I sent this to the president - read it before recommending it.

[Joe for Clark]

I do not think we can even begin to think of problems to our south at this point. I do not like Chavez - and I believe if you reward a good behavior as well as dissuade a bad one - that that is smart. Raised too many kids to think otherwise. I really tried to find a good behavior with this guy, especially under the circumstances.

This is my approach to Pavlov's dog theory.

Joe - and I meant every word - it was sincere.

Mr President -

I don't agree with you on too many things. But you did a very nice job in dealing with Mr Chavez recently. Credit is due you on this, and I thank you as an American in the way you handled the situation.

I do not appreciate non-Americans putting their nose in our business - and you did great tweaking that mans nose.

I still think you may well get my kid killed in Iraq - but I am praying this all turns out ok for all of us. And it would be wrong for me to not say this - that you did well with this matter.

[gulfcoastliberal]

1. So it's A-OK for us to launch coups to kill or replace foreign leaders

we do not like, but it's NOT OK for foreign leaders to criticize the president? Ok then.

[Joe for Clark]

4. It is not ok to assume the enemy our enemy is our friend.

Not here and not now. Chavez is NOT our friend. Nor should he be.

Joe

[gulfcoastliberal]

8. Um, in what way? By providing cheap heating oil to the poor in the U.S.?

Seriously, Chavez sells the U.S. the vast majority of their oil.. Your premise is totally flawed and you're not providing any evidence to back it up. USAID funded opposition nearly succeeded in removing him from power in an undemocratic coup. He is a legitimately elected president, unlike *co.

[Joe for Clark]

10. Oh, for gods sake - what do you know about south america??

They don't sell us the vast majority of anything. What they sell us is oil that can be refined in califorinia - with the right gravity.

And I'll tell you - if that man is legitimately elected - than Bush should run for Christ.

Joe

[gulfcoastliberal]

18. OK, South American expert, please explain how Chavez was NOT democratically elected?

Explain why the recall attempt failed. And why the population rose up in furious anger when we tried our little coup d'etat - despite a total news blackout?

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country Jan-07 Dec-06 YTD 2007 Jan-06 Jan - Jan 2006
CANADA 1,851 1,829 1,851 1,768 1,768
SAUDI ARABIA 1,563 1,471 1,563 1,335 1,335
MEXICO 1,435 1,245 1,435 1,701 1,701
NIGERIA 1,106 1,010 1,106 1,133 1,133
VENEZUELA 955 1,045 955 1,228 1,228
ANGOLA 553 610 553 420 420
ALGERIA 548 421 548 235 235
IRAQ 514 419 514 532 532
ECUADOR 258 254 258 373 373
BRAZIL 204 130 204 61 61
KUWAIT 172 163 172 73 73
COLOMBIA 137 74 137 169 169
EQUATORIAL GUINEA 136 48 136 86 86
AZERBAIJAN 86 68 86 0 0
CHAD 70 114 70 74 74

Total Imports of Petroleum (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country Jan-07 Dec-06 YTD 2007 Jan-06 Jan - Jan 2006
CANADA 2,446 2,412 2,446 2,311 2,311
SAUDI ARABIA 1,566 1,491 1,566 1,369 1,369
MEXICO 1,556 1,366 1,556 1,796 1,796
VENEZUELA 1,177 1,271 1,177 1,539 1,539
NIGERIA 1,136 1,066 1,136 1,186 1,186
ALGERIA 778 677 778 713 713
ANGOLA 574 620 574 433 433
IRAQ 531 419 531 532 532
VIRGIN ISLANDS 425 334 425 277 277
RUSSIA 346 369 346 218 218
ECUADOR 261 256 261 380 380
BRAZIL 244 162 244 106 106
UNITED KINGDOM 194 199 194 187 187
KUWAIT 172 169 172 74 74
ARUBA 156 130 156 139 139

Note: The data in the tables above exclude oil imports into the U.S. territories.

Source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

[Joe for Clark]

21. I never said I was a South American expert -

But I bet I know a lot more about it than you do. I definately know a lot more about oil than you do.

Maybe that doesn't say much.

SO what do you really want to know??

Cause mostly, I just want my kid not to die - so I am pretty willing to be forthcoming.

Joe

[gulfcoastliberal]

25. Just a yes or no - do you think we're entitled to stick our noses in other countries

business? Is it ok for us to invade, overthrow, sanction other governments? Are you saying we were right to invade Iraq?

[Joe for Clark]

28. Are you a senator now??

Right to invade Iraq ??--
I'd laugh if it weren't so painful to me.

Joe

[gulfcoastliberal]

30. Nice dodge. You said you'd answer...

nt

[Joe for Clark]

31. Of course I will answer - I am not running for anything.

Were we wrong to invade Iraq? - more than could be said.

It was the single DUMBEST thing this country has ever done.

It will always be the "stupid" war to me - cause it was SO stupid.

Is that direct enough??

Joe

[roody]

33. That man---Chavez?

You are woefully uninformed on the topic.

[Horse with no Name]

52. Jimmy Carter certified that election in Venezuela.

He said it was legitimate. I believe him. There is no doubt. You don't HAVE to like it. You don't HAVE to like Chavez.
But he was elected democratically.
Now if we want to talk about illegitimately elected world leaders...let's start in our OWN backyard.
Something about glass houses comes to mind...

[otherlander]

12. Just one point...

I'm pretty sure the majority of our oil comes from Canada.

[Joe for Clark]

19. DO you really want to know??

The refineries are tooled to run at certian gravities - mostly from west africa, south america and saudi arabia - low sulphur contents.

We have no capacity to run high sulphur oil - like brent - not at all.

That is the truth.

Joe

[gulfcoastliberal]

23. Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly -

Meant that the majority of Venezuelan oil exports are destined to be in our refineries.

[GoneOffShore]

2. No recommend here.

:spank:

[Joe for Clark]

15. I posted that specifically as a warning.

If you do not agree - then do not post - that is why I said what I said.

[Robbien]

3. Wouldn't recommend the thread

First, because I don't agree with the sentiment

Second, because it is a stupid thing to write POTUS about. There are a ton of very worthwhile subjects which need to be brought to GWB's attention and you write a letter patting GWB on the back for being a boor to another country's president. What a waste of time.

[Joe for Clark]

6. So if you don't agree with the POTUS you shouldn't write him??

Is that right??

That is exactly why we are in so deep right now.

Joe

[Robbien]

16. I write my congresscritters all the time

about things they and I disagree about. But each time I write I am trying to get a behavior changed or an action taken.

Your letter just said attaboy GWB you did good by spitting on another country's president.

Gee thanks for sending a letter meant to reinforce bad behavior which just tarnished our nation that much more.

[Joe for Clark]

20. Then you keep on keeping on.

That is not what I meant - and you know that.

Joe

[Robbien]

22. I do not know that.

From reading this letter you wrote, I would assume you are a big GWB supporter because it is full of propaganda falsehoods and congratulates Bush on boorish behavior.

The letter surprises me because from your many posts here at DU I don't believe you like BushCo at all and you usually can see through all the propaganda falsehoods.

Which is why I am posting here saying I would not recommend your thread.

[Joe for Clark]

27. So fair -

I hate GWB more than I can say. He is going to kill my kid - I am pretty sure.

I don't congratulate him on being an asshole - I congratulate him on keeping his mouth shut in the face of events that I could never shut up about - couldn't do it.

In my view he did well to keep his mouth shut. That was a good thing and I told him so - nothing more than that.

You know - if he knows when he does well, he might do more of it - that is my eternal hope.

Joe

[ends_dont_justify]

56. 2 cents

If you were to never let somebody, regardless how evil, know what a good thing is they'd never take that road. The only goods I see coming out of bush are to try to save his ass -- but better he makes fake 'kindnesses' to our country on what we really want instead of his absent minded game of pretend. In that way I agree with trying to get him to see our POV.

That said I think trying to communicate with him, even if you were right in front of him and not filtered out by tons of people who take letters for him, I think it'd be like trying to reason with a sack of bricks. Points on effort though.

[Joe for Clark]

57. You may be right -

I chose to believe that people, given a choice, will make the moral decision.

That the more you can persuade somone what is moral, the more likely that decision.

Probably I am hopelessly naive. But I will not give up hope.

Hope - that is all we really have in the end.

Joe

[ends_dont_justify]

58. Never give up hope

Things can turn good where you least expect them so long as you try :)

[Joe for Clark]

59. As long as we keep trying.

[RagingInMiami]

5. Do you appreciate Americans putting their nose in other countries business?

[gulfcoastliberal]

11. Don't expect an answer.

This type of"we're the best - whatever we do is right" attitude exemplifies right-wing thinking.

[Joe for Clark]

26. Jesus -

Tell me, what do you know of this - you tell me!

Right wing thinking - huh??

How old are you - exactly??

What do you know about a war - exactly??

Joe

[Solly Mack]

7. P.S. Solly Mack thinks you're a piece of shit.

I trust you didn't forget that post-script before sending

[gulfcoastliberal]

9. LOL

nt!

[Vexatious Ape]

13. Chavez has a lot, a lot less blood on his hands then the chimp.

And seeing that we've had our nose in everyones business--especially in Latin America I'm not the least offended by anything Chavez says or does down there.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. I can't imagine complimenting Bush for his conduct re: Chavez.

I'm not a great fan of Chavez -- although he's done some good things for his country, he's a little too much into demagoguery for my taste -- but if you ask me it's pretty damn nervy for any American to complain that Chavez was "putting his nose in our business" when it seems like all the United States, as governed by the Bush Regime, ever does is put its nose in other countries' business. It's the height of hypocrisy to bitch about some other head of state interfering in US affairs. We interfere in every other country's affairs all the time.

:puke:

[Joe for Clark]

24. Oh, Ocelot - we earned that right.

In the history of the world there has never been a country like us - that would do the right thing no matter what.

This president has just had a few years to blot that memory - and the country will go on for many years after her leaves.

Isn't the question, what does he leave behind him - isn't that the question??

Joe

[Bjorn Against]

35. We have always done the right thing no matter what?

So do you think slavery was a good thing? The genocide of Native Americans? Japanese internment camps? The use of chemical weapons like Agent Orange on civilians in Vietnam? Segregation? If you think America has always done the right thing no matter what you need to read some history.

[Joe for Clark]

39. You introduce relativisim.

I don't, can't make judgements ethnocentric to 19th century america - neither can you. How can we live today and not make judgements from the perspective we grew up with??

About 20th century america - I sure can, and so can you.

But for the injection of this country in 1942 -- you can forget your jewish and slavik friends. And the genocide surely does not stop there - just starts.

And if it starts there - that would indeed mark the day the new dark age starts.

And we stopped it. Cold.

So yeah, we sure do get a do-over in this -

Joe

No matter what - it is a black and white term in a gray world. An we earned the benefit of the doubt - these last six years notwithstanding.



What exacly do you think happens in our 21st century if america does not intercede in 1942??

[Bjorn Against]

40. You are making very ethnocentric judgements...

I hate to break it to you but 1942 was not the only year in American history, nor was everything that was happening in 1942 honorable. Certainly I would think that you would not agree with the idea of rounding up people and housing them in internment camps solely because of their nationality? Yet that is exactly what we were doing with Japanese Americans in this country. Now certainly you can argue that Hitler was worse, and he certainly was but that does not mean that everything that Americans did was just and noble.

There has never been a time in this nation's history when our government was not involved in some very nasty things. If you would read some real history you will see that, I am not just judging previous generations I am judging my own as well. There has been countless horrible acts committed by our government in my lifetime Reagan, both Bushes, and yes Clinton all supported some horrible acts of aggression. Our nation may have done some good things, but our hands are not even close to being clean.

Bush attempted a coup on Hugo Chavez, and in your letter you gave Bush your full support in his attacks on democracy in Venezuala. That tells me all I need to know.

[Joe for Clark]

41. You understanddthe concept of relativisim - you do.

You know - greater right?? Not 100% - just greater.

I know what happened in 42-43-44. I know Manzanar. Can never be justified - can be understood by the times they occured in, though. I can't understand the concept of slavery. But I understand what a dark age means. And it can last 100s of year.

Hitler, he is in hell accompanied by Mr Stalin right now. God - how does one say which was more evil than the other in such a case??

All you need to know - well, you will never learn all you need to know to make a judgement - you will learn what you can - and that is all.

I do not know how to be more concise. You say that is all you need to know - what does that mean - you don't need to learn more??

Joe

[Bjorn Against]

43. What are you talking about?

Why are you bringing in Hitler and Stalin?

We are better than Hitler, WooHoo! Honestly, is that the sort of standard you want to compare yourself too? Can't we aim a bit higher than that? We should be comparing ourselves with those who have fought peace, not those who have committed acts of genocide.

And for you to suggest I don't want to know more is just ridiculous. When I said "that is all I need to know" I was referring to the fact that in your original post you are SUPPORTING BUSH. You were supporting him for actions against Chavez, one of Bush's actions against Chavez involved support of a coup. For you to support Bush does tell me a lot about you, I know what side of the fence you are on now. I want to learn more about other things, but this thread has told me all I need to know about your view on foreign policy.

[Joe for Clark]

45. You have no idea where I stand -at all.

Relativisim is a concept. You know - if you are more right than wrong and all that.

SO I'm supporting B*sh, huh???

Joe

[Bjorn Against]

46. Well when you say something like this...

"But you did a very nice job in dealing with Mr Chavez recently. Credit is due you on this, and I thank you as an American in the way you handled the situation.

I do not appreciate non-Americans putting their nose in our business - and you did great tweaking that mans nose."

That tells me A LOT about where you stand. Everything I need to know really. I have never heard such kind words for Bush from a DUer.

[Joe for Clark]

49. That tells you nothing about me at all.

Such kind words - huh??

How so??

He did do the right thing -as an american - in terms of dealing with a foreign power.

Do you have any idea just how badly Venezuelia could hurt us - cause I do.

And I doubt I could hold my tounge against Chavez - I really do.

I respect B*sh for being able to do that - cause I know I couldn't.

If you really learned everything you need to know in a few posts - maybe you should run for president.

Joe

[gulfcoastliberal]

51. 21st century? We destabilized Haiti, illegally invaded Iraq, and destabilized Venezuela, too.

These were the right things to do no matter what? Your blanket statement includes support of all bush foreign policy and management. I went to UC Davis and have a degree in American history with a geology minor. University history classes really open your eyes regarding our foreign policies. The Monroe Doctrine resulted in severe human rights violations and illegal acts such as funding and training death squads at the SOA, toppling any government seen as not being under 100% US control, such as toppling Allende in Chile and installing Pinochet. Allende's offense? Actually caring about the 99% of the population not ultra rich. Wanting "Socialist" safety nets such as European"cradle to grave" assurance of adequate health care, worker rights, free education, and an guaranteed adequate pension after retirement.

Per Wikipedia:

When Salvador Allende came to power as a result of the 1970 Chilean presidential election, Chilean society was already racked by huge economic difficulties. Problems such as slow growth, inflation, unequal income distribution and the concentration of economic power remained stubborn and intractable. The majority of the Chilean population were at the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum and had grown weary of perennial problems that were affecting the country. President Allende's Socialist political agenda brought opposition from many sectors of Chilean society as well as the United States, which placed diplomatic and economic pressure on the government to destabilize it.

Towards the end of 1971, Cuban leader Fidel Castro toured Chile extensively during a four-week visit. <1> This gave credence to the belief of those on the right that the Chilean Way to Socialism was an effort to put Chile on the same path as Cuba.

In October 1972, Chile saw the first of what were to be a wave of confrontational strikes led by some of the historically well-off sectors of Chilean society; these received the open support of United States President Richard Nixon. A strike by truck-owners soon joined by the small businesmen, some (mostly professional) unions, and some student groups. Other than the inevitable damage to the economy, the chief effect of the 24-day strike was to bring the head of the army, general Carlos Prats, into the government as Interior Minister.<2>

Despite declining economic indicators, Allende's Popular Unity coalition actually slightly increased its vote to 43.2 percent in the parliamentary elections of March 1973. However, by this point what had started as an informal alliance between Allende's coalition and the Christian Democrats was long gone. <3> The Christian Democrats now leagued with the right-wing National Party to oppose Allende's government, the two parties forming the Confederación Democrática coalition (CODE). The conflict between the executive and legislature paralyzed initiatives from either side. <4>

The CIA tried to destabilize the Allende government, by providing up to US$7 million in funding to opposition groups in order to "create pressures, exploit weaknesses, magnify obstacles" and hasten Allende's downfall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

Documents reveal U.S. funding for Chile coup
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.02/

Many more references to peruse online about it, then compare it to Venezuela:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cia+chile+coup&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cia+venezuela+coup&btnG=Search


My goodness they seem similar! But you say it was the right thing to do, no matter what. USA! USA! Yes, this post is very right wing. You say Chavez wasn't elected - pure fallacy, since you fail to provide any reference whatsoever to substantiate your assertion. You sir, should rethink that letter after perhaps contemplating our brutal, sordid South American history. Read about the "School of the Americas". Read about Iran-Contra. About Chile. About Guatemala. Nicaragua. Etc, ad infinitum. These governments were democratically elected by the PEOPLE, because the population wanted change. But the elites in these countries, suckled on the teat of corruption, thus didn't want any change. And we stepped in with dollars, the CIA, etc to foment the toppling of said democratically elected governments. Think about it. No way have we been doing the "right thing no matter what".

[Joe for Clark]

61. You will be, I think, my actual last post.

This will blow up in the north. Along the Kurdish frontier - southeast from Mosul toward Kirkuk - that is where it will blow.

And in the end it won't a religious thing - it will be ethnic. It will split along arab-non/arab lines. In the end - This has the full capability to blow a region apart. And we will not be able to contain it. You will live to see Saudi Arabia rushing in forces to meet Iranian resistance. You will see you a war that we cannot imagine in terms of immorality.

And I don't think we can stop it.

Joe

[Swamp Rat]

62. Well, if Bushler&Co try to take out Pervez Musharraf I think it may "blow" there first

You are right about the Kurds. The Turks are ready to do them all in whenever they see an opening. And something is likely to happen between Israel and Iran... and ultimately us.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

63. I beg to differ. I don't ascribe to the patently ridiculous doctrine

of American exceptionalism. We have not earned the right to stick our noses in other countries' business just because we're America and we "do the right thing no matter what." That's pure B.S.; we have often failed to do the right thing (see, e.g., Vietnam). The fact that we (along with a bunch of allies, by the way) won WWII does not exempt us from any prior or subsequent sin, of which we have committed many. We are not intrinsically better than any other country or society. The real estate that comprises the U.S. (which was stolen from the people who were already living on it) does not confer some magical goodness on those who occupy it.

This is a "good" or "moral" country only to the extent it actually complies with the ideals expressed in the Constitution, and that has, in fact, very rarely happened. And whatever good the U.S. has done in the past does not confer upon it the continuing right to dictate the conduct of any other sovereign nation.

The absurd notion that we are somehow better than other countries is what has gotten us into the mess we're in now. Bush and all the other exceptionalist idiots need to STFU, even when dealing with difficult characters like Chavez.

[H2O Man]

17. You forgot Poland.

I think it is equally valid to thank Bush for not bombing Poland today.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

29. Your letter context aside, what makes you think bush would ever

have any interest in reading anything unless it is from a pioneer who is mailing him a check for a million dollars? I doubt that he reads letters from his family, let alone the annoying citizens of this country.

If you receive any answer it will be a form letter from a staffer who cranks out thousands of these a day, none of which will ever be seen by anyone higher up than the postal clerk.

[Joe for Clark]

34. Because we can can try. Because it is in our human nature to

try. I am not rolling over on this - but I am willing to give it a try.

Maybe you are right - probably won't work - never know for sure if you don't give it a shot though, huh?

Joe

[Swamp Rat]

32. Ai meu Deus!

[IChing]

36. I recommend

You and Bush should stop drinking from the same hooch.





"I drink to make other people interesting." — George Jean Nathan


“Didn’t you ever get really shitfaced and maybe make a complete fool of yourself and still have an excellent time?”
—Gib, The Sure Thing, 1985


"Drunkenness is temporary suicide; the happiness that it brings is merely negative, a momentary cessation of unhappiness." — Lord Russell


"My grandmother is over eighty and still doesn’t need glasses. Drinks right out of the bottle." — Henny Youngman

"One can drink too much, but one never drinks enough." — Gotthold Ephraim Lessing

Sometimes too much to drink is barely enough." — Mark Twain

[Sydnie]

37. Another quote

“Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” William (Kevin Kline) quotes Aristophanes in the Emperor's Club movie.

Fits blivet** to a T!

[Swamp Rat]

38. Drinking while stupid

[Joe for Clark]

42. I have heard hurtful things -

That about tops it for me.

Joe

[Swamp Rat]

53. Um, that was not in any way whatsoever directed at you.

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. As long as our men and women are dying for a lie I will not tell Mr. Bush

that he did a nice job on dealing with anything. This is one of the times I wish we had a negative recommend. I'm sorry I can't help you Joe.

[Joe for Clark]

47. I think the problem, one of them, is not being able to cross

lines and send carrots along with the kicks in the side.

It is an honest comment and I respect it.

Joe

[ScreamingMeemie]

48. If it were not involving the deaths of literally thousands of innocent people

and our troops, perhaps I could see it.

I see your intent, but he does not deserve a shred of respect from you or any of us. :(

[Joe for Clark]

50. You know you may be right.

But I have never in my life backed down from that which I believed was right.

I do wish you well - but I chose to do the right thing as I see it.

I think you do too.

Joe

[SammyWinstonJack]

54. I wish I knew what you were really saying here?

:shrug: I don't get you! I bet the rest of the World doesn't appreciate us putting our nose in their business, including bombing the crap out of their Countries for no good reason at all! USA! USA! USA! :puke:

[Joe for Clark]

60. Ok - last post -

I do not care what the rest of the world thinks here. They don't live in our part of the world. And when push comes to shove - we bailed them out - in their part of the world. So we definately get a do over.

I will tell you plainly - there is no way we can afford an "explosion" in the southern hemisphere right now - none.

We have no army left to deal with the aftermath. They have all been used up in Iraq.

SO when I say B*sh managed to ignore Chavez - I was impressed he could do that.

Especially that little thug - cause I am not so sure I could swallow so much crap.

Maybe we are not the best country in the world - but if we are not, then the world is really, really screwed. And I have enough of a sense of history to judge this by more than the last six years.


Best to you in all you do,


Joe

[roamer65]

55. Yes, * did a great job at unifying Latin America.

I never ever thought I'd see so many leftists presidents down there all talking and getting along so well. I think Chimpy needs another four years.:sarcasm: