Are 13-year-olds able to consent to sex with adults?

[gollygee]

Poll question: Are 13-year-olds able to consent to sex with adults?

say 27-year-old adults. I don't mean legally. I know it's illegal. This is more of a "should it be illegal" thing. Do 13-year-olds understand and have responsibility for getting into the relationship?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=394637&mesg_id=394637

I am made ill by the fact that people put any blame at all on a 13-year-old who is seduced by an older man. Predators know how to seduce kids and they know which kids are going to be easier to seduce. The kids are victimized. They don't understand at that age how to respond to sexual advances, seduction, etc.

[hlthe2b]

1. Only illegal if

their Freeper Mom and Dad don't sign their "X" to give permission for her to be married....:eyes:
(Child brides not just a phenomenon overseas. even in 2007...)

[wuushew]

2. why not just ask a general age of majority question?

by introducing sex your are biasing the poll.

[gollygee]

8. I specifically wonder whether people think 13-year-olds can consent to sex

not whether they should be able to vote or buy cigarettes. There is an argument that once you are old enough to do one, you should be old enough to do all, but that's not what I'm wondering. And personally I think 13 is too young for any of those.

[Hav]

3. .

Did they have a "sexual relationship" (if you could call it like that)?
I may have missed the latest bits of that story but the last things I heard didn't mention anything about that.
This story just had too many holes. I think it's creepy that this guy who she met in a chat room was there because there are so many sick fucks but I have no idea what they were really doing. If he did something he knew was illegal, I don't know why he should return to their house.


Concerning your question, generally a relationship between a 13 year old and a 27 year old rather sounds sick to me.

[gollygee]

5. For the poll, I'm talking about any 13-year-old and any adult of that general age

who are sexually involved with each other. I'm responding to the posts in that thread where people are blaming the child if there was a sexual relationship. So IF there was one, is she partially to blame? Or is she a victim?

[Hav]

13. .

Of course she'd be the victim. That's why they are seen as kids.
We don't really expect a 13 year old to (always) make smart and correct decisions. We expect it from an adult though that he/she knows better.

[gollygee]

14. Some people at DU apparently feel differently

based on some responses in that thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=394637&mesg_id=397383
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=394637&mesg_id=396080

[Zynx]

15. A lot of revolting comments in that thread. Surpised it hasn't been pulled.

[paparush]

4. I think NC changed its age of consent around 1995 from 13 to 16

I guess that explains many things...

[Coventina]

6. How old was Jerry Lee Lewis when he married his 13 year old cousin?

I seem to remember he was in his 20s, but I don't remember for sure.

[Zynx]

7. Tweens (and younger teens) really have no brain, for most intents and purposes

It's impossible for this to be an equal footing, consensual relationship. It's inherently predatory.

[TahitiNut]

9. Only in Mexico, apparently.

:eyes:

[redqueen]

67. Huh?

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

77. Huh?

:shrug:

[helderheid]

10. I was "seduced" at 13 by someone who was 36. No, I didn't have the capacity to make that kind of

decision. I hated and blamed myself for YEARS and he stalked me for YEARS.

[gollygee]

11. .

:hug:

I'm sorry :(

[helderheid]

20. thanks, gg

:hug:

[Marnieworld]

53. Well I hope you stopped by now

Blaming yourself I mean. You weren't responsible for anything besides homework at that age. :hug:

[helderheid]

63. Thank you

:hug: I have quit blaming myself. Took some time but I worked it out.

[Dorian Gray]

60. You obviously know it wasn't seduction.

He abused you. How awful. I'm so sorry for the pain that relationship caused you.

[helderheid]

62. The reason I used that word is that is what it felt like to a 13 year old at the time.

I felt special and mature because here was this older man interested in me. He also "gave" me my first orgasm. All that can really confuse a girl who later realized he had molested me. The shame was almost too much to handle.

I did eventually realize I was a victim who couldn't have known better at that age.

[rebel with a cause]

125. seduction is the right word for this type of abuse,

and that does not stop it from being a molestation and a rape. As I have said in other posts, child sexual abuser comes in two major types and those are the rapist and the seducer. The rapist is more physically damaging, but the seducer perhaps does more long term psychological damage because the child is made to feel guilty for allowing/even causing it to happen even though they are at no time in control of what is happening. The seducer also uses the word "love" which is confusing to the child because they then attribute the action with the older person's caring for them and if they tell they can feel like they are betraying that feeling.

I am sorry this happened to you, but I am glad you are now in control of your understanding of it. I hope the person that did this to you had some kind of comeuppance in his life. This type of person is hard to understand, and personally they are one type of person that I don't want to walk in their shoes to understand them.

[redqueen]

147. EXCELLENT point.

Thank you so much for saying that. :thumbsup:

[tavalon]

12. Within our culture, absolutely not

But possibly in other cultures. I don't know.

[verse18]

16. Why is there never a poll about what makes 27yo men

seek out relationships with adolescents? Why is the burden of the "relationship" always placed on the victim?

[gollygee]

17. How would that poll be worded?

I have no idea what makes 27-year-olds victimize children.

[verse18]

18. It's not really the poll per se.

It's mostly the focus on the 13yo in the "relationship," not the adult who is a predator. Why aren't we asking what makes 27-year-olds victimize children instead of can a teenager consent to a relationship that is inherently unbalanced when it comes to who holds the power in the relationship. BTW, it's not the 13yo.

Anyone with common sense knows a 13yo is not intellectually and emotionally mature enough to be in a "relationship" with an adult.

[gollygee]

19. One would hope anyone with common sense would know that

unfortunately there are people without common sense here at DU.

[verse18]

22. This is a topic near and dear to my heart.

I just wanted to share this:

Imagine a childhood disease that affects 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 7 boys before the age of 18; a disease that can cause dramatic moods swings, erratic behavior, and even severe conduct disorders among those exposed; a disease that breeds distrust of adults and undermines the possibility of experiencing normal sexual relationships; a disease that can have profound implications of an individual's future health by increasing the risk of problems such as substance abuse, sexually transmitted diseases, and suicidal behavior; a disease that replicates itself by causing some of its victims to expose future generations to its debilitating effects.

Imagine what we, as a society, would do if such a disease existed...

Such a disease does exist; it's called child sexual abuse.


-James Mercy
Originally published in Sex Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment, Vol. 11, No. 4, 3/17-3/21, 1999.

[gollygee]

23. Children have no power in our society

and are victimized at a startling rate.

:hug:

[redqueen]

70. Thank you for posting that. n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

52. Pervasive beliefs

That ALL men have this immutable sexually predatory nature and that the onus is on others i.e., their victims and law enforcement, to deter them. It's complete bullshit and you'd think it'd be counterintuitive to the vast majority of adults who DON'T prey on young people yet when it happens people shrug their shoulders about the perpetrator's motives and try to figure out where the kid or the parents of the kid failed to do their due diligence. The only exceptions might be a same-gender situation or when it's a woman going after a young boy. Although in the spate of recent reports of adult female teachers with their male students it kind goes back to my first point. I think a lot of people just assume that a young boy is delighted to receive sexual attention from an older woman and it won't harm him in any way because how could a male possibly be a victim in any heterosexual encounter?

I don't know if that makes sense because I'm not feeling particularly articulate today.

[Madspirit]

55. Thank-you Verse 18!

I agree with every word you say. I have seen some sad and sick things at DU but this takes the cake. "Let's say it's OK for adults to fuck children." It's really disturbing.
Lee

[redqueen]

69. There are FAR too many DUers with no common sense.

*sigh*

I'm glad you get it, though. :hug:

[Beausoir]

21. Other. Not just "No" but HELL NO.

[rock]

24. No

I'm liberal, but I have ny limits.

[mongo]

25. Probably not

but the issue is far less black and white than most of the responses here indicate.

First of all 13yo's consent to sex everyday with other 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17yo's everyday -- should that be illegal? Is there something inherently different from a 13yo consenting to a 17yo than to an 18yo?

And if 13yo's can't consent to sex at all, what do we do with 2 13yo's having sex? Charge them both with a crime?

Don't have time to do the research today, but there is one Scandinavian country where an adult having sex with a minor can only be prosecuted if the minor wishes it. I think that would be more reasonable, and would still get predatory people charged with a crime, but not the 18yo and 13yo having sex.

[On the Road]

31. It's a Very Difficult Question

you have to parse it the right way:

-Can a 13yo consent to sex?
Sure.

-Does a 13yo understand all the implications?
Not likely, although that can be true of adults, too.

-Should a 13yo be legally allowed to consent to sex?
There are good arguments against it, especially with adults.

-Should consent laws distinguish among partners of different ages?
Basing the answer on whether a 13yo is capable of consent would make such a law nonsense.
But experience shows that are good reasons for singling out partners above a certain age.

The problem is that "consent" is ambiguous. Of course 13yos can consent. But it's unwise to allow them to in situations that are likely to be predatory. The way to do that is to legislate that they can't legally consent, which pits legal and common usage against each other.

[redqueen]

71. SO not true...

MANY minors would not wish their 'lovers' to be prosecuted.

Until they grow up, and realize what was actually going on.

Fucking sick.

[mongo]

100. And that happens today, right?

Adult women press charges for abuse that happened to them as teens and pre-teens all the time.

[redqueen]

120. No, cause there's this thing called a statute of limitations. n/t

[mongo]

132. And in some states it is until the victim turns 28

http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/sol_Illinois.html

[redqueen]

139. Key word "some". n/t

[rebel with a cause]

135. That puts too much responsibility on a 13 year old.

and I am sorry but there is something wrong with an 18 year old and a 13 year old having sex. There is a wide range difference in development between these two ages, and usually there is something wrong with an 18 year old that preys on a 13 year old. According to what you think, it would then be okay for a 13 year old to have sex with an eight year old, there is the same five years difference there. I worked with twelve/thirteen year olds that preyed on younger children. They had been preyed on by adults and now they were turning their anger/hurt on those that could be victimized by them. Most of them had not been raped, they had been seduced. Sometimes by those not related, and sometimes by those in their immediate family.

Let any of you work with these children and then come to me and talk about adults having the right to have sex with children, or even of 18 year olds having sex with a 13 years old. And even 17 is too old (to me) to have sex with a 13 year old. No more than two year difference should be suitable, and three at the max in consideration of child emotional/mental development.

[aikoaiko]

26. Its an arbitrary line, but it needs to be drawn somewhere. 16 is the rule in most states.

*Can* a 13 year old consent? Some probably can in some loose sense of the word, but as a society its important to protect the vast majority who can't with statutory rape laws.

[Madspirit]

27. Wow

According to the votes we have four pedophiles here and three maybe pedophiles.
That's disturbing and disgusting.
Lee

[High Plains]

29. Why do you think anyone who disagrees with you is a pedophile?

[Madspirit]

35. I don't

I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is a pedophile. I think anyone who thinks kids 13 years old are capable of informed consent when it comes to sex, are pedophiles. Much like the APA and the AMA and Amnesty International and Children's Advocacy Groups think.
Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Can 13 year olds consent to sex with other 13 year olds?

[Madspirit]

38. The poll is about adults with children.

It's not called pedophilia when it's two kids.
Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. So then you're saying "yes"

You're saying that 13 year olds can consent to have sex with 13 year olds, right?

Can 13 year olds consent to have sex with 14 year olds?

[Madspirit]

41. Most states

Most states that now consider the amount of years of difference have chosen three years. That is so the pissed off daddy's of 15 year olds cannot toss the 18 year old boyfriend in prison. THIS poll is talking about adults...people legally over the age of 21, having sex with 13 year old children. No one ever said kids should be locked up for having consensual sex with each other. If you are talking about something else, why don't you start another poll?
Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. So an 18 year old isn't an adult?

So then can an 18 year old consent to have sex with a 27 year old?

[Madspirit]

44. 18 is past the age of consent.

I'm not playing this word game with you anymore. Bye now.
Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. What's the matter.

Seeing the flaws in your own logic?

[Madspirit]

50. No, the law is quite logical

I just find you disgusting. I don't engage with sick freaks.
Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Aw, but you see...

I find you disgusting. And I'm still talking with you.

[Quantess]

102. That's different and we all (should) know it.

A 13 year old is not as skilled at subtle seduction, nor is as good at recognizing seduction, as say, a 27 year old adult. It's a different ballgame for adults.

That is only one of several reasons why age 13-to-13 is different than age 13-to-27.

[redqueen]

112. It really is confusing why that argument is made...

the 'well what about with other kids' argument. That's so clearly not the intent of this poll.

[Radical Activist]

178. hmmm

There are some 13 and 14 year olds that, for whatever reason, learned to be pushy and/or seductive enough at an early age. There are also 27 year olds who don't have the first clue about seduction. It seems like there must be a distinction more important than that.

I don't think a 13 year old is ready to have sex with anyone, whatever their partners age. But, historically, that was pretty normal for both men and women, which makes me wonder why that changed.

[sandnsea]

72. I agree

Sick twisted minds. 13 year olds are babies, even if their life circumstances has left them emotionally screwed up. 27 year olds have no business preying on young girls. Perverts, at the least.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. Thinking something might be possible, or should be legal, doesn't mean

that one wants to do it. For instance, one might think that sado-masochistic acts between consenting adults should be legal, but that doesn't mean one wants to do them oneself. So you cannot conclude the people who voted that way are paedophiles (even if you don't think they're trolls who voted that way to screw up the poll).

[redqueen]

97. You're right.

But the analogy you use is misleading.

In the case of sado-masochistic activities, you carefully point out it would be between "consenting adults". That's a very important distinction... why?

So what I mean to say is... lowering the age of consent requires that one re-evaluate what makes one an "adult" able to consent... well... that does lead one to wonder why someone would think that is necessary.

[muriel_volestrangler]

127. Thinking that a child is able to consent

doesn't mean you think the sex is therefore OK. See post #73 for an example of this, in English law. You might also think that a child of 13 is able to consent, but you would rather they weren't able to. It's a common thought that children 'grow up' earlier than they used to, though that is usually in areas other than sexual consent.

[redqueen]

133. Yeah, sorry...

the distinction between 'able to consent' and 'legally able to consent' is annoying to me, in the context of this thread... because IMO it seems to be rather blindingly obvious that the OP was not intending to ask about 'able but not legally able'.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. :shrug:

[muriel_volestrangler]

155. It can also be a question of 'any 13 year old', 'all 13 year olds', or 'typical 13 year olds'

so to have an absolute law saying "no 13 year old is capable of giving consent in any way" may not be as good as a law which defines "informed consent" (which would have to take into account opinions of the emotional maturity of the child, in the eyes of teachers, psychiatrists, and others, and the circumstances of the sex (a case of grooming would be different from a child who sneaks into a club and meets the person for the first time there - maybe unlikely for a 13 year old, but quite possible for a 15 year old).

[redqueen]

165. Yes, I see the distinction for a 15 year old, in that case...

however for 13... any teacher or parent who would testify that that child was able to give informed consent, I would be suspicious of. So... yeah... I would think that it is better to have it apply to typical 13-year-olds.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. I was still very little girlish at 13. I mean I liked boys, but I completely

lacked the emotional maturity for sex.

[BlooInBloo]

30. If "understand and have responsibility" were the standard...

... The human race would die out like that (snap).

[mongo]

88. LOL!

man, ain't that the truth!

[zbdent]

32. Didn't some Repukes think so not long ago?

At least, when the 13-year-old "woman" was raped and killed by the US soldier in Iraq ... hmm, I don't believe that rape is "consensual", but one old congressman said "sit back and enjoy it" a few years back ...

[Gormy Cuss]

33. The better question is whether a 13 year old can give informed consent.

Someone that age can agree to have sex with an adult, but the reason that there are age of consent laws is that below a certain age the typical person doesn't have enough knowledge or understanding to provide informed consent. Sure, some 16 year olds are too immature to give informed consent, but most in our society aren't. That's why it's the age of consent in many states. A 13 year old in our culture on the other hand is far less likely to be able to give informed consent because of a general lack of life experiences. That's why many laws hold adults who have sex with young teens to a different standard than teens having sex with each other.


(the wiki article is a good general description of what constitutes informed consent, for those who may not understand the term.)

[MiniMe]

34. It depends on state law, the states set the age of consent

Having said that, I find it difficult to believe that any state would have the age of consent as low as 13, but I'm not looking up 50 states to find out.

[Madspirit]

37. No state

No state lists the age of informed consent as low as thirteen. You don't have to look up every state. You only have to look up a site with the stats that lists every state.
Lee

[MiniMe]

49. Thanks!

[cboy4]

39. People are actually voting "yes?"

:scared:

[Madspirit]

42. Makes me want to puke

I only wish I knew who they are so I could warn their neighbors because I sure as shit would.
Lee

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colobo]

57. The13 yr. old would not be the pedophile

The adult would...

[Ex Lion Tamer]

61. The adult who is sexually attracted to children is the pedophile.

The adult who believes that a 13 year old can consent to sex is not a pedophile--unless he/she is sexually attracted to children.

Two totally different issues.

[redqueen]

75. Huh? How is a 13 year old NOT a child?

Your post is confusing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. Didn't seem that confusing.

If somebody thinks the age of consent should be 13, instead of, say, 14, that doesn't mean the person who thinks that is attracted to children.

[redqueen]

81. I see the distinction... however...

it makes the reader wonder why someone would like children to be able to consent to sex.

If they're not a pedophile they sure have a lot of explaining to do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. Ah.

The old "you're either with us, or you're with the pedophiles" argument.

[redqueen]

84. No, the "why would you want them to be able to consent" question.

It's a very non-confusing question, I think, and not an argument at all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. I agree it's not much an argument.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the age of consent in... Idaho, was 14.

Now let's say, for the sake of argument, that there was a voter referendum raising the age of consent to 15.

Now, would you suggest that the people who vote "no" on the referendum were pedophiles?

[redqueen]

91. Did I suggest that? No.

I only asked why a person who wasn't a pedophile would be for such a thing.

That's not so hard to figure out, really, is it? The wondering why?

Why are you dancing around that very simple question?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. Sure you did.

You implied anybody who had a different opinion than you on where the rather arbitrary line involving age of consent is drawn is a pedophile.

Frankly, it stinks like a witch hunt. Who, besides a witch, would question the decisions of the Salem magistrates?

[redqueen]

94. No, I did not... I was confused by the post...

the distinction made was not clear enough for me. Mea culpa.

What I did do (which you repeatedly fail to acknowledge, I don't know why) is wonder why people who were not pedophiles would like for children to be able to legally consent to sex.

Do you get it now?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. What do you think the age of consent should be?

And why do you think it should be that?

[gollygee]

200. I'll answer your question

In my opinion, kids seem to have enough understanding of their sexuality where they are able to enter into a relationship on at least reasonably equal footing around 16 to 17. I'd personally make the age of consent 17. At 15 and younger, I think kids are still too young to enter into a relationship *with an adult* without there being too large of a power differential for it to be anything but predatory. 16 seems like a gray area to me because it's right around the age where in my opinion they make that jump in maturity, but I think a 20-year-old is really too old for a 16-year-old and other laws in many states anyway (should be all) make it not a sex offense for a 19-year-old to be with a 16-year-old anyway. 17-year-olds are IMO old enough to have sex as adults.

I think the laws about kids within three years of each other not being prosecuted for these kinds of relationships are very reasonable. So a 15-year-old with an 18-year-old, or a 16-year-old with a 19-year-old, should be treated as just teenage romances. I imagine in many circumstances the parents might want to get involved, but that's an issue to be considered and dealt with in a family setting (and not with guns for god's sake), not in court.

But I also think any 27-year-old who has sex with any 13-year-old is a predator. In every single circumstance. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I can understand people having disagreements about where specifically it can be, but I don't understand how anyone could disagree with this particularly case.

I agree that we don't want to fill up prisons and sex offender lists and whatever else with a bunch of teenagers and their slightly younger boyfriends and girlfriends.

I don't know what you're looking for.

[mongo]

106. God Redqueen

I expect better than that from you.

You don't have to be a pedophile to see shades of gray in the consent laws.

[redqueen]

111. Shades of gray seem to be inserted

by arguments about 'well what about the age of the guy' distinctions. Why are those even there? Is it not clear the question in the OP was about adults and 13 year olds?

Why do people insist on *trying* to make such a black and white thing so gray?

[Madspirit]

79. Thank-you Red Queen

A 13 year old is a child.
Lee

[redqueen]

82. so why would a non-pedophile want 13 year olds to be able to consent?

Very puzzling...

[Ex Lion Tamer]

103. You're apparently the only one who is puzzled.

I haven't seen a single post WANTING a 13 year old to be able to consent. I certainly did not--in spite of your slurs.

That wasn't the question of the poll.

The people voting yes (and I voted no, by the way) could believe that a 13 year old is capable of consent and also believe that the law should not recognize a 13 year old's consent.

[redqueen]

109. Slurs?

Why are you taking this so personally?

Obviously I'm the only dumbass confused by the difference between "able to consent" and "legally able to consent" ... ugh.... this place.

[zappa_parappa]

104. I don't think its a matter of a non-pedophile wanting them to be able to consent

I don't really want republicans to vote, but I wouldn't deny their right to. I think its a matter of thinking they are able to. Theres a big difference between wanting it and thinking its possible.

[redqueen]

114. How is it possible?

How is that idea defensible?

(And I'll add this note, since it seems to be necessary... the OP is not about kids and other kids... the OP is about kids and adults.)

[zappa_parappa]

126. I'm not saying its defensible...

I'm just saying that agreeing that someone can do something doesn't necessarily mean you want them to.

[redqueen]

137. Yeah. And what's the point of making that statement?

We need a clarification from the person who posted the thread.

I wonder if they were intending to ask 'do you think they should be able to (as opposed to legally able to)"

I really am curious now.

[mongo]

113. It's not a matter of "want"

13yos consent to sex every day in this country. Is it not an artibrary line that they can have sex legally with a 17yo, but not an 18yo?

And there are just as many 14,16, 18, 21, and 40yos who are not really capable of giving knowlegable or responsible consent. Should sex with them be illegal as well? Should it be illegal to have consentual sex with anyone with mental disabilities?

[redqueen]

116. Yes, it's arbitrary.

However, it's necessary.

As for your wanting to expand (muddy) this argument by bringing up all sorts of tangentially related issues... thanks but no thanks.

[Madspirit]

115. so why would a non-pedophile want 13 year olds to be able to consent?

That is the question RedQueen. Thank-you again. I notice no direct answers...<g>
Lee

[redqueen]

117. 'Course not...

much easier to try to steer the conversation more amenable to your view of the issue.

It's not a difficult question.

[Madspirit]

128. It's really not.

It seems quite direct and succinct. WHY would a non-pedophile want to lower the age of consent? Simple, straight-forward question.
Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. Heh

Then by all means, somebody answer post #99.

[redqueen]

140. But... you don't answer others' questions...

after continually refusing to answer other member's questions, how is it that you expect that they should still somehow be willing to jump when you say jump, and answer yours?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

142. I'm in the process of answering the question.

When you answer post #99, you'll get the answer to your question.

[redqueen]

144. Yeah,

but no.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

145. Alright then.

I guess you don't really want an answer to the question. That was rather obvious from the beginning.

It's a pretty disingenuous question.

[redqueen]

148. Thanks,

not hungry for bait.

It's a very simple and straightforward question. It shouldn't require game-playing to answer.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

151. Do you think that 17 year olds can consent to have sex?

If so, does that mean you want to have sex with 17 year olds?

[redqueen]

152. Yes, I do...

and no, it does not.

However, are 17-year-olds children? If not, how does asking that question even make any sense?

It all hinges on our perception of the ability of a person of whatever age in question to make decisions about sex. We pretty much all probably think of 17-year-olds as being able to more or less make those decisions for themselves... if not wisely then at least not so poorly that they would end up being taken advantage of too severely. 13 is far from 17, development wise.

So... again... how do these games relate to why it's so wrong and bad of me to expect an explanation from someone who thinks that 13-year-olds should be able to legally consent to have sex?

See what I just did? There up above? I defended my reasons for thinking a 17-year-old should be able to legally consent.

Why is it so shocking to you and a few others that I would ask for at least that much from ANYONE who responds to this poll that they think that a 13-year-old should be able to legally consent to sex with an adult?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

153. How about 16 year olds?

[redqueen]

154. No, I don't think they should be able to.

Now, would you mind answering a couple more of my questions, please? :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

156. Are people who think 16 year olds can consent pedophiles?

That is, do you think their reasoning for why 16 year olds can consent substantially different from your reasoning on why 17 year olds can consent?

[redqueen]

164. Well I wouldn't want to presume...

but I think there's enough difference bewteen 16-year-olds and 13-year-olds that I, personally, would not be so shocked by their opinion that they should be allowed to legally consent.

Go another year down, and I'll be very curious to know their reasons, yes, because IMO that is substantially different. I would not presume to think they are pedophiles... I never said that... all I said was that it makes me very very curious to know why they would reason it out that way.

All right now... I've answered a couple of yours. I aksed at least one or two up there that you ignored. Would you mind please answering?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

182. BECAUSE THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION!

The question is CAN they consent. Not SHOULD they be allowed to consent.

Has there been a single post advocating allowing 13 year olds to consent to sex with an adult? Who are you fighting?

[redqueen]

185. Why are you screaming?

Yes, CAN they consent. And without a direct response by the person who posted the OP, we'll have to agree to disagree on the spirit of the question. (e.g. All that "able to but not legally able to" business.)

Who am *I* fghting? You're the one who's screaming. I'm only discussing.

[uppityperson]

108. so if you think a child is able to consent, that makes them NOT a child?

and therefore it isn't pedophilia because they consented? Seems circular reasoning to me.

If the adult believes a child cannot consent, and you have sex, it is pedophilia for the adult.
If the adult believes a child can consent, it is ok.

[Colobo]

46. That's surprising

If you are an adult and you are attracted to a child, you are dangerous.

[Madspirit]

48. If

If the child is as young as 13, I would find them very suspect, yes. ....and sick-o.
Lee

[uppityperson]

105. I am hoping some aren't reading full OP, just voting on subject line

My initial response was of course kids can consent (meaning simply say yes), but reading the OP, I changed it to hell no, they do not undestand and cannot take responsibility yet.

[Sequoia]

45. I agree.

Blaming the 13 year old girl is pretty low and you've got to wonder what these types think about other things.

[uppityperson]

54. .Too many questions to answer simply, but I voted no. Here's why

They can consent to sex, of course, but they do not understand all the implications and the responsibilities that go along with it. Consent, of course. Understand and be responsible, no.

[Quantess]

157. No, they can't consent "of course".

Not legally, nor in any other capacity can a 13 year old properly consent to sex with an adult.
Here's why: A 13 year old is psychologically easy to manipulate. The 13 year old thinks he or she is making his or her own decision to engage in sexual activity, because the adult knows how to manipulate the kid. Subtle seduction, subtle coercion, bribes, blackmail, making a play to the kid's ego or psyche, "you can trust me", or abusing a role model status, are all tools in a pedophile's playbook.
The adult has had years to practice his/her people skills, but the 13 year old is a novice at subtle people-skills.

[uppityperson]

181. We are in agreement

The only difference is defining "consent". Want to have sex? "ok". is that consent or is consent knowing and being able to deal with it all as you say? 13 yr olds cannot give a valid consent, do not understand, are manipulatable, etc. Just because a 13 yr old says "ok" does not mean it is ok and I agree with you totally..

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colobo]

59. Muhammad and Aisha...

[etherealtruth]

64. I am the mother of a very intelligent, very mature 13 year old girl ...

Under NO circumstances does she have the capacity to consent to a sexual relationship with an adult ... she does not have the maturity or the life experience to make anything approaching an informed decision.

Anyone attempting to engage in sexual activity with a CHILD of that age is a sexual predator.

[Madspirit]

66. A sexual predator

Exactly. Thank-you. I recently turned in a pedophile...a 31 year old having sex with a 15 year old. In my state, the age of consent is 17. Now the 31 year old is wearing stripes as a fashion statement and I'm a very happy person.
Lee

[etherealtruth]

76. Good for you ...

You would be a neighbor I would like to have.

I am hoping that those that responded yes are all 16-17 year olds that think "hey, I'm an adult and was atracted to ... " ... I can hope ...

[demrabble]

65. 14 Is Age of Consent in Many Countries in Europe

Many countries in Europe have established 14 the age of consent.

Which, of course means, that a person who is 1 day beyond being 13 can legally consent to sex.

In some Euopean countries.

[slackmaster]

68. In California the age of consent is 15

But an adult having sex with a 15-year-old is still committing a crime.

[Madspirit]

74. California

California has one of the oldest age of informed consent laws for an adult having sex with a minor. They are really cracking down on it too because of the unwed mother part. Most adolscent girls who become pregnant become pregnant by adult men...another little disgusting fact.
Lee

[redqueen]

80. Ugh...

Are you sure about that? That most adolescent GIRLS who get pregnant were impregnated by adult men?

Just too much sickness... too much.

[Madspirit]

86. I just read it

It's why California is really cracking down. I can google that again for you, if you would like, when I get back from lunch. It's really really icky, isn't it?
Lee

[redqueen]

89. I might try to find it myself, thanks...

"icky" doesn't come close ...

[Madspirit]

101. Some links to stats

Actually the stats are something like 2/3 of pregnant teens are pregnant by adult men:


http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/articles_prevent_teen_pregnancy.asp?showstaticmenu=1

http://www.voterguide.ss.ca.gov/props/prop85/argue_rebutt85.html

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:N5qLdTPP3E8J:www.ss.ca.gov/elections/vig_06/general_06/pdf/proposition_85/prop85_infavor_rebuttal.pdf+California+pregnant+teens+by+adult+men&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

http://www.etr.org/recapp/research/AuthoredPapOlderPrtnrs0504.htm

http://www.ed.gov/pubs/ParentingTeens/chapter2.html


It's worse than icky.
Lee

[redqueen]

123. Thanks... *sigh* Idiocracy...

can't help thinking of that movie...

sad sad sad

[uppityperson]

122. 1 day beyond 13 is 13+1 day, not 14.

Timing would be when the earth is in the same spot relative to the sun that it was when the child was born, but 14 yrs later. Not 13 + 1 day.

[muriel_volestrangler]

73. English law says they can consent, but the sex is still illegal

The law says sex with a child 12 or under is always rape - so the maximum sentence is life.
Sex with a 13, 14 or 15 year old, if they consent, is 'sexual activity with a child' - maximum sentence 14 years for someone 18 or older, 5 years for those 17 or less.

So the law does recognise the ability of a 13 year old to consent to sex, which will make a potential difference to the charge and therefore sentence.

[mongo]

121. Well said.

[Warren DeMontague]

90. No.

However, I also don't think we should be sending 18 year olds to jail for having sex with their 17 year old girlfriends.

[Madspirit]

107. 18 year olds to jail for having sex with their 17 year old girlfriends.

Most states don't do this. Most states require a certain number of years of difference in age JUST so the pissed off fathers of 15 year olds can't toss 18 year old boys in prison.
Lee

[redqueen]

143. I really do not understand why that is repeatedly brought up.

It says right there in the OP... "say 27 year old adults". That, to me, indicates that the OP is decidedly not about kids with other kids.

Very, very puzzling.

[Madspirit]

158. I've wondered that myself

Everyone bringing all sorts of red herrings into the debate. This is about a 13 year old and an adult. That is what the OP was about.
Lee

[Warren DeMontague]

163. Uh, how is answering "No" to the original question "bringing in a red herring"?

Perhaps you can give me a list of the permissible ways in which I am allowed to agree with the OP.

[redqueen]

170. I guess that's a really serious problem,

and we were just ignorant that so many young adults were being unfairly persecuted with these laws.

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

175. You know what? If your kid is the one 17 year old who gets prosecuted and sentenced to prison

for having sex with his girlfriend who is a year or two younger, yes it's a problem.

[Warren DeMontague]

162. Sorry. I guess I'm not allowed to mention anything remotely deviating from the topic of the OP.

I guess you missed the part where I answered "No" to the question in the OP, too.

Problem is, I've seen how well-intentioned "tough on crime" laws end up being used on the wrong folks. The 3 Strikes Law aimed at keeping people like Richard Allen Davis off the streets ends up being used against the guy who steals a piece of pizza or doesn't return his movies to blockbuster. Seriously.

So, yeah- I think in a discussion about the seriousness of violation of age of consent laws- and a 27 year old having sex with a 13 year old is a criminal, no question- I think it's relevant to bring up the FACT that these laws are being used all over the place to prosecute teens having sex with EACH OTHER, or the High school senior having sex with his girlfriend who is a year younger. It DOES Happen.

But if you strictly insist people stick to the OP--- seeing as it was a question with either a "yes" or a "no" answer, I predict this will be a very short thread.

[redqueen]

168. Are they really?

These laws are being used "all over the place" to prosecute teens having sex with each other?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen... all kinds of laws are abused in many different ways... it doesn't only happen with age of cosent laws.

Would you mind sharing some sources for your assertion that these laws are being abused "all over the place"? I thought there were actually protections in place in most states, specifically placed there in order to protect young adult boyfriends / girlfriends from those sort of abuses.

[Warren DeMontague]

173. I don't have time to dig up all the links right now...

However, here's a couple. There have been a number of stories like this in the past few years- often with racial overtones.

http://typographica.vox.com/library/post/genarlow-wilson-10-years-no-parole-for-consensual-sex.html

Five to ten such cases prosecuted a year in Vermont:

http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/03-06/03-25-06/09state-region.htm

[redqueen]

187. I still don't see

that it's an "all over the place" kind of problem.

Yes, there are problems. Did your son get put in prison? Is that why you were cussing at me up there?

[Warren DeMontague]

193. No, and I wasn't swearing at you. I was emphatically expressing that if you happen to be one of the

individuals caught up in this sort of thing, it goes from being "no big deal" to being a very big deal. "Your fucking A" is an expression. No offense intended - post edited so it wouldn't come off that way.

No, I don't personally have a dog in this hunt- although certainly when I was in High School I had more than one girlfriend who was a year younger than me. Fortunately for me, the statute of limitations has long expired, I guess.

Whether or not it's an "all over the place" kind of problem, if ONE 17 year old kid is going to prison for consensual sex with his 15 or 16 year old girlfriend, I think it's a travesty. A travesty which needs justice to deal with it with just as surely as the statutory rape of a 13 year old needs justice to deal with it.

Like I said- I don't have the time to dig up all the links. I'm telling you there have been a number of stories like the one linked in the past few years. Believe me, don't believe me, I don't care. There also was a woman in Texas sentenced to jail for selling vibrators to other women. Frankly, I think this is all symptomatic of Religious Right nutjobs- who would like to make ALL sex for non-procreative purposes illegal- getting a hold of our government.

I really don't see what in my original response brought on the reflexive, knee jerk indignation. I'll state it again:

No. (In answer to the OP)
However, I also don't think we should be sending 18 year olds to jail for having sex with their 17 year old girlfriends.

If there is something specific in that statement you object to or disagree with, please, let me know.

Otherwise, I don't see why my merely making that statement is grounds for outrage. If the question in the OP had been "Do you think people selling meth to schoolkids should go to prison", I think it would be completely reasonable to answer "Yes. But consenting adults who choose to smoke pot shouldn't be treated as criminals". That's defining the boundary where the law should be.

Dig?

[redqueen]

194. I dig...

No offense intended... sorry if my response seemed like outrage... it's really just curiosity.

[Warren DeMontague]

196. Gotcha. For the record, I don't know how I could emphatically express agreement

with the sentiment in the op any more than I did. I could write "No" in a big font, but that wouldn't make for a very interesting thread. Clearly, a 27 year old having sex with a 13 year old is a criminal.

Peace.

[Radical Activist]

172. Because many men

had sex with someone 17 years old when they were 18-19 years old. They don't see anything wrong with it and don't like the idea that they could have been put in jail for it.

Of course, this RARELY happens. Most people prosecuted for these crimes are predators who repeatedly go after children and they deserve the worst punishment.

[redqueen]

190. I thought it was rare, yes...

maybe not, though... I'm far from certain.

And it is unfair when those laws are used this way and I'm glad some states that still allow those sorts of abuses are taking steps to rectify that...

[Radical Activist]

192. Child sexual abuse

is far more common that most people realize or would be comfortable thinking about.

In order for someone to get prosecuted for having sex with a 17 year old when they're 18 or 19, they would have to do something stupid, like seriously anger a parent or the State's Attorney. It is absolutely the rare exception to the rule.

[Warren DeMontague]

159. As it should be. There should be a distinction.

In reference to the OP, no, I don't see how a 27 year old having sex with a 13 year old could possibly be doing something other than committing a serious crime.

[LeftishBrit]

93. No Way; especially not when a much older adult is concerned

I don't think it's acceptable for a 16-year-old boy to have sex with his 13-year-old girlfriend either; but I would regard it as considerably less heinous than for a 27-year-old man to do so.

16 is the age of consent in the UK. A blind eye is often turned (though not by the parents if they find out!) to younger teenagers having sex with one another; but a 27-year-old having sex with a 13-year-old would be treated quite seriously, even if she had 'consented'. That is a serious abuse of power. The relationship between adult and child is too unequal for such sex to be anything other than sexual abuse.

[Madspirit]

110. Serious abuse of power

"That is a serious abuse of power. The relationship between adult and child is too unequal for such sex to be anything other than sexual abuse."


Thank-you! Therein lies the truth.
Lee

[TN al]

95. It's a damn stupid question

[redqueen]

98. You'd think, huh?

You'd be surprised.

[Forkboy]

96. Depends on the country and the culture

I think it's demented and twisted.In other cultures it's perfectly normal.

[porphyrian]

118. Some may have grown up enough, but the vast majority, no. - n/t

[NashVegas]

119. Yes, Just Not Legally, Or, IMO - and More Important - Wisely

A 13 year is old enough to want to engage in sex.

The problem is they aren't old enough to take full responsibility.

How many 13 year olds are mature enough to cope with their own emotions, let alone someone else's?

How many 13 year olds are mature enough to take responsibility for birth control?

How many 13 year olds are mature enough to raise a child?

How many 13 year olds have the financial means to support a child?

How many 13 year olds, when they are more mature, are not going to resent the fuck out of that 27 year old? Or for that matter, in their later teens remain clear on the notion that they willingly engaged in sex in a world where they are relentlessly told that 27 year old was abusing them?

Disclaimer: I was sexually active before 13, and even at that time would never have imagined having anyone older than, say, 15 as a partner.

[slackmaster]

124. A lot of them THINK they are able to consent

But we all know that 13-year-olds think a lot of stupid things.

[misternormal]

129. I don't give a rat's ass...

... what the legal age of consent is ANYWHERE!!!

A 13 year old is not mature enough to give consent of any kind.

On a related note... If a person can not sign a contract... then they can not give consent.

No ifs ands or buts...

[TN al]

130. The yes votes in this poll (currently 13) are disgusting...

...Anyone who thinks that a 13-year-old has the emotional maturity to consent to sex has never had one live in their house. I've seen the question asked "who but a pedophile would want to give a 13-year-old the right to consent?" and I think it is a fair question. The posts defending the yes votes are full of "I'm not a pedophile, but..." If you're not a pedophile than you are a pedophile enabler, or maybe you are just a sexually frustrated 13-year-old yourself who has heard of this thing called sex but aren't quite sure just what it is yet. I have a suggestion for you. Write a LTTE laying out your views on the rights of 13-year-olds to have sex and sign your real name to it. Let your entire community, and your police department, find out who you are. If there is nothing wrong with your point then there should be nothing stopping you from doing that.

[Madspirit]

134. Thank-you!! n/t

[Madspirit]

136. dupe delete

[redqueen]

146. Ah but you see... there's a difference between "consent",

and "legally able to consent"... I'm sure that's what the "yes" votes are about.

:crazy:

[mitchtv]

138. sounds like Strom Thurmond was a real sick fu*k

his paramour was 15 and he was in his 20's

[etherealtruth]

141. "Strom Thurmond was a real sick fu*k"

...on oh so many levels

[redqueen]

149. Too true. n/t

[ecstatic]

150. wow. 8 to 12% of DUers are pedophiles (and /or pedophile apologists)

Shocking actually.

[Madspirit]

160. I got yelled at for making that point.

You better put on your asbestos flame suit. I was sickened by that stat myself. Pedophiles or pedophile apologists.
Lee

[Der Blaue Engel]

161. I'd be interested in the sex and age of those voters

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I have a number of female friends, now in their 30s and 40s, whose first sexual encounters were at age 13 or 14 with adult men. I don't know how they'd vote in this poll, but I know that they believe they made a conscious, informed decision to engage in that sexual contact. Some of them even feel that they themselves were the seducers. They may be wrong in that belief, but they are certainly not pedophiles.

At any rate, for the record, since I brought it up, I am female and 40, and I do not think a 13-year-old can truly consent to sexual contact with an adult. Ultimately, it is the adult's responsibilty to recognize that, since the 13-year-old can't. On the other hand, I have another friend (male) who met (and had sex with) his wife when he was 19 and she was 14. He geniunely had no idea she was that young. He thought she was a college student. So, IMHO, "gray" does happen, though not very often.

[slackmaster]

166. When I was 13 I would have voted Yes in a heartbeat

And I would have been wrong.

[Madspirit]

171. No, they aren't

No, your friends aren't the pedophiles. They are the victims. That's what not being able to give informed consent means. THEY thought they could but by definition they could not. They were children and it was up to the adult to say "NO"...strongly. As adults we are supposed to protect children, not fuck them.

I would have a hard time prosecuting a 19 year old with a 14 year old. ...but they would be prosecutable. You are right though, THAT is a shade of gray. When I personally say adult, at 52, I am not really speaking of someone 19, though technically they kind of are. They can't buy booze but they can be sent off to die in wars. If she was my 14 year old and the guy was 19...I would be pissed but I would not ruin a young man's life for that. There just isn't enough age difference.

This poll was about a clearer distinction. A 13 year old and someone over 21, actually it referenced another story where the girl was 13 and the guy was 27. There is no shade of gray there.
Lee

[Der Blaue Engel]

176. I mentioned the 19 example because I consider it as wrong as 27

My point is that there is a (teeny, tiny) chance that some of the people answering "yes" might be very young themselves, or were in such a situation when they were young and aren't objective enough to see it for what it is.

But that's all the doubt I'm giving them. :)

[samq79]

167. "I'm Chris Hanson...just what are you doing here...?"

[Radical Activist]

169. Is a 13 year old able to consent to sex with another 13 year old?

I think that's the harder question to answer that would stir a little more debate.

[Madspirit]

177. States do have laws that cover this

This is Colorada and just a "for instance". It's probably similar in all states. I am in Texas and I think it's exactly like this. Both kids could have charges brought against them BUT it would be handled as a juvenile offense and so not quite the same as sticking them in prison. They would probably be sentenced to get therapy:

For juveniles who are 16 and 17, having sex with others in their own age group does not qualify as a crime.

Juveniles who are 14 or 15 and have sex with peers can be charged with unlawful conduct with a minor, but the law provides for mitigation when the age difference is less than four years, making the offense a misdemeanor.

For adolescents under 14, though, there are no exceptions or mitigation and they are never considered capable of consenting to sex.


Lee

[Radical Activist]

179. It depends on the state.

I tend to think that a 13 year old is too young to have sex, regardless of the age of the person their having sex with.
I guess I'm wondering if people think its ever acceptable for a 13 year old to have sex, regardless of what the law says.

[Madspirit]

186. If I had a 13 year old

I would not like it if I found out they were having sex. I would do what I could to stop it, short of prosecuting a child. Kids do what they do. I would try talking, etc. It's sad to become sexualized at such a young age. I definitely think 13 is too young. The stats I gave you were from a Colorado case where a 13 year old girl had sex with her 12 year old boyfriend. Charges were brought against both. That is ridiculous and certainly will only further any damage.
There really is no answer here. I think it's too young but I would not take a legal route to stop it. At 13 you can still ground them and supervise them but only to a point. Maybe one of the parents would address this one...if two 13 year olds are having sex, what do you do?
Lee

[RL3AO]

174. Just 200 years ago, 13 was the age to be sold into marriage.

[Madspirit]

180. ...and the average life span was 40. And? n/t

[RL3AO]

183. I was just pointing out how much we've improved as a society.

[Madspirit]

189. ...and we still have far to go. n/t

[JackRiddler]

184. Yes but average lifespan was not legally sanctioned...

Please avoid logical fallacies. Just say that enforced marriage at 13 (or any age) was wrong and I'll agree with you.

[Madspirit]

188. Okey...

I only said that because I didn't understand the point. I will say that enforced marriage at 13 (or any age) was wrong.
Lee

[Madspirit]

191. ...and my answer

My answer was not totally disingenuous. I think the lower life span had a lot to do with the lower age of consent.
Lee

[riderinthestorm]

197. Medically we now know that our bodies and brains only fully mature at 17/18 yrs

We now understand how long it takes teens to fully maturate, physically, mentally, and socially. 13 year olds do not truly understand the ramifications of "consenting" to sex at that age - either with each other, or older teens, or a 27 year old. Their bodies, hormones, and brains are not ready.

[Madspirit]

199. Long bone growth

Some long-bone growth isn't even complete until the late twenties and the hormones have not completely settled until the mid-twenties. That does not mean sex between a 13 year old and a 27 year old is OK. It's immoral, sick, twisted, disturbed, predatory, unbalanced in power and criminal.

I am agreeing with you, just btw...<g> I just think it's interesting how different parts of our bodies develop.
Lee

[ReadTomPaine]

195. Polls like this are freep bait for the hiding trolls.

This site is watched for opportunities to vote up issues that paint all progressives in a poor light. Opportunities precisely like the one this poll provides for detractors.

Heck - even in political polls, when an entry is included either as a joke or an extremity (something silly like 'Lynch them all' in regards to legislative dissatisfaction) there are always a few clicks on the entry. Something like this? Perfect fodder for Malkin and her ilk.

[Madspirit]

198. I was afraid of that

I was afraid of that because they do lurk. On the other hand, we have to be able to discuss ideas without being afraid the Freepers will distort our words. After all, they are going to do that anyway.
Lee

[gollygee]

201. I'm not going to spend one minute of my life worring about WWMMD

"What Would Michelle Malkin Do"

[LaurenG]

202. Locking

This is a flaming mess. Please don't start threads for the purpose of starting flame wars.

Ohioblues
DU moderator