I truely believe this Iraq war was designed chaos

[blues90]

I am at the point where I don't honetly feel anyone has the answers of what to do or how to get out and no one can predict what the outcome will be if we do pull out .

I feel the dems have no clear answers and this is why they have not done anything to stop this occupation . Besides not having the votes .

I have read we went into Iraq on the cheap because the bush admin felt this would be easy to win in Iraq . I don't buy this theory .

I personally don't thing they ever intend to leave Iraq not with their huge base there and all the profits that still fill their pockets .

I know they could care less about our economy or the people whether the troops or the private citizen , this should be pretty clear by now .

I don;t know what more we need as proof of this .

No matter what the attempts are to right this situation it will be decades before we see a difference in this country and it will certainly never be the america it once was . You can't just bring jobs back and what jobs will be created and out of what need that will make them profitable .

Sorry , I just don't see things getting in any way better even if we have the best candidants win in 2008 .

I hear promises from most candidates but how on earth would they be able to predict what we will be faced with in 2008 ?

I must say I am completely lost in this mess and see no bright future through politics .

Perhaps at 57 I should just live what time I have left the best I can and when things become unbearable find a length of rope .

[Subdivisions]

1. Do you have children or grand-children? If so,

I suggest, even encourage, you to do everything you can to help make things right.

Do it for them and nevermind the length of rope. And, by the way, you can still take a break to have a little fun and relieve the stress. One of us will fill in 'til you get back.

[blues90]

4. No children here .

Just me and my wife who has just about the same attitude as I have .

We went down to down town LA on Jan 27th for the rally but you know this felt more like a day with alot of people that may be like minded .

I don't have much faith that the politicians pay much attention to these rallies even though the people do try so very hard as a group .

I do feel the only answer and option left is for millions to take to the streets but this is a dream more than a reality as far as I can see .

Sure I could go out in the streets alone and find myself netted and tossed into a padded cell at best .

[Subdivisions]

7. No children? Then may I ask a favor?

Would you continue the fight on behalf of my children? I could use the help!

I firmly believe that the Bushites are so firmly entrenched that only a revolution by the People, which is their Constitutional right, is our only hope of dislodging those that have perpetrated this coup.

[blues90]

17. absolutely

At least for as long as I can . I have been holding on for some powerful action by the people . I would even lead it if I had the chance .

[Subdivisions]

20. Thank you! You'll have to step up though if you want to be a

revolutionary leader! Cindy Sheehan has a considerable head start on you :).

[unblock]

2. i'm sure exxonmobil doesn't mind the supply disruption and $70/bbl oil prices

disrupting a major competitor's oil production was a key goal of the domestic oil industry that ordered this war. carving up the iraqi oil fields might have been the real wet dream, but the sustained high prices in the interim was a very nice "worst case" scenario for them.

[IChing]

3. Read this: Bush Is Not Incompetent

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/incompetent

Haliburton, Exxon, Enron and major international corporations don't care about you or this country
they do care what is in your pocket and getting the government into their pocket.

I saw this trend really starting and manifesting itself worldwide during the first oil crisis/Yom Kippur War.

[silverlib]

23. Extremely good article...

I think this is the only way Democrats can win this election.

We have to tell the truth and call the administration on their agenda and not their incompetence.

[Atman]

5. I also don't believe we didn't have good intel

Fuck, we installed Saddam ourselves. We have satellites that pick out a zit on a foreign leader's nose, yet we could only come up with grainy black & whites pics of balloon inflaters. We have the intel on anything else we seem to need it on, but when it comes to a country which we're about to go to war with, we can't get the straight scoop. It's as bogus a line of reasoning as anything I've ever heard. This was, indeed, contrived chaos to keep the defense contractors rolling in dough forever, to bleed the treasury (and the American people) dry, to enrich Bush's family and friends, to privatize the Iraq oil industry (for us, of course) and to stop Saddam from trading oil in Euros.

Oh, and he tried to kill Bush's dad.

But not for one split second do I believe our massive intelligence operations weren't capable of figuring out whether or not Saddam had WMD. How come we were able to find out what North Korea, one of the most secretive nations on the planet, was up to?

I rate it an 11 on the bullshit meter.

.

[blues90]

10. It is one huge bullshit meter too .

And they have no idea where Bin is and who can really say if he had anything to do with 9/11 . We also could not find Saddam , then he was hung , I still can't imagine what good hanging Saddam did for anyone .

It certainly does not make me feel better about any of this . We can't even be certain Saddam did anything he was said to have done . One basically has to see for ones self to even come close to knowing anything .

He again is an example of just how fast the news moves onto the next thing which I also feel is completely by design .

[az chela]

12. Yup keep those minds filled with disinfomation and they will

eventually believe anything they hear

[stillcool]

6. thank you...

for saying that. I've been having an internal struggle over some of the same things. 2008 still seems a lifetime away, and politics does not seem to have any influence over global affairs. The education I've had over the last several years has turned into a double-edged sword. The search has always been for truth and logic, but comprehension is a funny thing....sometimes I don't really 'get it' until well after the fact. I'm hoping this is my current circumstance. The scene from the movie "Network" comes to mind.

You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it, is that clear?! You think you have merely stopped a business deal - that is not the case! The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back. It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity, it is ecological balance. You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations! There are no peoples! There are no Russians! There are no Arabs! There are no Third Worlds! There is no West! There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multi-variate, multi-national dominion of dollars! Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds and shekels! It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic, and subatomic and galactic structure of things today. And you have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and you will atone!

Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT and T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon - those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state - Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories and mini-max solutions and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable by-laws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime, and our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock, all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you to preach this evangel, Mr. Beale.

[blues90]

13. Yes I saw that movie several times

But I never really thought we would end up here in this hell . I did know that huge corps had a grip and created their reality and presented it to the people who bought into it . But man , this is now really a horror show beyond what most would have imagined . Six years seems long but not long enough to cause this much in your face lies and destruction .

[az chela]

8. YOu are so 1000 % right.Since I am older than you

Can we share that rope???
I am so over life on this earth.

[blues90]

15. Please , tell some of your story .

[CrazyOrangeCat]

9. Keep jammin' Blues90.

Music has saved me so many times....

Keep playing and singing. Don't ever stop doing that.

[Venus Dog]

11. I have believed this for a long time now - planned chaos

perpetual war. They opened Pandora's Box and then stirred the contents. It's a war profiteer's wet dream.

I became very depressed when Abu Garaib was first exposed. I started getting into meditation and trying to not dwell on the negative. My son was in Bagdad for a year and was wounded. He is fine, but it has been the year from hell. Meditation, nature and trying to do volunteer work are the only things that have gotten me through this.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

19. Welcome to DU, Venus Dog.

I'm so glad your son survived that neocon-made hell-hole.

:grouphug:

[KT2000]

14. Agree with you, with a few

exceptions.
Since Kennedy was killed, the winners in the US have been the military industrial entities.
At the end of the Cold War, something had to be done to regenerate funding - the neocons have the crazy ideas to do that. With fingers already in the pie, they were able to divert our treasury to the wealthy war machine.
Yes, I think the chaos we are witnessing is the dream come true of these monsters.

I am not ready to give up yet. The body politic has not coalesced against the staged chaos yet but it is still possible.

The Democratic Congress will be holding hearings that will expose the disgrace and fatigue will take over the populace.
Should a candidate arise who can address that fatigue and raise the level of discussion, there will be hope. If that person can committ to returning the US to its ideals, that person will have support.

The actual number of neocons is very small. They need to be held accountable - publicly. They do not have the support of the military. They do not have the support of the average citizen.

Hang on!

[blues90]

16. Sure but how much time do we have left

There seems to be no way at present to get these criminals out of office and two more years even with restrictions they can still do alot more damage .

I feel Kennedy was gunned down strictly because he was not supporting more war for the military industrial complex .

[EFerrari]

18. I don't think they're smart enough to design chaos.

They're just stupid enough to create it.

[Starfury]

24. I have to agree with the OP - the chaos is a deliberate neocon goal

Look at their actions in Iraq - what more could they have done to increase the chaos there? I think we underestimate them when we describe them as incompetent or stupid. They have made great strides in a relatively short time, and we should recognize that.

From a 2003 article written by a (traditional) conservative about Michael Ledeen (a leading neocon):

(...)

Ledeen has gained notoriety in recent months for the following paragraph in his latest book, The War Against the Terror Masters. In what reads like a prophetic approval of the policy of chaos now being visited on Iraq, Ledeen wrote,

Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our own society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity, which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. Seeing America undo traditional societies, they fear us, for they do not wish to be undone. They cannot feel secure so long as we are there, for our very existence—our existence, not our politics—threatens their legitimacy. They must attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission.

This is not the first time Ledeen has written eloquently on his love for “the democratic revolution” and “creative destruction.” In 1996, he gave an extended account of his theory of revolution in his book, Freedom Betrayed — the title, one assumes, is a deliberate reference to Trotsky’s Revolution Betrayed. Ledeen explains that “America is a revolutionary force” because the American Revolution is the only revolution in history that has succeeded, the French and Russian revolutions having quickly collapsed into terror. Consequently, “Our revolutionary values are part of our genetic make-up. … We drive the revolution because of what we represent: the most successful experiment in human freedom. … We are an ideological nation, and our most successful leaders are ideologues.” Denouncing Bill Clinton as a “counter-revolutionary” (!), Ledeen is especially eager to make one point: “Of all the myths that cloud our understanding, and therefore paralyze our will and action, the most pernicious is that only the Left has a legitimate claim to the revolutionary tradition.”

(...)

http://www.amconmag.com/06_30_03/feature.html

Rightly or wrongly, Ledeen (and presumably his fellow neocons) believes that change is America's defining characteristic, what has made us a super power in the last century. Watch how they operate - wherever the neocons go, chaos follows them. I think that's a deliberate goal. The more fluid a situation is, the easier it is for them to guide events down the path they desire. Divide opponents into smaller, competing groups and conquer them (militarily, economically, etc.)

[NanceGreggs]

26. Man, that is ONE HELL of a statement ...

... it sums up this admin/PNAC/neocons completely.

[EFerrari]

28. I had an aphoristic attack yesterday.

lol

:hi:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thethinker]

22. I believe the chaos in Iraq

is exactly what they planned. It gives them an excuse to stay forever - which they planned to do from the beginning. I also believe we planned and promoted the sectarian violence. So many things seem deliberate, like not being able to get the electric going for the citizens of Baghdad. How many years have we been there? Everything we have done there was carefully planned and for a reason.

We are paying between 2.30-3.00 for a gallon of gas. That is record breaking profits for the oil companies. The war profiteers are making a killing. Never were companies allowed to steal government money with virtually no oversight before. This is happy times for the no-bid contract crowd. I believe it was planned.

[alittlelark]

25. Check out this post..... it sums it all up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x148513



Bush1 and Dick Cheney started privatizing the US military back in 1991. That privatization of logistics has led to tragedies like the USS Cole bombing, the gouging for basic needs for our soldiers, the loss of billions of our tax dollars in Iraq, and the breakdown of services at Walter Reed.


Now we hear that Halliburton is moving their HQ from Houston to Dubai. Once there, the global fascism will take hold firmer and stronger than at any other point we have witnessed in the past.

And the US will be left bankrupt and broken in too many areas to get it fixed in any expedient way.

No financial problems for the incredibly FLUSH global corporations who have been lining their pockets at our expense for the last twenty years, though.

Want to bet that Halliburton and Bechtel will have Blackwater and other private armies at their disposal while our military struggles to recoup?

We have GOT to stop Halliburton's move of all their documents and paperwork.

Contact Waxman and Congress about Halliburton. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

We cannot let them get away with BANKRUPTING America while BANKROLLING New World Order.

Even the RW and the Freepers will have to notice this.




If the link doesn't work you can find it in the Sept.11 dungeon.

[roody]

27. Read "Hope in the Dark"

by Rebecca Solnit

[northofdenali]

29. Decades? We will never be out.

Unless there is a true political revolution in the U.S. Not just oil, but PNAC and the BFEE want a permanent CorpUS presence (Halliburton, Exxon/Mobil, Bechtel, et al) and could give a shit less what happens to their serfs. That includes those of us who are not multi-million or billionaires, so you upper-middle-classers better keep an eye out. They want all power and money in the hands of the Corps.

Check out our new embassy in Baghdad, think we're leaving anytime soon? Can you guess how many "troops" it'll take to guard this behemoth?





From Nixon onward, with only the blip that was Carter and the consummate politician Clinton (who fucked us with NAFTA, though), the United States of American has become the United States of the Corporations, by the Corporations, and for the Corporations.

I'll battle till I'm dead - given my health and the insurance and health industry in the US, that may not be long. But they won't pry my freedom from me till I am.