Should we accept that the US is never leaving Iraq?

[NNN0LHI]

Even if we had Dems running everything right now what do you suppose the chances would be that US troops would be completely leaving Iraq?

I think US troops would stay even then.

I don't think anyone is calling for anything more radical than Murtha and even Murthas plan doesn't call for bringing all of the troops all the way home. He is talking about moving them over the horizon. Some to the Kurdish controlled areas. Some to Kuwait. Some to Saudi Arabia. Some to Jordan. Some to huge permanent bases. And some more wherever we can put them where they aren't getting shot and blown up every day.

I used to think we would eventually leave Iraq like we eventually left Vietnam but I have ruled that option out. Vietnam wasn't sitting on top of the amount of oil that Iraq is or we would still be there too.

Don

[rockymountaindem]

1. Except that using the Vienam analogy, we're still in 1969.

If you take the starting point of the Vietnam War as Johnson's 1965 escalation, we're still only in 1969. It's still a long way to 1973, but hopefully we can move up the timetable, if you know what I mean.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

27. It might be 1981

If you take the starting point of the Iraqi war as the 1991 Desert Storm. We're in our 16th year in Iraq.

Varying amounts of heat, certainly, but we never left.

On the other hand, I take the starting point of Vietnam to be around 1956, so maybe it's "1972" in Vietnam years.

My head hurts from all this math.

[rockymountaindem]

28. That's another way to look at it n/t

[LSK]

2. Yes but it would take longer than a year for all the troops to leave

We would have to get the neighboring countries to agree to help the Iraqis end the violence and then find a way to get the Iraqis from killing each other.

But it can be done if we had adults doing diplomacy instead of demented juveniles.

[Disturbed]

6. US Troops and Mercs will be in Iraq for many years.

The largest Embassy in the world is being built in Iraq. It will be protected by US troops and US Mercs. The US still has troops in many countries rotating in and out for over 50 years. Most Americans do not object to US presence in Iraq. It is losing the "War" that is the complaint. If no Americans were being killed in Iraq there would be no complaints.

[shadowknows69]

26. Uh, I'd complain

I suspect a fair number of Iraqis will keep "complaining" too. We WILL leave Iraq for good someday. The same way Russia left Afghanistan. In defeat.

[endarkenment]

12. Wrong again.

"We would have to get the neighboring countries to agree to help the Iraqis end the violence and then find a way to get the Iraqis from killing each other."

That is not going to happen. Setting what amounts to a new batch of victory conditions on our withdrawal is exactly the game the Bush administration is playing right now. We get out by leaving, not by demanding that the Iraqis and their neighbors do what we say.

[LSK]

16. ok, say we leave

And the ehtnic cleansing of Sunnis picks up speed. Say the Saudis or Jordanians move into Iraq to protect their Sunni brothers. What happens when Iran counters this move? Now you have a widespread middle east war. Do you think we will still be able to stay out then?

Also, I am not playing the same game because please explain to me how many times we have tried diplomacy with ALL the countries in the region???

[endarkenment]

20. We stayed out for eight years while Iran and Iraq

engaged in a widespread mideast war. Why would this be any different? Besides I don't think that would happen. I used to think it would, but I suspect that instead a political accomodation would be reached in fairly short order.

[Blashyrkh]

33. Ummmmm. The US backed BOTH sides of that war.

Not so much 'staying out' as 'encouraging' the whole thing.

[endarkenment]

36. Define staying out. We did not have one soldier in that conflict.

You are just being argumentative here. Yes of course we sold weapons and bartered information to both sides. We did not put an expeditionary force on the ground to occupy broad ranges of territory. We did not colonize mesopotamia.

[shadowknows69]

37. Our government practiced its own ethnic cleansing on New Orleans

So any rhetoric on us preventing that in another country as justification for war is completely empty, and more than likely in the eyes of the world as well. Iraq has reached a critical mass IMO that means our presence or abscence has no bearing on the situation. We need to pull out completely and stop meddling in other people's shit for a while. Fix what we need to in our rapidly disintegrating nation and then go try to be the beacon of the world again when we have regained moral high ground to do so.

[CJCRANE]

3. It's gonna be hard trying to pull them out

while * is sending more.

[solara]

4. The US won't abandon the three permanent bases we have built there

So, even if the fighting ends, I imagine we are going to have a permanent military presence in Iraq on some level for years.

We can't let go of all that sweet black gold after all this, now can we? :sarcasm:


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT INCARCERATE :patriot:

[Double T]

5. Yes. The USA will never be able to leave Iraq militarially..............

because if they did there would be an immediate all out civil war and genocide between the muslim factions. bushco has created the biggest monster the USA will ever know and the ongoing financial burden and loss of life is incalculable.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Should we be pushing to make Iraq our 51st state?

The Iraqis might be better off in the long run.

Don

[Double T]

11. Hmmmm..........I'm not so sure about that "better off in the long run".........

part. If we calculate the USA investment in Iraq, then Iraqi oil is probably costing us $2000.00/barrel.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Would the people of Iraq vote to become the 51st State?

I doubt it. And the only way we stay is garrisoned inside a hostile country. No, I can't see this being a longterm tenable position for our military. Hopefully, we'll cut our losses and take the money we are wasting in Iraq and invest in energy strategies here that can make us energy independent from ME oil.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Dunno. Gotta consider attrition.

There's a finite amount of volunteer soldiers, amount of National Guard, and mercenaries. As much as I don't want a draft, I don't believe it is feasible politically. We have to leave when we run out of military or contractors or both.

[NNN0LHI]

10. Never run out of soldiers. Just keep lowering the standards

Thats what we have been doing. Works like a charm.

Don

Edit: We may want to send some Viagra to American Samoa?

http://www.easternecho.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?11694

More troops come from American Samoa than anywhere else in country

<snip>Ironically, it has been in death that Samoans finally have received benefits that equal those of their mainland military counterparts.

In 2005, the Pentagon announced changes in death benefits for troops killed in Iraq or Afghanistan that meant dependents would be paid $500,000 in the event of their service members death.

Up a winding hill on the outskirts of Pago Pago, the widow of Staff Sgt. Frank Tiai, an American Samoan police officer who joined the Army Reserves to supplement his paltry income, sits at a computer in a newly built home office. The window above her monitor overlooks her husband's grave. Talosaga Tiai used the military death benefit from her husband, who was killed in Iraq on July 17, 2005, to start a rental car company she hopes will provide for the couple's two children far into the future.

She now has a fleet of shiny vehicles and a steadily expanding profit margin for her company, Toa Samoa, which translates to Hero of Samoa. She has money set aside for her children's college education.

But her 20-year-old son, who flew to Hawaii to accompany his father's body on its final trip home, has announced other plans: He may enlist in the Marines.

[paparush]

9. Question- How long will Iraq have oil?

Take that number and divide by 1. Add 25% of the total.

That's how long we'll have troops in Iraq.

[leftofthedial]

13. we should accept whatever our masters decide

after all, we are good Democrats, aren't we?

[blues90]

15. No !

They didn't put all the bases their just to leave anytime soon .

It will either be black ops or any sort of military power they can gather up to hold onto what they have built for the last 4 years .

Then there is the oil and the huge energy corps who have us all by the throat .

Iraq and the rest of the ME oil is the US power and control over the world . This is the goal .

[kimmerspixelated]

17. It looks likely that we will stay there forever,

But never under any circumstances accept anything you are strongly against!! Fight it, fight it, fight it!

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. People in the UK probably felt this way in the 20's.

The mighty do fall.

[Stephanie]

19. the whole PLAN was to set up permanent bases

THAT'S WHY WE'RE THERE. Why else would we be building THE WORLD'S LARGEST EMBASSY? The PNAC plan was take Iraq and use it as a strategic stepping stone in a wider war of imperialistic conquest. And just check your leading Dem's website for her approval of the permanent bases aspect. She's all for it.

[SoCalDem]

22. That 'embassy" will become Shia headquarters sooner than we think

Eventually cooler heads will prevail, and we will find a way to leave. But probably not until thousands more have died...on both sides.

We were blundered into an untenable situation. we are the "Infidel" that every arab child learned about from their infancy.

The Europeans "crusaded" there, and got footholds here and there due to world wars, but they NEVER got hold of the mind and spirit..

Unfortunately westerners have never been able to accept the fact that there are zebras, giraffes, kangaroos etc. There are places in the world that just are different..their people are different, their cultures are different, and no matter how many soldiers you send, no matter how much money you spend, they will resist, because they LIKE being who they are..

The pockets of "enlightenment" that crop up in these countries may try to change it from within, but more often than not, THEY Will be the ones to leave voluntarily and go where life suits them best, leaving the culture they could not change, behind.

Middle easterners think in terms of thousands of years. They are patient.. They will war with us as long as it takes. They will win in the end because they understand time.

[HardRocker05]

32. yes, but they expected iraqis to be happy little subjects, willingly carrying out the

orders of their puppet-masters. i think that bushco originally intended to stay forever and there are probably many clueless, spineless dems who will go along with this, but eventually reality will force us to leave.

[stillcool]

21. It depends on who 'we' are...

there will be some kind of presence in the region to protect U.S. business interests, until those business interests pull up stakes. What I don't get, is if we know that there are at least 100,000 contractors operating in Iraq, and 'we' have 140,000 troops, and we've already killed...what's the latest estimate 600,000(?) Iraqi's...WTF is going on? In a country the size of California...I don't get it....shouldn't Iraq be a parking lot already? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=403669&mesg_id=403669

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. We will the same way we left Nam

not volunatarily mind you...

but you get it, we are an Empire and it does not matter who'se in charge, they are acting like we are one

No empire has divested itself from its empire voluntarily by the way

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. The "failed insurgency" may have other plans.

They understand that "body counts", "tonnage of bombs dropped", and declarations of "success" do not victory make.

Much like the NLF and North Vietnamese understood.

[NNN0LHI]

25. You, nadinbrzezinski, and others could very well be correct

I just have been considering the situation and it doesn't appear that the US is going to give up control of Iraqs oil. No matter how many people die in the process. I hope I am wrong.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Not willingly

but no empire divest of empire voluntarily

On the brigh side... historians will be able to say with no doubt when the US went down the road of Empire

Never midn the first steps were taken at the end of WW II and Vietnam was a poor attempt

The date is December 12, 2000

[happydreams]

29. One key difference between Vietnam and Iraq....

The democrats of the Vietnam era were NOT neo-liberals/Trilateralists. If they had been we would still be in Vietnam today IMHO.

[HardRocker05]

31. Gov. Schweitzer (D-Mont) said as much on Charlie Rose the other night; we're there indefinitely

we're there indefinitely, or until we have energy self-sufficiency (i.e. forever), and he was talking about keeping a LOT of troops there. and this is a guy who says he was opposed to the iraq war, but now says that we must stay forever. it is this kind of dem thinking that scares me, because we are going to run this country into the ground in so many ways, chasing that last drop of oil in the middle east. i'm afraid the present crop of dems just doesn't have what it takes to turn this country around.

[KG]

34. one day the US will be run out of iraq. can't happen too soon.

150,000 cant hold off 25 million forever.

[spanone]

35. We're there as long as Oil is in the ground. Until we suck it dry. Why else would Halliburton move?