Does this sound like gender discrimination?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

Last month my seventeen yr. old grandson attended a high school party where drinking was involved. He was a passenger in the car of some friends coming home from the movies, and the boy who was driving decided on the way home to stop at a party because of a phone call he had received from another friend. The party was raided for noise, and since everyone there was underage, they were checked for alcohol. Grandson admitted to drinking one beer (because it was there). He's not a drinker and the police report said he was not drunk. Grandson was released to his mother who picked him up at the party house at midnight.

Ok...so the discrimination question. Grandson is a member of the national honor society. He has never been in any kind of trouble, and in fact is a bit of a geek. The next day he called his counselor and explained what had happened. Two weeks later after a hearing, he was thrown out of the society. But as it happened, there was a girl present at the party, also a member of the NHS, who was the same age, drank the same amount of beer, and also was not driving. She was allowed to continue her membership.

Grandson has decided not to appeal because he has already been accepted by a University in the fall with two scholarships (academic and athletic), and just wants to concentrate on finishing out his senior year, which won't be the best since he is now grounded until graduation.

I think this is a valuable life lesson, and I'm not arguing the outcome or the punishment in any way. I'm just a little curious about the fairness of the judgment, since the boy was punished and the girl was not. Any opinions?

[zanne]

1. This reminds me of my nephew...

He was kicked out of his school dorm because he had alcohol in his room. (He had told me about his parties many times before this). My sister was so upset that college administration kicked her son out of school housing and accused him of drinking, she went down to the college and staged an actual sit-in until they relented and let her little boy back in. The point is, she thought her son incapable of such behavior and didn't believe the college administration. I think that, sometimes, you just have to let the kids accept the consequences of their actions and realize that they don't have wings.

[ray of light]

2. your story doesn't say that she was arrested too.

Or if she had been given a breathelizer and had the same % as your your grandson.

It doesn't mention if your grandson or anyone near him verbally abused the officers while being arrested.

Maybe that girl left before the cops even came! Clearly, if she was arrested too, then it would be different. But if she'd been there and left before the cops came, then the school has no proof that she was involved. Also, she may have been there but not had any beer to drink. Just because someone says you have had a beer doesn't make it true. If she was arrested, I'm sure they would have the intoxication recorded for court later.

So my sense is that you're not hearing the whole story or that your grandson doesn't know the whole story.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

10. Neither was arrested. Both were released to a parent,

in our case to my daughter who was called by my grandson from the party.

[Divernan]

3. Yes, given the facts as stated, it does sound like gender discrimination.

Perhaps after graduation, he may want make a report on this to the national headquarters for the NHS. (Google them to get their website.) Article X from the NHS Constitution details the steps for dismissal. Sounds like all the procedures were followed - except the Council were hypocrites to kick one student out, but not the other. Anyway, sounds like he is a sharp kid - a scholar/athlete.

A MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION IS:
You didn't mention if he was actually arrested or not. If so, this remains a problem. For the rest of his life he will be answering questions from employers, graduate schools, etc., on application forms as to whether or not he has ever been arrested. I just had to fill out a form for grand jury duty which asked those questions. If he ever were to apply for professional licensure or certification as a lawyer, doctor, dentist, nurse, CPA, professional engineer, etc., he would be asked about a criminal record. Although he might be allowed to explain the circumstances, and still allowed to be licensed, it is an embarassing procedure.

People have been denied job opportunities & security clearances (including enlistment in the military-no big loss at the present time)for the rest of their lives because of a criminal record, even if a very minor one. The answer to this is "expungement", i.e., having the criminal record erased. Courts have great discretion in this and the practise varies from state to state.

I just had a case where a woman arrested for a domestic fight with her husband lost her security clearance and her federal job because the police arrested her and held her overnight. Although I got her record expunged, the fed. govt. will never renew her security clearance. At least now, she has a chance to get employment in the private sector. But one universal standard is that the person come before the court with a clean record of no further criminal activity for a period of (usually) a minimum of five years. If he were my grandson, I would inform him of this and tell him it is VERY important that he not be in a position where he can be picked up for underage drinking or any kind of drunken behavior or other criminal activity throughout his college years, so that he can then go in with a clean record to request an expungement before he starts looking at grad schools or employment.

And you other parents may want to inform your kids of this long term economic/employment consequence of getting arrested with a fake ID, or underage drinking, or drunken behavior in general.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

11. No arrest. Both are seventeen and both were picked up by their parents.

[Divernan]

15. That is good news. But still warn him about the consequences

of being arrested and having a criminal record, even in only for a misdemeanor.

[seabeyond]

4. i dont know that it is gender, nor does anyone else with limited info

it is certainly possible. i know i have had a lifetime of being able to get out of trouble while others doing the same will get in trouble. i think it is as much my ability to talk hard and fast and con my way out of trouble, as being a girl. though i know being a girl comes in handy also. others not of same character does not have the same abilities getting out of trouble. i am soooo good at getting out of trouble i decided decades ago i had to punish myself to learn lesson (wink) cause no one else was going to punish me.

and this in and of itself is a good lesson for your son to take with him. sounds like he will do just fine

[rebel with a cause]

74. The questions I would ask are these:

Is gender the only difference in the two youths.?
what is the economical social standing of both youth's parents?
Is there a difference in their racial make-up, is one darker in complexion than the other?
The boy is evidently an athlete, is the girl a cheerleader?

There are dozens of other questions that can be asked concerning this, that would determine why there was a difference made in the two youths and if it was just based on gender.

[iamjoy]

5. It's Hard To Tell

I think another poster said it sounds like some key facts are missing from your account - such as, did the girl leave before the police arrived or did she some how manage to avoid being checked? It sounds like you have only your grandson's account, and while I don't think there's any deliberate dishonesty here, it sounds like there may have been a lot going on and it was possible he missed something.

Also, even if she was there when the police showed up and was tested we don't know what happened after that. Maybe the NHS didn't know about her drinking. That would suck because your grandson tried to do the honest thing by being up front about what happened and got punished, where as she hid it and got away with it. OR, maybe some one at the NHS had sympathy for her, that her offense was forgivable. Maybe there's more to her story than we know. Or, maybe it was subtle and unintentional gender discrimination. You know, they saw the boy as some one who should have been responsible but the girl as a "victim." Or maybe she's just more likable. Is she particularly pretty? Studies have found that physically attractive people have more career success. Again, it's not deliberate, it's a sub-conscious process. And that's not to say that your grandson isn't attractive.

Let this be a lesson to your grandson. No, not just about the drinking, but that sometimes life is unfair. Sometimes he will be the benefit of an injustice, and sometimes a victim. It could also be a lesson about not judging, unless we really know all the facts of this girls' situation

[leftofthedial]

6. I was unaware of this until recently, but this case would be discrimination

only if your Grandson is black, muslim, gay, transgendered or a member of another Certified (TM) Minority. As a (presumably) white male, discrimination is impossible. White males own everything and rule the world, so anything is fair game if a white male is the target.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftofthedial]

9. yep. bullshit.

no discrimination here.

we're clean.

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. Hopefully, you just forgot the sarcasm smiley. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. Sometimes I wonder what your pretense is for posting here leftofthedial.

Right now is one of those times.

[sniffa]

38. gee, bitter much?

pLease don't take this as encouraging you to stop posting these sorts of things, as i savor them Like a smackhead savors dope.

feed me!

[lonestarnot]

46. screwey posting tonight.

[lonestarnot]

48. delete.

[Jamastiene]

68. Bullshit.

Men have rights and if the boy wanted to pursue it, he could win, but you sure just openly admitted which groups you hate.

BTW,
"White males own everything and rule the world" is actually for the most part true, which means if something goes wrong, you can bet white males are completely in control of the situation. That is a responsibility that comes with endowing yourselves with so much power and control. So what's your gripe, exactly? You don't like it. You have all the power. Do something about it instead of griping about and blaming minorities.

[Tsiyu]

7. Sounds that way to me

is the girl connected to someone at the school?

Of course, more facts are needed, but it doesn't sound like he is the type to smart off to cops and that this was a one-time deal. One small mistake shoud not cost him membership when another who made the same mistake is allowed to remain.

It's pathetic, how we are just unable to forgive our kids anymore. As noted about these things on one's record, one's entire future can be destroyed for one freaking beer. Since the boy is a minor, he should be okay, but other progressive nations are just laughing their asses off at us "free Americans" who want to demonize a kid for ONE BEER.

What the hell has this nation become?

I really wish i was raising my kids in a true free nation. Law enforcement and too many other adults have absolutely no mercy for kids anymore, and i know many older folks on this board drank underage and did stupid crap, but they were fortunate to come of age in a time when we didn't freak in horror when kids make mistakes.

Our young should really hate us for our hypocrisy.

Good luck to your grandson.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

16. My understanding is that all things were equal.

Neither is a smart mouth, both quite shy, in fact. And My daughter and son in law both feel that this will be a valuable lesson to him when he starts univerity in five months, two hours away from home. I was just a little disappointed that the kids were treated differently, but my grandson seems to think that gender isn't the problem. He plays soccer and the man who is the NHS counselor and who makes the ultimate decisions is the baseball coach at the school, and notorious for looking down on the kids who are on the soccer team. Indiana. Go figure. :) Teen age drinking, especially when there is driving involved, is a scary thing, and I'm glad that this can be a learning lesson. As far as the other thing goes, I guess we all have to learn at some time or other that life is not always fair and balanced.

[MedleyMisty]

12. My first thought

Is she rich or popular or related to somene in authority?

That might have more to do with it than gender. I know it would have at my high school.

[Nikki Stone1]

14. Good point. Wealth and connections are usually more crucial

The other thing I would ask is did your grandson have any previous problems with the honor society, grades, school behavior, etc.

After university graduation, no one gives a flying damn about a high school honor society. All the same, if you have time, it might be nice to investigate this. If standards were applied differently for no obvious reason, you might have a case.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

18. No previous problems whatsovever.

He recently was awarded the Dean's scholarship, so grades are great. First time screwing up, and then then I think it was more a matter of just being in the car. What kid is going to say, "No, take me home, there might be beer at the party." Once he was there, he probably should have refused a beer, but to my memory, I never did. Of course I was never in the NHS either! :)

[Nikki Stone1]

20. Then I'd say it was worth the fight

...

[ComerPerro]

17. Gender discrimination? Too little info to tell. But one thing it certainly sounds like

is elitism and the clique-centered mentality of high school. Honestly, even teachers get caught up in it. They give better treatment to certain crowds of kids than others.

[Nikki Stone1]

21. And this should be fought as well. Get in touch with the national office

Find out what the rules are.

[treestar]

19. Definitely, unless they can come up with another, valid reason

Her behavior was the same.

Though it doesn't sound like so worthy a club. What they both did was silly, but to me it is overkill to throw them out of the Honor Society for it. That's based mostly on grades and it doesn't lower their grades. Not to mention they could still have members who merely didn't get caught.

[Gormy Cuss]

22. Is it possible that she's still in NHS because her parents protested?

A private phone call may be all that it took.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

23. Maybe.

But my daughter and son in law's opinion was that, as a senior, and an about-to-be adult moving away from home, Brad should make this his responsibility. He made the initial call with the admission of his guilt, and he wrote a paper (which they asked for) giving the details of the grievance and his desired outcome. I read it and it was very honest and forthright. Maybe his parents should have spoken up, but I think they handled it the right way. And they have always been very involved in all of his activities, so it's not like the counselors don't know that. Very small school, by the way.

[Gormy Cuss]

24. I agree that it's the kid's responsibility.

If it were my kid, I'd expect him to clean up his own mess too. When I was in high school I knew kids who got away with things like this because their parents butted in and I don't think they were well served by that lesson.

[Nikki Stone1]

25. But parents have much more clout than kids at the high school level

The school will back down quicker if they think that they will have angry taxpaying, and possibly socially-connected, parents at their door.

[Colobo]

26. Very unfair decision, in my view

Given the girl is also a member and did the exact same thing as your grandson.

However, and I hate to say this, he should forget about the NHS. I hate to say it, because he is officially a victim of an injustice. However, injustices and luck are both part of life. If he is angry about this, just give him your support, and make sure he understands this won't have any negative effect on his life. He should focus on his future and on things that truly matter.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

28. He was only angry at himself for being stupid.

In truth the NHS thing was a bigger deal to his parents. Now, if they kicked him off his beloved traveling soccer team, he'd probably be on his knees begging. :)

[cgrindley]

27. Hard to tell without snitching on the girl

I guess you could complain about the unfair treatment, but perhaps she merely escaped being kicked out due to some oversight and if you make the complaint she'll get turfed.

[noamnety]

29. Missing facts

How did the NHS find out about his drinking?
How did they find out about her drinking?

[Nikki Stone1]

30. Good questions.

I still vote for parental involvement on this issue

[tinfoilinfor2005]

31. Brad called his counselor the following day and told him.

I don't know about the girl. It's a very small town and there's no way they wouldn't have found out, but I think Brad thought it was a better idea to call than to have them find out through the grapevine. Perhaps they figured that since Brad had already received his college acceptance and scholarships, this would not hurt his chances, but would be a learning experience. ? So, ok, I can accept that. I'm just not sure if the NHS wants to teach kids that it's ok to give different treatment to students based on gender or race or any other variable. Geesh. Guess I'm just one of those idiot liberals. :rofl:

[noamnety]

32. If they don't know the girl was drinking, then it ain't discrimination

That was sort of the answer I expected, btw.

[Nikki Stone1]

34. As a learning experience, it was a mixed bag. If anything, the NHS taught your grandson to hide

his foibles. Right is about "not getting caught". I would have rewarded the kid for being honest enough to come in and talk about it. That would have been a much better thing in my opinion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. Sadly an important lesson for people growing up in this society is...

..."remember the following phrase, son; 'it's my story and I'm sticking with it'".

[Nikki Stone1]

39. Isn't that the truth. Or as PG Wodehouse's Lord Emsworth would say, "Stout denial!"

Being moral isn't usually rewarded.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

41. Exactly! You've put my thoughts into words.

Thank you.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

37. Police reports were written on all present, all had imbibed,

and the NHS counselor was well aware of the details. Obviously there was some reason why they punished him and not her, but not because they weren't aware of all the facts. Neither was driving. Neither was mouthy or disrespectful. Neither was drunk, both had about the same amount to drink. Both were picked up by their parents. I think that is the only reason why my daughter would like to get involved, just simply to find out why there was different treatment. Otherwise, I know that she would like him shoulder the responsibility and the consequences, for the sake of a learning experience.

[Nikki Stone1]

40. The NHS was aware of the details about the girl too?

Did they have the police report? (Something isn't computing here)

[tinfoilinfor2005]

42. Yup.

Picture a small country town fifty miles out of Indianapolis, way out in the boonies. Everybody knows everybody and by six o'clock the next morning, everyone in town knew ALL the details. Probably most of the kids in the town were at the party.

[noamnety]

43. "the NHS counselor was well aware of the details"

It sounds like you are making some assumptions there. The police wouldn't have reported this to the school, right? The parents likely wouldn't have reported it. It doesn't matter if a police report was written, I don't believe the school has legal authority to request those, unless it involves a threat to the other students' safety.

There's a very large gap between "so-and-so went to them and directly admitted breaking the alw" and "there's a chance they might have heard something through the rumor-mill."

I think it's irresponsible and misleading to blame that on discrimination. Quite often the simplest most obvious explanation is the correct one. They were told about one offense, they weren't told about the other.

[Nikki Stone1]

45. I think your analysis is the correct one, lwfern

Rumors, no matter how credible, can be ignored. An admission from the guilty part cannot.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

49. They both went before the committee and they both told essentially

the same story. There were other people in the room who heard all of this, and within the hour it was common knowledge. This is Hooterville. Even Arnold the Pig knew the details. I don't know as I would blame it on discrimination as much as the fact that they may not have believed that a boy would have been as much an innocent victim as a girl. And I don't mean to make it sound like either of them were claiming to be innocent. Maybe that is just how the committee saw it.

[Nikki Stone1]

51. Can I make a request?

Tinfoil, every time I come back to this thread, there is some new information, and some seems to contradict the old information. So can we go logically through the steps here?

1. Incident with police occurs. Your grandson and other girl both drank one beer, both were taken into the police station, both were not charged, both were sent home with parents, and both were in the National Honor Society. Neither was arrested. There is no police report for either one. (Am I right so far?)

2. Rumors about the police raid surface. "Everybody" learns of both your grandson's and the other girl's situations. (See #1 above) You assume that members of the National Honor Society and the adults in charge of the local branch also heard.

3. Your grandson goes into the adults in charge of the National Honor Society at his high school and tells the truth about the event in #1 above. He gets kicked out of the honor society for underaged drinking.

4. The other girl involved does NOT go to the Honor Society and tell them. Because these things are unsubstantiated rumor, she is not kicked out.

This was the chain of events I saw BEFORE your last post. Now, apparently, there was a committee they both spoke in front of. Who was this committee? When did this committee meet? (between steps 2 and 3, or 3 and 4?) Did both your grandson and the other girl admit the same offense? How does this committee relate to the National Honor Society?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

59. See post #57. Also

All above is correct, except that there was a police report for both. Neither was arrested since they are both minors (and I suppose because they weren't driving and were turned over to their parents). Also, I don't know whether the girl went to the NHS. How they got the information about her is an unknown to me. She may have also called them. I just don't know. But they did have the information because she was called before the committee that held the hearing (as I stated in my OP).

I don't know exactly who was on the committee, maybe the head counselor and some teachers. Since I'm in Florida and they are in Indiana, I would have to verify this with my grandson. My understanding is that my grandson and the other girl admitted the same offense.

I'd love to tell you more, but you pretty much know exactly what I know. Sorry I came off so confusing. It made perfect sense to me! :)

[noamnety]

53. Your story seems to be changing

"there's no way they wouldn't have found out,"

"they both went before the committee"

If she went in front of the committee, it seems like that first statement would have been "yes, they knew about it because she discussed it with them in front of the committee.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

57. As I said in the OP, there was a hearing, that is where the committee

heard the details from the kids. "There's no way they wouldn't have found out" was in reference as to whether she called the counselor, as Brad did, the next day. I don't know whether she called the counselor. It isn't as complicated as I probably made it out to sound, but I've been adding to the questions and comments throughout the day as I'm in and out of work, so by now it probably sounds like an epidsode out of Law and Order. Sorry for the confusion. :)

[Nikki Stone1]

58. Ok, let me get this straight

Edited to add OP info:

There was a hearing of the NHS chapter? the high school?

And this was two weeks after the incident?

And both your grandson and the other girl testified there?

But your grandson had already talked to the counselor and admitted fault the day after the incident?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

63. Yes!

And the girl may have also called him the day after. But I don't know whether she did or didn't.

I think it took about two weeks before they had the hearing. Might have been a bit sooner, but the whole thing seemed to drag on forever, much like this thread.

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. I can't say without knowing the whole story. Perhaps this girl's parents

went to the mat for her? I don't know. But, good on your grandson for doing the right thing. Good luck to him, he sounds like a boy to really be proud of.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

47. He really is a great kid. We've always joked that he must have

been switched at birth because no one else in the family is so hard working and conscientious. But he really seems to have a good sense of himself and an easy going personality, so I think he'll learn the right thing here, and how to apply it in the future. Thanks for the good thoughts; I'll pass them his way.

[HappyWeasel]

44. Well

You may have a title 7 suit.

[HardRocker05]

50. i second 'not enough information.' nt

[Nikki Stone1]

52. This is the info thus far:

1. Incident with police occurs. Tinfoil's grandson and other girl both drank one beer, both were taken into the police station, both were not charged, both were sent home with parents, and both were in the National Honor Society. Neither was arrested. There is no police report for either one.

2. Rumors about the police raid surface. "Everybody" learns of both the grandson's and the other girl's situations. (See #1 above) Tinfoil assumes that members of the National Honor Society and the adults in charge of the local branch also heard.

3. The grandson goes into the adults in charge of the National Honor Society at his high school and tells the truth about the event in #1 above. He gets kicked out of the honor society for underaged drinking.

4. The other girl involved does NOT go to the Honor Society and tell them. Because these things are unsubstantiated rumor, she is not kicked out.


This is where it stood until tinfoil's last post where she says there was a committee meeting. I am trying to get the facts in order so we can actually help her with her question.

[noamnety]

54. There was a police report for the grandson

That was in the OP, a report saying he wasn't drunk. But I am quite confused about the "committee meeting" and how NHS heard about the girl - they heard through rumors which turned out to be the girl testified? I don't get that part at all.

[Nikki Stone1]

55. Me, neither. That's why I want to get that particular information

So

1. Incident with police occurs. Tinfoil's grandson and other girl both drank one beer, both were taken into the police station, both were not charged, both were sent home with parents, and both were in the National Honor Society. Neither was arrested. There was a police report for the grandson saying he wasn't drunk. (Was there one for the girl?)

2. Rumors about the police raid surface. "Everybody" learns of both the grandson's and the other girl's situations. (See #1 above) Tinfoil assumes that members of the National Honor Society and the adults in charge of the local branch also heard.

3. The grandson goes into the adults in charge of the National Honor Society at his high school and tells the truth about the event in #1 above. He gets kicked out of the honor society for underaged drinking.

4. The other girl involved does NOT go to the Honor Society and tell them. Because these things are unsubstantiated rumor, she is not kicked out.


Ok, let's see how the committee thing ends up fitting in.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

61. In the OP I said there was a hearing. This was where the committee

met. Should have continued with the word "hearing" in later posts, but I said "committee" instead. Is this where the confusion comes in?

I don't know how the NHS heard about the girl. She may have called them as well. I just don't have that information. But either she called them which led them to call her in for the "hearing in front of the committee", or the NHS found out about her presence at the party and asked her to come to the "hearing in front of the committee." That fact I don't know for certain.

Gees, I should have had you guys with me in Indiana last week when I was visiting. You all would have gotten to the bottom of this!

[Nikki Stone1]

66. A lot depends on what the girl did. If she sat tight and said nothing and the police report

simply said she wasn't drunk, but didn't specify any drinking--it may have just said that she was picked up at this party--she could have claimed that she wasn't drinking, or simply not admitted to it. Did the NHS have the police reports?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

60. One more time:

See post #57. Also
All above is correct, except that there was a police report for both. Neither was arrested since they are both minors (and I suppose because they weren't driving and were turned over to their parents). Also, I don't know whether the girl went to the NHS. How they got the information about her is an unknown to me. She may have also called them. I just don't know. But they did have the information because she was called before the committee that held the hearing (as I stated in my OP).

I don't know exactly who was on the committee, maybe the head counselor and some teachers. Since I'm in Florida and they are in Indiana, I would have to verify this with my grandson. My understanding is that my grandson and the other girl admitted the same offense.

I'd love to tell you more, but you pretty much know exactly what I know. Sorry I came off so confusing. It made perfect sense to me!

[Nikki Stone1]

62. OK....Here goes....

1. Incident with police occurs. Tinfoil's grandson and other girl both drank one beer, both were taken into the police station, both were not charged, both were sent home with parents, and both were in the National Honor Society. Neither was arrested. There was a police report for both the grandson and the girl saying they weren't drunk.

2. Rumors about the police raid surface overnight. "Everybody" learns of both the grandson's and the other girl's situations. (See #1 above) Tinfoil assumes that members of the National Honor Society and the adults in charge of the local branch also heard at some point.

3. The day after the incident in #1, grandson goes into the counselor at his high school and tells the truth about the event in #1 above. (We do not know if the girl did this or not)

4. Two weeks later, there is a committee meeting. We don't know if this was the honor society or not. (It was at least some high school authorities.) The girl and Tinfoil's grandson are both called upon to testify as to the events in #1. They both "essentially" told the same story.

5. Grandson is kicked out of honor society and girl is not.

Is this correct? Have I missed any details?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

64. Yes.

The hearing was held by the school's chapter of the NHS. Not sure exactly who or how many were present at the hearing, other than the chapter's "counselor" (don't know if that is the right term).

Also, the party incident: To my understanding there were a fairly large number of kids at the party and all were questioned by the police, simply for their presence and because they were minors and beer was served. There were other arrests but I don't know how many. At least one of the kids was eighteen and spent the night in jail. Only two of the kids were in the NHS. Not that this is relevant to the question of our two little angels, but simply to give you an idea of the events on the night in question. (woo hoo, don't I sound very Dragnet?)

To edit: There were other reports written on minors; not arrests, except for at least one boy who was "of age".

[Nikki Stone1]

65. OK. To answer your question, we really can't tell

Assuming this chain of events is true:

1. Incident with police occurs. Tinfoil's grandson and other girl both drank one beer, both were taken into the police station, both were not charged, both were sent home with parents, and both were in the National Honor Society. Neither was arrested. There was a police report for both the grandson and the girl saying they weren't drunk.

2. Rumors about the police raid surface overnight. "Everybody" learns of both the grandson's and the other girl's situations. (See #1 above) Tinfoil assumes that members of the National Honor Society and the adults in charge of the local branch also heard at some point.

3. The day after the incident in #1, grandson goes into the counselor at his high school and tells the truth about the event in #1 above. (We do not know if the girl did this or not)

4. Two weeks later, there is a committee meeting of the local chapter of the National Honor Society. The girl and Tinfoil's grandson are both called upon to testify as to the events in #1. They both "essentially" told the same story.

5. Grandson is kicked out of honor society and girl is not.


...we still have some unanswered questions.

a. Did the grandson and the girl do exactly the same thing at the party? Were their police reports identical?

b. Did the girl go in and speak to a school counselor or did she sit tight and not say anything?

c. Did the grandson and the girl admit to exactly the same act, drinking a beer underage, in front of the Honor Society Committee? Were there any details that differed from one another and did any of these details speak to a level of responsibility?

d. Is there any process by which the school counselor who got the grandson's confession might have had input into the NHS decision, input which might have biased the outcome?

e. Was there any input by the girl's parents that might have biased the outcome and to whom?


The case may not be as simple as discrimination. I'm not saying that it can't be. It certainly could be. But there are some unanswered questions and problems here.

FIRST: The content of the police reports might be different. The police might have taken pity on the girl for some reason, the girl might have lied to them, or maybe the girl didn't drink as much as the grandson. It's hard to tell, but any of these might have affected the police report, which in turn would have affected any decision made by the honor society. So the first question is "What did the police reports actually say?" (Did they just say that the kids were not drunk without specifying that the kids had had a beer, or was the consumed beer mentioned?) The second is " Were they identical?".

SECOND: Your grandson's admission of guilt to the counselor may have left him more vulnerable in some way, depending on the counselor's role in providing information to the NHS. The NHS might have police reports with very little on them except to say your grandson and the girl were not drunk. Your grandson may have admitted more information than the reports had on them and the counselor may have had to report it.

THIRD: The committee meeting of the NHS had testimony from your grandson and the girl. You say they said "essentially" the same thing, but there might have been some significant differences. How much beer each of them admitted to consuming is important. And, as I said before, did the police report even say they had been drinking beer, or just that they had been picked up at a party where alcohol was being consumed?

FOURTH: Was there parental input by the girl's parents? We know that your grandson's parents let him go this alone as a "lesson". Parental input is powerful at the high school level, and input by the girl's parents at any point in the process could have biased the outcome. If the parents are influential in the community, that could have had further affect.

There are too many unanswered questions to claim gender discrimination at the moment. Now, if you can show that the police reports were identical, the girl and your grandson did the exact same act, the confession to counselor did not enter into evidence at the NHS committee meeting (either officially or unofficially), the testimony was identical concerning the crucial details AND there was no parental input at any step of the way by the girl's parents, THEN I would say you had a case. But until those questions are answered, it's still pretty murky.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

67. Although I am against any type of discrimination, I don't in any way

feel as though this situation warrants a legal solution. The NHS has a set of rules for those who wish to remain as members, and Brad broke one of those rules. He really has nothing coming, and he understands that. Whether the girl was given special treatment or not, Brad would still be subject to these rules. If, as you indicate, all things being equal, the girl got special treatment, Brad would still be guilty of breaking the rules.

My question in the original post was just an opinion question as to whether it appeared that the girl may have been given special treatment, based on the facts as I knew them, and as you pointed out, many facts were absent to my knowledge. Whether she was favored due to gender or other factors, including parental involvement, or nepotism or even the color of her hair, I just don't know. But I appreciate your help in breaking this down for me, because, once again, after I've turned to my friends in DU for advice and opinions, I feel better about certain outcomes in life. Many posts later, it is clearer to me that Brad did indeed do the right thing after doing the wrong thing.

[Nikki Stone1]

71. Were you responding to my post? (Or is this to someone else?)

If the girl was given special treatment, and it can be proved, it certainly worth a complaint to the national NHS board. The problem that I pointed out is that there are still too many unanswered questions (many of which I listed) to know for sure. I would love for your grandson to be able to complain, since I support honesty and "fessing up". I taught for a lot of years and have watched kids (and their parents) lie without conscience. I am on your grandson's side in this. I just think a lot more digging would have to happen to find out if there was special treatment and where.

Good luck.

[Madspirit]

56. Not enough info

From all you told us, their course of action sounds unfortunate but we have no way of knowing their reasons. There isn't enough info. It could be gender discrimination. It could be because The Decider likes the girl and doesn't like your grandson. There is just no way of knowing without further inquiry. Your grandson should take it further and investigate.
It may have nothing to do with gender or it may.
Lee

[BlooInBloo]

69. "grounded until graduation" - bwhahaha! Aaahh - I remember those days...

[xmas74]

70. Was she detained by the police?

Maybe her family has connections w/ the town, the police dept or w/ the school.

I don't think it was gender discrimination but I'd wonder who her family knows. Things like that tend to depend on knowing the right people.

[Nikki Stone1]

72. See post #62. It outlines the major facts

..

[xmas74]

73. Saw it after I posted.

Sorry about that.