Did anyone hear Watada on NPR today

[Sailor for Warner]

I know I will be blasted for this but the good LT still makes my blood boil.

Does anyone else that heard the interview have thoughts?

[atreides1]

1. but the good LT still makes my blood boil.

Why, what did he say?

[Sailor for Warner]

3. I have mentioned this in the past

I think it is despicable for an Officer to do what he did. He let down his unit and his men. I can go into more detail but I am not in the mood for the flame war. I hope he goes to jail for all 10 years.

[BOSSHOG]

2. I hear ya shipmate

but he is being courtmartialed. Let him have his day in court. Maybe he can pretend to be a "conservative" and blame the Army for not training him properly to not criticize the commander in chief in public. Ergo, not take responsibility. However he has not done that yet.

[Sailor for Warner]

4. Eh Whatever, he would be a non-entity to me

But he keeps talking. I wish they could justify pre-trial confinement, he is a flight risk there at Fort Lewis. But I think everyone knows hes going to stay and face the music and not run to Canada like some others. I have to give him that.

[BOSSHOG]

6. He hasn't fled yet

I would appreciate your posting your specific objections to his behavior. I would be opposed to the LT as well if he were not in a position to be judged for his actions. He may soon be headed to the brig for a couple of years awaiting a dishonorable discharge. I would have rather worked for him, then to have the drunks, wife beaters and hot check writers amongst others that worked for me when I was proudly serving in the canoe club. They caused a great deal of time and monetary loss to the NAV. The UCMJ will wend its way through this story as it has thousands of others before.

[Sailor for Warner]

7. Sorry didnt mean to offend

I know there are plenty of scumbags, Ive worked for a few myself. But I dont think that he will get the fulle measure of military justice because of his celebrity and the pressure that his apologists will exert upon their representatives.

Sorry I am in and out so I do not have time to shoot out the long posts but that is my biggest objection right now.

[RoseMead]

8. Sounds to me like

Lt. Watada's attorney expects him to receive a heavy sentence. If the Army really wants to make an example of him, I'd think his "celebrity" would be a detriment for Watada, not an asset.

I respect the man, for acting in accordance with his conscience in defense of the Constitution and the rule of law. The war *is* illegal, regardless of this particular judge's ruling, and I am confident that history will record it as such.

BTW, you want Watada to serve *10 years* in prison for his actions??? Good Lord, William Calley only served 3 1/2 years for My Lai!(I know he originally got a life sentence, but in the end he only served 3 1/2 years.)

[Sailor for Warner]

11. I think he should have been executed for My Lai

I dont see the connection.

[RoseMead]

15. You're right, the comparison is faulty

But the point I was trying to make is that some soldiers have received much more leniency in sentencing than what you're wishing on Lt. Watada, and for much more serious offenses.

This man isn't a coward, and he isn't abandoning his duty - he's trying to do his duty by upholding the oath he took when he became an officer. Wishing him the maximum sentence seems really harsh to me. I expect you'll get your wish, however.

[Sailor for Warner]

17. I expect I will not

Next to murder, or other combat related crimes, I consider abandoning your men to go off and fight in a country where you know at least some of them are going to be killed is one of the worst things a military officer can do. It is the worst type of dereliction of duty. No matter what happens to him here, he is not going to be killed.

[Postman]

72. "abandoning his men" - sounds like a right-wing talking point...

He wasn't "abandoning his men". He was doing his duty in refusing to deploy in an unjust, immoral, unethical and illegal war based on lies.

He was setting an honorable example that many, many others, (if they had half the guts Watada has) should have followed..

Let me ask you, soldiers should follow orders no matter what the circumstances? Whether the orders are just or unjust? What's the use of taking the oath unless they expect you to make those kinds of judgments? Why have an oath at all?

If he's guilty of anything, maybe it's "missing movement" not "abandoning his men"...

I wonder why they didn't charge Bush with UA or Desertion back during the Vietnam days?

[Sailor for Warner]

73. Bush's Unit never deployed as I recall, it was never called up

But as to it being a right wing talking point... I wont even respond to such a worthless slur.

He is LIKELY guilty of missing movement and speaking out in public criticizing his COC. That is for the Court Martial to decide.

He is an officer in the U.S. Army, he has a responsibility to his men, that is all I will continue to say about that. He may have conviction, but hes not brave. Not in MHO.

[Postman]

76. Whatever.

You still didn't answer any of my specific points. As for Bush....
http://www.factcheck.org/article254.html


It takes more guts to stand up to these fascists than to salute like a lemming and jump over the cliff like soo many others.

Unlike those who probably put their careers ahead of their convictions, he had the BALLS and the GUTS to say NO to illegality.

Following orders, no matter what the consequences, are what got NAZI military officers hung at Nuremberg. There is a vehicle for people like Watada to use in his defense of his actions, it's called his military oath.

But like a lot of things in the US where people like to spout off about how "free" we are and how we have all these so-called "rights", as soon as someone actually puts those words into action, for example refusing to fight an unjust war, or protesting an unjust war, there's always someone there to point the finger and call someone "un-American" or "insubordinate" or "you don't support the troops" or "he should be court-martialed" for refusing to follow orders in an unjust war.

These somehow happen to be the same people waving a flag and spewing how great a country we are and how we have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

Not only are you people sick, you're living in a fantasy land.

[Sailor for Warner]

77. Yes I did

Whether or not he disobeyed an illegal order, he still CRITICIZED HIS COC IN PUBLIC. A clear violation of the UCMJ.

He is an OFFICER IN THE U.S. ARMY he agreed to live under the UCMJ, he made a conscious choice to ignore the UCMJ and disobey an order and critisize the chain of command. He has to face the consequence.

By the way, I have honorably served my country for 8 years and I will happily live in my fansatsy land, if it means I will live up to my obligations to the people under my command.

[Postman]

78. Great. So your honorable service is supposed to be some grand coup-de-tat...

to this exchange? Some kind of trump card for your argument?

Guess what General Patton, I served honorably too. What does that mean. Nothing.

Yes. He will pay the consequences for his actions. He's got more guts in his pinky than George W. Bush and the rest of the "I had other priorities" Dick Cheney have in their entire bodies.

The man is a hero for taking a stand against wrong, as he saw the facts before him laid out.

Blind adherence to some stupid "code" is what gets people killed. It is blind obedience to orders that allows people like the neo-cons to start wars on lies.

It is people like Watada that puts a stop to tyranny.

[Bonobo]

79. You keep going back to your fall-back position -supporting my men, etc.

As an officer, does one's responsibility to the "men under you command" supercede your responsibility to the country, to the constitution?

I bet all the soldiers over there are similarly focusing on "saving/protecting their buddies" much like you seem to be. While that's kind of admirable on a sort of "fraternity/mentality level", do you honestly think that level of thinking is what's gonna keep us from descending into a dictatorship? Shit, with that kind of "brotherhood" crap, I see no reason to believe that you, Mr. Sailor, wouldn't be ready to turn those guns on us when/if we ever have to bum rush the White House to force out such a dictator.

Anyway, I don't entertain the notion that you will change your mind soon, but we'll still be here when/if you do.

Please just don't shut off your entire brain. It's okay to make mistakes and then change your mind. That's being human. We won't say we told you so if you do. Maybe.

[Sailor for Warner]

80. Its not my fall back

He committed a violation of the UCMJ, even if it is justified (and I wont say what I feel because it is inappropriate and illegal) he still must stand trial and face the music.

[Postman]

81. No one is censoring you, but yourself.

Okay. We agree he committed a violation of the UCMJ. That's granted.

However, there are REASONS why a person disregards the law and acts on behalf of sanity and reason.

I wonder who is more comfortable with themselves, LT Watada or this young man...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x61994

[Bonobo]

82. Could you answer the question maybe?

[Sailor for Warner]

86. My obligation is to the constitution and I have

Not been involved in a conflict which I have seen to be in violation of the constitution. Nor have I been given an order to do anything that is (in my view) in violation of the constitution. The Constitution is what I swore my allegiance to but my responsiblity is to my men. All this rhetorical BS is secondary to the fact that he remains here in the U.S and the men/women that trusted him as their leader are still going to Iraq to fight and die.


I hope this answers your question.

[roody]

91. He is being the best example of what a person should be.

They could be as brave as he is and follow his example. Who is going to end this f****** war?

[liberalhistorian]

32. True justice would be for him to

be freed and this ridiculous trial stopped NOW.

[Sailor for Warner]

34. How is this trial ridiculous

Even in the theory of civil disobedience, he still must face the consequences of his choice, I dont understand why everyone here thinks that just because you agree with him, that he deserves to be exempt from the law. An Article 32 hearing has determined that enough evidence exists to charge him. Therefore he will be charged. The UCMJ is there for a reason. If people diobeyed orders with no consequence, there would be no point.

[Unperson]

26. Isn't it his his duty to disobey orders, if the order is illegal or unconstitutional? n/t

The Iraq War is an illegal war.

[alarimer]

5. Good for him

At least somebody is standing up against this immoral, illegal war. Too bad they don't all refuse to go.

[Sailor for Warner]

27. Man I wish I could refuse every stupid order ive been

given since I joined up

[conscious evolution]

35. Stupid order or illegal order?

Obeying illegal orders is a war crime.Are you sure you want to be a war criminal?
Remember the Nuremburg Tribunals?They set the precedant that "I was just following orders" is not a valid defence when it comes to war crimes.

[Sailor for Warner]

36. Well I suppose we will see in a court of law

If Watada being ordered by the commander-in-chief through the SECDEF to deploy with his unit as it was his duty to do, was a war crime. Stupid/Illegal distinctions aside. You disobey ANY order, you still have to face the consequences in court marital, so I dont understand why everyone here keeps saying the trial whould end now.

[gratuitous]

9. So I take it you're okay serving in this war?

Apparently Lt. Watada didn't think this was what he signed up for. He doesn't see participating in this action as serving or defending the United States, and he's not willing to just shut his mouth and serve his hitch, hoping against hope that he doesn't wind up having to face the awful choice that the young men from Kentucky are facing: Ordered by their superiors to gun down unarmed civilians in Iraq because they had the misfortune of being males of military age.

[Sailor for Warner]

12. Whether or not I am ok with this war

Is not on the table, nor should it be because it is against the UCMJ. It is not my job to make policy and it is not my job as a military officer to decide I no longer wish to live up to my oath and will abandon my men to their fate in Iraq bcause they cannot afford to just decide which war I am going to fight in today. I am sorry, my politics are well known to everyone, but I do not make statements in violation of the UCMJ. He should go to jail for the crime he committed, if he is found by a court martial to have committed that crime.

[gratuitous]

16. Lt. Watada seems willing to pay that price

I don't see why it makes your blood boil that he has looked at the same situation and come to a different conclusion than you have. And he has determined that his personal honor and integrity are worth more than following a madman. I wish there were more officers like him.

[Sailor for Warner]

18. He left his men

In a time of war, I would shudder if the military had any more officers like him. We are not robots, but we have a certain measure of obligation to those we command as well.

[gratuitous]

22. Well

From everything I can see, we are in a time of war, and Lt. Watada has taken a course of action that, if followed by more of the military personnel, would stop this madness overnight. Thousands have deserted according to reports I've seen, and Watada has at least stood up and for himself and thousands more like him has said "Enough." The United States was not and is not threatened by Iraq, and we've greatly deteriorated the situation in the Middle East. Our continued presence merely exacerbates that situation.

I still don't know why it makes your blood boil that he's trying to extricate his men from a meat grinder, and trying to stop more of them from dying meaningless deaths and inflicting meaningless deaths. Violence will never drive out violence, and the darkness of this situation our country has created cannot be overcome by more darkness.

[Sailor for Warner]

24. He is not doing it for his men n/t

[rman]

84. Ultimately that's not what war is supposed to be about anyway

Although i do realize it's why many folks stay rather than leave - it's what got Casey Sheehan killed.

[Peace Patriot]

10. I would like to see Ehren Watada become President.

He is the best of the best.

[Disturbed]

13. It is a soldier's duty to refuse unlawful orders.

Since the Iraq Invasion was Illegal the US Occupation is Illegal. Refusing to deploy to Iraq is refusing to follow an unlawful order. Isn't that his stance?

[Sailor for Warner]

14. Ill try to get back to this one later

My wife just arrived home, its dinner time :0

[Sailor for Warner]

19. Yes his defense

Is some sort of "I swore allesgiance to the Constitution not any man" argument." However, the primary point of that clause comes with the implication that I will refuse to follow the orders of the commander-in-chief if I disagree or find them to be unlawful, however, if others do not share my conviction in the military, I will have to face military justice. I can make a spot choice about the lawfulness of an order in combat, but I sure as hell had better be ready to defend it before my court martial later. Military Justice will take care of him, as they should.

[Kickin_Donkey]

20. You're just another "good German" ...

Follow orders no matter what.

Watada has more conscience and he's more moral and braver than you'll ever be -- a lock-stepper.

He's a hero. I donated to his legal defense.

He's one of the people like Cindy Sheehan who are trying to end this war, so his fellow soldiers don't have to die needlessly.

But, no, you'd rather have them march mindlessly off and die in a war for some misplaced sense of "honor."

[Sailor for Warner]

23. Yeah hes real brave

Marching off to a nice safe jail while his men go off to die. He is not doing anything but staying home.

BTW, I do my job, if I am immoral and a coward (as you have just implied) than the whole military is.

[Unperson]

28. Nice try at the bait & switch.

You're arguments are transparent as is your raison d'etre. Why are you here?

[Sailor for Warner]

29. I am here because I have been a Democrat for years

But just because I wont fawn all over Watada, I get blasted. I really do miss the boards when I am gone but I am sick of people questioning my credentials because I refuse to critisize the president in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief, BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL FOR ME TO DO SO, as it is for LT Watada.

[Bonobo]

21. You start a post and don't want comments? Here's a non-mil opinion...

I couldn't care less that some people think he has no right to speak out cause he's in uniform, blah, blah,

Either the military exists to protect the nation or not. Can't have it both ways.

If "Just following orders" was a reasonable excuse, the Nazis never would have gone to jail either.

So if the mil has brainwashed its victims to keep their mouth shuts, I'm sorry for it.

But I congratulate this man, not condemn him, for his clarity of vision.

[Sailor for Warner]

25. I would like to know the exent of his "clarity of vision"

I am a little unclear as to what he expects to accomplish by refusing to move with his unit and making comments about his chain of command...

At least Sen. Kerry had the decency to finish his tour and wait until he was no longer subject to the UCMJ before he began his criticisms.

As I see it (keep in mind that I am not a lawyer) he meets all the conditions in the MCM for the charges which are preferred against him.

[liberalhistorian]

49. He offered to be deployed to Afghanistan instead of Iraq,

because he believed that that is where our fight is and where the focus should have stayed. He would have been in just as much danger in Afghanistan, so it's not a matter of lack of bravery. He knew Iraq was an illegal war and that it was his duty to his country not to participate in perpetuating it.

[Sailor for Warner]

55. Well he said that when he joined he

"believed in the mission in Iraq, that they had WMD." So what is the story?

[liberalhistorian]

50. Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself!

And my uncle was a Marine in the front lines in Vietnam, and he says that he wished more soldiers had done something like this at the time. Not all military people are against Watada.

[Sailor for Warner]

58. I am against Watada, yes

But, to say he should not be court martialed when he clearly violated the UCMJ, that is ridiculous.

[liberalhistorian]

95. The UCMJ also at one time believed

in court-martialing, imprisoning and punishing gays simply for being gay, while they allowed rapists to be honorably discharged. So forgive me if I refuse to bow down before the almighty UCMJ. The Germans thought they were just obeying orders, as well.

[Sailor for Warner]

96. I love the German Argument

You may follow the analogy and contend what we are doing is Genocide. etc, but I dont buy into that party so I will just agree to disagree on that. As for your reference to the UCMJ. There is no court-martial procedure for "simply" being gay, there is a sodomy charge. The UCMJ has not changed in this regard. Homosexuality has been dealt with as an administrative procedure for a hundred years. Also the UCMJ is one of the few law codes in the world that carries the Death Penalty for Rape, anyone who recieves an honorable discharge after being convictecd of rape is unacceptable. Id like to see references to that affect, if you please. I will bow down to the UCMJ all I please, it is an outstanding system, flawed but better than a huge volume of civilian law.

[liberalhistorian]

97. I'll take civilian law any day, thank you very much.

Civilian law doesn't demand court-martialing for adultery or sodomy, which is total bullshit. Try to justify it all you want, but it can't be done.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Lt. Watada's the bravest man in the Army.

If all the troops were as brave as him the war would be over by Febuary.

[TahitiNut]

93. And if We The People were half as brave ...

... the 'war' would have never started. The 'courage' of the troops can never be enough to overcome the cowardice of a People who won't take back their own democracy, by whatever means are necessary.

[liberalhistorian]

31. Yes, I heard the whole thing and the thought of his

spending even one day in jail makes me truly sick. He's a true hero, and we need many more just like him.

[Sailor for Warner]

33. He violated the UCMJ

Even if you use the defense of refusing an illegal order, in my mind he is still in violation for making disparaging comments in public about his chain of command, he has no defense and needs to go to jail and/or be punished.

[retread]

37. Waist deep in the Big Muddy. And the big fool says to push on!

It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That's how it all begun.
We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.


The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?"
"Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
'Bout a mile above this place.
It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We'll soon be on dry ground."
We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.


The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim."
"Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie,"
The Captain said to him.
"All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I'll lead on."
We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.


All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain's helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, "Turn around men!
I'm in charge from now on."
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.


We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper
Than the place he'd once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.


Well, I'm not going to point any moral;
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.


Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!


Words and music by Pete Seeger (1967)
TRO (c) 1967 Melody Trails, Inc. New York, NY

[Sailor for Warner]

38. Nothing like being called a fool for doing your job n/t

[Karenina]

39. When "doing your job"

consists of committing genocide and not questioning what you are beind USED to perpetuate, the ice gets thin. Too many are paying the ultimate price for this madness. I recommend Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket."

Your anger would be more wisely directed at those who are so heinously abusing your trust and dedication.

[Sailor for Warner]

42. Look up genocide in the dictionary

And show me specifically how that applies to what is going on in Iraq. I will not publicly state what I THINK of the war because that would be ILLEGAL but I will tell you, I would not think it is genocide even in the slightest. But keep on going with that line of thought and see how many people take you seriously.

[Sailor for Warner]

43. Here I did it for you

gen·o·cide /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.



Which national, racial, political, or cultural group are we systematically exterminating in Iraq? The Arabs?
Shiites?
Kurds?
Sunnis?
Persians?
Muslims in General?

Please tell me (provide sources)

[retread]

40. "Just doing my job" also works for the "enemy"? Or just for

the good guys?

[Sailor for Warner]

41. Both sides, that is what war is about

unfortunately

[retread]

52. In your opinion, are there any orders you would be justified in refusing? n/t

[Sailor for Warner]

53. Of course there would be

Firing on civilians or persons who I do not feel are connected to insurgents. Sinking a fishing boat for getting in our way, etc. If I refused any of those orders, however, I would fully expect court martial to explain my actions.

[retread]

62. You would trust your judgment over that of your superior officers? You make

a moral choice that differs from your orders. Isn't that the case here also?

[Sailor for Warner]

64. Yes but my point was and continues to be that

He must stand trial for the refusal of an order, it is up to the Court Martial to determine if that order was lawful, even then though, he still criticzed his COC in public. He will go to jail for that and should.

[retread]

83. You have no quarrel with his contention of an immoral war hence his right/obligation

upon realizing the immorality of his orders to refuse them? Your point is he should be punished for his actions? Or is it that he should be willing to be punished ?

[Sailor for Warner]

87. That he must stand trial for what he did

Which he is indeed doing, and I do give him credit for it. I cant stand it when people say he shouldnt stand trial or that this "foolish trial" needs to end. He must stand trial, otherwise the entire militayr disciplinary system mean jack.

[retread]

51. In this song the fool is the one giving the order. n/t

[Sailor for Warner]

56. So what is the person who follows the fool supposed to be? n/t

[rman]

85. doing your job blindly is foolish

[SanCristobal]

44. My problem with Watada is that

I find it hard to believe he didn't join with the intention of acting as he did. I think a lot of people share this view. He was in college during the beginning of the war, and there was no shortage of anti-war information available at that time. If he had questions about the legitimacy of the conflict, he never should have joined.

[Sailor for Warner]

45. I concur wholeheartedly n/t

[SanCristobal]

46. dumb question, what does n/t mean?

I'm under the impression it means "not", as in I agree... NOT! Sometimes it doesn't seem to be used that way, and I'm a little confused...

[Sailor for Warner]

47. Not it means "no text" as in nothing in message box :) n/t

[SanCristobal]

48. Thank you! Wait, now I'm confused again...

Because you added n/t, which could make this sarcasm, but you also have no text, which could mean no text. I feel like I'm standing between two mirrors and looking both ways forever.:(

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

54. It DOESN'T mean "not". It ONLY means "no text" at least here on DU. Does that

make it less confusing?

[SanCristobal]

63. Yes, thank you.

:toast:

[Marr]

57. Perhaps he considers his duty as a human to take precedence over his

duty as a member of the military. I would tend to agree.

[Sailor for Warner]

59. Well thats all well and good,

I am glad he will be standing trial for making the choice between those two duties and ignoring the one that he has to his men.

[Marr]

60. Well, good for you. You can raise a toast as he pays the price. n/t

[Sailor for Warner]

61. Its either pay the price here

Or pay the price that some of his men will be paying which I bet will be alot higher while he sits safe here in jail.

[Marr]

68. What price are his men going to pay for his absence, exactly?

[Sailor for Warner]

71. He has a responsibility as an officer to his men

and his men/women will be going to Iraq without him and some will likely die unlike him.

[Marr]

74. But not *because* of him.

[Sailor for Warner]

75. Where did I say that they would die because of him

They could if the officer who replaced him was less compitent of a combatant commander. But I dont recall saying such.

[Zhade]

65. I admire his commitment to truth and justice for all - even Iraqis.

He makes my blood...smile. Or something.

Whatever. He's a hero, is what I mean.

[Sailor for Warner]

66. Im sure the men in his unit think hes a great hero too

:sarcasm:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. Bravo for Lt. Watada. We need more like him.

[Sailor for Warner]

69. Sigh

I think we went round about this before Tierra...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. Yes we did...and our positions remain the same. sigh

[SanCristobal]

88. Do you believe Watada joined with the intent to refuse orders?

An open question to everyone. Watada was in college during the beginning of the war, a time when there was no shortage of anti-war material readily available. Do you believe that his claim didn't have serious issues with the war before joining? If he didn't make the assumption he would be part of the Iraq war when he joined he is an idiot and if he had questions about the legitimacy of the conflict that were serious enough to cause him to violate the law, he never should have joined.

I find it impossible to believe that he didn't research the war until after joining and seeking an officers commission. No one makes such a serious decision without doing some serious soul searching before hand, particularly someone with a college education seeking to make on of the armed forces largest commitments by becoming an officer. I personally feel Watada joined with the intent of violating his orders and refusing to deploy in Iraq. If that is true (and no, I can't prove it is, I just have a VERY strong gut feeling) he is a complete scum bag who wasted our nations resources and endangered its well being by undermining out military.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

89. I completely disagree. Knowing that refusing the orders could carry years in prison or worse,

why the hell would he do that just to "waste" some of your tax dollars?

And I mean refusing the orders as he has done, not fleeing, and willingly facing a courts martial without resistance.

[SanCristobal]

90. Beats me. It's a pretty dumb thing to do.

Then again, so is joining the military if you have issues about a war that would prevent you from following orders. Either way he is an idiot. The question is whether or not he is so completely thoughtless as to not consider this before joining, or if he is some sort of cunning idiot who wanted to make a point. Considering he is smart enough to make it through college, OCS and do enough research to conclude that the war is wrong, I doubt it's the former.

[Sailor for Warner]

92. Or there is the other question to consider

That he just finds it a convenient excuse (just playing devils advocate).

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

94. On the one hand you agree it would be dumb to put yourself in a position

where you would be likely to spend years in prison.

On the other hand, the fact that the guy was smart enough to graduate college is "proof" to you that he's so smart he must have done it on purpose.

And these facts aren't in conflict to you.

Have it your way, but we simply disagree. My view is that this is a guy who comissioned in the Army to serve his country, and, as the Iraq war has developed, has concluded that it's illegal and decided it's more consistent with his duty to disobey what he believes to be an illegal order than to comply, recognizing that it's likely to be at great personal cost to himself.

Most people in the military have not come to this same conclusion about the legality of their orders, or if they have, have decided to go along. LT Watada simply disagrees with you and the OP about the legality of his orders.

We simply disagree on our opinions of whether he signed up planning to disobey orders and possibly go to prison for years. We both apparently agree that such a plan would be stupid. Since in each of our cases it's merely an opinion, argument will not settle it, and the discussion is over.