The private war of women soldiers

[donsu]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/

Many female soldiers say they are sexually assaulted by their male comrades and can't trust the military to protect them. "The knife wasn't for the Iraqis," says one woman. "It was for the guys on my own side."
-----

As thousands of burned-out soldiers prepare to return to Iraq to fill President Bush's unwelcome call for at least 20,000 more troops, I can't help wondering what the women among those troops will have to face. And I don't mean only the hardships of war, the killing of civilians, the bombs and mortars, the heat and sleeplessness and fear.

I mean from their own comrades -- the men.

I have talked to more than 20 female veterans of the Iraq war in the past few months, interviewing them for up to 10 hours each for a book I am writing on the topic, and every one of them said the danger of rape by other soldiers is so widely recognized in Iraq that their officers routinely told them not to go to the latrines or showers without another woman for protection.

-snip-

"They call Camp Arifjan 'generator city' because it's so loud with generators that even if a woman screams she can't be heard," said Abbie Pickett, 24, a specialist with the 229th Combat Support Engineering Company who spent 15 months in Iraq from 2004-05. Yet, she points out, this is a base, where soldiers are supposed to be safe.

-snip-

Last year, Col. Janis Karpinski caused a stir by publicly reporting that in 2003, three female soldiers had died of dehydration in Iraq, which can get up to 126 degrees in the summer, because they refused to drink liquids late in the day. They were afraid of being raped by male soldiers if they walked to the latrines after dark. The Army has called her charges unsubstantiated, but Karpinski told me she sticks by them. (Karpinski has been a figure of controversy in the military ever since she was demoted from brigadier general for her role as commander of Abu Ghraib. As the highest-ranking official to lose her job over the torture scandal, she claims she was scapegoated, and has become an outspoken critic of the military's treatment of women. In turn, the Army has accused her of sour grapes.)

"I sat right there when the doctor briefing that information said these women had died in their cots," Karpinski told me. "I also heard the deputy commander tell him not to say anything about it because that would bring attention to the problem." The latrines were far away and unlit, she explained, and male soldiers were jumping women who went to them at night, dragging them into the Port-a-Johns, and raping or abusing them. "In that heat, if you don't hydrate for as many hours as you've been out on duty, day after day, you can die." She said the deaths were reported as non-hostile fatalities, with no further explanation.

-snip-

All the women I interviewed held dangerous jobs in Iraq. They drove trucks along bomb-ridden roads, acted as gunners atop tanks and unarmored vehicles, raided houses, guarded prisoners, rescued the wounded in the midst of battle, and searched Iraqis at checkpoints. Some watched their best friends die, some were wounded, all saw the death and mutilation of Iraqi children and citizens.

Yet, despite the equal risks women are taking, they are still being treated as inferior soldiers and sex toys by many of their male colleagues. As Pickett told me, "It's like sending three women to live in a frat house."

-snip-

"There are only three kinds of female the men let you be in the military: a bitch, a ho or a dyke," said Montoya, the soldier who carried a knife for protection. "This guy out there, he told me he thinks the military sends women over to give the guys eye candy to keep them sane. He said in Vietnam they had prostitutes to keep them from going crazy, but they don't have those in Iraq. So they have women soldiers instead."
-snip-
---------------------------------


men's war against women marches on

mothers tell your daughters not to go into the military

and men have the nerve to tell us they love us

[bigluckyfeet]

1. This is Beyond Sad

If they catch a soldier raping someone,take his ass out and shoot him.

[EFerrari]

24. It's lethal. Women had died on duty in Iraq because they stopped

drinking liquids in the afternoon so they wouldn't have to go to the latrine in the dark.

[kerstin]

2. This is outrageous.

This should be getting as much attention as the Walter Reed scandal.

Yes I really want to support male troops regarding female troops as "bitches, ho's and dykes."

Whatever it takes, it must be stopped. Now.

[mongo]

3. K & R

off to the greatest page for this one!

There really needs to be some congresional oversight into this problem in the military.

[cwydro]

4. Kick

this is awful and what's sad is I believe it.

[lovuian]

5. I made a video about Women Freedom Fighters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uECY6xDw1Lw

It starts out with Joan of Arc who eventually was raped and burned as a witch
but I have showed the faces of the Woman Freedom Fighters of America who are heroes
We have lost some very beautiful children

my heart breaks for their parents

Like Joan of Arc their courage should be awe inspiring

[cwydro]

6. Amazing not more comments...

There're more comments on someone being offended by a pizza ad. Pathetic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Well yuo know pizza

people are conditioned, I now believe, to react only to adds, not real stories

[cwydro]

10. Perhaps you're right...

people are more outraged about ads and the names that others call that idiot Coulter than they are about this.

[MedleyMisty]

68. The names that people call Coulter are connected

Like I've said before, I've seen someone say they wanted to rape Coulter, and I've seen her called a c*nt and a whore and a bitch and comments made about her looks and what she would be like as a lay.

Using words and phrases and ideas derogatory to all females to insult her is part of the attitude that leads to things like this. After all, hey, these women are c*nts who deserve to be raped, right?

Language is important. It shapes ideas and attitudes, which in turn shape actions.

[Morgana LaFey]

71. Yes, indeed. Thank you for saying it.

There is NO difference between what is happening to these women and the woman-hating culture we all live in, except in degree.

The military is an especially anti-woman institution. The troops are typically compared to and called women (using whatever slang words occur to the drill sergents or other disciplinarians) -- as an insult, to humiliate them and try to get them to perform. You can't build an institution which has ANY "respect for women" from there. You just can't. Their own training methods reinforce women's second-class status, their worthlessness, their lack of humanity, and ultimately their rapability.

Same here at DU. You can't go from calling Ann Coulter horrible gender slurs to pretending you have any respect for women. It's just not possible, doesn't compute.

[mass.man]

104. Ann Coulter

As much as I dislike her, your comments mirrored my own views. ALL women deserve to be treated with respect, not just those that we agree with. Every woman is someone's daughter, many are someone's sister, and many are someone's mother.

[Kerrytravelers]

105. Aw. Our little mass.man has had a meltdown.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x380696#383689


And this is one post that actually made sense. Perhaps DU did rub off on our little winger in a positive way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Hmm time to send this to my congress critters

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

11. Thank you for posting that. That is horrific.

I would have never expected the military that sucks so much of my tax money to mistreat its female soldiers in this manner.

It's shameful. Something really needs to be done about it.

[HardRocker05]

12. 'bitch, ho, or dyke;' that sounds like the typical macho right wing attitude to any woman who

dares not to stay 'in her place.'

[knitter4democracy]

36. I thought the same thing.

Of course, I'm usually called the first one on the list. ;)

[blondie58]

89. yeah, but thats okay

You know what bitch means, don't you?


Babe In Total Control of Herself

[knitter4democracy]

95. Amen to that.

:)

[HeeBGBz]

65. It was that way when I was in the Army

Unpleasantness.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

98. I remember it well. I had to stay hyervigilant about any "private" conversation even

while doing my job. I had one particularly heinous incident occur and, fortunately, the First Sergeant of our company believed my story over his. However, he had minimal disciplinary action. I was moved out of his chain of command, which was fine with me at the time.

Then, he sexually assaulted an officer's wife and whoosh, gone in sixty seconds.

Another time, I had one of our company's NCO's use a master key to come into my barracks room in the middle of the night, while I was asleep.

When I woke up and saw him there standing over my bed staring at me, I began screaming and carrying on.

He was actually shocked that I might be offended at his overtures.

He plead innocence to other people he thought the room was empty and he was going to sleep there since he'd worked so late and didn't feel like making the trek to his housing unit.


Sheesh, the more things change... MKJ

[wicket]

13. K & R

:kick:

[bobbolink]

14. Women soldiers having PTSD at much higher rates than men. My guess is this is why.

Men aren't so worried about being raped.

What a world.

Yet, sexism is still allowed on DU, and thought to be funny by many.

[Skittles]

90. and what's dismaying, bobbolink

the sexist DUers for the most part are completely unable to recognize their own sexism - I tell you, on a progressive board that disturbs me beyond belief

[donsu]

99. you are right - men worry about being killed, injured/maimed but

women soldiers have to add sexual abuse and rape to the list. abuse and rape from their own comrads.

[EFerrari]

15. Amy Goodman did a well done report on this topic this week.

Thursday, March 8th, 2007
The Private War of Women Soldiers: Female Vet, Soldier Speak Out on Rising Sexual Assault Within US Military


On International Women’s Day, we look at the ongoing global struggle for gender equality and equal rights within the US military. Specialist Mickiela Montoya came face to face with the dangers of rape by her male comrades when she was deployed to Iraq with the National Guard. Eli Painted Crow served in the Army for 22 years including time in Iraq in 2004, facing challenges both as a woman and a Native American. And Columbia professor Helen Benedict is author of a forthcoming book about women veterans of the Iraq war.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/08/1443232

:thumbsup:

[cwydro]

39. thanks for that link.

[Ron Green]

16. I figure that if men who rape and abuse are in the minority, there ought to be

a willing cadre of responsible male soldiers who will escort females when they need to go some distance.

Or perhaps these abusers are not the minority.

[EFerrari]

23. I never thought of that.

:(

[alarimer]

45. You would think that would work

But I think those guys that do not participate are afraid of going against the grain so they stay silent and do not do anything. I have seen that happen in offices where there was a lot of harassment- no one is willing to stand up for the victim in fear of losing their jobs and being labeled a troublemaker.

Interesting point one of the letter writers made- this only happens in the US military. Israel, for example, requires females to serve as well and they have no trouble with rape and harassment. I can only speculate as to why that might be. Maybe they are just tougher on offenders.

Unfortunately, the US is still a culture where it is okay to treat women as objects. And I am guessing that there is a "good old boy" mentality at play in the military because a lot of the people in it come from small towns where that sort of attitude still plays.

[Ron Green]

48. This makes me think a conscripted military would be more reasonable.

If there is such a culture of cowardice and dishonor among the male soldiers in Iraq, does this reflect accurately on the American culture in general? Although, as you point out, it's sometimes okay to treat women as objects, there are MANY other places in the world where it's more so.

My feeling is that the all-volunteer military attracts lots of males who haven't figured out what being a man is really about, but think that going to war will make it so. I can't imagine how someone brave enough to go into battle is such a coward that he won't stand up for a woman in danger.

[alarimer]

50. I agree that some other countries are certainly worse

But we are the ones claiming to be a "shining beacon" or example for other countries yet our own house is far from in order.

Maybe conscription would be better- maybe that's why Israel does not have this problem. Everyone is there for 2 years or whatever.
But you could be right about who joins the military. I have seen ads touting the various branches of the military as a way for people to "grow up". And maybe that is so for most.

Of course the higher-ups are not taking this situation seriously either. We don't even have a handle on how widespread this problem is.

[TahitiNut]

17. Tailhook redux.

I don't for a second believe this is common throughout the military, or even any branch of the military. To the degree this happens in some units, it's a symptom of appallingly unqualified leadership and a breakdown of the command structure. Rape of female service personnel can bring the death penalty in the military. It's regarded even more seriously by sane military people than it is in the general public, imho.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xithras]

22. Coerced sex is far more common than actual rape.

Spent a year and a half in Kuwait, in a hospital unit, and some of her stories were heartbreaking. Many women over there, understanding that they will be raped otherwise, simply submit to sex willingly. Lots of STD's flying around because of that. She herself had sex with several guys willingly because it had been made clear that it was expected of her. She knew that turning them down would not only put her at risk for a forcible rape, but that it would definitely exclude her from the social group of the soldiers she was supposed to be working with. She would be an outcast, thousands of miles from her home and friends. So she screwed them just to be one of the "group". Because it was expected of her.

But forcible rapes are still very common. Your statement only holds true if the soldiers actually fear prosecution, which many don't. When you're in the field or in a remote camp, there isn't a hospital unit around to do a rape kit. By the time a raped woman can make it to see a doctor, the physical evidence of the assault is almost always gone. This makes it a her word against his thing, and you can bet that his friends aren't going to support the accusation against him...especially if they were the ones holding the shower door shut, or keeping a lookout.

Military prosecutions work quite a bit differently than civilian prosecutions. If there isn't physical evidence that an assault took place, or witnesses willing to testify to that fact, it's almost impossible to secure any kind of conviction. The soldiers know that, and they don't fear prosecution as a result.

[Marnieworld]

38. mmm

I always thought coerced sex is rape. If you are being threatened with a beating it is just as much a rape as one with the beating. No consent with a threat. I can't imagine anyone who submitted to "coercion" would not feel raped just not a victim of a beating as well. The whole culture of lie back and enjoy it or else is as evil as anything else. Just rape with a different style.

[TahitiNut]

47. Indeed. I sure don't see any distinction either.

Coerced = rape, imho. :shrug:

[Xithras]

51. It's not usually that direct

Perhaps I mis-stated. It's not like these guys are coming up and saying, "Hey, have sex with me or I'm going to rape you". It's just a known thing. Women who are promiscuous don't get raped, because the guys having sex with them tend to get a little protective. A woman who sleeps around knows that she's part of the group, and therefore has the protection of the group.

A woman who refuses to be promiscuous basically becomes an outsider. As an outsider, she's more likely to get raped. It's like they're marked socially, and the guys who perpetrate the rapes know that they can get away with assaulting them.

So the choice is "Have sex with all the people I work with regularly to gain their protection", or "Reject the advances of those who might otherwise protect me, and put myself at risk for rape from a stranger".

In many ways, it's a lot like prison. If you aren't strong enough to defend yourself, you voluntarily submit yourself to one group in the hope that they'll protect you from the rest.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

Yikes. I think I had a slightly different experience. The military is like so many other

large, bureaucratic, unwieldy organizations. Most, whether military or civilian, embrace male cultural mores. A very few, for instance in some health care venues or perhaps IT, have a more feminist focused culture. One factor of a defined culture resides in the sheer number of men vs. women in the institution and in influential positions.

The military takes the "warrior" aspect of male culture and leverages it in both its positive and negative facets. My favorite part of male culture is the fostering of esprit de corps, an emotionally elevating experience at which men excel.

There are many very decent people in the military. And, one cannot ignore the fact that the troops are composed of young men and women, who are in their physical prime. Add the intensity of emotion that everyone is experiencing and you have plenty of men and women consensually having sex, as well the unsavory and ugly bartering you describe.

Sexuality is a strong drive, for both genders and particularly overwhelming in this combination of situations. And, the men greatly outnumber the women. So, any woman going into that situation should be cognizant of who the good guys are and try to focus on the doing the best in the situation at hand. Report everything, even it seems to disappear down a hole.

The military is a documentation driven institution and filing formal reports will get attention. Ask for copies of the report,and keep your own separate documentation, even if it's hand written notes. A small notebook and a pen at all times, stuck in the pocket of your BDU's.

I do wonder if the very young, at times naive, women who are joining right now are truly understanding the implication of becoming a female soldier or Marine. An enlisted woman in the military must always be observant and willing to be outspoken, when the situation calls for it.

I worry that fear may make women in the combat theater today succumb to the pressure you describe. Any scummy guy who takes advantage of a genuinely fearful woman is, well, scummy. They need the light shining on their cowardly asses. Again, the good guys don't want this crap happening, either.

For some reason, your phrase "a woman who refuses to be promiscuous" caught my attention. I think that word has very interesting implications, since it suggests a standard to define "too many" sexual partners. Is the standard 2 or 200? :shrug: MKJ

[Ripley]

27. Bullshit.

Why do you believe it is necessary to discount the women coming forward with their personal experiences as liars? Your assertion that you don't believe this is common doesn't hold true with the statistics from women in the military.

After reading this shit about what is going on in Iraq and has been going on at many of the Academies and training facilities, how can you simply dismiss it?

This dismissal of "widespread" harassment and assault of females in the military is part of the problem.

Many women don't report because of the threats of violence or harm to their career, just as it is in the civilian world.

[TahitiNut]

33. If it goes on in only ONE unit, it's appalling and merits prosecutions.

Why do you feel it necessary to mischaracterize my position? Why do you feel it necessary to characterize it as ubiquitous? I've been a cadet in a service academy and an enlisted man in the Army in Viet Nam both. I base my understanding on a combination of first-hand experience in the military as well as reputable reports.

[Ripley]

37. Again.

It's not about YOU and your experiences years ago.

This is about WOMEN ASSAULTED. And women assaulted TODAY.

The New Army or the New Navy or whatever branch is still the same old shit for women trying to go to work without being attacked physically by their "brothers."

[candidate]

54. "Why do you feel it necessary to mischaracterize my position?"

It's a common tactic in these parts.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donsu]

101. because you look at the situation from a male point of view

which is not the female's point of view.

(anthropology has proven that the male point of view is different from the female when studying animals, etc. research is constantly being updated as women scientist restudy and see things from a different perspective.)

[Ripley]

35. Tell me

Rape of female service personnel can bring the death penalty in the military.

Give me one case of someone being brought forward on death penalty charges for rape in the military.

Why is it a common theme that men say things like "it's not common" or "just a few bad apples" when the statistics prove otherwise?

Sounds like Bushspeak.

The abuse of female military personnel is NOT taken seriously by the leadership or this problem would not be ongoing, eh? And gee, these things occurred under Clinton as well, so the "blame Bush" card doesn't work so well.

[TahitiNut]

42. So, if it's not common, it's not a problem, huh?

It seems to me that people who're so eager to smear MILLIONS of service personnel worldwide as either rapists or complicit in rape have that as a higher priority than actually prosecuting cases of rape. It seems to me that the "they're everywhere! they're everywhere!" Chicken Littles do far more to obfuscate and dilute this appalling crime than serve to address it wherever it occurs.

The desire to engage in vigilantism seems indicated by the smear: "Sounds like Bushspeak."

Attacking those who don't engage in the "approved hysteria" is just another way to distract from the issue and address it.

To answer your (bullshit) question, on April 13, 1961, U.S. Army Private John A. Bennett was hanged after being convicted of rape and attempted murder.

Got it? :eyes:

I'm a steadfast opponent of the death penalty. At the same time, I would've most likely 'offed' another soldier I saw raping anyone, Vietnamese or military. Of the guys I knew, I was certainly NOT unusual in that regard.

[Ripley]

52. And here we go again..

1. I did not smear MILLIONS of service personnel.
(and your statement about that sounds eerily similar to those typical defense lawyers who are so eager to SMEAR MILLIONS OF WOMEN who have been raped)

2. Vigilantism you say? because I used the term "Bushspeak" whereas most folks would understand the similarity to the deniers of Abu Graib torturer as "just a few bad apples."

3. Where did I attack you?

4. "approved hysteria" has never been used against females. :eyes:

5. One man was hanged. Do you believe only one woman or man has been raped in a similar fashion that would result in the same execution?

[TahitiNut]

59. "And here we go again." ... you seem to be channeling Ronald Reagan

Does that work for you? Do you persuade a lot of people with that?

(1) You claim you're not smearing millions with a broad brush but your own posts contradict you. You say "The New Army or the New Navy or whatever branch is still the same old shit for women trying to go to work without being attacked physically by their 'brothers'" and comprehensively smear two entire branches of the service. In another post you list "Iraq," the "Academies" (plural, and there are only four of them), and training facilities (through which EVERY person in the military passes). So, your denial is contradicted by your own posts. Sounds like a "Libby memory moment" to me.

(2) So, you liken posts to "Bushspeak" and "deniers of Abu Graib torturer" and then don't see how the shoe of 'vigilantism' fits? Strange, that. Do you make a habit of alleging that anyone with whom you detect disagreement is sounding like Bush or torture-enablers or rapists? Again, does that tactic work for you? Do you persuade many people?

(3) It's fairly clear that you're being knowingly offensive in comparing my posts to Bushspeak or an apologist for torture. Self-righteous zeal often takes such license, it seems. How does that work for you? Persuade many folks?

(4) Yep ... it's a black and white world, filled solely with innocent female victims and evil male villains. :eyes:

(5) You demanded "Give me one case of someone being brought forward on death penalty charges for rape in the military." Now you kvetch when I did. It seems that 'satisfaction' of your demands are just never enough. Tough.

:shrug:

[Ripley]

61. So, you use tricks like "Ronald Reagan"

to get attention.

Perhaps people like You have some serious problems if you do not understand that the WOMEN IN THE MILITARY are being abused..

[TahitiNut]

82. When the foo shits, wear it.

"There you go again," said by Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Carter during their 1980 presidential debate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_catch_phrases

[Donald Ian Rankin]

63. What statistics?

What reliable data on rape or sexual abuse in the military is there, if any?

[Gormy Cuss]

58. Did you see this paragraph in the Salon article?

I've bolded the cited percentages, now I'm off to find the actual surveys to try to assess the strength of each but the numbers in the first two are quite astonishing.

Rape, sexual assault and harassment are nothing new to the military. They were a serious problem for the Women's Army Corps in Vietnam, and the rapes and sexual hounding of Navy women at Tailhook in 1991 and of Army women at Aberdeen in 1996 became national news. A 2003 survey of female veterans from Vietnam through the first Gulf War found that 30 percent said they were raped in the military. A 2004 study of veterans from Vietnam and all the wars since, who were seeking help for post-traumatic stress disorder, found that 71 percent of the women said they were sexually assaulted or raped while in the military. And in a third study, conducted in 1992-93 with female veterans of the Gulf War and earlier wars, 90 percent said they had been sexually harassed in the military, which means anything from being pressured for sex to being relentlessly teased and stared at.

[TahitiNut]

60. "who were seeking help for post-traumatic stress disorder"

When citing percentages, it's important to recognize the denominator.

I repeat ...
If it goes on in only ONE unit, it's appalling and merits prosecutions.

As I've said in many discussions of the military, it's always gong to be a question of the chain of command and command authority! The military is an exceedingly authoritarian culture. As I said during the original expose of the abu Ghraib atrocities, there's no fucking way that multiple personnel in multiple units do such things without a perceived approval from the common command authority. No way. The military is not a culture in which people "do their own thing."

At the same time, my own personal experience tells me that there are plenty of military people who'd shoot someone caught raping a female in the military. I have never known anyone personally who'd tolerate it. Not at all. If anything, the 'extreme' was in taking a protective stance, not a predatory stance. That there are cess pools in the military where people will do such things is undeniable. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to also know that the rot goes to the head - whomever is commanding that unit.

Since my experience is predominantly based on the days when we had 2/3rds draftees in the Army and the "volunteer military" has actually created a more widespread rot, then that's even a greater argument in favor of Universal National Service ... until such 'service' is made unnecessary altogether.

[Gormy Cuss]

62. Yes, that is a limitation to the second cited stat. The first , 30% of female vets reporting rape,

came from a cross-sectional survey of female vets, using a stratified sample and lead by a PhD researcher based at the Iowa City VA hospital. The study was published in a peer reviewed journal, Obstetrics & Gynecology. In this study, it's very clear that the problem was not isolated to a single unit or theater.

While looking for this citation I read several articles in scientific publications alluding to other studies of American female vets reporting high rates of sexual assault too, but it would take me several days to track down and digest them all.

Partial citation and abstract:

Health-Related Consequences of Physical and Sexual Violence: Women in the Military
ANNE G. SADLER, RN, PhD, BRENDA M. BOOTH, PhD, DEANNA NIELSON, PhD and BRADLEY N. DOEBBELING, MD, MSc

Sadler is a researcher based at The Iowa City Veterans’ Affairs Medical Center, Iowa City, Iowa

Methods: We did a cross-sectional telephone survey of a national sample of 558 women veterans who served in Vietnam and subsequent eras of military service. A stratified survey design selected subjects according to era of service and location. The interview included socioeconomic information, lifetime violence history, the Women’s Military Environment Survey to assess women’s military experiences, and the Medical Outcomes Study Short Form-36 to assess health-related quality of life.

Results: Five hundred thirty-seven women completed the interview. Half (48%) experienced violence during military service, including rape (30%), physical assault (35%), or both (16%).

I haven't located the other two citations yet.

[TahitiNut]

69. AFAIK, that's not materially different from the statistics on sexual assault for the whole country.

When we consider the demographically more distilled nature of military personnel (age, fitness, education, etc.), it seems that the military reflects the overall problem of sexual abuse in the entire population. Thus, as I have tired to make clear, the problem is one of sexual abuse ... NOT the military per se. I would PERSONALLY want to see a materially lesser degree of such instances in the military. Given the extremely authoritarian nature of the military culture, it seems to me that command authority could reasonably achieve this.

[Gormy Cuss]

75. Given the authoritarian nature of the military, I would expect lower incidence of assault

than one would find in a demographically matched cohort of civilians. Again, there are many citations on this issue out there for someone with the time and inclination to do a full literature review. The ones that I've found today never suggest that the military rates are better than in the civilian population and some suggest it is far worse specifically because of the higher concentration of a dynamic associated with sexual assault in the civilian population, namely young women in male-dominated environments with insufficient management control (in the case of the military, that means unsupportive or poor leadership.)

One small PTSD study, of limited value, found a higher rate of PTSD among women who had experienced sexual abuse while in the military -- higher than those who experienced child sexual abuse.

Again, partial citation and abstract:

Sexual Assault in Women Veterans: An Examination of PTSD Risk, Health Care Utilization, and Cost of Care
Alina Surís, PhD, Lisa Lind, PhD, T. Michael Kashner, JD PhD, MPH, Patricia D. Borman, PhD and Frederick Petty, PhD MD

From the Department of Veterans Affairs (A.S., L.L., T.M.K.), Research Service, North Texas Health Care System, Dallas, Texas; the Department of Psychiatry (A.S., T.M.K., P.D.B.), University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas, Texas; the Department of Psychiatry (F.P.), Creighton University, Omaha, Nebraska; and the Nebraska/Western Iowa Health Care System (F.P.), Omaha, Nebraska.

OBJECTIVE: This study examines the differential impact of military, civilian adult, and childhood sexual assault on the likelihood of developing posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). It also examines the relationship of military sexual assault (MSA) to service utilization and health care costs among women who access services through Veterans Affairs (VA).

METHODS: A convenience sample of 270 veteran women receiving medical and/or mental health treatment at the VA North Texas Healthcare System participated in the study. Participants were interviewed using the Clinician Administered PTSD Scale (CAPS) and categorized into a sexual assault group using the Interview of Sexual Experiences (ISE). A chart review was also conducted to determine the frequency of diagnoses among the women. Data regarding health care utilization was obtained from self-report using the Utilization and Cost Patient Questionnaire (UAC-PQ) and VA administrative records.

RESULTS: Compared with those without a history of sexual assault, women veterans were 9 times more likely to have PTSD if they had a history of MSA, 7 times more likely if they had childhood sexual assault (CSA) histories, and 5 times more likely if they had civilian sexual assault histories. An investigation of medical charts revealed that PTSD is diagnosed more often for women with a history of MSA than CSA. CSA was associated with a significant increase in health care utilization and cost for services, but there was no related increase in use or cost associated with MSA.

CONCLUSION: Women veterans have differential rates of PTSD due to sexual assault, with higher rates found among those assaulted while on active duty. Although women with MSA are more likely to have PTSD, results suggest that they are receiving fewer health care services.

...
Abbreviations: PTSD = posttraumatic stress disorder;; MSA = military sexual assault;; CSA = civilian sexual assault;; ChSA = childhood sexual assault;; VA = Veterans Affairs;; UAC-PQ = Utilization and Cost Patient Questionnaire;; ISE = Interview of Sexual Experiences;; CAPS = Clinician Administered PTSD Scale;; NSA = no sexual assault;; SD = standard deviation;; ER = emergency room;; SE = standard error.

[TahitiNut]

79. It cuts both ways, I think.

While the command orientation in the military might afford an "opportunity" to achieve a far lower rate of sexual assault (re: integration of the military in the 50s), the coincident self-selection of an "all volunteer" military would also incline the culture toward those favoring force and power which are, after all, the underlying drivers for rape and sexual assault. At the same time, some things seem to not have changed ... and that is that it's still regarded as 'weak' to seek assistance for PTSD and other psychological issues.

I tend to regard the military as our society's "symptom bearers" - the people we can comfortably point to when patting ourselves on the back for a variety of self-anointed superiorities. A good "symptom bearer" is hard to deny one's self.

[Morgana LaFey]

73. C'mon, TN -- your "personal experience in the military"

goes back to the 1960s. It's NOT that relevent to today.

You've certainly gotten yourself worked up about this, and I'm at a loss as to why. I've seen plenty of reports that rape is quite widespread in Iraq (and Kuwait and the theater in general). We have MANY more women in the services than we did during 'Nam. We still have training that emphasizes how superior men are to women (when trainers compare men unfavorably to women when they're being yelled at) -- that's just not a good way to build an institution where women are respected.

I don't understand why you seem to refuse to believe that the problem is widespread.

And as for your hanging -- that was 1961. Got anything more recent? I've LOVE to see some serious repercussions for rapists in the military, but again -- the reports have been mostly that the command structures turn a blind eye or EVEN go after women who dare report things like that or sexual harrassment.


This may be of interest to you: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1950669


Rape stats -- I just did a brief survey and they're hard to find in this form, but I did find at least 1 site that said "1 in 6" women are raped i her lifetime, which is something like 16%. I think it was one of these two links: http://www.actabuse.com/SAstatistics.html
http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/ohe/library/violence/statistics.htm

[TahitiNut]

76. Obviously the absence of ANY experience in the military ...

... is far superior to my sadly out-dated experience. Mea culpa. :eyes:

It's really strange how *I* become the subject of such posts rather than the issue of rape itself. Strangely, there are some who want to make it a military issue, instead of the issue of rape and sexual abuse itself, even though the rate of sexual abuse in the military seems fairly close to that in the population itself.

But that's how such 'discussions' go ... find something - ANYTHING - as an excuse to shoot at a closer target (like any DUer will do) instead of actually focusing on the atrocity of human objectification. Yes. That's exactly what it is - treating human beings as a means to an end (whether than 'end' be a perversion of power or a perversion of greed) rather than an end in themselves. After all, when we get ourselves into high dudgeon and have the END of satisfying blood lust, we can just wallow in that same objectification and find a handy scapegoat. Good going.

:eyes:

It seems that the moral virus of treating human beings as commodities (e.g. "people like you") is as rampant on DU as anywhere.

[Morgana LaFey]

77. I think you're quite mistaken that rape in the military equals

rape in the larger public. And I'm still puzzled why you must defend the military like that.

Frankly, as I tried to point out, such a stand doesn't even make any common sense. You cannot have an institution which institutionally disrespects women and yet have an institution which respects women. :shrug:

but whatever.

[Morgana LaFey]

78. and being an Amry wife for umpty-ump years doesn't count, I take it

I see.

Do you feel the same disrespect for mothers of current active duty personnel, and wives of current active duty personnel -- that they too couldn't possibly know anything about anything?

[TahitiNut]

81. Project and dissociate much?

You dismiss and demean me and my direct experience as any basis for a valid perspective and then claim that I'm showing "disrespect"??? (Unfuckingreal!)

[Morgana LaFey]

83. Excellent avoidance tactic

:thumbsup:

[Xithras]

18. Quis Custodiet Custodes Ipsos

Who watches the watchers?

There is one basic fact about the military that many people don't seem to get. A lot of people are saying that the military should protect women from these soldiers, but the reality is that the "protectors" in the military are just other soldiers. Even MP's are just other enlisted soldiers who pulled a shit duty assignment. In the military, you don't have some overrching defensive structure to protect the soldiers, because the soldiers ARE the protectors. They protect each other, and when they don't crap like this happens.

So what do you do to protect a female soldier from being harassed by other soldiers, when the only people available to protect her are more soldiers? Keep in mind that because these are closed communities, those "more soldiers" are usually frends or acquaintences of the soldiers doing the harassing in the first place. How do you prosecute someone for harassing a woman, when 20 of his buddies are all willing to lie and claim that she either wanted it or that it never happened? It's an impossible situation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. And this is not helped by a command structure

that is hiding its head in the sand.

Karpinsky gets it, but the overstretched military will not do a thing, if they can avoid it

And if a soldier should ahem, defend herself to the point of killing the perpetrator, due to the nature of the failure of leadership... I am willing to bet that this little fact, aka sexual assault, will be left out of the general court martial if they can help it

[cwydro]

21. Remember Tailhook?

They will ignore this until the media gets involved. IF the media gets involved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Bingo

[Xithras]

28. Tailhook had photos and video.

Tailhook also involved military people harassing civilians. If Tailhook had occurred on-base, without civilians, and if no photos or video of the event existed, you and I would have never heard about it.

Tailhook make the headlines because the soldiers made the mistake of assaulting a number of civilian women who DID have recourse. They were able to call the police and do something about it, and they had actual evidence that it happened. You may recall that the first response to this getting out was a flat out denial by all of the military people involved. They didn't admit a thing until the photos and video began to surface.

Women in the military have no such recourse. They can't call the police (what police would they call at a field base), and they usually have no evidence to back up their accusations anyway.

[cwydro]

30. You are right.

[walldude]

25. Man, like soldiers don't have enough shit to deal with

"This guy out there, he told me he thinks the military sends women over to give the guys eye candy to keep them sane. He said in Vietnam they had prostitutes to keep them from going crazy, but they don't have those in Iraq. So they have women soldiers instead."

You know sometimes when I read some of these male bashing threads that occasionally pop up I get a little frustrated, then I read shit like this and think damn, men really are pigs.

[dmost]

64. I call bull crap

I have served 2 tours in Iraq. One tour with zero females in my unit, and one with only 2. At no time were there any harassment that I know of, and I would have known. So don't lump all Soldiers into this all military are rapist fantasy. On my last tour we did have an incident in our higher headquarters, which was found to be false. A female was separated from her boyfriend so she falsified a report on a rape. That being said there are rapes in the Army, just like there are rapes in the civilian world, because some people are sick. If any of my Soldiers were found quilt of rape I would hope they were given the max punishment because if they wernt I would make sure they would pay.

[HeeBGBz]

67. I was in the military too and it happens

Just because your unit didn't have problems doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Welcome to DU.

[LostinVA]

92. Mi semi-FReeper BIL was a Chief Warrant in the Army for 12+ years

He got out on a medical when he broke his back during a night jump.

He would disagree with you. He has horrific stories of stuff that happened and got hushed up. He himself did everything he could to help and to protect female and gay soldiers under his command. And, regardless of his semi-Freeper tendencies, I wish more people in the military were like him.

[Bigmack]

29. I never served with women....

at all. I only saw a few WMs (Women Marines), so maybe I'm just naive, but I think attempting the rape of a woman soldier or Marine could get downright dangerous. Lotta weapons around.

I know if I went to the head in a dark and dangerous place, I'd carry two handguns.... one to shoot the sumbitch, and one to plant on him.

The non-forceable stuff some posters have written really bothers me, though. I was in a lot of shit with a lot of guys, and nobody ever expected me to blow them just to be one of the guys. Sounds like some of the guys are using blackmail to get over on somebody. Helluva thing to do to a buddy in a combat situation, and bad for unit cohesion as well.

[Ron Green]

31. So is this behavior common or not?

If it's common, we've got a dishonorable rank-and-file that doesn't deserve support.
If it's rare, the majority of honorable soldiers should put a stop to it.

Which is it?

[Marnieworld]

32. I couldn't finish this. It's too sickening and sad.

I'm not surprised though. It's just another way the * admin is "supporting the troops".

:cry: :grr:

[cwydro]

34. Yeah,

what was it Rummy said? "You go to war with the army you have..."

[gaspee]

40. Salon letters missing?

I'm trying to read the letters about the article on Salon and they aren't there. I wonder why? It makes me think that most of the letters are not exactly supportive of the women soldiers, but I'm feeling cynical today, so it's most ikely a technical glitch.

[lukasahero]

41. Your cynicism is valid

First letter:

"In the interest of equality why aren't women and women ONLY fighting the next 225 years of wars while the men stay home and pine for their brave spouses? Seems awfully sexist and hypocritical of women and feminists to expect otherwise."

Some other highlights:

"Really? I'm confused. Aren't these women SOLDIERS? Aren't they trained to DEFEND themselves? Don't they carry GUNS? If they can't fend off one of their own,in camp, they shouldn't be there at all."

"FIGHTIN IS NOT FOR BITCHES
Get the fuck out of the military already. Next thing you know they'll be complaining that they aren't getting the right type of moisturizer on the front line! Having chicks serve is an awful idea for the following reasons: Women are weaker, slower, and dumber than men. Emotionally, women are train wrecks for a week out of every month-MEDIC WE'VE GOT A BLEEDER! Add this weak ass sexual harrasment crap and one can only conclude that women are a HUGE LIABILITY!

Listen up ladies, war is hell!

HOOOHAAA"

On the bright side, I like Pit Viper:

"I'm confused
I'm confused. Aren't these men SOLDIERS? Aren't they trained to BEHAVE themselves? Don't they support their COMRADES IN ARMS? If they can't support one of their own,in camp, they shouldn't be there at all.

-- Pit Viper"

[cwydro]

43. Oh wow,

sounds like someone who was posting here awhile ago...

Sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Yep

but those attitudes are far more widesrpead than we think

[cwydro]

46. yes I know,

I was in the military some years ago and the saying then was that a woman was either a whore, a dyke, or "looking for a husband". Guess it hasn't changed much. Sigh.

[alarimer]

49. Some of the early ones I read were disgusting

Something is seriously wrong with this country. It is still okay to treat women like shit. And women sometimes don't call these men on their assholery. They laugh it off, like it's just silliness. I have heard about so much sexual harassment in the workplace, even with laws on the books against it. (Some) men still think a dirty joke is perfectly okay. "Oh, honey, don't you look pretty" etc. And whatever punishment they may get is just a slap on the wrist. If they could get away with rape in the workplace, some of them would. The military is a whole different ball game of course. They are isolated, far from home, most of them are very young and presumably don't really know better and it is a "macho" culture, all of which contributes to the problem. And of course sexual assault is much more serious than simple harassment.

[gatorboy]

53. What's scary is that the women don't seem to feel safe around ANY males.

Aren't there even a few good apples enlisted to drive the bad ones away?

[noamnety]

57. There is peer pressure on the men to be macho

That's what the culture is built on. That, and putting your guys above all else - the loyalty is strong enough that injured soldiers will want to return - not because they believe in the mission, but because they have such a strong bond with the other guys that they want to be there with them. So they have a culture that is based on covering for each other, sometimes covering up for each other. If one guy can't trust the guy next to him completely, there are going to be problems on the mission.

Bonding in our society is often based on common experiences, common culture, common characteristics. Sometimes we call it nepotism, when you favor your family, even in unethical situations. Racial nepotism is why the US troops will assign ethnic names to their enemies, to identify them as "other" and put the focus on what characteristics the troops share with each other. If an Iraqi civilian and an American civilian are lying injured in the street, and they can only save one, you can bet they'll save the American. Gender nepotism is the tendency to stick to your own gender, the good ole boyz network. And there's no place that all works in harmony and with devastating effects more than the military.

[alarimer]

74. I would think there would be

Unless they are afraid of being hazed for sticking up for the women. Or something.

[cwydro]

55. I know...

I think a lot of these kids don't grow up with the values some of us take for granted. Most of us just KNOW it is wrong to be sexist, ageist, etc....but that is not the culture for a lot of people in this country.

And with the latest news that the military is now allowing waivers for serious midemeanors and even some felonies...they are letting criminals in the door, and not even tracking them.

Jeez, look at that cretin Stephen Green, who was the ringleader for the murder/rape of that 14 year old girl and her family. How many incidents do we NEVER even hear about?

[hedgehog]

66. Here's the worst part - every soldier is now tainted by the actions

of these men. I didn't say by the actions of a few, because I have no idea what percentage is involved. The real question is why the military commanders are ignoring this problem. Assigning escorts to ensure everyone's safety is a start. The armed forces were segregated until 1948, now they are considered one of the most integrated institutions in the country. The military can change if we insist upon it.

[lukasahero]

85. "Assigning escorts "

How can these women trust the escorts?

[jcrew2001]

70. Do women in the military have boyfriends they can

use for protection. Because I've heard stories about military couples and the love boat, and while it might be helpful for women to stick together, I think it would be just as good to have male allies to prevent attackers.

Its a shame there isn't punishment, but I'm not surprised that such rapes occur. The military didn't want women, and they don't want gays, it seems like they are not able to handle sexuality at all.

[lostnfound]

91. Women soldiers dying of dehydration

Janet Karpinski testified that a couple of women on her base had died from dehydration because it was common for women to decide not to drink any liquids after 3 pm, because if they had to get up to go to the bathroom they were afraid of being raped. And that coroners were NOT supposed to list 'dehydration' as the cause of death.

This is apparently not an occasional problem but predictable. One of the guests on DemocracyNow! this week was saying that the rapists were hiding out and waiting at the latrines all night.

As far as boyfriends, I'm not sure a woman could count on being able to have him around when she needed an escort -- reassigned, on duty, whatever -- and what if she's already married?

[jcrew2001]

113. i meant boyfriends or male allies that she can

trust to protect her from rapists. They are going to attack the most vulnerable and isolated women. Unfortunately, many women feel coerced in sex in order to gain protection from other potential rapists - its a difficult and serious situation that can be corrected with a strict superior officer and patrols. There needs to be accountability somewhere.

Although women are capable of serving, there may be resentment among men, and men being physically superior will use that advantage to force women into rape.

[L A Woman]

72. doesn't surprise me...I had my share of it in the Navy

Treatment of women was horrendous when I was in the Navy in the late 80s. It really is sort of the "last bastion" and many males will take steps "to make women sorry" for what they have done (that is, for stepping into their territory).

When it happened to me (just harrassment, not rape), I had absolutely no recourse. My supervisor did it, his supervisor did it and there was no one else who cared.

I'm sorry to hear it's still not being dealt with properly.

[BlueIris]

80. "...still being treated as inferior soldiers and sex toys by many of their male colleagues."

Nothing ever changes, does it, boys? Even, and perhaps especially, in the military. I am ashamed and disgusted to have to share civilization with the male gender.

[Bonobo]

84. "and men have the nerve to tell us they love us"

Nuff said.

[Mister Ed]

93. Do I not? And may I not say I do?

K&R, by the way.

[motocicleta]

86. This may be the sickest part of an

entirely sick war.

K n R

[NEOBuckeye]

87. War is Hell

I think that is the fundamental root of this problem. We expect people, as soldiers, to be killers, but we also want them to conduct themselves properly. Say what???

It's a paradox that just doesn't and cannot compute in the human psyche, because when a man is trained and commanded to kill, and actually carries out those orders, he is killing much more than another person. He is also killing his own humanity. It is sad, but hardly surprising that rape would be so common amongst soldiers. It is just one of many spinoffs of this deadening of the human heart and soul.

Maybe, we shouldn't expect men to be killers? But I suppose that realization would also mean that we have finally grown tired of war. Are we finally getting to that point?

[maxanne]

97. you're right

The military is a macho culture - soldiers are taught to disassociate themselves from their
emotions, and kill people. As you point out, this takes a toll on the psyche. Can we realistically
expect people who engage in war to come out of it sane and whole? Women have long been regarded as
"spoils of war," and the US military has long been a bastion of sexism. That gets paid some lip service
but it's never REALLY been addressed.

My best friend's sister spent 18 months in Iraq. She was lucky, she was in a Guard unit full
of really good guys - she was one of them, and they were very protective of her. She told us
awful stories though, of women in other units who were raped in the showers, etc.

[lonestarnot]

88. Another price to pay for a bushitler.

[MasonJar]

94. Haliburton at work again. Why was water not readily assessible

to these soldiers? Why? This is beyond tragic. It is criminal

[AwakeAtLast]

96. My husband took it upon himself to protect his female soldiers

He and some of the other men in his unit made it their personal responsibility to make sure that the women in their unit were never alone except when they were in their sleeping areas. They had to physically remove people from those areas a few times.

Don't know if this came out, but all of the women are prescribed birth control pills for this very reason. Scary and sad. :(

[jcrew2001]

100. Exactly, war is about having the survival mentality

and unfortunately that includes not just the enemy, but the conditions at camp. Superiors and other men must take it upon themselves to protect women. Its an unfortunate fact of life that sexual frustration will build up in the predominately male military. Some of these men may be immature or they may be superiors who use and abuse their power.

The military command know this and it does not surprise me that they distribute birth control or pay for abortions. Its a by-product of wartime, look at all the half-white children in vietnam.

As for the latrine - could the women just use a bucket or bedpan.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jcrew2001]

109. boredom and not having any women around

or girlfriends to keep them in line. It also comes down to the superiors who condone this activity or those who are strictly against it.

[jcrew2001]

114. I think bored soldiers isolated from their families

and hometowns will undergo all kinds of stress anxiety; and some men may become mentally deranged. Just because someone is a soldier does not mean they are incapable of snapping or causing bodily harm to a female.

Its a sad fact of life, that there are men who will rape women if the opportunity exists or if they are under conditions that affect their mental state. A woman needs to protect herself at all times. Just like its not a good idea for a woman to walk home by herself at night, there are criminals out there.

A woman needs to take all precautions in protecting herself especially if her superior officers do not.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

118. I'm a woman who "walks home by herself at night" often. In the middle of a tagged downtown.

Sheesh, we're hardly wilting violets.

And, I appreciate your concern. :hi: MKJ

[jcrew2001]

121. I know many women or girls who are

concerned for one another when they walk home by themselves. If you're at base and you know there are bad men around, that's just being realistic and taking precautions before going to the latrines. Its unfortunate, but there will always be psychos out there.

[Warren DeMontague]

117. Post #101

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=377121&mesg_id=383494

"anthropology has proven that the male point of view is different from the female when studying animals, etc."

--you said that.

Allow me to state, first off, that there is NO excuse for the behavior outlined in the OP, and it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, rooted out, etc. No excuse, none.

However- merely responding to your previous post(s)... If "anthropology has proven that the male point of view is different from the female", etc- and assuming you're not a man, what qualifies you to be making blanket statements about a male sex drive that you've never experienced?

[GaYellowDawg]

119. Hear, hear!

Very well said, and I guess she doesn't have an answer.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

107. Yes, the women could use a bucket or bedpan ...

but a knife or gun is far more effective at deterring an attack.

Is it somehow the woman's fault because she chooses to use the latrine instead of some piece of gear?

[jcrew2001]

110. in war its about survival whether its

at camp or in the field. i don't think anywhere is safe when you are in a warzone and while it is unfortunate that rapes occur at the latrines, it is something that is not surprising. i wonder if there are assigned patrolmen near the latrines?

[gatorboy]

111. This just doesn't happen in war or some far off land.

Attacks have been reported in bases on US soil. Stop making excuses for these people. :eyes:

[jcrew2001]

116. It happens anywhere and everywhere

its a sad reality, and these criminals need to prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I'm not even sure if danger of punishment is enough to stop these mentally deranged soldiers, I have no doubt that for those who have been to war or are of that mindset they may feel invincible or not care about the consequences.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

112. Can you trust the assigned patrolmen?

Weren't the guards at Abu Graib M.P.'s?

If this is happening a lot, then it's a failure of leadership to stop it. Leadership seems to be focused on avoiding bad press, however.

If the soldiers want it stopped, they have the means. I wonder if the term "blanket party" still has meaning in today's modern army.

[jcrew2001]

115. You have to trust someone and there needs to

be accountability by somebody. A superior officer needs to be accountable and patrols need to do their duty. There will always be bad seeds and criminals with mentally deviant behavior and a woman soldier needs to be aware of everything and its tragic and sad that they have to die and be concerned about this.

Many of these men and women may be naive and immature. Its like college and its a frat house, and the women are out-numbered and physically dominated. The women need to seek protection from allies she can trust and the superior officers need to be strict and prosecute rapists.

[AwakeAtLast]

120. Some of them took to using empty water bottles at night. n/t

[donsu]

103. you mean the religiously insane bushgang gives them birth control

pills.

lordy

[stonebone]

102. bump

[kerstin]

108. It isn't "sad," it isn't "a shame," and it can't be glibly chalked up to

the "hell of war" or the notorious male sex drive.

It is a crime, and an egregious one at that.

What if these were male soldiers dying in their bunks from dehydration for fear of being raped by their compatriots?

If the military cannot come up with something to protect these, our soldiers, from this apparently widespread and ritualistic abuse, then they should not admit them.

This sickens me to no end.

[Jamastiene]

122. And that's the main reason I am glad I never joined the military.

While I have known many respectable soldiers in my life, I know that bad ones are out there and I know my luck. And the "boys will be boys" reasoning I see in some of the posts in this thread are apalling to see on DU. There is no excuse.