I'm 100% In Support Of Rep. Obey And I Now Have Even Greater Respect For Him. Do You?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

Poll question: I'm 100% In Support Of Rep. Obey And I Now Have Even Greater Respect For Him. Do You?

This is in reference to Rep. Obey speaking bluntly and honestly to the two protesters that confronted him in the halls of congress. I just got done watching the video myself and afterwards I felt the need to applaud him. He didn't shy away and talked straight and blunt. I already respect him as a congressman but now respect him even more. Reading the threads on this though, it is clear some were taken aback by his comments and found offense. So I'm wondering how the split is on this, since I've seen others proud of him as well as well as those against his words. Here's the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS4wHMCc57k&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgrassrootsamerica4us%2Eorg%2F

Please vote.

[bullimiami]

1. 'idiot liberal' didnt just pop into his mouth. it came out of his head.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. I'm Aware. He Was Referring To Idiot Liberals, Not All Liberals.

Our side is not immune from having idiots of our own. He wasn't talking about the rest of us, he was talking about the ones of narrow mind and irrational sentiment. I'm a liberal but not an idiot liberal, so I take no offense to his comment. I just respected him for his straight answers and for not immediately walking away. He discussed things for several minutes and did the best he could to explain his position until it became clear to him that he just wasn't going to get through to them. I know some are mad at him for his comments but not me; I actually respected him for actually having the discussion and being as open, honest and blunt as he was.

I'm actually pretty fascinated by the poll results so far above. Perfectly split.

[bullimiami]

7. yeah, im a jew but not a f*&%ing jew. i see.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. Yeah, Like, That's Soooooo Comparable.

:eyes:

[bullimiami]

11. it is to me. im jewish, and liberal. i see the comparison. he insulted you, too.

You just dont see it.

Youre telling me youre just a liberal, not an idiot liberal.

[havocmom]

22. No, he voiced fustration at liberals who never learned much in civics class

Democracy only works with an informed population that grasps the system. Too many in the US don't have a clue and not all of them are right wingers.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Well Said.

[havocmom]

24. LOL thanks. Hey, you & I don't generally find ourselves on same side of an arguement

Cool beans that we do once in awhile :toast:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. LOL Thing Is, We Probably Agree On A Lot More Than You Think.

I'd say the overwhelming majority of us here probably would see eye to eye on over 90% of common issues. But we (DU generally) tend to sometimes only focus on each other's 10% gap. But at the end of the day, we are all fighting the same principled fight and I'm proud to do so with all of ya, no matter how often we may be on different sides of certain issues.

So a huge toast right back atcha! :toast:

[havocmom]

28. Good point about the 10%.

Looking forward to locking horns witcha on another day ;)

[bullimiami]

27. respectfully, among friends, i disagree.

[havocmom]

29. das cool, but curious what part you disagree with

:shrug:

[bullimiami]

42. i dont like the way he acted to her. i dont like the fact that he seemed like

he was not very interested in talking to her from the outset and his body language seems like he was trying to get away quick.
i dont agree that his behavior was acceptable and I dont agree that it was not insulting to all so called liberals.
I also dont agree with his attitude that she didnt have a clue about the funding bill.

[havocmom]

49. OK, but my post was about people who don't grasp how the system works

and the frustration that can cause for those who are doing what they can in that very system.

Guess I just don't get what your disagreement is with my post.

For the record, as far as how all of them acted: to me it was frustration on top of ignorance of how the government is set up to operate on top of frustration at a bad situation, which is the war. The gentleman in question is not responsible for the war nor for the misunderstanding about, and ignorance of, how the government rules work and what is possible. To harangue one who is trying to find an end is misplaced passion at best and pissing on one of the good guys at worst.

[bullimiami]

79. i dont see that he became mad at her because she didnt get how the system works.

he was mad at her once she confronted him on his support for the supplemental funding.

[havocmom]

87. He was caught ON CAMERA trying to explain that DEMS don't have enough votes!

That was his attempt to explain how the system works. He was berated for not doing something he has NO POWER to do as yet and he was trying to get through to people why things can't be changed in the snap of some fingers.

I am beginning to understand his frustration.

[bullimiami]

98. geez. it doesnt seem like we saw the same video.

i saw her come up to him cold, introduce herself, from that point it seemed like a reasonable exchange although it appeared he was looking for an escape, ok he was busy but he gave her time, it was when she asked about the appropriation bill and it was obvious they disagreed that he lost his cool and came with an innaproprate ad hominim attack. he basically called her stupid because she didnt agree, she isnt the only one, there are other members of the house who disagree with him as well.

she didnt berate him, she thinks his position is wrong.
he probably should have tried to explain to her why he thinks cutting off the funds wouldnt work instead of calling her names.

[omega minimo]

111. Citizens have the right to lobby legislators directly and when they do

legislators have the right to not act like jerks, not call them names, not act as if citizen lobbying is out of line.

That is basic civics.

The "votecounting" mantra of 21st Century Americans who use "strategery" as an excuse for INACTION is why we're in the mess we're in and why more people DON'T take it upon themselves to DO SOMETHING.

[genie_weenie]

50. Too bad America isn't a Democracy...

[havocmom]

52. Used to be a republic that practiced a modified form of democratic choice

Now, we are struggling to put rule of law back into governance. But it will be easier when people understand you can't just fix it in a few weeks. The battle is still raging between us and the fascists. Our margin is very slim just yet.

[genie_weenie]

53. Unfortunately, I feel the fascists won long ago

and are angry that Bush has imperilied their systems of control.

But, one can hope through the flow of knowledge and the removal of the gatekeepers that more and more will learn to think for themselves and throw off the chains of jingoistic patriotism. :hi:

[havocmom]

56. We just gotta have enough hope to keep teaching and inspiring others to work WITH us.

And, yeah, the jingo thing is dangerous. We are a people to well conditioned to respond to 30 second commercials without thinking much.

The GOP took DECADES tying up their power. ALL that knee-jerk hate radio geared to hit the disengaged masses was not unlike the way gang recruitment works in the 'hoods. Make the unloved think you love them and they will be your tools even to their own detriment.

I look at all the non-critical-thinking bots I know and one characteristic stands out: ALL the ones I know personally are lost children looking to get some parental approval they didn't get as kids. They will latch on to 'the man' and give blind allegiance in hopes that it will somehow make daddy accept and love them.

So between those lost herds and the people in so much pain they can't understand why it doesn't stop NOW, we have some brave souls on the Hill trying to unravel the carefully cultivated morass. They really need our help and understanding too.

It's a fucking mess and I, too, fear the fascists have won. They tied it up real well. Not just here, but globally. Gonna be a long time before humanity gets back on top of the greed machine.

[yurbud]

77. part of the job of politicians is communication and Democrats often do it VERY poorly. Bills aren't

written for the average joe to read either. It needs to be knocked down to a couple of bullet points.

The GOP does that very well with their very bad ideas and proposals. It shouldn't be that hard for Democrats to do it with good ideas.

[havocmom]

88. Part of the problem is also decreased resources for SCHOOLS

Classes in government & civics? Lots and lots of schools scrapped them years ago.

Like I mentioned, the GOP has spend DECADES laying groundwork for the power grab we are dealing with now. Part of that has been the systematic destruction of too much REAL education of the public.

It is not just that DEMS don't communicate. BIG part of the issue is too damn many people simply have NO understanding of how the government works. That is a failure of society, not the DEMS.

[yurbud]

100. David Brock covered well in RIGHT WING NOISE MACHINE. One hold out to assault:

colleges and universities.

The haven't broken us yet, but they are trying by making it harder for kids to go to college, attacking tenure, forcing schools to rely on mostly part time instructors, and attempting to micromanage the curriculum in the mind-numbing way that is already done at public schools. Oddly enough, when the right sets up their charter schools,they largely free them from those content regulations.

What's jamming them up is most people go into college teaching as a vocation and teach the same way they would whether they have tenure or even job security.

And students appreciate getting a college education that teaches them to think and doesn't just function like a sequel to high school.

[yurbud]

78. Think the GOP might have gotten so far because Dems failed to take communication seriously?

I do.

It's probably their second biggest fault behind trying to be the corporate "me too" party.

[havocmom]

89. I think ignorance of the system and distractions from what is really important

play a bigger roll than any failure to communicate on the part of DEMS. The GOP has been cultivating ignorance, intolerance, fear for DECADES.

[yurbud]

99. they largely got away with it because Democrats ignored how crucial communication was

Air America is a good step toward turning this around.

You can't make the corrections in the media and our educational system if no one knows what you are trying to do or even why.

[dogday]

82. Imagine how the poor frustated Mother was feeling

if that is all that took to set OBEY off, she has a son looking at his 3rd tour, PTSD and no way to get help, tried to contact OBEY, but OBEY's office never responded.... The only thing she was informed about was that she wanted help for her son....

[havocmom]

90. She isn't all it took to set him off.

He has been trying to get changes made and he gets attacked from all sides.

He bloody well has a point.

[dogday]

92. She has a vested personal interest in the war... A child

Somehow that trumps his personal problems. He was in the wrong on this, he lost his temper, and he should of respected this woman's sacrifice and frustration about this war... When he explained what the bill actually would do at the end of the video, both people then said, we want to help, what can we do to help?

Names are never the way to go in discussing anything, in any situation... Game over man, game over....

[havocmom]

93. And we all feel for her loss. That is part of why we work to end the war

AND deal with the reality of what can and can't be done in any given instant. We are not dissing her nor diminishing her loss. We are trying to be constructive. Attacking the pols who are working toward solutions is NOT constructive.

[dogday]

94. I did not see an attack... She had a mild demeanor

and was asking questions... She did not understand about the bill and was frustrated and was asking questions...

[havocmom]

95. Confrontation with hidden camera

uh-huh

[dogday]

97. Son going to his third term in Iraq with no support

from the VA... This woman was seriously seeking help for her problem....Again Obey should not of called anyone a name and made the insinuation they were smoking something... Wrong way to deal with anyone...

[SlowDownFast]

65. So not the same. Ridiculous.

I'm liberal, I've protested war, been arrested for it, written hundreds of letters to both newspapers and reps. Campaigned for Carl Levin, worked for Greenpeace, gone door to door, etc, etc...

There are such things as idiot liberals. See 'em all the time. Purist ideologues who have no concept of compromise (when there is no other way), spout off about things with which they have no realistic concept of. KEY WORD: REALISTIC.

Idiot liberals give ammo to the neocons, turn off moderates and impede progressive movements.

Rep. Obey is a true and tested anti-war liberal and is on our side. Anyone who says different is an idiot, whether liberal or conservative.

[havocmom]

91. A-men!

and the GOP exploits the situation over and over again. Branding all liberals with the fringe that just can't/won't deal in reality. Hey, just like the $$ help they gave Nader. All part of their plans to marginalize us.

[Jonathan50]

15. Idiocy is in the eye of the beholder

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. -Galileo Galilei

Quite frankly, I find myself disagreeing with you often although I seldom bother to make it known.

I guess it could be said that I think you're an idiot although I wouldn't normally phrase it that way. But since you seem to think it's fine to call people idiots then I'll just assume that you won't take umbrage if I apply the label to you.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Feel Free.

But since in the category of intellectualism I'm probably superior, any level you attempt to knock me down by default would knock you down lower as well. It's all relative. So feel free, you're just merely criticizing us both in the process.

[Jonathan50]

32. snicker

"But since in the category of intellectualism I'm probably superior"

And your evidence for this is?

[LittleClarkie]

101. I suppose he's a self hater then. Because he is a Liberal

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/David_Obey.htm

See?

[sandnsea]

2. How about neutral

No more, no less. He said some things that needed saying, but it would have been preferable not to call her stupid. OTOH, it would be nice if some on the left would recognize how hard so many Dems are working and quit being so damned cynical about every single politician. The way vast majority actually DO care.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

5. Sorry Bout That. Just Added It For Ya, Though Maybe A Bit Late.

[EST]

3. There are two congress people whom I have always referred to

as the one whom I could quote with equanimity, and whose word, along with those few others, I could always trust. Although this does little to betray my trust in their honesty and clarity, it does call into question whether or not they've spent so much time in harness that they have fallen out of touch with real people.

It is a matter of fact that the center of American politics has moved so far to the right that, in the main, tricky dick Nixon looks like a flaming liberal.

Mr. Obey's unfortunate remarks should, and hopefully will, call down enough fire from people of integrity that he rethinks his position and apologizes immediately!

[Bonobo]

6. I vote for not creating another false dichotomy issue that splits us in half.

I don't know that lady or Obey enough to say with certainty who is "right" and the truth probably would lie somewhere in the middle anyway.

But these "internets" and media today is too quick to turn people into maniacs on one side or another.

If you get don't think an ad is offensive, you are a rapist.

If you laugh at an Ann Coulter joke, you are a GLBT trasher.

Etc, etc.

[tandot]

9. I really don't understand why she pestered Obey.

He is already anti-war and on our side. Why not spend all that energy to confront pro-war politicians?

[Fresh_Start]

10. He's acting like the "macaca" man

He is completely disrespecting his constituent. Macaca word didn't bother me half as much as the "welcome to the real world comment" in the same discussion.
There was no reason for either politician to sink that low.
Sorry Obey, lost respect for good reason.

[karlrschneider]

12. You're right. He should have promised, on the spot, to deliver everything she wanted.

And done it by now.

[Fresh_Start]

14. No, he just should have avoided name calling

that really isn't too much to ask

[karlrschneider]

19. I said as much 5 different times but I'm not really worried that he insulted one person

who was badgering him about something he has little or no control over.

[havocmom]

25. And people should be better versed before they lay into their reps

Might be worthwhile to learn a bit about the system before going on a field trip to raise hell in front of cameras.

[karlrschneider]

36. Not to mention HIDDEN cameras. That's something I'd expect from the GOPigs.

:eyes:

[havocmom]

47. Yep, gonna make it hard to find good candidates

with treatment like that of the people on our side.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. !

:applause:

[Jonathan50]

13. Idiot liberal

The dude certainly has a way with words.

One would think that an experienced politician would have better control of his temper.

If I called my boss an "idiot manager" I'd be hitting the streets forthwith.

The people are the employers and the politicians are the employees.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. And You Are Making His Point For Him In My Opinion.

Just the fact that you consider 'the people' to be defined as those who carry irrational expectations and narrow minded views on how this war must end, shows how misguided your premise above is. The 'people' encompasses everybody, not just those on the radical left. I hope you understand that.

[Jonathan50]

37. Please show me where I said anything about the "radical left".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. Ummmm, You Didn't Say It. That Was The Whole Problem. Not Sure Why You Thought Otherwise.

My whole point is that you put forth a premise that those that debated with him were 'the people', as if they were representing ALL of us. But they were only a small portion of us; i.e. the radical left. So your point in essence was false, since it used them as the basis for your 'the people' argument, when they don't represent 'the people'.

[Jonathan50]

43. Those that engaged Obey were American citizens.

And by definition they are part of "the people".

Obey had no right to publically diss any of his employers and I'm quite surprised that a veteran politician would do so in any situation, let alone one where it could possibly be overheard by others.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. I'm Amazed By This Narrow Point Of View. Amazed By It.

[Jonathan50]

46. Why are you amazed?

How would you expect to be treated if you called your boss an idiot?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. If I Had 100 Equal In Power But Separate Bosses And I Called Only 1 An Idiot?

I'm sure the idiot boss would lash out a bit but I'd fully expect the other 99 to treat me just fine. Hell, might even expect a bunch of the 99 to like me more since they may have been wanting to call the other one an idiot themselves.

That answers your question I hope?

[Jonathan50]

63. What if I were to say "idiot bosses"?

Obey didn't say "idiot liberal" he said "idiot liberals" that is plural and has no upper bounds on the number of "idiot liberals" he is referring to. It could easily be construed as meaning every liberal who is anti war.

You still haven't responded to my point that it is one of the first lessons a politician learns not to lose his temper.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. I Would Expect The Other 99 To Be Intelligent Enough To Know That They

weren't the ones who crapped in the coffee pot.

As far as his losing his temper goes, guess that's a matter of perception. What you see as temper I see as blunt honesty. What you see as reason for resentment I see as reason to believe he's a human being like the rest of us but one who has now earned greater respect from me because of his blunt honesty and emotion. Could he have handled it better? Maybe so. But it wouldn't have been real. I respect the fuck out of him for having been real.

[Jonathan50]

66. Did you respect Cheney for telling Leahy to "go fuck yourself"?

You gotta admit that was pretty blunt.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

67. Well I See This Debate Has Now Taken A Steep Turn Into The Realm Of Logical Emptiness.

Sorry, but that reply was so logically absurd that it literally just killed this conversation. If you have anything serious to add I may listen, but if you're going to proceed with logically warped comments like that then I have no choice but to bid you adieu.

[Jonathan50]

68. Please show me how my question was "logically warped".

Two blunt statments:

"idiot liberals"

"go fuck yourself"

Both are fairly insulting. I really don't see that much difference.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Sorry, But It's Too Late And I'm Too Tired To Play The Role Of Teacher Right Now.

Hopefully you could make the distinction on your own. If not, maybe if I feel like it I'll teach you the logic tomorrow.

Goodnight.

[Jonathan50]

74. The only real difference between the two statements.

Is that one was said by someone you like and the other was said by someone you don't like.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. F. But I'll Let You Take The Test Again Tomorrow.

[Jonathan50]

80. What test is that?

[tandot]

30. "The people are the employers and the politicians are the employees"

I agree.

Imagine you are an employee who is working as hard as possible to achieve your company's goal. However, some of your colleagues are lazy SOBs who do nothing or actively prevent you from doing your job better. And, your boss (if he is not a complete idiot) is aware of who is at fault. How would you feel if your employer would constantly go to you and criticize you for doing a piss-poor job while he/she ignores the lazy SOBs who are actually at fault for the whole mess?

Why not spend the energy on people who are at fault? Why pester people who are already on our side?

:shrug:

edit for typo

[Jonathan50]

45. I haven't seen where the lady in question has "constantly" bothered Rep Obey

Has this been some sort of regular thing?

[tandot]

48. I watched Hardball this afternoon.

Tweety said something about a lot of Democratic politicians complaining about being beleaguered by their base and that they said that they really don't have the power to change anything right now. As long as not more Republican senators are switching to our side, we are screwed.

Why not spend all that energy on the pro-war assholes? Why pick on guys who are on OUR side? Another DUer said ""...it's about changing the minds that need to be changed, not the ones already on our side"

As sad as I feel for her, that lady is picking on the wrong guy.

[Jonathan50]

51. People are frustrated by the inaction

I suspect that the "pro war assholes" are getting bugged too but they would never admit it.

[havocmom]

54. And the decent pols in the trenches on the Hill are frustrated

when people don't understand it can't be fixed in a few weeks by a party with such a slim majority.

The GOP took DECADES to set up their power grab. Won't be fixed in a few weeks. They tied things up pretty tight before they started the damned war. Will take a bit of time to unravel the mess.

And, yes, it pissed me off that people are dying. But reality is what it is. When more and more people get mad enough, the majority on the Hill will be more powerful. Until then, every damned inch of progress is a struggle.

Frustration enough for all.

[tandot]

55. I want to see a video of a Republican pro-war asshole being "bugged"

and reacting like that.

He obviously lost his temper and shouldn't have said it. But, our energy should go toward those people who are at fault. Nothing will change if we focus on people who are already on our side.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

18. I don't see the

OperationMindCrime intentionally creates divisiveness entry. Guess I'll sit this one out.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Not Divisive, Just Curious. The Results So Far Are Pretty Interesting Too.

So equally split since the poll's start. But not everything has to be 'divisive', some things can simply be discussions. But your tone above isn't one conducive to discussion, it is one conducive to needless and empty provocation. So not sure the finger's quite pointed at me pal.

[trumad]

31. "Not Divisive, Just Curious"

Dude--you owe me a new computer monitor.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Why? Does Truth Hurt Your Monitor As Much As It Hurts You To Hear It?

Must be a republican monitor. Next time buy blue. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[gratefultobelib]

34. That was a tough vote. I didn't exactly gain respect for him, but I definitely

thought he was being badgered by people who were not clear on their facts. I could see why he was frustrated, so I voted for the 2nd one.

[nevergiveup]

35. To me

this film in a very human way illustrated how god awful frustrating this war has been for all of us who have opposed it from the beginning. I know he didn't handle himself very well but my concern at the time of watching it was that Obey might be headed for a stroke or heart attack.

[KingofNewOrleans]

38. The two protestors don't deserve respect

they we're ill-informed and why they chose Obey as their target to begin with baffles any concept of logic. Obey could have been more courteous, but they were really dense.

[kestrel91316]

39. Of course you approve of what he said about liberals.

Remind me again exactly why you are a member of DU, 'cause you have got me genuinely puzzled.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. Correction: What He Said About 'Idiot' Liberals, Not Liberals In General.

Furthermore, I'm a member of DU because I'm a proud Democrat who loves this site and all the amazing information I learn here. Best liberal site on the web. And that's in spite of posters who post childish provocations that imply someone's a freeper merely because they're disagreed with. :hi:

[Jonathan50]

57. How about posters who claim intellectual superiority with no evidence?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

62. Actually,

The opinion is my own as is the evidence. I appreciate your assistance in providing it for me in this thread. I said upthread the world probably. I take that word back now. But that is after all just my opinion. Feel free to have your own of course. I'm pretty confident in mine. I'd have a feeling yours would be more just for sake of saying 'nooooo, I am!' than it would be based on actual objective deduction.

[Jonathan50]

84. Got arrogance?

[FyurFly]

73. This is the Du not the LU n/t

[Jcrowley]

58. Blunt

as in with a dull instrument?

I'm very interested in hearing your solutions and strategies for ending the war upon Iraq and elsewhere. As well as interested in hearing about some of the things you may be doing at present towards that goal that we could all learn from and bring to our communities.

Thanks in advance.

[BlooInBloo]

59. I want to vote "pro", but have more criticisms than you provided...

... Chief among them was the Rep's "you have your facts screwed up". That's almost CERTAINLY true, BUT IT'S TO BE EXPECTED. They're CITIZENS, not POLITICIANS. Indeed, that's essentially the entire reason we HAVE politicians - because it's impractical IN THE EXTREME to expect everyone to be up on everything (the general rationale for the increased efficient due to division of labor).

The Rep's tone clearly indicated "no matter how much I agree with the bottom-line you're exressing, there's no point in continuing this conversation, due to the fact that you have no serious idea how things work." That, IMO, was a fundamental misstep on the Rep's part - and expresses precisely what constitutes a "Washington Insider" (a la the Wise Old Men of the WaPo, as well as those who were there in Congress at the end of the Vietnam War) versus what constitutes an heuristic understanding of what the citizens confronting him are "truly" (in some sense) after: an *understanding* of just WHY it's not as easy as that. It's TRUE that he doesn't have a "magic wand" in his jacket. But in MERELY saying that, the Rep falls back on an uncharitably literalistic interpretation of what his/the constituents are saying/asking/demanding. What they WANT (assuming there's no magic-war-ending-wand at hand) is an understanding of the process sufficient to see WHY it isn't that easy.

Basically, he took it too personally, and lost his cool. He's not totally to blame for that, since she/they were, well, talking to HIM - but he is non-negligibly partly to blame for it. He should (IMO) have had a better feel for what it would take (again, aside from a magic wand) to mollify the critic(s) - if not by magic wand (strawman, indicating fed-up-exasperation-lost-cool), then by rationality (the true casualty of the conversation).

In a nutshell - the politician is a PRO - it's his JOB, his RESPONSIBILITY (among others) to adequately explain the political constraints on intuitively obvious actions that exist. He failed in this, though he did try for awhile. He should've tried harder (it's among his duties) - and more importantly, he shouldn't have lost sight, in the "heat of battle".

In an even smaller nutshell: The teacher in me applauds his initial intentions, but criticizes his endurance.

That's why I want to give a thumbs-up, but an even more qualified thumbs-up than you provided for.

(note: I only became familiar with this event through this thread.)

[AtomicKitten]

61. very illuminating

I was a bit put off by the "idiot liberal" comment that seemed to come precipitously and a bit too easily, HOWEVER .......

It is clear Obey knows what he is talking about, has ending the war as the spearhead of his agenda, and was perhaps a teensy bit testy (cranky bordering on rude) with the faction on the left who are convinced they know it all (and will be happy to brow-beat others with very little provocation) but clearly have some misconceptions regarding process.

Thanks for the You Tube link; if viewed without a preconceived notion or POV, it is actually quite enlightening.

[Ellipsis]

69. Obey is a good guy ..and I'm damn proud he's from Wisconsin

...plain speaking from a more rural part of the state, progressive in the Lafallotte tradition.


Take him for who he is. Not perfect...like any of us are.






Oops ...sorry AtomicKitten, I meant to post under you. Love the handle by the way.

[AtomicKitten]

70. As annoyed as he was --

he took the time to try to explain the reality of the situation which I found quite enlightening.

He was visibly upset over the insinuation that he wasn't doing anything to stop the war, and I'm glad he took the time to state his case. I just hope others were paying attention.

More importantly, the man had the good sense to vote 'no' on the war to begin with, so he's definitely okay in my book.

[semillama]

119. He spoke at my brother's college commencement

and he was a damn fine speaker, and blunt as well. Obey is definitely a LaFollete progressive. He's working hard on our issues and we should cut him some slack.

As far as the "idiot liberals" comment? Well, there's an old African-American saying that applies: "If you throw a stone into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one what got hit."

[The Straight Story]

72. I don't know why folks are upset over this, been called worse here

:)

People on the same side can, and will, get all uptight and spew things forth that they might not normally say in polite conversation.

Our liberal base can be split into several categories, just like religions are. We got our fundies and orthodox, etc and so on.

I think he poorly chose his words though, which seems to show a lack of control - even if it might seem understandable given the situation, I would expect a more articulate response. Oh wait, I was thinking Obama :rofl:

[yurbud]

76. You need a "mixed bag" option. If Democrats were as blunt, "idiot liberals" wouldn't have to ask

obvious questions. Democrats are too often trying so hard not to offend republicans and their big business masters that they don't say plainly what they are doing, and why they are doing it the way they are doing it.

Pelosi needs to speak that plainly (without losing her cool of course):

"Most of the republicans and a significant number of democrats want the war to continue. This is the best we can get. If you don't like it, let congressmen X, Y, & Z know. The further cost and death is on their hands, not mine."

[Vinca]

81. I understand his frustration, but he shouldn't be rude.

It hasn't changed how I feel about him one way or the other. Citizens lobbying for withdrawal from Iraq must be smart enough to realize the number of votes needed to pass legislation. They should be going after members opposed to withdrawal.

[qanda]

85. He was very rude

Not necessary.

[mmonk]

83. Nope.

Political cowardice and name calling doesn't serve our nation.

[Jonathan50]

86. Bump for Operationmindcrime, I want to continue our debate

[tammywammy]

96. He acted as I probably would in that situtation

Trying to explain that we don't have enough votes and the woman just doesn't get it.

I probably wouldn't have said "idoit liberals," though.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

102. Petitioners for redress of grievances should be limited to kissing the robes of The Mighty.

Phrases such as "Your Eminence", "Sire", and "Your humble servant begs.." should be mandatory to the peasantry who dare to approach the democratically elected aristocracy. Public whippings for insubordination would be beneficial to the rest of the populace who may entertain ideas such as those outlined in the Bill of Rights.

[LittleClarkie]

104. Or at the least remember that the person they speak to is human

he's apologized for being rude.

Otherwise he had an arguement same as any human being could have.

He is not as you say. He is one of the most liberal Congressmen in Wisconsin.

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/David_Obey.htm

If he were an aristocrat, he wouldn't get elected in his area.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

105. He's a decider of human fate. A person of power.

Whether he is elected or not, he holds power over people. The right to question him is embedded in the Bill of Rights.

If he chooses to shout down the questioner than he should expect criticism from the lesser folk who reserve the right to petition the government for redress of grievances.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

108. Wow. I Mean, Do You Even Know Who Rep. Obey Is? Doesn't Sound Like It.

Your post is so off the mark of the reality of who he is it isn't even funny. Actually, it was so off the mark maybe it is a bit funny.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. What is it that you find off the mark?

He was elected to represent the people. Those questioning and/or disagreeing with his plan to fund the war have every right to do so. He reacted arrogantly because they refused to buy into his plan to "end the war".

Saying that they do "us" (whoever, "us is) by questioning the maneuvers of politicians is laughable.

[Nikki Stone1]

103. He could have expressed anger without using the word "liberal" like NEOCON would

Negatively and with a sneer.

Who does he think votes for him, conservatives?

He insulted us all.

[demrabble]

106. "This is in reference to Rep. Obey speaking bluntly and honestly to the two protesters that confront

"This is in reference to Rep. Obey yelling and disrespecting the two concerned citizens that expressed their concern about the illegal and immoral war and asked him why he is supporting giving more money to Bush to wage war in the halls of congress."

Fixed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

109. Nah. Mine Was More Accurate LOL.

They did more then express concern. They simply refused to listen to reality and had such hard heads that even the simplest of logics escaped them. They also appeared to have no real interest in discussion or educating themselves further on the subject whatsoever. It seemed like no matter what his answers they would've just continued in their same stubborn, hard-headed and closed minded fashion. People like that make us look extremely bad in my opinion with their irrationality and simple refusal to acknowledge common sense and basic premise. I can understand completely his frustration with them and their misguided and almost delusional arguments.

[Pushed To The Left]

107. While I could see his points, I don't think he should have blown up at them

Considering that Rep. Obey and the protesters have the same goal, they should be able to talk about how to end the war without attacking each other and starting a "circular firing squad".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

110. I Think His Frustration Stemmed From The Fact That He Was Trying To

have an open conversation that would help them understand the basic concepts of what he's doing, but they refused to listen to reason and wouldn't consider for a second what he was trying to say. He attempted to answer all of their questions honestly and honorably but they had no interest in that. They just had an interest in sticking to their narrow minded and ignorant talking points and trying to stab him with them as much as they could. They had no interest in talking about how to end the war or why his strategy is a realistic one. They only had interest in telling him their way and that it's their way or the highway. I think anyone would get frustrated dealing with closed minded people like that who are too stupid to shut their mouth and listen every now and then. So I think he just simply was blunt and honest with his feelings and let loose a bit his frustration with those 'idiot liberals' that are hurting us and not helping us, by being so closed minded, irrational and stubborn. I wouldn't say he blew up either. I think if he blew up at them it would've been far worse. But he most definitely let some frustration show and in my opinion it was justified based on who he was dealing with.

[Jonathan50]

113. I would have been far more impressed

Had Obey been blunt with the Repubs and called them "idiot conservatives".

[leftstreet]

114. Bullshit

Read the transcript

They weren't "closed minded" they just didn't understand how shoveling more $$ to the Bush administration in a supplemental was somehow going to end the war!

99.9% of Obey's constituents wouldn't have understood it either.

[ConsAreLiars]

115. Thanks for this example of either/or thinking.

You support your mentors well. "With us or against us" and "divide and conquer." Good work. You should be proud. You serve my enemy well.

[Skittles]

116. oh yeah, I respect people who call me an idiot

absolutely

[Jonathan50]

117. OPERATIONMINDCRIME

Do you or do you not wish to continue our debate?

If not then I shall have to assume that you think I will prevail.

[walldude]

118. I posted Obey's voting record twice already

once in the initial thread and once on a subsequent thread. He's at best a moderate, Pro-life, anti-gay marriage. The reason I posted it was because he voted yes on the Patriot Act in 2001 and he hadn't even read the bill. Which gave him little room to call people idiots for not knowing what was in his bill. At least the guy apologized. Let's hope he doesn't make the same mistake with someone more informed than him, he could come out looking like more of an ass than he did.