.

They hold hands in a circle...as wide a circle as possible...blocking traffic in and out of hallways and commons like the library, the cafeteria, the gym, etc. A few will reach out and grab people who are just trying to get through to elsewhere and incorporate them in the circle. No, they don't say anything, but they are still disruptive.

They were offered a place where they don't cause bottlenecks and where anyone who is interested can join in on their own. I'd say that's very generous of the school since, by law, they DON'T have to give that during school hours.

[Ian David]

5. If my church believes in public masturbation...

Does that mean I can masturbate on a school playground?

[bryant69]

6. So you find Prayer and Public Masterbation equally disruptive?

Bryant

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. Masturbation would be less disruptive

As masturbation tends to be much more of a solitary event than prayer. Unless Ian's church called for circle jerks, that is.

[Ian David]

10. The point is, that there is a time and place for everything...

and that one can enjoy themselves by prayer or masturbation, without having to force other to witness it.

They're not talking to god.

They're putting on a show for the public spectacle of it.

Jesus said (Mat 6:5-6):

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

More:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/6.html

[xchrom]

13. one is disruptive -- the other is eruptive.

[Tyler Durden]

15. PUBLIC prayer and masturbation.

Either one is pretty disruptive.

You know, I get tired of repeating this one:

Matt.6

1. <2> Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
2. <5> And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3. <16> Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

If these are the devout people they claim to be, time to catch up on their studies.

[bryant69]

18. Well if you are tired of repeating it, don't

But obviously there are counter indicatives in the scriptures as well.

13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:13-16

19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matthew 28:19-20

Bryant

[TechBear_Seattle]

20. Then you won't mind if we do the same to you?

Contantly evangelize you, point out where you are totally wrong, explain how you will be going to our version of Hell because you have not accepted the One True Faith?

Of course not. So please extend the same courtesy to others.

[bryant69]

21. If your belief system requires you to do so

Than I invite you to live up to what you believe in. I personally don't interpret these scriptures as requiring one to be an asshole, but clearly there's a place between living your religion as if it didn't matter and being an asshole.

Bryant

[TechBear_Seattle]

22. And if one's Scriptures required one to be an a-hole? Or a racist? Or a misogynist? Or a homophobe?

Applying your "live up to what you believe in" philosophy results in a very, very dangerous attitude. I have had too many run-ins with people who sincerely and deeply believe that they have a religious duty to exterminate every homosexual and atheist on the planet, because the Bible tells them to do this.

[bryant69]

23. Not just a dangerous attitude?

But a very very dangerous attitude?

At any rate, you don't have the right to harm other people in the pursuit of your religious beliefs. On the other hand I'm not sure praying in public really rises to that level.

Bryant

[hedgehog]

24. You guys are so busy jumping all over the public prayer issue

you're missing the larger point. The rule against gathering in a public space as opposed to off in a side classroom (that would have to be approved by the school administration, presumably) also would apply to a group of students gathered to protest the war in Iraq or run a voter registration drive.

[TechBear_Seattle]

25. Apples and orchids

I expect that a student organization that wanted to hold a protest or do a petition drive (who in high school is eligible to register to vote?) would be able to get special permission for a special event. That is a very different situation than having a regular meeting with several students standing in a circle in a busy public area while holding hands and creating an impediment to traffic.

That this was a prayer group is not what should be relevant, I agree with you on that. However, the group itself is making it an issue by claiming a religious right to create a disruption and claiming that the school's equal application of existing rules is persecution because of their religious beliefs.

[Kerrytravelers]

27. Good post, Hedgehog. This is the actual issue.

When you have a large number of teenagers, it is important to keep their common areas clear and without bottlenecks of human traffic. When things get crowded, people push. Pushing turns into angry fighting.

Also, the fire marshal have very specific regulations regarding the number of people in common areas and the need to move people through these areas in a timely fashion. I've been teaching for years. It is very common for fire personnel to randomly show up for surprise inspections. Violations of these rules cause a whole bunch of paperwork and meetings in an effort to comply with the fire marshall.

So, having these students meet someplace outside of the main commons area doesn't seem like religious persecution. It's complying with the fire codes and understanding the concept of orderly movement and safety.

When I was in high school, the prayer group that met every morning was asked to move to a larger area. They did so without whining. As they grew in numbers, they had to move a few times to accommodate their size. They understood the concept that the moving around was a reflection of their group increasing in size, not some pretend violation of their civil rights or some so-called religious persecution. Other groups that met in the commons areas were also moved around due to their increasing in size or to comply with the fire marshal's rules. Again, common sense made it clear why they were being moved.

The school offering the students isn't a violation of church and state. You can ask for a place to meet to have prayer. It simply can not be lead by an educator or an educator can not insist a student pray. There will, however, be an adult in the room for legal reasons. Teachers may also form a prayer group, but they can not insist that other staff members participate. The administration may also be apart of that prayer group, but favoritism can not be shown toward people who pray with the group versus people who don't join the group.




Edited for grammar.

[porphyrian]

26. When the US adopts Christianity as the national religion, they can do whatever they want...

...at a public school. Until then, they have no special rights to religious expression at a publicly-funded institution that promotes no religion above another (or above having no religion at all). They have the right to believe whatever they want, but they don't have the right to ignore the reality of the law and the Constitution.