Joseph Edward Duncan sentenced to death

[pokerfan]

He took Dylan and the boy's then-8-year-old sister, Shasta, to a remote western Montana campsite where he raped, tortured and threatened them before shooting Dylan in the head and burning his body. Jurors viewed horrifying video Duncan made of him sexually abusing, torturing and hanging Dylan until the boy lost consciousness.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080827/ap_on_re_us/duncan_slayings_12">more

Thoughts?

[varkam]

1. Well, I'm against the DP. Even for Mr. Duncan.

He should spend the rest of his life in prison for what he has done. Nonetheless, I don't think we should be in the business of people.

[DrDan]

2. I am against the death penalty . . . but death is too good for this . . . scum

[TomInTib]

3. Oh, I think he is just misunderstood.

Maybe some therapy would help the poor soul.

Maybe he should get another chance.

Or maybe the fucker should be beaten to death with a very small hammer.

Yeah, that's it.

[rebel with a cause]

46. Turn him loose in the general population and he will be.

Well, he will be killed very quickly. Child rapist/killers do not survive very often or for very long in the GP. Especially if the authorities (guards) make it known who and what he is. Just what I have heard.

[Hippo_Tron]

55. He wouldn't last two seconds in the general population

[Selatius]

4. The DP is an unnecessary measure.

Once the guy has been apprehended and has been removed from the civilian population, killing him becomes unnecessary unless it can be demonstrated that no prison could hold him.

If it can be shown that he cannot be rehabilitated, then he should be consigned to prison for the rest of his days.

[tburnsten]

9. Why pay for this animal to live easy?

Granted prisons are not where anyone wants to be, but it sure beats the ground. Why should we pay for this individual's food, heat, health, dental work, and any other cost associated with a maximum security prison? I can't think of a reason, there is no reason to keep him alive, he will never get out and if he does try, he may very well be shot down in the process or hurt a guard. Why are our prison workers lives and safety less important than allowing this filth to continue consuming food and air?

[dddem]

22. I understand your sentiments,

but the fact is that it costs the state more to execute a prisoner than not. Personally, I thinks it's a greater punishment (if that's in fact your motive)to never have freedom again. Don't get me wrong, never never ever should this man enjoy freedom or see life outside of prison. But I'm against killing another human, regardless of how vile that human might be.
Peace.

[Heather MC]

69. Rope is Cheap

[spoony]

120. Life isn't.

That's why we're punishing this guy in the first place, right?

[depakid]

44. Costs more to execute a prisoner than it does a life sentence

Not that that should get in the way of Americans' lust for their pound of flesh.

[silverojo]

58. It's money well spent

When someone is this far gone, you can't take even the slightest chance of him escaping prison and unleashing his insane rage on one more innocent person.

No amount of money is too much to ensure that this animal never, ever has a chance to do something this atrocious again.

[depakid]

60. That's the American way! A pound of flesh no matter what the cost!

or whether innocent people get executed too.

Yet another of the reaons why Americans aren't respected atound the world.

[Number23]

74. Depakid,

he SMILED when the sentence was rendered. He confessed to more murders. The question of innocence is not in play here and I don't know why you're bringing it up.

Any murder is awful, but this lunatic monster killed CHILDREN. Slowly and brutally. Heaven help the child who survived her encounter with this man. I wonder if she will ever be whole again.

[depakid]

76. Put the man in prison for life- public safety problem solved

It's not like he'll be doing easy time... locked up 23 hours a day.

[Number23]

77. I don't think it's a matter of public safety

public safety problem solved

It's an attempt to punish the unpunishable, the unthinkable.

This man killed an entire family so that he could rape, torture and murder children. There are degrees of punishment, and there are degrees of crime. There are some crimes that warrant the death penalty and I'm sure that every person in that courtroom felt that this was such a time. And I agree with them fully.

[depakid]

80. Gotta have that pound of flesh

Other western nations don't have the same need for it. And they're much better for it.

Might also have something to do with why Americans have the world's largest and most expensive prison system- which in some states, costs more than higher education.

Obsession with punishment.

[Number23]

106. I have heard it all

Obsession with punishment.

Yes, because punishment is the last thing this "person" deserves, right?? Are you for real? Are you serious?

[depakid]

111. Proving my point.

You're obsessed with putting this guy to death. Which is NO DIFFERENT in the abstract from calls for draconoian mandatory sentences for all sorts of offenders in the criminal justice system.

That's why you put more people in prison per capita AND in raw numbers than any nation in the world.

[cherokeeprogressive]

108. In this case, I don't give a SHIT about other western nations' needs.

This guy needs to meet his maker sooner rather than later.

[depakid]

110. You just react viscerally-

which makes you (like most Americans) easily manipulated into policies that are detrimental to the nation.

There will always be a monster out there, whether it be a rapist murderer or and Islamofascist- or go back 170 years and was the heathen savages who needed to be punished for _________(fill in the blank).

[tburnsten]

123. viewing a rapist torturing child murderer

as the same sort of scapegoat as the native americans in centuries past shows the disconnect between what we are saying and what you are reading. I really don't think you even read the article. You probably just saw a death penalty thread and decided to use it to proselytize about how us stupid americans will never be satisfied until we execute everyone different than us.

[depakid]

135. No disconnect at all. Exact same phenomena

You either don't like hearing (and accepting it) -or you don't grasp how to think abstractly.

As I said, there will always be monsters- and there will always be public outrage- which is why enlightened nations have laws establishing bright lines against torture and execution.

[WildEyedLiberal]

151. Stop with the preachy holier than thou tripe; you look foolish

Unfortunately for you, "Americans" aren't the international pariahs you seem to think we are. People around the world hate Bush, yes, but for the most part they don't hate "Americans." What grievances people in Western Europe have against Bush are almost entirely to do with our foreign policy - in other words, it has NOTHING to do with the death penalty.

Believe it or not, when there are cases of pedophile child murderers in other countries such as the UK, people express outrage and, in many cases, say things like "I wish we had the death penalty for this scum." The visceral urge to punish a monster who is clearly guilty of a horrendous crime is in no way an "American" phenomenon. People in Europe and elsewhere aren't so much more "evolved" than the stupid Americans to the extent that they feel no anger or desire for vengeance against violent psychopaths. That their government does not legally allow for the death penalty is immaterial; you are pompously declaring that somehow other "civilized" nations have risen above even the desire for vengeance and that Americans are uniquely stupid animals who haven't, and that is a steaming load of horseshit.

I know you want to think you're intellectually and morally superior to the rest of your idiot countrymen, and that you want to idealize Europe into a blissfully progressive utopia filled with peaceful, rational ubermenschen, but your insistence on doing so only displays your own ignorance.

[tburnsten]

153. Thank you

Those were the words I was looking for.

[tburnsten]

79. Only because of the appeals process

And in the case of this character, who is without any shadow of a doubt guilty as hell, his appeals process should be cut very, very short. I think the death penalty in this case is acceptable because the guy is 100% guilty, there is no chance he could be the wrong person, and the death penalty is far better than what he did to those kids.

[depakid]

112. So let's just dispense with due process

That's the ticket.

[tburnsten]

116. Think of all we could accomplish!

There is a difference between due process and allowing a monster like this guy years worth of tying up our already overworked legal system and burning through tax dollars in the process though he has no hope of having his verdict changed. The bastard doesn't even care about his own death sentence, but he is still going to have plenty of appeals filed by others on his behalf.

[RC]

141. The administration already has.

I wonder how many think killing Duncan is a good thing consider themselves good Christians? And yes it does matter, there is a tie in.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

149. Thanks to Free Market capitalists with Law Degrees!

Hang him AND his bleeding heart enablers!

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Counterintuitive I know, but it is far more expensive to execute

Not to mention it is time this country joins the rest of the civilized world

[Donald Ian Rankin]

118. Because of the precedent it sets.

If you execute people who have committed terrible crimes where there is almost no doubt of their guilt, it's inevitable that you'll also sometimes execute people who've committed crimes that are a bit less terrible, and a bit less definately guilty.

The reason to keep people like this alive is that you can't kill them without killing innocent or guilty-but-not-deserving-to-die people too.

[Orsino]

94. I'm always saddened at how eager some folks are to kill...

...or to have others do the killing for them. It's why we're in Iraq, I guess.

They'll call criminals "animals," and say that death is too good for them. Makes me wonder how they think of and treat animals.

[tburnsten]

101. I treat animals very nicely

Such as the birds I got to start eating out of my hand, and my puppy who loves to be tucked in and given a pillow when he sleeps (the funniest thing), but none of those animals has tortured, raped, and murdered ten people either. If they had, I would have snuffed them out like a light. What happens when a bear attacks a human? Tiger? Lion? Chimp? Dog? They get put down, because that is what needs to happen. Unless an animal is an extraordinary rarity, once they have killed and wounded people they get killed, because it isn't worth more lives to try and contain them, and there is no reason to "rehabilitate" them either. This fellow was worse than any animal.



And "animal" is a very old term for people like him who have no reservations about murdering people and do things like that to children or anyone else for that matter. I'm surprised you are unfamiliar with the term, is this your first language?

[Orsino]

117. "Animal" is a very old framing...

...brought to us by folks who want us to devalue each other.

And we have wrongly convicted and therefore executed many people later proven not to have committed the crimes. I don't find this acceptable, but the death junkies must have their circuses, I know.

[tburnsten]

119. So "animal" is a framing term

But "Death Junkies" is a perfectly acceptable thing to call people who disagree with you? How considerate of Mr. Duncan you are.




I think the rest of us care more about his victims, and there is absolutely no doubt that this man committed every one of those crimes. There is no shadow of a doubt. Obviously the death penalty should never be used in a case where the accused has a realistic chance of being exhonerated, or when they are convicted because of sketchy evidence or witnesses, but Mr. Duncan does not fall under those guidelines.

[Orsino]

124. "Death junkies" aptly describes a certain population...

...who will not hear of eliminating government executions. They need their proxy killings.

The death penalty is too final for me to support. It is in part a refusal by the state to acknowledge its own failure, and a cop-out for a society that has been too ignorant and lazy to do the work of supporting and treating a citizen.

[tburnsten]

133. My government is not a parent

And so it cannot "fail" because of the depravity of the actions of one of us. At what point is a citizen past the point of no return? Do you think that all people, no matter the level of the atrocities they have committed, can be rehabilitated and made well? This man and others like him can never and will never be made well short of a full frontal lobotomy. I feel that having severe punishments for the absolutely beyond help prevents us from eventually having runaway mental rehabilitation treatments.

[Orsino]

139. Government and individuals can fail to act proactively to prevent violent crime...

...and can certainly fail to rehabilitate violent offenders. We usually do. We usually don't even try, which guarantees failure.

I would love to see us try "runaway" mental treatment, whatever that is--it would beat nothing, and might eventually entitle us to make conclusions about who is really beyond help.

[tburnsten]

142. How do you rehabilitate

a man who murders, rapes, and tortures little boys and their sisters, and kills the whole family to get them? I think you are overly optimistic about the abilities of clinical psychology. Short of mandatory rehabilitation programs for everyone (NEVER!) their is no way to fix a person like that.

[Orsino]

144. It would depend on the individual.

The ability to rehabilitate even one, though condemns further any execution in which that hadn't been tried.

Executions make some people feel good. The sad thing is that victims and interested onlookers get that same good feeling whether or not the condemned is ever proven innocent too late. That says to me that the urge to kill must be questioned, and ultimately denied.

[tburnsten]

147. As long as you are convinced it is just the "urge to kill" acting

then you will never be open to the nuances of the actual debate on the death penalty. A murderer like him is incapable of being rehabilitated, there is no way to recover a person from that sort of life, and if there was, they would certainly all result in suicides because no emotionally or mentally capable person could ever live with themself after causing that level of suffering to children and entire families. Those are people who are gone, forever, and the few survivors have very steep obstacles to scale now. Everything he previously owned and everything he may have been eligible to inherit should be distributed among his victims such as the little girl who he raped and tortured along with her brother before murdering him in front of her. I sincerely doubt that anyone really feels anything other than gut-wrenching horror when they read an account of an innocent person wrongfully put to death, which is why I only support using capital punishment in certain, set in stone cases like Mr. Duncans.

[Orsino]

148. "Incapable of being rehabilitated" is not a good argument for killing...

...and such a judgment is by definition always incomplete. "Not rehabilitated yet" is about all we can conclude--assuming some effort to rehabilitate is ever actually made.

Of course, "not rehabilitated yet" is almost a given when you lock up a violent offender in close proximity with other violent offenders, and give them nothing to do but hate.

[tburnsten]

154. Wait'll he escapes

then tell the families of his victims that inability to rehabilitate him (even if it were successful he would still need to sit in jail his entire life) was a good reason to not execute him for his monstrous crimes.

[Orsino]

156. Yes. Imprisonment is a great responsibility.

We ought to be humane and ever-vigilant. We shouldn't privatize it or otherwise allow corrections to be deprofessionalized, and we ought not to kill helpless prisoners. Serious efforts at rehabilitation could reduce recidivism among the escapees.

But we can't look forward in time and kill the ones who would later escape.

[ingac70]

5. Guys like this is why I'll never support...

doing away with the death penalty entirely.

[emilyg]

19. This filth

smiled when his verdict was read.

[Number23]

73. I absolutely agree

Guys like this is why I'll never support doing away with the death penalty entirely.

The OP asked for our thoughts on this.

Joseph Edward Duncan III was sentenced to death for the 2005 kidnapping, torture and murder of a 9-year-old northern Idaho boy, the killing of their 13-year-old brother, Slade Groene, his mother, Brenda Groene, and her fiance, Mark McKenzie... raping a boy at gunpoint in 1980... killing two half-sisters from Seattle in 1996, and... killing a young boy in Riverside County, Calif., in 1997.

My thoughts?? Good for the jury. The prison should build a damp and moldy cellar UNDER the jail and keep him there until he is executed.

[NeedleCast]

6. Doesn't Make Me Less Against the Death Penalty

But I understand why some might want that level of revenge. Part of me does too.

[LostinVA]

84. Exactly -- which is why I'm against the death penalty

Emotion shouldn't enter the law.

However, I'd have no problem with this sociopath being sentenced to life without parole at hard labor.

[norepubsin08]

7. You know Duncan is a repuke

just like Ted Bundy who was being groomed by the Washington State Republican Party to run for governor one day. It seems like all child molesters and serial killers are repukes...could it be something about those assholes that's genetic?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. I say we bomb Western Montana.

It's worse than Hitler.

[nomorenomore08]

10. I have to wonder about people, who wouldn't even have the momentary thought of killing the perp.

Being against the death penalty on principle is fine, and with all the glaring flaws in the current system, I myself would be in favor of a national moratorium. Still, that doesn't stop me from thinking, when I read stories like this, that only death would be adequate for such a rabid animal in human form. And the lack of such a visceral reaction on the part of others would suggest, to me, that they may feel too much empathy for the murderer and too little for the victim(s).

In other words, if your first reaction to this man's death sentence is to think that he doesn't deserve to die, then where are your priorities really at? Some people just aren't deserving of sympathy/empathy of any kind, having proven themselves beneath all humanity, and Mr. Duncan is one of them.

[dddem]

25. speaking for myself,

being against the death penalty isn't the same as thinking he doesn't deserve to die. I think lots of people deserve to die, I just don't think it's up to us to decide when.

Peace.

[nomorenomore08]

29. Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I certainly am leery of using state power for that purpose.

I just feel like a "bleeding heart" can only bleed so much, especially for vicious predators like this guy, before it becomes ridiculous. Not attacking anyone here, just throwing in my two cents.

[cali]

145. brilliantly said.

[varkam]

31. Well, I generally think that everyone is a human being, including Mr. Duncan.

Does that somehow mean that I do not have, or have less, empathy for the victim of Mr. Duncan? Of course it doesn't. I whole-heartedly support punishment, but the notion that one must resort to barbarism in order to show their empathy strikes me as a bit ironic.

I know that sentiment doesn't go over well with many -- that someone like Mr. Duncan should still be considered a human being -- but I have yet to read any sort of convincing argument why he should not be considered as such, even despite the terrible things that he has done. Another issue that I have with it is the notion of a "slippery slope". Who else shall we consider to be sub-human, and therefore not offer them the same protections that we would offer human beings? People who women? Mass ers? ists? Who gets to make that call as to who is and who is no longer a human being?

I understand the outrage. I think that we should be outraged at outrageous acts. I think we should demand severe punishment for such deeds, but I do not think that we need or even should resort to similar depravity evidenced by the actions of the condemned unless we wish to give up on the notion that "we" are somehow better than "them".

Just my .02.

[silverojo]

61. He is NOT human

He is a monster. Anyone who could have the SLIGHTEST compassion for a monster who would commit a crime like this doesn't have enough compassion for the victims. Otherwise, you couldn't even begin to call him "human".

You fucking bet WE are better than THEM. WE are good people who wouldn't dream of hurting another human being that way. THEY are psychopaths beyond redemption.

[Dogtown]

82. And yet

You want to kill. Because you're "better".

"You" are one of the goodguys. Who wouldn't dream of hurting another human being..

Oh, your caveat; "that way". You wouldn't dream of hurting him in "that way". You want to kill in a *different* way.

DO NOT tell me I have too little compassion for the victim! I just don't want to turn into a monster myself. Your lust to kill makes you a monster.



GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT COMMIT MURDER.

[Cid_B]

65. I know for an utter fact...

... that I am better than that murdering raping piece of crap.

Some folks just really do need killin'.

[Chovexani]

33. You know, the perp decided those kids needed to die.

And I'd like to think I'm a little better than that.

If you think that was harsh, the Pro-Vengeance Crowd's bloodthirsty insistence on this kind of medieval thinking is patently offensive to me.

I happen to believe that once we start deciding that some people don't deserve to be treated like a human being, that is when we become the monsters we despise.

[rebel with a cause]

48. Actually, he decided that the three other people in the house

needed to die. He thought the two little kids deserved to be repeatedly raped, tortured, and then killed for his entertainment and pleasure. Making the little girl watch her brother being raped and tortured, then killed and burned was also entertainment for him. Yeah, I don't believe in killing unnecessarily, but if I knew this guy had a chance of ever getting out of prison I think I could throw the switch myself. And I have problems with killing insects.

Flame away, but I have seen what child abuse does to children even without it being done this badly.

[LostinVA]

85. Excellent repsonse

[Dogtown]

81. You are describing "instinct"

versus "reason".

My first "gut" reaction was anger, but over time I've trained myself to base my decisions on reason. Reason tells me that I don't want my government to commit revenge-murders to satisfy your emotional needs.

This "animal" you describe acted out his "visceral" desires without the capacity to reason it through. He could not "empathize" with them (as you can't with him). Yet you accuse me of caring more about him than about his victims. That's because you're arguing from emotion, and trying to trigger enough guilt (over my lack of empathy) to overcome my reason.

I'll repeat: I don't want my government committing murder. Not for your amusement, not for any reason.

Your lust for revenge can be controlled if you learn to trust your brain over your glands. Your brain really is smarter...

[nomorenomore08]

88. I wasn't accusing any specific individual of anything.

And I agree, it is about instinct vs. reason. One needs a balance of the two - a person who's all reason, no instinct is a Vulcan, whereas a person who's all instinct, no reason is little more than a wild animal.

Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not attacking anyone here. I was just particularly upset by this case, as you can understand.

[Evoman]

113. Thank you...that was a very good response, and exactly how I feel.

It is not always easy to keep emotions under control, but absolutely necessary. "Righteous" anger can lead people to do horrible things, many times just as bad as the perps. I don't want to be one of the villagers waving his torch in the air.

And I am offended that others would see my disdain for the Death Penalty as somehow lacking in empathy. I don't feel sorry for the perp...I don't even think he can be rehabilitated. By I want nothing to do with his murder, and I will not support the government killing it's citizens. Never.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. So, popular opinion that someone deserves to die is the definition of justice?

Capital punishment doesn't deter crime. This guy committed his crimes when the death penalty was a likely punishment.

I want the guy to die. I'd want it even more if the victim was my kid. Nevertheless, I don't have the moral right to do it, especially not by using government as my proxy.

[tburnsten]

103. It doesn't matter if it deters crime

detterence is not the only goal of crime and punishment, otherwise we would be fining speeders fifty thousand dollars per mile over the limit they were caught at. Not too many people would speed then would they? Punishment is supposed to punish the individual, and in this case, how do you punish a man who smiles at his sentence and makes videos of him raping and torturing a small child in front of his sister and then burning his body? What if he escapes prison and kills again? More unlikely things have happened, prison breaks are actually fairly common. Even Alcatraz had an escapee. I know that if one of my loved ones were harmed by him after an escape, because an appeals court changed his sentence from death to life, I would sue the life right out of everyone involved in his sentence change. It wouldn't bring the loved one back, but maybe the fools in charge of appeals would stop giving murdererour sociopaths like him a chance to escape and kill again.

[madmusic]

143. sympathy/empathy has nothing to do with it.

Though I can't speak for other death penalty opponents here, if someone happened upon the crime scene and killed Duncan to save the children, I think most here would consider that person a hero.

So it is not a question of sympathy/empathy but is a question of premeditated murder. If Iraq really had WMDs and really planned to attack the U.S. BushCo would have a much better case because we understand self defense, but to invade without a self defense justification because of imminent danger isn't the American way.

No one here has "sympathy/empathy" for Duncan but it is that broader principle that many defend. It is those times when the reason for abandoning that principle is so strong that the principle is most at risk and needs defended.

[karlschneider]

11. As Michael Valentine Smith pointed out, there are some people with absolutely no reedeming value.

But in lieu of the DP, in this case I'd settle for removing his hands, feet and male apparatus.

[devilgrrl]

12. supermax

nt

[Mike Daniels]

42. Precisely. Give him three meals, a slit in the wall to allow light and fresh air and that's it

No visitation, no books, no television...Nothing that distracts this guy from the fact that he's going to be in a small little cell with nothing to do but look at the walls until he's in the ground.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. IMO hard labor is better

After a certain time in solitary confinement you basically lose your sanity and awareness of your surroundings. With hard labor, you are fully aware of how much your life sucks.

[Ex Lurker]

71. no such thing as hard labor any more

prison labor nowadays is no more backbreaking than any semi skilled job on the outside. Inmates earn the right to work with good behavior, otherwise they sit in their cells. The days of turning big rocks into little ones are long gone.

[tburnsten]

83. Hard labor would be a fantastic option

However, our criminals don't have to do that anymore. Times have changed and we are no longer allowed to actually punish our criminals and murderers, so the only real option other than expensive (who knows how much the prison system will cost in ten or twenty years, let alone fifty) life confinement is to execute them. Obviously only a few people would qualify ethically and legally for that punishment, like this guy, but true siberian-style hard labor would be the best option by a landslide.

[sendero]

13. In cases like this..

.... where there is ZERO question as to the guilt of the defendant, I have no problem with the DP for crimes such as this.

[emilyg]

15. I agree.

[Ghost in the Machine]

14. Fry his ass... n/t

[gratuitous]

16. Yeah, let's off Mr. Duncan, that will bring young Dylan back to life

Our society simply must get past its infantile preoccupation with the redemptive power of violence.

[cobalt1999]

59. So, I guess we shouldn't punish him at all, since no punishment will bring Duncan back to life.

What a stupid argument.

[gratuitous]

87. Yes, indeed, you have posited a stupid argument

But then, as I said, our society's infantile preoccupation often leads to stupid arguments. Thanks for your support.

[cobalt1999]

17. I have no problem with the DP when guilt is certain.

This guy has no reason to use our oxygen or eat our food. Good-bye and Good Riddance.

[bicentennial_baby]

18. I am against the Death Penalty, period.

I don't waver from that, despite the emotions involved. Ever.

[Ikonoklast]

20. He should be fed into a meat grinder feet first.

Just so you could hear him scream all the way to the end.

If an animal like this ever touched one of mine, he better pray to whatever god he believes in that the police find him before I did.


God is all-merciful.

I'm not God.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. These are the cases where it's hardest to be against the death penalty

But I stand on principle. Principle means nothing if specific contingencies cause you to sway from them. No death penalty, not ever.

[aikoaiko]

23. Death Penalty IS the humane alternative to what he actually deserves.

When the actor is certain and there are no significant mitigating circumstances, the death penalty is fine.

[BreweryYardRat]

53. Agreed.

I have problems with the way the death penalty has been misused in this country. But, as the previous poster said: "When the actor is certain and there are no significant mitigating circumstances, the death penalty is fine."

On the bright side, I don't see him being able to sustain much of an appeal process, so he should get the needle fairly quickly.

[lonestarnot]

24. Those poor ass jurors, and that poor little sister. Just turn that motherfucker loose in the pen.

Won't be a need for the death penalty. Let nature take its course 4x6 box for the rest of his life!

[DustyJoe]

26. Please

Oh please don't waste tax money on appeals and clean chamber for injection. Let Daddy give him a 5 cent .22 behind the ear. What a scum.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Thoughts? May He Rot In Hell For Eternity And Suffer Immeasurably.

[Thothmes]

28. Executing this person may take 10-15 years

I recommend that he be sentenced to life in prison. At the Montana State pen, let the general population inmates know what this guy in being imprisoned for, show them the videos if practical. Then put this man in the general prison population. Would expect he will be dead within a few weeks at most.

[rebel with a cause]

50. Posted this upthread.

Doubt it would take two weeks.

[TexasObserver]

30. I'm against the DP.

[ulysses]

32. still against the death penalty.

It's not about the horror of the crime.

[Chovexani]

35. Agreed.

Something that is lost on the bloodthirsty Pro-Vengeance crowd.

And yes, the severity of the crime is taken into account during sentencing, as it should...but no human being has the right to decide another is no longer worthy of life. Whether they are some sociopath who takes that power into his/her own hands with a pistol, or a sociopath in black robes who is given that power by the State.

[ulysses]

38. the idea that we can draw a line like that

is absurd. It can't help but be based on an emotional reaction. "Oh, how horrible! Surely, that's worth the death penalty. Oh God, that's even worse!" Poor excuse for jurisprudence.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. How soon can we kill him?

[dysfunctional press]

36. what chance did he have in life, going by all three names and all...?

lee harvey oswald, john wayne gacy, albert henry disalvo...

[Stern21]

37. As heinous as his crime, I am still against state sponsored killing.

One in 1,000 may be innocent.

You can't take dead back.

[rebel with a cause]

51. they have a tape of him doing the deed and

the little girl to tell them what he did. I don't think there is a chance of his innocent. Oh, he also has told them that he did it and why. Sorry no sympathy or empathy for this one from me.

[brentspeak]

39. Just confirms that sexual predators should never be released from prison -- ever

If Duncan had been sentenced to life after his first conviction for sexual assault, these murders -- and the other ones he confessed to -- would never have happened.

"In closing arguments, Whelan reminded the jury of Duncan's lifelong "pattern of violence," including a conviction for raping a boy at gunpoint in 1980. Duncan has told investigators he killed two half-sisters from Seattle in 1996, and he is charged with killing a young boy in Riverside County, Calif., in 1997."

[Bill McBlueState]

40. These threads are so predictable

Out of 100,000 DUers, there's about 10 of them who show up shrieking for vengeance on every death penalty thread. Gets old.

[depakid]

63. Is it any wonder why people in the states are so easily manipulated by the corporate media?

Appeals to primitive emotions- they rarely fail to work.

[karlschneider]

92. Yes and there are a couple dozen who seem to think nobody is ever guilty of anything.

:eyes:

[Bill McBlueState]

98. Oddly, none of them have posted here

I just looked through the whole thread, and I admit it was a quick look, but I didn't see anyone say the guy isn't guilty.

[karlschneider]

99. I should have said "deserving of punishment."

...

[Evoman]

114. Who the fuck is saying he is not deserving of punishment?

NOBODY. That's a bullshit strawmen. Most people just don't want the government deciding which citizen it can kill.

[mitchum]

105. And there will be 10, 000 equally emotional DUers shrieking about how...

"the death penalty is wrong...it's just soooooo wrong!" in order to convince themselves and others just what good, rational, civilized people they are.
Oh...and to seek validation from the mob. Can't forget that one, can we?

[Evoman]

115. That's because IT IS WRONG. And maybe one day Americans will join the rest of us in that.

Though I'm not holding my breath.

[JanMichael]

41. Thoughts? The perp is a disgusting piece of shit. DP? nope

sorry.

Is that what you wanted? An OK for a state to take a life? Won't get it from most people here.

[pokerfan]

91. I only wanted a discussion

Please read my further comments http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3867257&mesg_id=3871789">here.

[Norwood]

43. Perfect example of why I'll always be pro-death penalty

My thoughts? Can they just speed up the process and string him up now? People who do shit like this forfeit their right to live.

[backscatter712]

47. This is why we have a death penalty.

The crime was horrible, we know who did it, it's blatantly obvious who did it.

He needs to die. As far as I'm concerned, he forfeited his life with that crime.

[1]

49. "Jurors viewed horrifying video Duncan made of him..."

i have a problem with the death penalty when it is ambiguous. circumstantial evidence. no body. based on testimony. no solid facts. that's not justice, that's just courtroom bullshit theater.

reasonable doubt about the manner in which the decision was arrived, regardless of the reasonable doubt of the conviction, is my deciding factor.


if this guy documented his crime with a video, the decision here about this crime is clear.

kill that fucker. no question...

[rebel with a cause]

52. For those who think that anyone who has no mercy for this person is awful.

I would tell you to go work with children who have been raped, tortured and/or seen their parent/family member murdered. Go see the results of a child who has been through this. That is where my mercy goes, where my pity goes and definitely where my empathy goes.

I have a case in mind that I can tell you in general terms the results. The child was later found to be deeply mentally scarred and diagnosed as being dangerously mentally ill. At thirteen they already knew that it would never be safe for him to be let out into the general society ever again. His adoptive parents had already given him back to the state and refused to take him back because they were too afraid of him. The last I knew they were thinking about putting him into a state mental health facility probably for the rest of his life. He was a sweet kid, but he was scarily perverted. And he was not the only one, he just had been through the worse experiences and his symptoms were more obvious.

I am not saying this little girl will turn out like this. Maybe she will get the help she needs, but she will still carry mental scars from this.

[Greyhound]

64. How many of those children go on to commit similar acts in their lives? We have to focus

on the cause and prevention, petty revenge will never solve the problem.

Since you brought it up, is your mercy so scarce that there is not enough for all?

[rebel with a cause]

66. sometimes I think that I don't.

I had to work on both sides of the abuse. Both with the abusers and the abused.(not in that particular case) I can tell you I interacted with the adult abuser just as I would anyone else, but doing it made me a little dead inside. You have to shut down emotionally, especially when you work with the youths that sexually abuse other children. To work with a youth that you know did something to a two year old just two days before and not show any emotion at all takes a lot of discipline. Some of these youths responded to treatment but some do not.

To work with children that you know will never be safe in the main stream population because of their illness is very hard. Who do you have the more concern for, the one that will hurt others or the children who will be hurt. I had sympathy for all of them, but some of them I had empathy for because of their past and their personal outlook. But some were just hard to understand at all because of their history and their own incapability to feel remorse. Sadly, the truth is that some of these kids cannot be helped with counseling. They have no conscious. They can try to kill you one day and then expect everything to be hunky-dory the next. Trust me, it happened. No concept of feeling guilt. No empathy for their victims. Nothing. Only what they feel personally. Some of these children may grow up to be rapist and killers. And some may never be caught at what they do.

I also worked with children who amazingly were actually normal little kids who had been through a lot. There were kids there that I would have taken home with me if I could have. There were kids that were throw aways, kids who had done nothing wrong but be abused by their family, and kids that just had no where to go while their parents were working on being better parents. Those were the kids we were prepared (facility wise) to work with. These were the kids that I could see hope for a quick recovery from these experiences.

When I speak of capital punishment for these certain crimes, I am not seeking petty revenge. I am not even seeking justice. I am thinking about taking an illness out of the world before it can spread to others. I have said this before, but will explain it here. I had a classmate that did research on serial killers. He corresponded with many of them, some of them famous. These guys had fan clubs. They sent out letters, had web sites, and sold souvenirs on line. These guys talked like what they did was nothing. Describing certain things in detail sometimes. Of course there were a few who still claimed their innocence but would then talk about if they had did this and that. These guys are celebrities and in these fan clubs were people that were wanting to learn how to be like their hero. Now tell me about how life in prison punishes these guys and keeps them away from the public.

Sorry, I am too cynical because I have seen too much to be the bleeding heart I use to be. Edited to add: Check back with me tomorrow, maybe I'll be more tolerant then.

[Greyhound]

90. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

You even mentioned the reason I have come to my position on the DP. This behavior/condition(?) is like an illness, and needs to be treated as it has already spread to others, some days it feels like it has spread to a majority of us.

Things like the fact that over 1/3 of all women have been raped (my personal experience puts this number much higher, but that's what the report says). The reality that a majority of Amerikans support laws that make it illegal to be poor (look at what Denver (my hometown, BTW) has done to it's homeless for this celebration of excess, for an easy example). That at least 1/3rd of us defend people that make over 1/4 million a year and claim that they are not rich and should not have to pay more taxes. The dearth of labor laws and the utter lack of enforcement of those few that remain, and on and on and on....

All of these things are violent at their core, we revel in violence, we worship it, and we propagate it everywhere we go. It is a social illness and the patient refuses to acknowledge they are sick and refuses any treatment.

I know this guy has done terrible things and must be dealt with, but killing him will not help him, his victims, nor us, in any way.

[rebel with a cause]

72. I need to add to my last response (my earlier book)

When I talked about dealing with children that had abused other children, there are different catogories here. There are children that act out sexually because of what has been done to them, and they may abuse another child because of their feeling of being powerless, but they feel remorse and are not considered predators. These children are easily treatable and go on to live normal lives most of the time.

There are others who have been so socialized to the abuse that they become predators that prey on chidren repeatedly. They often are so affected by their experiences that they are very hard to treat, but each child is different. Children that have shared the same experience may be totally different in their sexualization (need for power). The ones who have no feeling for their victims are the ones that I spoke of having to shut down emotionally when you worked with them, because they break your heart. Of course, there are others, but I am just speaking of my observations and "book learning". Someone else could totally disagree with me and that would be okay. There may be whole new theories out there now.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

128. Not enough for the bastard that did this.

[Hippo_Tron]

67. I have a question for you and it has absolutely nothing to do with the death penalty

You say that the 13 year old kid will have to be put in a mental hospital for the rest of his life. Why is it that we will probably find a cure for cancer within that kid's lifetime but not a cure for his mental illness? Are mental diseases just too complicated to cure or is it a lack of money/attention or both?

[rebel with a cause]

70. sometimes the illness is just too deep and complicated.

I don't know if that is what they ended up doing with him. I left before he did.

To read the case files on children such as this one, you become frustrated with the world in general. there are too many villains to throw the blame at. Whether he had the mental illness naturally or if it developed from his experiences is another question, but the complications of the illness was definitely caused by the abusive experiences. (I am going to speak in general terms here because of not giving out to much personal information on the youth) The problem is when a child is homicidal and/or a sexual predator along with other diagnosed illnesses, and this is when treatment becomes complicated beyond belief.

Sometimes it is just a case of not getting to the youth in time to do preventive care. These children are often not taken from their homes when they are small enough to do what needs to be done. The system (at least when I worked in it) is broken, and there is not enough recognition given to stopping the abuse in the early stages. It is hard sometimes to know if the family is fixable or if the child should just be taken out. And when you take them, where do they go to.

Some of the children had been in and out of the system for five to fifteen years, and were still with their abusers during the times they were not in facilities. Many of these children just needed counseling and a new start. Then there were some who had been in the system too long. They needed ongoing treatment, they were very capable of living a normal live but they needed help learning to do so. There were a few much harder. These are our future Ted Bundys and John Wayne Gacy. These are sociopaths and there is not much they know what to do with them as far as treatment. You cannot give someone a conscious or make them care about others when they cannot. I don't know of anything we could do to change these children and that is what was frustrating.

So to answer your question, and I will do so as it pertains to children. Mental illnesses sometimes are too complicated to cure, and there is not much you can do but wait and hope for the best outcome possible. Sometimes it is a case of attention being given to pevention instead of catching it when it is too late. Such as having qualified people working with family services who will know when a child should be taken, the judical system that will work for the benefit of the the child instead of the parent, and homes (private or public) for them to go to where they will receive the care they need. And this all takes money, and if the government is not providing funding for social services there is no preventive measures for any illness. These are just my opinions.

[cali]

146. Sorry, no. I worked as a Victim Advocate for 8 years

I saw some horrifying crimes against children- though certainly nothing like this. I was against the DP then, and I'm still against it.

[alittlelark]

54. Give him life w/o parole... his inmate peers will take care of him.

........just sayin'.

[ingac70]

75. He gets life without parole and chances are...

he'll be in protective custody.

[Hippo_Tron]

56. Still against the death penalty, think he should get a lifetime of hard labor

[LostinVA]

86. Me too

[Greyhound]

62. The death penalty is wrong and almost the entire world sees that.

What are you missing?

[Heather MC]

68. I am not against the DP however I do believe if there is a chance the guy

or girl could be innocent we must run all the test possible
but as a mom, if anyone ever did that to my Children I'd kill them myself.
I have zero tolerance for anyone who harms children, but I think our DP is too humane
I could watch that guy be hung
Call me sadistic I really don't care, I have no compassion for someone like that
and if you ask me what if it was someone in my family like a brother or uncle. I have enough of them in jail to say without flinching you hurt kids you should die!
Of Course I am from VA we are not afraid to fry people in VA

Which is why I think Bush and CO need to sentence to death by a Jury of their peers
just thought I would toss that in for the Universe

[Philosoraptor]

78. Put him in General Pop so he can see what it's like.

[pokerfan]

89. I'm the OP

I consider myself anti death penalty on principle and have argued this position on this board in the past:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6416131#6422931

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3520831#3522512

My objection to the death penalty has generally been the position that "beyond reasonable doubt" is too low a standard to justify the taking of a human life. And I know that this position is vulnerable to a slippery-slope argument.

This is why this is such a hard case for me (aside from the fact that I live only about twenty minutes from the crime scene and it's been covered in http://www.spokesmanreview.com/sections/duncan/">excruciating detail in the local paper.) You see, there is no doubt here, reasonable or otherwise. There isn't any doubt at all. The monster admitted doing it, has admitted to other rapes/murders, kept a diary and even videotaped himself in the act! He has also said that he intends to keep killing until he himself is killed. He wants "a proof that God exists" or something.

For me, it isn't about vengeance, at least I don't think it is. It's about protecting people including his guards, his fellow future inmates and anyone else who will have to deal with this creature. As long as he draws a breath he will be a threat to someone.

I just don't know.

[karlschneider]

100. The notion that "every life is sacred" is every bit as ludicruous as "every sperm is..."

There are plenty people, we're not an endangered species and getting rid of the worst only makes the world better.
But I am only an egg.

[pokerfan]

102. and I'm only a zygote

As I said, my opposition stems from the fact that the legal system makes mistakes and a death sentence is irrevocable. In this case, however, there is zero doubt.

[DS1]

93. A sentence too good for that scum. I'm glad I didn't have to watch that

that fuck should be tied to a tree in the Amazon

[Uncle Joe]

96. He should be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole because the death penalty

is not just about him!

The death penalty is about virtually every American, all 300 million of us. Unless you're wealthy or powerful, an innocent person can be executed by mistake and after that there is no going back. If you don't want the state to be guilty of at best voluntary manslaughter or at worst premeditated murder, the only logical conclusion is to outlaw the death penalty, period.

[Mad_Dem_X]

97. GOOD.

I am pro-death penalty for monsters like this.

[jmowreader]

104. I'm starting to be against the DP the way it's structured now...

Molly Ivins once said the number-one reason people are executed is Bad Lawyering. Look at the people who get the needle--almost all of them are poor, almost all of them have public defenders. Not all public defenders are bad lawyers, but all public defenders are overworked, underpaid lawyers. Any prosecutor who brings a capital case should be prepared to buy the defendant a quality lawyer regardless of the defendant's financial condition. If this was law, the number of capital cases being brought forth would go down dramatically--not so much because they don't want to use their budgets to hire private-sector attorneys as they don't want to lose case after case, which would happen with good defense attorneys.

That's one reason. The other is I'm very much against the technique we use to execute--it's a chamber of horrors. Remember Joseph Clark, the double murderer it took 90 minutes to whack in Ohio? The chemicals they use to kill inmates aren't even allowed to be used to kill dogs. If they insist on this stupid execution technique they really need to come up with a better protocol.

However, given all that, the only regret I have about Duncan's execution is they can't really get creative with this shit. This ANIMAL--yes, that's right, he doesn't even qualify as a human being after what he did--needs to be dragged behind a car down a logging road, thrown off the roof of Duane Hagadone's hotel in Coeur d' Alene, blown up...you know, SOMETHING really fucking decisive and painful.

[crimsonblue]

107. put him in a room by himself all day for the rest of his life

no human contact. Just meals and water slipped through the access port. allow a doctor visit once every six months, but put the doctor in "Outbreak" style gear. Let the asshole drive himself crazy. It's worse than death.

[PatGund]

109. General Population.....

....and have the guards go out for a coffee for a few hours.

Problem solved.

[SmokingJacket]

121. I'm against the death penalty...

but I'm not crying for him.

Personally, I'd rather him live his life out in deprivation and misery.

[thoughtcrime1984]

122. This is where I do not lean to the left.

Either kill the fucker, or let him live the rest of his days in the hole, while getting one piece of bread and one glass of water per day.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

125. Still against the DP. Will always be. You fail. -nt

[pokerfan]

126. I fail?

:shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

129. He's still getting killed, looks like you fail.

[EFerrari]

130. Standing up against state sponsored murder is not failing

even if the state continues to murder.

You have it exactly backward.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

131. Standing up for murderous, raping, torturing dirtbags is failing.

I think I have it exactly right. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

David

[EFerrari]

132. Opposing the death penalty is not endorsing the crime.

And our civilization didn't become what we refer to as "civil society" by adhering to the Code of Hammurabi. Most of the world already understands this. Maybe we'll catch up someday.

Are you really a medic? Do you only treat people who never threw the first punch?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

134. I've treated lots of bad people.

I didn't say I should kill him, although in this case it might be tempting. I do however believe that the State should ensure that he nevers repeats these acts.

David

[EFerrari]

137. I'm with you there, David. n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

127. Against.

Always. It's one thing to not feel sorry about his impending death (I don't) but to actually feel glee and bloodthristiness reveals a lot about the poster/s in question.

[flvegan]

136. Why give him what in a short amount of time he'll wish for?

Punishment is looking over your shoulder constantly for the rest of your life. He has many, many years to live like this. It's an absolute mindfuck that almost borders on cruelty. The death penalty is simple revenge.

[ChristopherL]

138. Good

He deserves it.

[ulysses]

140. glad you're here to clear that up for us. n/t

[asteroid2003QQ47]

150. "longtime sex offender"-WTF!?

Hang his bleeding heart enablers FIRST,
THEN hang him!

[Liberal Dose]

152. I am pro death penalty in cases like this. In fact, I am pro slow, painful death penalty in cases

like this.

[Sanctified]

155. This monster should have never left prison the first time. n/t