A question about marital infidelity

[133724]

Poll question: A question about marital infidelity

If an individual lies to their spouse can they be trusted to tell the truth to the American people????

[MonkeyFunk]

1. sometimes yes

sometimes no

depends on the person and the issue. But everybody lies - about something, at some time.

The Atlantic recently had a very good article on "Why Presidents Lie"


http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200701/cannon-lying


I don't think one can make any sort of case one way or the other tying marital fidelity to public honesty.

Nixon and W. didn't cheat on their wives. FDR, Kennedy, Clinton did. Who would you prefer?

[ClintonTyree]

2. That we know of....

"Nixon and W. didn't cheat on their wives". I'd be terribly surprised if "W" hasn't cheated on Pickles sometime during their marriage. Bush is a serial liar. His organization has been extremely effective in covering up his past. I'm willing to bet there are countless skeletons hanging in Bush's closet of which we're not aware.
Nixon? You might have me there. The man was such a psychotic loser I can't imagine anyone having sex with him. Even Pat.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. well

I can't presume something happened just because I can imagine it. Let's agree there are no reliable reports of W. or Nixon cheating on their wives.

But it's irrelevant. The OP might as well ask "Can a person who drinks orange juice be trusted to tell the truth?"

All people lie. That's why we shouldn't trust ANYONE to tell the public the truth ALL THE TIME, and that's why we have a tri-partite government of checks and balances, why we value a free press, and why we hold regular elections. The whole system is built around mistrust.

[rebel with a cause]

14. I try not to lie, but sometimes I get my facts wrong,

or I stretch the truth. ;-) Honestly, when I do this I have to go set it straight with whom ever I talked to, and if you read my posts yesterday about my religious (guilt) upbringing you would understand what I'm saying. That is why I am not successful and why I could never go into politics.

As for the question asked, I would probably answer no, but then I expect politicians to lie and it would not affect my vote. What they lied about would be the most important question to me.

[China_cat]

5. Nixon and W. didn't cheat on their wives.

As far as we know. But they both sure screwed the country royally. And now that we know that when Reagan said he didn't remember things that he REALLY didn't remember things, maybe he can be added to that list. (We know Nancy can be added)

Eisenhower had his bit on the side. The only ones who haven't turned up as less than perfect in their marriages are Truman and Carter. And I'd be willing to bet that if someone dug deep enough, they'd find things there, too...although I'd be disappointed if anything was found on Carter.

Maybe keeping your frustrations at bay with sex keeps you from invading other countries that never did anything to you.

[rebel with a cause]

12. How do you know that Nixon and W didn't cheat?

Just because they said so? ;-)

Cheaters don't always get caught or reported.

[RB TexLa]

15. the better question is how could anyone care?

[rebel with a cause]

18. well, yeah that too. Why would anyone care.

But I do care if a candidate gives his wife divorce papers while she is in the hospital suffering from cancer, because this tells you something about their humanity. :shrug: If that makes sense.

[MonkeyFunk]

21. No one has ever made a

plausible case that either of cheated, especially Nixon.

However, that's not the point.

Great Presidents have cheated, lousy Presidents have cheated. EVERY President has lied - some more than others, and some with better reasons for doing so than others.

My point is that marital fidelity has nothing to do with whether a) A President will lie to us and b) whether that lie is for good reasons or not.

[jmowreader]

25. Hang on for a second here...

It is an article of faith here at DU that Bush is probably screwing Condoleezza Rice.

[izzie]

3. This is hard to answer. The contract between two people are

their own rules on how they will act not as how I wish them to act. Some have open rules and anything goes. I vote for a person I hope will tell me the truth not what he and his wife have said they will do in their private life. I would think their was a fault in the make up if he does not live up to the rules made with the mate, what ever they maybe. This is why I am not to unhappy with Clinton's. They both seem to understand each other and let it all go on. They must have settled this business years ago. A man who keeps getting rid of his wife because of it must have not settled this set up in her mind or his. I worry about his thinking on other things if he is so far off on his private life.

[133724]

4. this is a question

that Harry Truman raised(i think) with respect to the issue.

[Karenina]

8. You're misremembering methinks.

It was Ross Perot who said, "If his wife can't trust him, either can I"
although I don't recall the circumstances of that quip. In Truman's day such things were not discussed in polite company.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

20. A friend of mine worked for a company that was sold to Perot.

The original owner told Perot that he would not sell the company to him unless he kept the employees, all of whom had been with him for decades. Ross came and spoke to the employees and assured them and their boss that their jobs were safe. One day after the company was sold to Perot, he fired them. So I don't put any stock into what this creep has to say.

[KG]

6. fidelity is not an issue as far a veracity is concerned; goverments, and politicians, lie

it has ever been thus.

it's the blatent and cynical hypocracy of the 'family values' party that needs to be exposed.

[cgrindley]

7. On marriage

I think that until a person goes through a failing marriage, separation and divorce, they really have no idea what they're talking about. So many people have juvenile, slightly delusional ideas about marriage, when in reality, you cannot force someone to be in love with you, nor can you force them to stay in love with you. It's retarded to hold a marriage to a higher standard than you'd expect from a washing machine or a television set. It's a contract between human beings. About half of them don't work out. Who the fuck cares really? And whose business is it really?

[gollygee]

10. Personal issues are personal issues

I don't hold people's personal lives against them when I vote. It isn't an issue for me. I don't care who played around with drugs in college. I don't care how many times someone has been married or whether someone cheated. I want to know what a politician's priorities are as far as leading this country go - do we take care of corporations, or do we take care of the people? Do we enter endless unnecessary wars or do we work for peace? Do we allow people to go hungry and without medical care or do we make sure people have the things they need. Do we strengthen the economy for global corporations or for individual people and families? Give me John Kennedy over either Bush any day.

[porphyrian]

11. Other: you can trust some people in that you know you cannot trust them.

Predictability trumps trust in some relationships.

[RB TexLa]

13. Their marital infidelity is none of our business

And what they tell their spouse is none of our business.

[ComerPerro]

16. do you really trust anyone to tell the truth to the American people?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. About what? A truthful politician is an oxymoron or an ex-office holder.

In practical politics, honesty is a downright handicap.

[WinkyDink]

19. Kind of apples/oranges, no? Private conduct/desires vs. Public policy?

[133724]

22. Let me try and explain the question further...

The question is ***NOT*** did they lie to the American People AND to their spouse... can they be trusted....

The Question is If they Lied to their Spouse can they be trusted not to lie to the American People.

it is a subtle distinction but one which need to be made...

[WinkyDink]

23. Of course, the reverse might also be asked, in which case Laura

would have quite a few questions for old Bushie.

[GreenZoneLT]

24. Three letters: F.D.R.

You don't need a guy who tells the truth 100 percent of the time. You need a guy with a moral compass and a vision of where the country should go.

20th century Presidents who we know lied to their wives: Clinton, FD Roosevelt, Harding. Two out of three ain't bad.

[mmonk]

26. Everybody who never has told a lie weigh in.

[marions ghost]

27. hmmm...interesting question

MANY American politicians appear to be true to their spouses --yet they lie to the American people everyday all day-- so I have to assume there is no strong correlation.

There may even be a reverse correlation when you think about it--ie. a lot of Rethuglicans seem to pride themselves on marital fidelity, but have no compunction at all about cheating anyone else they come in contact with. Many are loyal to family and close friends, but have no boundaries beyond that.

On the other hand, politicians who have been known to cheat on their spouses have often been held up as statesmen, humanitarians, conscientious leaders, even as particularly gifted in social arenas, eg. Bill Clinton. Again, not much logical correlation.

So is there is a higher bar for political cheating than there is for marital cheating? Marital cheating is not generally considered a smart move, however forgiveable. In these days of easy divorces it often seems unnecessary, calculated to punish the partner in an immature way. Or as in the Clinton defense, a weakness due to uncontrollable sex addiction, for which there may be help. I don't think anyone would consider a tendency to marital infidelity a big plus in one's character. But it doesn't rise to the degree of criminality that is commonly associated with politics and business. How it was used politically in Clinton's case will go down in history as a true witch-hunt. In these times of "relative morality" in which every issue can be argued one way or the other, the Clinton impeachment was a spectacular abuse of power and a blatant misuse of taxpayer money.

On the other hand, can individuals who adopt the legal mentality that so many politicians work from (eg. 'it depends on what the meaning of is is?') really FACE the fact that marital infidelity constitutes lying to one's spouse and even abuse of one's spouse? I mean, when you can rationalize presenting outright lies as fact on a regular basis, does it become easier to deny basic questions of ethics? It also goes back to whether there is an ethical code that is higher than what is legal.

Bottom line--This is more a question for our whole society, rather than only for leaders. What is truth and morality today and where do you find it? One thing for sure--we can't let the fundies define it. We can't be afraid of even discussing the concept of societal ethics for fear it will encroach on our endangered sense of personal freedom. Because we do need to trust others at times.
So where do we find it?

[realisticphish]

28. Yes

Why not? apples and oranges, as someone else said.

[walldude]

29. Ed Shultz played this game on Friday, all he could talk about

was Newt Gingrich's infidelities and how he shouldn't be running for President. No mention of the fact that he was KICKED OUT OF THE HOUSE SPEAKERS SEAT FOR ETHICAL VIOLATIONS. No he should be counted out because he cheats on his wife. I don't condone cheating, but your question is loaded. Anyone who tells you they don't lie to their spouse, is lying.

[TahitiNut]

30. That's why God invented 'oversight'.

:shrug: Fuck 'trust' for politicians. Watch and participate.

[Forkboy]

31. Thye can,but it makes it a lot harder to believe them.

[LeftishBrit]

32. I don't think the two have a lot to do with each other

People can be absolutely honest and faithful within their own families, and very dishonest politically; or they can be very bad within their own families and politically honourable.

There are all sorts of complicated and intense emotions within families, which for some people may lead to much greater honesty than in public life, while for others may be a temptation to dishonesty that would not be seen in public life.

Having said all that: there are very few politicians whom I would trust to be totally honest about anything!

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

33. How about, if an individual lies to the American people, how can their spouse still trust them?

[enough already]

34. F.D.R. cheated on his wife, so did JFK

Where are you going with this one?

[H2O Man]

35. With the exception

of people who stay "married" for reasons other than a committed relationship, in my opinion, the answer is "your spouse is supposed to be your best friend. If you lie to and cheat on your best friend, you will lie to and cheat anyone and everyone else."

In the field of politics, of course, it is those who refuse to lie and cheat that really scare the system. Malcolm X is a wonderful example. He frightened everyone who considered lying and cheating a skill.