It is never right to call a mother who is trying to bring her son home from a war an "idiot liberal"

[Bjorn Against]

Most of us can probably agree that David Obey's record in Congress has been quite good overall, but today I think he really crossed a line.

A woman very politely asked him some questions, and for it she got called an "idiot liberal" and had it suggested to her she was smoking something illegal because she wanted to end funding for this war. She just wanted to bring her son who is risking death in an illegal and immoral war home. She was doing a good mother should do, she was standing up for her son's safety.

Now we can debate how good her knowledge of house rules are, but that is really irrelevant here. Citizens of this country are supposed to have the right to ask questions of our legislators. Yes that means that Congress members who generally support our position are going to be taken to task once in a while. If they feel that the people do not have a firm grasp of how the system works they certainly have the right to explain themselves, but calling a mother whose child is facing a life and death situation an "idiot liberal" is wrong.

If a Republican did this every member of DU would be outraged. We would not be attacking the person who asked the question or the person who videotaped it, we would be going after the Republican and rightfully so. We need to hold our own people to the same standards. We should not attack a woman who is obviously desperate to bring her son home from this illegal war just because she may not know the House rules.

I am not going to defend anyone who calls a mother trying to protect her son an "idiot liberal", I don't care what that persons past record is you do not attack a mother who is desperate to save her child's life like Obey did.

Let us hold our own representatives to the same standards we would hold Republicans, let us treat the mother's who are trying to protect their children with some respect.

[DemKR]

1. K&R

[OhioChick]

2. Agreed. n/t

[leftchick]

3. yes indeed. Simply put....

he was an asshole. Worse than any so called "idiot liberal". I am so disgusted.

[sandnsea]

4. I agree on that point

He was wrong to say those things to her, even if he was 100% right in his views. He lost his cool and I would like to see him apologize and invite her back and have a sit down to make her case to a cross section of the House. It might be instructive across the board.

[karlrschneider]

5. Her son is not now in Iraq. She went after the wrong congressman and I don't blame

him for being pissed off. Read this:
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/obey-berates-woman-over-war-funding-later-apologizes-2007-03-09.html

[Bjorn Against]

9. There is no "wrong congressman" to go after...

Every single one of our members of Congress needs to be pressured, this mother was simply asking one of them to vote against war funding. If that is what she believes would be the best way to end the war she has every right to ask a member of Congress to stop that funding. If you watch the video it is quite obvious that Obey was not planning on voting against the war funding yet he opposes the war. That makes him the ideal Congressperson to go after because it may seem possible to some that he could be convinced to vote against the funding. And notice in the video that she was very polite, she did not attack him at all.

And I apologize for the mistake of suggesting her son is in Iraq now, but he has been there and it looks like he is going to be sent back again so you can not possibly say her concern is not legitimate.

[karlrschneider]

12. If Congress cuts off all funding instantly, we STILL have 100,000+ troops

there. Congress cannot order them back, only the Chickenshit Chimp in Chief can do it and he ain't about to.
Obey wants to stop the "war" (occupation), a good thing but he wants our troops to keep eating as long as they're
forced to stay over there (another good thing.)

Mr. Obey simply attempted to explain reality to this lady and she wasn't able to grasp it. What exactly would you suggest he actually DO? I'm sure we would all love to hear a simple solution to a complex problem.

[Bjorn Against]

19. Here is exactly what he should do...

He should explain his position calmly and accurately and listen to this grieving mother with some respect. What he should not do is call that grieving mother a liberal idiot.

[karlrschneider]

27. Grieving? For what? Sorry I don't get that part.

:eyes:

[Bjorn Against]

28. I don't think you would be rolling your eyes if your child was being sent off to die

[karlrschneider]

35. I'm only interested in truth and facts. IPhony ideaology doesn't cut any mustard with me

no matter which of the political spectrum it comes from. Bullshit is bullshit and it NEVER smells like a rose.

Nobody around here is any more against the illegal, immoral occupation of Iraq than I. Guaranteed.

What is obvious is that a woman with a legitimate grievance stalked a member of Congress who is trying his damndest to STOP this debacle and armed with an accomplice with a hidden camera, snookered him into an impromptu encounter in order to nab him with 'damning evidence' that he isn't doing enough when all the time he has been ON HER SIDE. Regardless of her passion and motive, just what the fuck good was she imagining to accomplish? It makes no goddamn sense. She wasted HER time and wasted HIS time bitching about something he was already
trying his best to do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Oh I get it

Since she was talking to the wrong congressman, it was okay for him to call her an idiot liberal. And accusing her of smoking something illegal was okay too. Wow thank you so much for helping me understand this. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[karlrschneider]

47. How gratifying to discover you are actually educable.

:D

[Bjorn Against]

51. How dare you call a mother's concern for her son "phony ideology"

I am sorry but I find your argument disgusting. I can guarantee you this mother's concern for her son is certainly not phony in any way.

You may agree Obey, but the fact is the man is going to vote for a bill she wants him to vote against. They are not on the same side on this issue, and she has the right to state her position to him. She stated that position very respectfully without raising her voice or making accusations, and Obey did not show her any sympathy for her son and he called her an idiot for voicing her concerns. I can not defend that and I don't know how you can either. I am sure if a Republican called a mother whose son was being sent into harms way a liberal idiot you would be outraged, it seems you would be able to hold our own people to at least the same standards as you would hold Republicans.

[karlrschneider]

59. I want everyone in public service held to the exact same standards.

If he votes to cut off funding, our troops are STUCK there unless the Chimp in Chief brings them home. How confident are YOU he will do that? Not much? Me neither. What is YOUR solution? You want it both ways but both ways are logically, politically, militarily and financially exclusive. So let's have YOUR magic wand...how does it work?

[Bjorn Against]

61. I never claimed to have a magic wand...

I only said it was wrong to call a mother whose son's life is being threatened an "idiot liberal". Why is that so difficult to understand?

[karlrschneider]

64. Because she is an idiot liberal.

How is that concept so impossible for you to appreciate?
edit: come to think, how do we know she's even a liberal at all?

[Bjorn Against]

68. Well I never called her an "idiot liberal"

You did, so I would be interested to know how you can call her such a thing when you even admit that you don't know she is a liberal.

I am sorry but I think it is a lot more idiotic to claim that there is something wrong with talking to a member of Congress than it is for a mother to bring her concerns about her son and others like him to someone who might be able to help.

[karlrschneider]

70. I think we are done with this conversation. Have a fabulous evening.

:D

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Cloy leaves for his third tour in 2 weeks.

He has PTSD and has been trying to get help for that from the VA for 18 months. He has attempted suicide. Now he gets to go back to the war zone for the third time.

[maggiegault]

105. My Brother Is Over There Right Now...

...and he is just a totally different person now. It has really become an issue in his marriage. He has two small children at home, too. It just seems like he cannot relate to anything or anyone anymore.

A broken person.

I don't know what to say to you, other than I am sickened and saddened about Cloy's situation. Support our troops, indeed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. I will keep your brother in my prayers

This is just the worst military situation this country has ever been in.

[patrice]

53. Yippeeee! That's the stuff I've been saying on the phone and in my letters:

"Obey’s proposed supplemental bill, entitled the “U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans’ Health and Iraq Accountability Act,” expands funding for veterans’ health care and hospitals and stipulates that the Bush administration must meet standards of troop readiness before deployment to Iraq. It also states that the Iraqi government must meet Bush’s benchmarks for reform in order for our troops to remain in the region. The legislation sets a deadline for complete withdrawal from Iraq by Sept. 8, 2008, but also states that troops would be withdrawn earlier if Iraqi government fails to satisfy Bush’s benchmarks."

I figured it out from reading DU and The Friends Committee on National Legislation and listening to AAR.

[kiteinthewind]

6. Thank you. Definately out of line. He is a Representative, not a King.

And she is the mother of a soldier getting ready to go back to Iraq for a third freaking time. I can only imagine how she feels.

:thumbsup:

[Fridays Child]

7. I lost respect for him.

And I had a hard time hearing everything he said but didn't he tell her that he was introducing legislation to end the war? If he said that, is it even true?

After I saw that, I looked up his contributors on opensecrets.org. He does okay by some of the defense contractors, for whatever it's worth (I'm sure other Dems do, too).

[Mojambo]

8. You got it right.

It wasn't a very distinguished way to act, particularly for a Representative.

[karlrschneider]

14. It's funny, a little, how DU in general keeps saying "Let's take off the gloves

and fight fire with fire...give the bastards a dose of their own medicine" and when someone who really IS on our side
gets a little testy with an uninformed constituent, suddenly he's a bad guy. Jeezusfuckingchrist.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. He can get a little testy all he wants on the floor of the House

But he needs to learn to show more respect to a U.S. taxpayer who is concerned about her son being sent to Iraq for the THIRD time.

[Mojambo]

22. Getting testy and flat out insulting someone are two very different things.

I hope most people here on DU can understand that.

[karlrschneider]

25. He was being badgered in an impromptu encounter by a woman with

legitimate concerns (and obviously a secret camera) who wanted everything and right fucking now. She has a right to be outraged but she shouldn't be targeting someone who's 100% on our side. That's just stupid.

[Mojambo]

30. Even if all of what you say is true

That still doesn't make his response anywhere near appropriate.

He should apologize.

[DURHAM D]

36. He did - immediately. Geez ! n/t

[karlrschneider]

37. If you knew how to Google, you would have discovered he did.

:eyes:

[Mojambo]

45. Oh okay. This thread must be about the apologists for his behavior then.

I got it. I'm all caught up.

And I didn't even have to Google it!

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Yeah I just figure it out too

1. It's not okay for citizens to talk to their representatives

2. It's okay for a US congressman to call a military mom an "idiot liberal"

3. All "idiot liberals" smoke illegal drugs

[karlrschneider]

57. What do you think he SHOULD have said?

"Oh, yes, ma'am, I will do all that first thing in the morning"?

He's trying to STOP this insane bogus war and gets hectored by some woman who's pissed off because he hasn't actually DONE it?

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Mojambo]

60. I don't think expecting him to NOT hurl insults is a particularly tough standard

Do you?

[karlrschneider]

63. If you have ever talked with a rightwinger, you probably know it is unavoidable

at some point. I sympathize with this lady but she was egregiously misinformed and was haranguing the wrong guy.

[Mojambo]

67. I have talked to many rightwingers and it isn't unavoidable.

And your impression of what she was doing (haranguing, harrassing, hectoring, badgering etc...) is way off, IMO.

[karlrschneider]

75. Yeah, you're right. I should've said "unnecessarily agressive"

My bad.

[patrice]

73. He might have explained a little better.

"We can't "defund" because we will never have the votes for it. We can't get the votes because defunding affects all of these other things that you're asking for. We're doing it this way ______________________________, because we stand a chance of getting the votes necessary to pass it."

There had been more than one encounter between them?

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. She was talking to him, not badgering him

[karlrschneider]

42. ROTFLMGDAO

Yeah, right.....
She's the type who won't take 'yes' for an answer.
:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. She's the type who will get this war ended

[karlrschneider]

48. Yeah, by secretly videotaping someone who already IS trying to end it.

How very clever.

[Malikshah]

83. Ah-- fearing for a son's life is stupid? Damn. Wow.

Love that compassion.

What's next? Chess game allegories?

Or the poor widdle reppie who got cornered? Sorry-- I don't care if it's Mother Frikkin Theresa-- this guy gets paid the bucks, gets the pension, gets the benefits-- he is a Public Servant who along with the others gets more than enough out of the job.

Is he getting shot at? No.
Is he worrying about RPGs? Shrapnel? No.

He needs to make a public apology to her and suck it up and deal.

He has got NOTHING to worry about in comparison to her. Nothing at all. He should be ashamed of himself.

[karlrschneider]

88. BS. He's doing more than 400 or so other congresscritters to end this crap.

He can't do it alone and when someone insists he could or should, he has every right to be offended. Why the fuck is this Tina person badgering him instead of those who are chickenshit cowards on the issue? It just does not make any sense.

[Malikshah]

94. It is called Sucking it Up and Dealing. It is not about him--and if

he cannot handle people badgering him, he needs to find another line of work.

It is quite clear that he does not have the ability to make unilateral decisions on the issues at hand--no one person in the govt has that. He *does*, however, have the ability to take in what he is being given with professionalism and passing it on to others. It is called leadership and managerial capacity-- Obey needs to take a course in that.

It is called Service. Basic skills that any Front Desk clerk must have in order to be a success. You take the crap that is thrown at you-- the calls for results that you on your own cannot bring about--heck you may not even have the authority to get the job done--but you *do* take the crap and pass the information along without losing it and throwing around useless damaging epithets.

Did he lose it? Yup.

Is he human? Yup.

Should he apologize? You betcha.

Should he learn from his mistake? Should he make amends and affect change by letting others know that the people who *are* making the sacrifices are demanding answers--you know-- the people of the country he represents...? Damn straight.

It is called leading. It is called doing his job.

[patrice]

58. That's because people think they're more important than the goal

that we share with guys like Obey. He said it wrong, but he IS right. That's what should be more important than anything else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Patrice, Tina is good friends with many of us here in KC

People you know well LOVE this woman. Ira has been trying to get her to come be a speaker at a Sunday event for over 6 months now. She and her son were very active participants in our protest when bush was here in September. If you had come, you would have met her and Cloy.

And now you dare to come on here and accuse her of having an ego????

You have no idea what you are talking about and you just slammed a woman who has done more to help OUR peace movement than you and I and every single one of us put together here in KC has done.

What a stupid stupid thing to say. Maybe one day you will understand the mistake you have made. I hope so.

[and-justice-for-all]

10. Thats the Rethug mentality right there I am sorry to say...

Thats a primary example of what those moron repugs think of people who exercise what is truly patriotic: DISSENT.

Repthugs do not give a fuck about the common man or their welfare. What matters most to rethug idiots is their Corperate friends who fill their pockets with dead presidents, they do not care what the people want, all that matters is what the Corperations want. The Middle East is a Corperate Sponsered War mongering campaign lead by Haliburton...

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. It is not right to call your boss an idiot liberal

Obey works for

US

.

[karlrschneider]

17. Technically, he works for Wisconsinites. That's his job according to the Constitution.

Are you under the impression he's -not-, however, working for Democrats in general?

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. I am under the impression that he was an asshole to a military mom

Honestly, I could care what party he belongs to.

[karlrschneider]

24. She could have tried for an appointment instead of badgering him in the hallway

and secretly videotaping the "meeting." That smacks of doulbe-dealing and honestly, I could NOT care less what connection she has with the military. The fact is, Obey is trying to Stop this debacle...she attacked the wrong guy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. And you are sure she has had no appointment with him? You are positive?

How do you know?

You don't.

And she has.

More than one appointment.

[karlrschneider]

52. The dates and times of which you obviously have noted. Right?

Hell, no I DON'T know whether she did or not and I really don't think you do either. Right?
You can't seem to produce an answer to this: What exactly do you think he SHOULD have said to her? You seem to have the inside track on this clandestine encounter...

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Yes I do know for a fact she has met with him

Tina is a very good friend of mine. She has been in DC since Jan 29 lobbying Congress. She sends out regular email updates. So I could give you the exact date.

As far as what he should have said to her, I am more concerned about what he should NOT have said. He should not have called her an idiot liberal and he should not have accused her of smoking something illegal. So it really doesn't matter how many times she has talked to him.

[karlrschneider]

81. I see. So she has been haranguing him for some time now. That makes sense.

He obviously got tired of being jacked up by the same stupid woman who can't take yes for an answer. She is not playing with a full deck.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. And you are being an ass

You don't have one ten millionth of the class and dignity Tina Richards has.

[karlrschneider]

87. Not one ten millionth? Oh, dear, I am desiccated with mortification!

I watched the video 4 times. If that is class and dignity, I'm the King of Persia. You are in favor of someone sneaking in a hidden camera to make video of a furtive encounter with a member of congress? Call Alberto Gonzalez, he'd love to have you on his team.

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. It's class to call someone an idiot liberal and to accuse them of smoking

something illegal?

That is CLASS in your world?

Good grief. What repulsive values you must have.

[tandot]

23. I posted this on another thread:

Imagine you are an employee who is working as hard as possible to achieve your company's goal. However, some of your colleagues are lazy SOBs who do nothing or actively prevent you from doing your job better. And, your boss (if he is not a complete idiot) is aware of who is at fault. How would you feel if your employer would constantly go to you and criticize you for doing a piss-poor job while he/she ignores the lazy SOBs who are actually at fault for the whole mess?

How long would it take you to lose your cool and to say something nasty or quit?

Why not spend the energy on people who are at fault? Why pester people who are already on our side?

another DUer just said it perfectly:

"...it's about changing the minds that need to be changed, not the ones already on our side"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=379929&mesg_id=380064

I feel sorry for the mom, but she is focusing on the wrong people.

[Bjorn Against]

26. It is not for you to decide who she should focus on...

People have the right to speak to members of Congress, and she was very polite to him. The fact is that he was planning on voting for the funding for this war, and this mother wanted him to vote differently. Why does she not have the right to ask him if he would consider changing his vote?

You may personally agree with Obey on his position on the war, but this woman obviously has a difference of opinion. That does not make her a "liberal idiot", it makes her a mother who is only trying to do what is best for her son.

[tandot]

33. How is focusing on Obey best for her son? He is already on her side.

She was "polite to him" ??? Really? I saw someone who was cornered and pestered. Of course it is her decision on whom to focus her energy and time. However, what was she expecting from him? Her decision to harass someone who is anti-war and is already fighting hard to stop this fucking war was idiotic. Sorry. To corner him in that way and to film the whole deal is even more idiotic.

Why not do this to a pro-war Republican?

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. SHE HAS TALKED TO PRO-WAR REPUBLICANS

Tina has been at this for 4 years +. She has probably talked to EVERY representative in DC. She has most definitely talked to republicans. She talked to them first, since they were the majority party.

[karlrschneider]

43. And suddenly she decided to harass ANTI-war Democrats?

She must be smoking something illegal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. This is about WAR and DEATH and ABUSING our military

It's not about partisan politics.

[karlrschneider]

Oh, dear. If you don't think it's partisan politics you must be posting from

Tau Ceti.

:eyes:

[tandot]

50. Well, it didn't make news. Did she tape it and release it to the press?

What was she expecting from Obey? What more can he do?

I understand the frustration, but this didn't help.

[patrice]

62. It sounded to me like she was working off of one talking point,

"Defund the war" and couldn't think in any other terms about what is actually going on and how it might work.

[karlrschneider]

66. And that's the crux of the matter. A real genuine 'defunding' could actually make it impossible

to get our troops OUT of there. Well, those without VISA cards, maybe...
:eyes:

[kiteinthewind]

112. Yes, patrice, she only has one talking point in the FOUR years she has been

working to end this war. Just jump right in there and start attacking. That seems to be something you're good at. I am so disappointed in narrow minded people.
:eyes:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=382789&mesg_id=383615

[patrice]

128. Attacking? And what do you call what you just did to me?

Search my user name and count the number of times I've EVER attacked anyone.

If you do that search, you might also notice that I don't gossip about other members. If I have a problem I take it to the person I am having the problem with. Some people don't like that.

[Bjorn Against]

40. She did not corner him, she simply asked him a question

That is her right as a citizen to do, Obey could have moved on but he chose to attack her instead. She was polite, she did not raise her voice a single time nor did she ask any accusatory questions. Because Obey is planning to vote for more funding for the war he is not on her side for this particular vote and she has every right to challenge him.

[Cha]

13. Absolutely!

Show some respect for the mothers of the cannon fodder over there in I-raq!

[glitch]

16. What made him assume she was a liberal? Plenty of moderates and even conservatives

are against the war now. Was she wearing birkenstocks?

[Rex]

21. Even a 'good' person can be ignorant of certain things.

Sounds like someone told him to say it and like an idiot, he did. :eyes:

[City Lights]

29. Nicely said!

:thumbsup:

Recommending.

[Pastiche423]

32. There is no reason, whatsoever

for any representative to call a taxpaying citizen a "liberal idiot".

NONE!

[karlrschneider]

55. Would it be okay for him to call a pro-war constituent a conservative idiot?

Just wondering.

[Pastiche423]

74. Nope

[karlrschneider]

79. Not all DUers would agree with you. I do.

...

[Danger Mouse]

100. Many DUers would have no problem with it if he did that.

Double standards can be fun for us liberals, too :D

[BlooInBloo]

38. Transcript please? What someone says they said is NEVER as good as what they said, after all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Video:

http://grassrootsamerica4us.org/

[BlooInBloo]

65. Thank you - am drinking now, so it's prolly best for me to let it go til tomorrow :)

[Synnical]

77. Wow. I just watched Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939)

This past week-end and I'm speechless. Ah, for one Jeff Smith. How I miss Senator Wellstone, and adore Kucinich.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[KingofNewOrleans]

56. This is a transcript zulchzulu posted over in GDP

Scene: Woman approaches Obey as he tries to enter his office.

Woman: I left a poem that my son had wrote (indeciperable) and um, I was wondering if you had ever gotten to (indeciperable) read it. He's a United States Marine who has done two tours in Iraq and was going to be deployed for a third tour.

David Obey: I honestly don't know about the I'm so buried in appropriations bills and get to my office about ten minutes a day. I've seen very limited (indeciperable)...

Woman: OK, well it was because, uh, my son has suffered from PTDS (post-traumatic distress syndrome) and um...

David Obey: Let's take a look... (pointing to office)

Woman: He's attempted suicide attempts and tried to get help through the VA and it took us 6 months to get to his first appointment with the VA and it sounds like with the ten minutes (indeciperable) to conditions but he was able to go to four years with the Marines, two deployments with Iraq...honorable discharge and (indeciperable) citation and he feels forgot and now he needs help with the VA (indeciperable)

David Obey: Did you hear what happened with the hearing today (indeciperable) and it's a disgrace (?)
with the military screwing guys (indeciperable)...the Washington Post report has...

Woman: I've been talking about this for a year now and nobody appears to be paying much attention...

David Obey: Well, the good news is we've been able to (indeciperable) and now people are beginning to pay attention.

Woman: But...then what about the..um, why are you going to be voting against the Supplemental...

David Obey: Absolutely not... I'm the sponsor of the Supplemental of this bill...

Woman: With the...um..uh...to continue the war?

David Obey: (shakes head) It doesn't... the President wants to continue the war...we're trying to use the Supplemental to end the war... you can't end the war if you are going against the Supplemental... it's time you idiot liberals understand that...there's a hell of a difference between helping the troops and continuing the war.... I'm not going to cut funds for body armor, stop funding for veterans hospitals...you're not going to deny funding for benefits in veterans hospitals...so you can help people who've got medical problems....that's what you do if you if you vote against that bill.

Woman: There should be enough money over there for the regular defense bills...

David Obey: There isn't.

Woman: ...without continuing the funding for the war...

David Obey: There isn't... there isn't... that's not the way it works... a regular defense bill pays for a standing army... but it doesn't pay for fees repairing costs... we're going to add over a billion dollars more to what the president is asking for...to exactly try to fix some of the problems you are talking about. How the hell do you get money for the hospitals if you don't provide the money for it?

Woman: Well then, are you going to be in support of the... um...

David Obey: I hate the war! (loudly) I voted against it to start with...I was the first guy in Congress to call for Rumsfeld's resignation...but we don't have the votes to defund the war and we shouldn't because that also means we defund everything you've got to help the guys that are victims of the war.

Woman: Well, there is...this amendment to the supplemental that to fully fund the withdraw of the troops...

David Obey: That doesn't make sense.

Woman: Well, the funds...

David Obey: It doesn't work that way. The language we have in the resolution ends the authority for the war (emphatic). It makes it illegal to proceed with the war. They don't have to fund something if the war doesn't exist.

(3:29)

Woman: Oh! I didn't know that was in the....

David Obey: That's the problem... that's the problem. Liberal groups are jumping around without knowing what the hell is in the bill. We don't have to cut off funds for an activity that is no longer legal.

(Pause)

Woman: And they are approaching that with...

David Obey: We're shutting it off.

Man: What about the Church Amendment in the Vietnam War...was it '72...'73...

David Obey: It took us 31 different efforts to get there. I was here for that.

Man: Yeah, I know.... OK...

David Obey: I know what the hell I'm talking about.

Man: Did it help win the ground war in Vietnam?

David Obey: No, it didn't. The political pressure on the administration finally put an end to the war. The amendment that finally ended the funding was the Adolb(?) Amendment. I was a sponsor of the amendment. (Note: this may be in reference to the 1973 War Powers Resolution)

Man: So if you pass the resolution, isn't he still the Commander In Chief?

David Obey: We don't have the votes to pass it! We couldn't even get votes to pass a non-binding resolution one week ago. How the hell do you think we're going to get the votes to cut off the war?

Man: You stop the funding...

David Obey: How about if you don't have the votes? It takes 211 votes...

Man: You filibuster the supplemental request...

David Obey: There is no filibuster in the House. (Duh!)

Man: Well, in the Senate they could do it...

David Obey: (leaving) I'm sorry... no, I'm not going to vote for it. I'm the sponsor of the bill that's going to be on the floor...(emphatically) That bill ends the war! If that's good enough for you, then you're smoking something illegal..

Man: I... no, I'm not, sir.

David Obey: (offscreen): You've got your facts screwed up.

Woman: Can we...

Man: Can't we stop funding the war?

David Obey: (back onscreen): We don't have the votes! (opening coat) Do you see a magic wand in my pocket?

Man: No.

David Obey: (closes jacket): How the hell are we going to get the votes for it? We ain't got the votes for it. We do have the votes if you guys quit screwing it up...we do have the votes to end the legal authority for the war...that's the same as defunding it...

Man: We can debate...

David Obey: (leaving and entering office) Goodbye... (shuts door)

[orwell]

69. Thanks...

...for posting the transcript.

Obey is clearly frustrated. This woman was respectful, righteously concerned, and far more knowledgeable than 99% of her fellow "citizens." Obey's comment of "idiot liberal" was out of line, and clearly borne of frustration.

It's a sad state of affairs that the Bush regime and its legions of RW shills have so fouled the public discourse that two decent people, clearly on the same side, have been reduced to directing their anger and frustration at each other instead of the real enemy, the out of control US National Security State and the well-heeled elites that profit from the blood and sorrow.

[karlrschneider]

76. "far more knowledgable"???? She didn't appear to know that Obey is trying

to get our troops OUT of the qWagmire. I ABSOLUTELY agree with her outrage...the problem is that she wasted HER time and HIS also, complaining to the wrong guy! Jeezus, why is this so hard to grasp?

[KingofNewOrleans]

80. Hard to get around the camera and her doing the TV circuit

Clearly, they intended to confront Obey and make news. Why they chose Obey as the target baffles me. I certainly wouldn't put her in the top 1% either, if she (and the camera dude) were debating Obey, they lost badly.

[blondeatlast]

101. That's the probklem I have with all of this. If she's talked to the "pro-war Rs"

as someone claimed upthread, where were the cameras then?

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. The question is why was the media not interested in those videos?

Tina has video taped many other meetings with congress critters. More republics than Dems. But the media was only interested in THIS video. Kinda makes you wanna go hmmmm.

I just went to breakfast with my Dem congressman. He said he turned down 4 interviews yesterday, with the NY Times, the Wash Post and even a 10 minute on air video interview with ABC. Why did he turn them down? He said because the media is looking hard for evidence of a split in the Dem leadership.

So of course they aren't interested in any of Tina's videos of republic congress reps.

[blondeatlast]

116. That's kind of what I was thinking. Funny how the altercation with the

demonstrably anti-war Dem gets the air play and face time.

When this great nation rattles her last breath, will the press finally be shamed? I doubt it.

[Orangepeel]

124. she should put them on youtube n/t

[tandot]

72. She was obviously frustrated and desperate to help her son.

And Obey was frustrated that he and Democrats still not have enough power to change it right now.

We have to focus on the people who can help bringing the troops back. Focus on the people who are still pro-war.

[patrice]

78. He IS confusing and she is incoherent.

I heard a couple of weeks ago that talking about "defunding" is absurdly ir-relevant. Doesn't give him the right to call her an idiot, though.

Had they had more than one encounter and he had explained it before?

[Synnical]

84. Incoherent?

I think not, at all.

[karlrschneider]

89. Well, not all of us are conversant in gibberish.

:eyes:

[patrice]

90. We disagree.

So . . . ?

Am I supposed to attack you or criticize you or something?

[mockmonkey]

113. Problem with the transcript

It says "it's time you idiot liberals understand that." He NEVER said that, he said "It's time THESE idiot liberals understand that."

Check out the video yourself. At the 4:10 mark.

http://grassrootsamerica4us.org/

Can we at least get the quotes right?

Obey is a DAMN FINE STRAIGHT TALKING DEMOCRAT. I question this whole thing.


*corrected because it wasn't your transcript error, but from a GDP source*

[Madspirit]

85. Two Frustrated People

...both on the correct side.

Let's get back to attacking Republicans and let's cut these two good humans a break.

Just an idea.
Lee

[Mabus]

114. "Two Frustrated People" - good call

It happens here a lot too. There are a lot of threads where people concur about a conclusion or result but differ as to get there. Some disagreements are more vehement than others and the end result is people ending up talking past each other and only half listening to the other side. Some people are convinced that they're course of action is the only correct one that they would rather go to their graves than try to see it from someone else's perspective.

With all that said, my gut reaction is to stick-up for Tina because I understand where she is coming from. I met Tina and Cloy back in October. Tina was the one who told me about the Michael J. Fox ads for Claire McCaskill. She had gotten a sneak preview at it and she told us it was a powerful ad that would probably change the tide in Claire's favor. Tina was right. It was during the course of that evening when the topic of Cloy's redeployment came up. Cloy had been there most of the evening but he sat off to the side. His chair was near the front door but pushed back just far enough that he was out of the way. Actually now that I think about it, he was nestled between the front door and one of the front windows. He stayed on the periphery of the main crowd and didn't engage people very much. Whenever someone new came in the house Cloy retreated farther away from other people.

At one point, Cloy got up and went outside to smoke a cigarette and that was when Tina told us about Cloy being redeployed. IIRC, he had already gotten his orders. She told us the problems they were having getting him care through the VA and that he was suicidal. What struck me about that conversation was I lost a friend who had multiple deployments to Iraq. He committed suicide. He didn't want to go back. He couldn't get into the VA. He started self-medicating with large amounts of alcohol. When that didn't work he began supplementing it with over the counter medications like cough syrup and sleeping pills. From there he went out to the streets to buy pain pills and anything else he could find to numb himself. He sent his most precious belongings to my old roommate/his ex-lover and then he committed suicide on Veteran's Day in 2005. All of a sudden, it hit me, Cloy was acting like Scott right before he went on the first of many drinking binges.

Scott, who was once the sparkle to every party, had started pulling away from people. Scott was gay and most of his family, the RW compassionate Christians he grew up with rejected him. Scott's family were his friends but after he came back from his second deployment Scott had changed. This war changed him. He had nightmares and he was jumpy. He was distrustful and didn't like quick movements. Scott got rid of his cat because his nerves couldn't take it when the cat ran around the house. The cat's furtive movements totally freaked him out. He stopped answering the phone and the few times he did he was drunk out of his mind. He didn't think he was worth talking to anymore. He didn't feel like he was human anymore. He didn't talk about what he saw, heard or did while he was there very much. Most of the time it was like those periods of time didn't exist for him. But every once in a while he would talk about it and that's when his internal conflict became apparent: he was proud that he had served his county but he wasn't proud of what he had done.

Scott tried hanging himself, more than once. He slit his wrists several times. He tried to get help at the VA but was put on a waiting list. Then he got discharged but he still couldn't get help. He was unable to keep a job. He apparently couldn't take it anymore. He called his ex-lover and told him that he would like to go out to California to visit him and get his head together. Scott then packed up his valuables and told my friend he was sending them out to him. Scott was pretty vague about when he would be out there for his visit. He called my friend and made sure the packages had arrived. He then explained why he wanted his ex-lover to have the items. He took several bottles of over the counter sleeping pills, downed a couple fifths of vodka (although to be truthful there were a lot of empty vodka bottles around the house), slit his wrists and was in the process of trying to hang himself when he slipped, hit his head on a table and bled to death from the head wound.

When Cloy talked about his time in Iraq that evening, it was evident that he was very proud of having served his country, but like Scott, he wasn't particularly proud of what he had done. I saw a lot of Scott that evening in Cloy and my heart breaks when I think about it. As a result, I have a lot of empathy for Tina. I saw someone I loved (I still love Scott) go downhill mentally and physically and there was not a damned thing I could do about it.

Tina's being a mother. She wants this war to stop because she has a son who has been and will be damaged because of this war. She's doing it because she loves her son. She's doing this because she knows Cloy isn't the only one who has been affected. She's a mother who knows that her son is in a very fragile mental state and she wants to get him help rather than send him off to war again. She's doing it for all the right reasons and she's doing the best she can.

[kiteinthewind]

115. Thanks, Mabus. I guess I sort of lost it last night when people started attacking

Tina, because they have no idea the woman and mother and Patriot she is. I don't post or comment that often, but my oldest son's friend, Shawn, was killed in Iraq on Wednesday, and I am just at the end of my rope with these warmongers. I am so tired of their lame excuses. I am angry that most of them have no 'skin in the game', as someone said earlier. I am saddened when my son tells me he 'talked' to Shawn, via email, just a few days before he was killed and he told my son he thought he would be okay because while 3,100 soldiers had died that that was out of 100's of thousands that had been sent. Right? He clearly was looking at odds and hoping to reassure himself and my son. I just feel so helpless and hearing Obey lose it with Tina, which was inappropriate, even though I know he is also frustrated, and then having people on DU, people who I thought were 'liberal thinkers' with some sense of compassion and right and wrong. I don't know, I just went a little nuts. Thanks for your comments, Mabus. I know you understand.
:hug:

[Mabus]

117. I heard

and I'm so sorry. I know your son is hurting and I know you are hurting too. You know I love you and I don't want to see you hurting. I wish I could do something. I know you're still reeling from your BIL death too. I just feel so fucking helpless. :hug:


I don't think you said anything I disagree with. I also saw the comments attacking Tina and, it seemed to me, that everyone had an opinion and no one was wanting to talk about the human cost to the soldiers, their family or their friends. We all lose out. There are a lot of people coming back damaged, mentally and physically. We need to think about them and not beat each other up.

It also upset me that people were talking about Tina not knowing what was in the legislation. We know from experience that things are slipped into or taken out of bills all the time and we (the common citizen and congressional members) don't know about some of the provisions until much, much later. I remember in "Fahrenheit 9/11" more than one congress critter admitted to not reading the bills they voted on. For the most part, anytime anyone claims to know what's in every bill, I have to call bullshit. For example, if something in the supplemental bill conflicts with provisions in the main bill or other supplemental or subsequent bills, which one is to be followed? At the very least he could have offered Tina a copy of his supplemental bill so she would know what was in it instead of venting on her.

Moreover, Obey talked about public opinion being a factor in the withdrawal from Viet Nam. We have that but the White House isn't listening. Neither are many in congress, as evidenced by the lack of enough votes to get legislation passed. He's frustrated, Tina's frustrated.

I also can't support the notion being perpetrated that Tina was doing a "gotcha" moment. From what I saw the camera started with it being pointed downward on the floor. The people were walking by each other when, and this is my characterization of what I saw, Tina recognized Obey and stopped in her tracks while she was walking down the hallway. In other words, it didn't appear to me that she was laying in wait for him. Also, whoever had the camera appeared to be in the periphery of Obey's vision and the camera person adjusted the lens and had aimed the camera to capture the encounter. I don't think the camera was completely hidden from anyone's view. I don't think it the encounter was meant to be something akin to hiding the camera in hopes of provoking something. These look like ordinary people, not professionals setting someone up for a prime time expose. Did Obey know the camera was on? I don't know, has anyone asked him?

All in all, from where I sit, we are on the same side. This war is wrong and we want the troops home. That's the big picture. How people go about ending this war varies. People are doing what they can and nerves are very raw all around.

[kiteinthewind]

119. Thanks, Mabus. Helpless and Angry. That's just how I feel. Thanks for the kind words.

:pals:

[Mabus]

122. You aren't alone

I love you and I will do everything I can to help get you through this rough period you've been having. I know how it feels when the blows keep coming. I lost my grandma, an uncle and my mom within 14 months. My husband lost his dad and his mom within six months of each other. Proud lost her dad and mom too. There are days when you wonder if you should even bother getting out of bed. Every time the phone rings a little voice inside says "what now?" and you don't even what to see what's going in the world.

Hang in there. We're here for you. I'm here for you. Just remember that the best tribute we can make to those we've lost is to be the kind of friend they were to us to other people we encounter. I know what it's like reaching for the phone to call someone only to remember they aren't there to answer it. I know what it's like trying to comfort someone else in their loss when I was still feeling my own. You're a strong, decent and honorable woman and I admire you. I know you've reached me in a special way. You're a good friend and I know I can always count you. I hope you know you can count on me.

From what I've seen and experienced, Tina is very much like you and me. She's a kind, caring woman who sees someone she loves in pain and she will do anything she can to help them. She's a strong woman to speak her mind and I will continue to support her. For all she's been through I don't think Tina deserves the harsh words she's gotten from either Obey or our fellow DU'ers. She's trying to help, she's not part of the problem. In many ways, she's working her ass off to be part of the solution. So are you. :hug:

[Jcrowley]

86. K&R n/t

[patrice]

91. As usual everything is about Us vs. Them, instead of what to do about Iraq.

People are busy scoring points for their chosen side instead of trying to figure out from what happened what we should do to keep it from happening again.

Of course, it's always more important to find fault and punish others than it is to solve problems that both sides create. Obey disrespected her by calling her a liberal idiot. She disrespected him by not knowing enough about what he was doing and what was going on to do what she was doing more effectively.

This thread makes me very sad.

[blondeatlast]

102. In this case, it's about Us vs. Us. nt

[patrice]

127. In most cases by far, it takes two to make a problem. But no one sees it that way.

It's always the other guy and "I'm offended by ___________" and " ___________ must apologize". People treasure their grudges against one another and barter them into relationships with those who share similar grudges. It's positively juvenile.

I feel very sad for Tina and her son, but it does positively no good at all for her son to disrespect Representative Obey, by not making an effort to understand what is going on.

I'm an issues person. I don't really like politics, because it runs on the personality type that agrandizes one's self, all in the name of some noble cause mind you :sarcasm:, at the expense of some "other". If it's not right when the oppo does this; it's not right when we do it.

I get real tired of all of the bickering an gossip that goes on. And when you tell folks to go to the person that is "the problem" and seek a solution, they won't do it. The conflict is too gratifying. People are way too fixated on themselves at the expense of the goal(s).

[LoZoccolo]

92. Her son being in Iraq instantly sends rays of smartness to her brain cells.

Please.

I think it's does much more honor to everyone involved in this debacle to be intellectually honest about it.

[karlrschneider]

93. Yes, let's be honest. Her son is not in Iraq.

He might be sent back but he ain't there now. But let's not get derailed by facts. :eyes:

[Jonathan50]

95. The mother has "skin in the game".

Obey does not.

Two quite different situations and Obey was the one who got testy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. Well here are the facts

for the umpteenth time:

Cloy has been on 2 tours. He goes back again in 2 weeks for a third tour.

[BluePatriot]

97. I heard he has a good voting record, etc

but that comment made him seem like an ass. I hope he gets a lot of grief from it.

:hide:

[Danger Mouse]

99. This is quite absurd.

While I agree that Obey was out of line for saying 'idiot liberals,' his sheer frustration is showing through.
I wouldn't say he 'crossed' a line. Obviously, her intention was to confront him, and the whole thing smacks of a set-up. What did she expect, then?
Obey is trying hard to help our troops. Defunding the war will NOT help them.
I think both of them were out of line, but I also think both of them are frustrated and upset. I don't really think it's a big deal.
Move along.

[mmonk]

103. You are 100% correct.

There should really be NO debate on that type of comment. It was intellectually dishonest and was an act that reveals political cowardice.

[babylonsister]

104. Thank you, MN Against Bush.

As much as I like Obey, and know his interests are the same as ours, I think he handled the whole thing poorly.
I think it'd be a great idea for him to have a sitdown with the mom, behind closed doors, to discuss and not yell or name-call.

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. Hey thanks for commenting.

Did you get to meet Tina in DC? She is AWESOME and so is her kid and I am just heartbroken that he has to go back for a THIRD tour in Iraq. I so admire what she is doing. Just imagine where we would be without Tina and Cindy and Ann Wright and so many others.

[champt10]

109. I think...

The comment was extremely unecessary. But at the same time, this woman and people like her really needed to be shouted down for once. Without the idiot liberal comment, I have no problem with what he did. THey just don't realize that we cant defund the war because of lack of votes. So why try something you know we cant do? It just seems stupid to me when anti-war protestors attack non-lieberman dems for the war, when we cannot get done what they want done.

[PassingFair]

121. You're right. There's NOTHING WE CAN DO.

We need to shut up and let Bushco
rape and pillage the Middle East
in our name.

..funded with our money.

...we now return you to your $11.05, no health care included job.

[stonebone]

111. kick

[Cleita]

118. It's not surprising. Look what they have done to Cindy Sheehan

and no one in the Washington establishment has spoken up about her mistreatment by the present administration. Look for more of this to happen to military families and parents in the future.

[mark414]

120. Rep. Obey - Support our troops, No escalation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbDPmBMzx54

[Orangepeel]

123. he spoke harshly (out of understandable frustration) and then apologized for it

it ought to be a non-incident

[Bjorn Against]

125. It would be a non-incident if he didn't have so many trying to defend him...

I accept Obey's apology, I really do. My problem is all of the people who are still defending him and attacking the mother.

The mother did nothing wrong, she every right in the world to lobby Congress to try to save the life of her son and many others like him. I find it disgusting that people on a progressive message board are defending calling mothers who are trying to stop the war "liberal idiots".

Even Obey realizes that what he said was wrong, why can't his defenders accept that it was wrong? If they just admit he a used a really bad choice of words, accept his apology and move on I would be happy. But as long as people keep defending comments and suggesting this woman really is a "liberal idiot" I feel the woman needs to be defended.

[kiteinthewind]

126. Precisely. Attacking the mother is, well, just disappointing. nt

:hi:

[patrice]

129. Attacking anyone on our side is disappointing. n/t

[omega minimo]

130. You've stated this quite clearly and still some want to spend their time attacking

and criticizing this woman.

It's amazing that even this stirs up arguments here, instead of awareness that WE are on the same side, WE are on her side and her son's side and each other's side. WE are against this war.

And we are FOR the right of citizens to lobby their representatives and FOR representatives who can do their jobs without YELLING at the people they represent.

The incessant need of some DUers to be contrary no matter what just looks self-serving. It doesn't matter what the issue is!! Happens every time.

[patrice]

131. Everyone feels bad for Tina and her son. I also feel bad for Obey

who IS one of our own and IS trying to do this thing for Tina and everyone and he needs our help and instead of help, all of this lobbying is going to waste. It would be horrible, from his perspective, to see that going on and KNOW it COULD be different if some "Liberal" groups did a better job of keeping their people up on what CAN work at the moment.

I've talked to people who consider it a matter of principle that we should demand "defunding". Personally, I don't think demanding that my dog fly will result in a flying dog.

So the question is: what enables BushCo more? People who "compromise" and do what can be done? Or people who get things so polarized, that all it takes is the slimmest margin imaginable to do things like bomb Iran? Principle is nice, but polarization is an enabler too.

[kiteinthewind]

132. I hate to see Peace activists attacked when they are working to end the war. I hate to see

friends attacked for no reason. This has happened twice too many times for me, patrice.
:evilfrown:

[patrice]

133. Not everyone is attacking. Some of us are little behind the curve.

Some people don't know either of the parties and are still just trying to figure out what happened when we get our butts kicked for trying to review the facts and balance things out a bit on BOTH sides. Because neither side wants that so it ends up with both sides saying something such as "You don't support my side."