Is 300 right wing propaganda?

[ButterflyBlood]

Poll question: Is 300 right wing propaganda?

I honestly can't believe the type of shit I read here sometimes...

I vote no of course.

[Bluebear]

1. 300 what?

[Drum]

2. dunno, haven't seen it. nt

[Cobalt-60]

3. Its a baroque re telling of one of the West's

greatest stories of heroism and martial prowess.
Indeed, the values displayed by Leonidas and his guards are completely
incompatible with the demonstrated behavior and attitude of the Republicons.

[Bucky]

21. There is a fine line distinguishing "masturbatory bondage porn" from "baroque"

I suspect "300" falls on the wrong side of that line.

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. The West did not exist at the time. The Greeks were defending their tribal honor culture

And tribal democracy (as existed in parts of Europe and Africa)

against nearly insurmountable odds

(represented by the Emperors of Persia, Macedonia, and Rome.)

The Emperors eventually won, conquered, and assimilated the old, tribal, honor societies, and then pretended that Western civilization had its origins in notions of "Greek virtue" totally alien to us, that they themselves had abandoned 2 millenia ago.

Thermopylae was a temporary victory, waged by an archaic and doomed culture (Sparta) which paved the way for the temporary flowering of culture in an isolated part of the Near East (Athens).

If anything, the Spartans represent the Afghans in the Soviet invasion

(they're even related, both being old-fashioned Indo-European types.)

Or they represent the Zulus at Isandhlwana

(where the bloodthirsty, Spartan-like Zulu military state kicked the British ass.)

[Odin2005]

41. Good post.

People forget that the Greeks WERE NOT WESTERN. The West as we know it did not exist until the 700s AD. Classical Greece was part of the West's parent civilization, the Graeco-Roman (also called Hellenic) Civilization. The Hellenic Civilization was itself the offspring of the Minoan Civilization.

And I totally agree with you about tribal democracy and tribal honor. Greek and Italian city-states were basically tribal entities that became highly developed as a result of trade.

[Neshanic]

4. No, just a stupendously bad movie.

[The Straight Story]

5. No, it is left wing propaganda

:rofl:

Not sure why some see movies as propaganda and can't just go and enjoy em...

[givemebackmycountry]

6. I was under the impression it was anti-bush -

The movie critics on my local NPR station reviewed it on Friday morning.
One of them mentioned that "some" are complaining, the movie "could" be viewed as the Iraqis (The Spartans) facing down the American Army (a gazillion Persians) so it's possible that it could be viewed as an anti-bush movie.

Dude also called it the most "homo-erotic" movie he had ever seen, factoring in all the muscle studs all oiled up, and posing for each other. -

300

That how many movies I'll see before I get around to this one...

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. So they had the rite of death

in there COOL

The greeks used to wash and oil themselves before a battle they expected to die on

A SCOUT, a Persian scout, saw this and reported to Xerxes, who did not get it either

[Selatius]

7. Dick Cheney is no Leonidas.

Cheney is so cowardly, so weak, so soft with years of insulated rule that he would rather get others to fight for him than fight himself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Dick Chenney in armor

now that is a mental to truly return my dinner on...

Should his body be oiled too?

;-)

Now we will have a hard time going to sleep... god that was a BAD mental

[countmyvote4real]

8. I have no idea. Won't see it as it's of no interest to me.

For the longest time, I thought the title was ZOO. (Imagine my disconnect with the promo.) And when I finally realized it was about a #, my eye or brain or something decided it was 200. I can't be that whacked, but I do believe there is a design problem with the logo/title treatment.

[MrSlayer]

9. Not just no. Fuck No.

Anyone claiming that is a fool.

[MetaTrope]

10. Well, if Bush can watch BABYLON 5 and identify with Sheridan...

Anything's possible.

[Cobalt-60]

11. Tell me it isn't so.

May favorite space opera soiled by Chimp!
Id say we need to look to the Pak Marah to find
a good Bush* analogue.

[Liberal In Texas]

12. Can't vote. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Perhaps it has to do with the fact I don't have cable TV.

Your OP should be a little more explanatory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Movie, released yesterday

loosely based on a historic event called the Battle of Thermopilae...

And also based on Frank Miller's graphic novel published in 1998 by the same name

Aparently they don't teach no history no more

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Go tell the Spartains

Here we lie as law demands

What part of the Battle of Thermopylae WAS a real battle are we misisng?

My god we truly don't teach no history no more

by the way the Graphic Novel was WRITTEN in 1998... but I am sure you knew that

[Liberal In Texas]

16. They actually said, "They don't teach histrory NO more."?

As opposed to "They don't teach history ANY more."?

How odd, and utterly ignorant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. That was me talking

but serious, this is the second thread that proves to me that this is not a right or left issue

History is not taught any more

Serious

King Leonidas was a real person

Xerxes was a real person

They faced each other at Thermopylae and the valuable time Leonidas and his three hundred Spartans bought as a rear guard action is what this movie is about

And people trying to see right wing (or for that matter left wing) propaganda in it truly need to pick up a book or two and gosh darn it, READ. Hell, there are even memoirs from that time that made it this far (The writings of Thucidydes)

There was a sea battle that happened at the same time

And the last battle of that war was the Battle of Salamis

But this rear back action at Thermopylae was the begining of the end for the Persian Invasion of Greece. If it had succeeed, we probably would not be having this conversation and the idea of democracy would have died from this earth. This is how critical the battle was... adn the ultimate Greek success in the War.

Alexander the Great truly finished the job about a hundred years later when he conquered Persia and the Hellenistic period began

[Leopolds Ghost]

28. Uh, you've got it (almost) backwards.

The idea of democracy was a tribal concept present in Europe, Africa,
Native American civilizations in which climate and geography favored
the disorganized production of an agricultural surplus in small,
isolated tribal areas.

This allowed a flowering of culture in these areas

Alexander the Great "finished the job" XERXES started by destroying the Greek city-states (which had existed for a millenium) and invading Persia.

He is one of the most hated figures in Greece, contemporary and today.

He destroyed Athenian civilization (the Romans and Napoleon finished the job) and completed the integration of Persian and "Hellenic" art and culture.

The old, alien European tribal notions of democracy and honor culture were banished to outposts like Germany and Britain, where they were resurrected by equally-alien cultures such as the Anglo-Saxons whose value systems you would not recognize today.

People were not "like us" back then. The values of settled civilzation we are used to were the values of PERSIA, not Greece.

Thermopylae WAS miraculous, heroic and tragic, but no more so than the Zulu's battle against the invading British, or the Inca's rear-guard action against the Conquistadors, and for the exact same reasons.

[BreweryYardRat]

19. Nope, just a shitty effects-heavy retelling of one of the grandest battles in history.

Which is probably grossing far more than it deserves.

[Bucky]

20. Probably not. Now Frank Miller's upcoming "Batman vs Bin Laden"... THAT's sure to be wingnuttery

When I first heard about it, I assumed it was a joke. I'm trying to imagine what serious author, or for that matter, what serious reader, would be interested in such a lame product.

Besides, everyone knows Stewie from Family Guy already took out bin Laden two years ago.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Actaully it may be

quite a bit of ahem sarcasm

Miller is not known for doing things that are straight forward

I'd have to look at the graphic novel first, since he tends to have his work recreated almost frame by frame on the screen

[Norrin Radd]

24. It will probably look something like this:

http://www.poe-news.com/forums/sp.php?pi=1001129877
;)

[seemunkee]

40. That is hilarious

[Redneck Socialist]

33. Please tell me that's you made that up

Batman vs. Bin Laden?! You gotta be fucking kidding me!

[lies and propaganda]

23. i will just quote you verbatim...

cant even believe the asinine posts Ive read from people who must have watched with both eyes and ears closed ...

[intaglio]

25. Not RW propaganda

Unless they plan to adopt the Spartan attitude to homosexuality in the armed forces; ie nearly compulsory!

BTW does anyone know if the film mentions the 700 Thespians who fought alongside the Spartans?

[ButterflyBlood]

30. Yeah, they're shown

There's an Athenian unit that provides backup to them. The commander mocks Leonidas for not bringing as many soldiers as he does. Then he asks some of the Athenians what their occupations are, they are potters, sculptors, blacksmiths, etc. Then he asks his own men what their occupation is and they all give Spartan shouts. He then says "I brought more soldiers than you".

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. Yes, and so is "Two Towers" and "Saving Private Ryan"

Even though both were good movies, the pro-war message tacked on by the directors was utterly fucking retarded.

And the message of a movie is the part that sticks with you (see: Unforgiven).

[ButterflyBlood]

32. Er, pro-WWII is right wing?

Gee, it was actually the right wing America Firsters that tied FDR's hands and allowed Hitler to flourish I believe.

And I don't think you can put the Middle-earth in a right/left context.

[Beelzebud]

34. If someone doesn't like films that deal with violence and war, perhaps they shouldn't watch?

Weird concept I know, but it just might work! :D

[ButterflyBlood]

36. True. No need to bitch about it like a certain Senator from CT...

Oh, I wonder how much these anti-300 folks know how much they actually resemble him. :)

[truebrit71]

37. Saving Private Ryan was "pro" war? Are you out of your mind?

Unless you are talking about a different movie than the one I saw, that has to be the DUMBEST thing I've read all day...

[LostinVA]

39. I totally second that

[LostinVA]

38. Saving Private Ryan is completely anti-war

There is no way to watch the first 20 minutes and correctly say that.

And, both Tolkien and Jackson were/are anti-war. "The Two Towers" is TOTALLY about the horribleness and waste of war. The dead elves? The young boys being made to arm themselves and fight until they die?

Bah.

[AtomicKitten]

29. Battle of Thermopylae

The Battle of Thermopylae took place during the Greece-Persia war in roughly the 5th century BC. Some 30 city-states of central and southern Greece met in Corinth to devise a common defense (others, including the oracle at Delphi, sided with the Persians). They agreed on a combined army and navy under Spartan command, with the Athenian leader Themistokles providing the strategy. The Spartan king Leonidas led the army to the pass at Thermopylae, near present-day Lamia, the main passage from northern into central Greece.

One of the best points at which to hold off an invader was at Thermopylae, a narrow valley adjacent to the sea. The attacker could not pass to the seaward side, and to go inland would mean a significant detour. Other armies could risk this, but Xerxes could not.

On the other hand, a defender could take a stand with comparatively few men. A wall had once been built here, and a small fort. The Greeks rebuilt the wall and waited.

The Greek strategy was to delay the land force and to defeat the Persians at sea, then starve the Persian army. It should have worked, but from the beginning everything seemed to go wrong.

To begin with, the Greek army was surprised to see the Persians arrive so soon. They had hoped to get more reinforcements. On the other side, Xerxes had excellent information and knew that the Greeks were waiting for him. He set up camp on the plain below the pass. He was confident, but the army was so large that it could not afford to wait in any one place for very long.

He sent scouts up the valley to ascertain the nature of the opposition. The Spartans had duty on the outside wall, where they were waiting watchfully. The scouts were astounded to see the Spartans doing calisthenics and braiding their hair. Xerxes could not believe they intended to fight against hopeless odds. He announced his presence and waited four days for them to leave.

The Greeks did not leave. Exasperated, and aware of his supply situation, Xerxes ordered an attack on the fifth day. He sent the Medes against the Greeks, ordering Spartans be taken alive, so confident he was of easy victory.

The Spartans retreated, running away, even to the point of turning their backs on the enemy. The Medes, sure that they were winning the victory they had expected, broke ranks to pursue, whereupon the Spartans turned and fought savagely. After sharp fighting, the Medes were defeated.

Xerxes now sent in the Immortals, his best troops. The Spartans employed the same strategy, with the same results. Xerxes was furious. Another day's fighting yielded no better for the Persians.

The fighting was all the more remarkable in that the Greeks had failed utterly in the sea battle and the Persians had complete control of the sea. The sole purpose now for the battle was to delay the inevitable as long as possible.

At this point, treachery undid their heroic efforts.

Ephialtes, a man from Malis, went to King Xerxes and told him that he knew of a goat path that went around the Greek position and debouched behind their lines. After initial skepticism, Xerxes discovered the man was telling the truth. He made his preparations.

The Greeks knew of the path, of course. There were, in fact, more than one path, winding among the mountains. The men of Phocis were posted on the most likely path, but the Persians slipped past them by way of a different path under cover of night.

The Greeks learned of the treachery near morning. They would barely have time to escape from the trap. Leonidas told the other Greeks to return home, to fight another day, but the Spartans stayed. The Thespians and Thebans joined them. There were no more than a few thousand who stayed.

Greeks knew they were about to die and they fought all the more fiercely for it. The Spartans put up the stoutest resistance, taking their stand on a little hill and fighting in a circle facing outward with enemies all around.

When Leonidas was killed, he was some distance away. Some of the Spartans formed a tight group, fought their way to his body, picked it up, then fought their way back to the main group on the hill.

The Persians seemed utterly unable to annihilate the last 300 Spartans. They demanded the body of Leonidas in return for the Spartan's lives, but the men refused to abandon the body of their King, declaring: "A Spartan leaves the field with his shield or upon it"

At last, the Spartans were killed by a hail of spears and arrows, the Persians fearing to close with these fearsome warriors.

1962 "300 Spartans"
http://www.amazon.com/300-Spartans-Richard-Egan/dp/B0001NBMDK

[Beelzebud]

31. Only if you're a moron.

[treestar]

35. Why does it matter?

Why is it so upsetting?

If someone wants to declare it RW propaganda, so what?

[ButterflyBlood]

42. I'm glad to see most people here aren't that ridiculous

Too bad some people have to find politics or ulterior motives in EVERYTHING.

[AnnieBW]

43. True Warriors Defending Their Country

The Spartans were true warriors defending their country from a much larger invading force. The Spartans were pretty much the ancient Hellenic equivalent of our Special Forces, SEALs, etc. The Athenians, OTOH, were "citizen soldiers" like our reservists. The Spartans were a highly militaristic culture that eventually died out because of their inability to adapt their style of warfare to take advantage of technological advances. Thermopylae was seen as their greatest moment.