Do you believe there is a sinister world-wide network of Islamofascist terrorists?

[BushOut06]

Personally, I don't believe so. I believe that what we do have are a bunch of scattered groups that have scary-sounding names. A couple of angry Arabic young men get together, plant a few crude bombs, and then create a name like "Islamic Council for Justice" or whatever. Next thing you know, the US State Department is branding these young men as part of this nebulous "Al-Qaeda" network. The US needs for the public to believe that there is this large, shadowy, undefined terrorist network in order to justify their actions. If Americans simply saw a bunch of fractured, disorganized groups that were fighting among themselves, would they really go along with what * and his minions are doing? Yet by claiming that "Al-Qaeda" is everywhere from Iraq and Afghanistan to communities throughout the US, they are able to justify all sorts of illegal activities. That guy behind the counter at the mini-mart? He might be Al-Qaeda, better tap his phone! See all those people going in and out of the mosque? I betchya at least a couple of them are affiliated with Al-Qaeda, or know someone who is. Better put them under surveillance.

There are terrorist groups out there who would love to attack us and our interests. However, they are nowhere near as organized as this administration would have us think. The truly ironic thing is, that their actions are actually having the opposite effect, and making these groups stronger. It is possible that through their actions, they could eventually create the beast they claim they're trying to contain. A sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will.

[Swamp Rat]

1. I'm more worried about the sinister world-wide network of neocons

[mmonk]

2. Islamofascist is a made up word, so on that basis no.

There are, however, violent groups that engage in terrorism for various causes, particularly against Israeli and American targets.

[BushOut06]

3. But do you think they're an organized, cohesive group?

Yes, there are violent groups out there - but are they as organized as * would have us believe?

[mmonk]

7. No only individually IMO.

They have different grievances (no connection from say al Queda and Hizbollah as far as agenda).

[rman]

4. I think there's a worldwide fascist network that includes muslim/islam elements

See the muslim brotherhood and its historic ties to the nazis, and see operation paperclip and the role of nazi spies in the creation of the CIA (Gehlen group). All this info is in the public domain.

See among other places, Octafish's journal
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Octafish


In the mean time Russian neonazis are targeting ethnic minorities, beating them to death in the streets in broad daylight. Recently they purged an entire town of minorities, the police just stood by.

[mmonk]

14. There are some with global agendas.

That being said, I don't view them as all connected. That Russian situation, unfortunately, reminds me of all those different pogroms that have occurred, both in eastern and western Europe.

[rman]

16. problem is, fascists everywhere support state violence against certain citizens

And certain Big Money interests support similar policies.

It seems to me the Russian government is condoning the neonazi violence there.

[mmonk]

19. You're probably right about that.

[rman]

29. Certainly, last time around there were obvious international connections

between big business, high finance, Middle Eastern oil interests and various fascist regimes - and many of todays fascist elements trace back to those connections.

[ShortnFiery]

28. They exist but not all that organized. But like "Elvis" the evil "bogeymen" are every damn where!

:eyes: Please consider some perspective people? :shrug: Do NOT ever let your government use this ploy so that you will give up more of your civil rights. :thumbsdown:

The so called "war on terrorism" is bullshit! Yes, this is best handled by an highly trained Police and corroborating Intelligence matter. Constantly scaring the populace is a ploy. Not how this is NOT done in Europe who has LIVED with terrorism. Their world did not change at all on 9-11, only us Ugly Americans are running scared like chicken little.

No dumba**es (right wingers wetting their pants and running to Daddy's arms), TRUST YOURSELVES and keep your house in order. The rest of the world has put this bullshit *terrorism scares* in perspective decades ago.

Hello? Terrorism has been with us since the beginning of time. The question we must ask ourselves is, do we wish for the experts to root out the networks OR would you prefer all the BS alerts so the Average "clueless" American will be sure to look under their beds at night. :thumbsdown:

[rman]

35. yes the war on terror is bullshit,

for the most part.

What i'm saying is that the real terrorists, the real nazis, are the likes of Bush and cohorts. They've been around for a long time and they are pretty much everywhere - including governments and big business. What we commonly call "terrorism" is for the most part created by them, one way or another.

They play for keeps but they don't play fair. They don't care about nations, religion or politics - except in so far when it suits their goals. They care about money and power - they are criminals. There is every reason to approach this with much paranoia.

[Nikki Stone1]

5. You mean the ones started by our own CIA in the late 70s and 80s in Afghanistan?

//

[Lester222]

6. I don't at all. The key thing that distinguishes islamism from....

...fascism in the way it manifested in germany, italy or japan, is that there is no sence of unity whatsoever among islamists. more than anything or anyone else, they hate and want to kill each other. in face of the overwhelming quantity of violence that muslim extremists commit against other muslim extremist groups or against other moderate muslims, all the attacks on americans or european foreign nationals can almost appear as isolated incidents, things that are occasionally done when someone tries to interfere with them killing each other. I don't see any uniform islamic front with expansionist tendency emerging in the near future at all, and if so then it will most likely be a shiite dominated front which benefitted largely from the US taking out Sadam Hussein and other Sunni figures.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. well said

and welcome to DU :hi:

[Junkdrawer]

8. "If we (the USSR) didn't exist, you would have to invent something." - Giorgi Arbatov

And so they did. And with GREAT effort and expense.

[LeftishBrit]

9. I agree

Quite generally speaking, I tend to be a bit sceptical about vast conspiracies of any sort, especially on a long-term basis, until clearly proven. I tend to think that much violence, oppression and evil of all sorts comes from multiple factions struggling for power and involving everyone around as literal or metaphorical 'collatoral damage'.

I certainly think that terrorism exists and is a serious problem, and that terrorist organizations exist and are serious problems, and that some of them involve Moslem extremists. However, I think that they are not as globally organized as is sometimes implied, and that some of them are indeed natural rivals and enemies; while others only come together occasionally and have only some interests in common.

I also agree that the hysterical response to 'Islamo-fascist conspiracies' is likely to increase, rather than decrease, unity and organization between such groups.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I agree with you

terrorists are in the world, but one reason they aren't as organized as Bush would have you think is that they each have their specific, narrow agenda, and though they may pay lip service to being "in solidarity" with other groups, they really think their group is the only "right" one. It's just like the Communist scare when I was a kid. The Joe McCarthy types would have you believe that every Communist around the world was taking orders from the Kremlin--even as Mao and Stalin were breaking ties.

[RestoreGore]

12. There have and will always be groups that hate us

And this administration in this case I believe has used that to its full advantage. What we are seeing now in my mind has more to do with blowback than anything else. This government supports terrorists when it suits their needs, so while I do believe terrorist groups exist, I also believe Bush and his neocons have hyped it for their own advantage.

[Vogon_Glory]

13. I Disagree. There IS an Islamic Terrorist Network

I disagree. I think that there IS a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist network. It may not live up to the hype of the more hysterical parts of the press and the right-wing propaganda organs, but it's there.

that network was certainly there and in place by the late 1990's. That was when al Qaeda operatives blew up bombs at two US embassies in East Africa while right-wing Republicans were busying themselves with impeaching Bill Clinton. That network had already gotten a considerable amount of cash from sympathizers in Saudi Arabia and other Arabian Gulf sympathizers even before Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar of the Taliban started their "splendid relationship" in Afghanistan after bin Laden left Sudan.

There sure as H@ll was a network in place supporting and funding the guys who flew those planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon--which Clinton-hater Louis Freeh's FBI ignored. That George HW's and Barbara the Elder's beamish boy IGNORED the warnings that al Qaeda was up to something prior to September 11th is pretty close to undisputed facts, except for conspiracy theorists and the dwindling ranks of the George W. Bush fan club.

I don't doubt that much of the network is still there, and has regrouped, thanks to the First Fool's invasion of Iraq, the diversion of resources away from pursuing al Qaeda, and the rise of sympathy caused by what has happened in Iraq since the balloon went up in 2003.

I detest the Republican mal-administration, and I have little but contempt for Georgiekin's and Dead-Eye Dick's foreign policy and the way their henchmen tried to put it into effect. Nevertheless, I see no reason to minimize al Qaeda or pretend it isn't there just because of the way the mal-administration proclaimed a "War on Terror" as an excuse to invade Iraq.

I see no reason to ignore either fundamentalist Islamic terrorists, their agenda, or their activities just because other progressives are hopelessly stuck in binary thinking.

[Junkdrawer]

15. Who built it? Who directs it? And why can't we see those 28 pages...

of the Senate report on 9/11?

:shrug:

[Vogon_Glory]

23. Why Should We Disbelieve In al Qaeda's Existance Merely Because of *

Why should we disbelieve in al Qaeda merely because Georgiekins and Dead-Eye Dick failed so miserably to protect American lives and property on September 11th, 2001, then so cynically used al Qaeda's existence afterwards to support their political power grab here in the US and their failing Iraqi oil grab? To say that something doesn't exist because Georgiekins and Dead Eye Dick says it does is stupid, binary thinking.

I suspect that the bin Laden family black sheep and his Egyptian buddy al-Zawahiri did a credible job at assembling an international terrorist network prior to 2001. I also believe that top-level strategic bungling on the part of Georgiekins and Dead-Eye Dick have allowed al Qaeda to regroup and re-organized.

As for those missing pages, the incumbent mal-administration has a well-deserved reputation for trying to cover up its incompetence with secrecy and by classifying embarrassing documents as "top secret."

I consider the deposed Taliban regime to be a backwards, misogynistic regime that oppressed and starved its people in the name of religion. I believe that the Taliban and al Qaeda's leadership were highly intertwined prior to 9/11/2001, and that overthrowing the Taliban was a Good Thing.

I am still angry that Georgiekins and Dead Eye Dick failed to do what needed to be done and finish off the Taliban.

You don't like that opinion? Tough Knobs.

[Junkdrawer]

24. I don't "Disbelieve In al Qaeda's Existance "...I question who it serves...

Sen. Bob Graham (former head of the Senate Intelligence Committee), has said that the Saudi government DIRECTLY funded several of the 9/11 hitchhikers.

In the shadowy world of infiltrated terror groups, I find it curious that al Qaeda seems to time its terror attacks just when this Big Oil cabal needs them.

[MadHound]

26. I would suggest that you research the history of such fundementalist groups

Start off with the work of Sayy'd Q'utb, "In the Shade of the Qu'ran" and others. Research the history of the Muslim Brotherhood and other pan Islamic groups. Study Wahhabiism, which the CIA also pumped up and let loose in the world.

No, there isn't a monlithic fundementalist Islamic terrorist network. But there is a world wide, loose knit collection of fundementalist Islamic terrorist who are indeed set against the US and the West in general. Just because Bushboy has overhyped the threat for his own purposes doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Junkdrawer]

30. Again, I don't deny its existance...

I question whether its leadership has been infiltrated by either rogue elements of the CIA, the Saudi GID or, less likely but I guess possible, Mossad.

BushCo hasn't busted a gut trying to shut these guys down, they attack at times convenient to the interests of Big Oil, and there's some credible evidence that the leadership was rescued at Tora Bora.

[MadHound]

31. Perhaps, perhaps not, perhaps some of both

Due to the CIA's ongoing interest in the Golden Trianble region, the highest producing opium poppy zone in the world, it is quite possible that our intelligence network is tipping off Al Qaeda operatives, or actively collaberating with them. I would suggest that you read a book titled "The Politics of Heroin" by Alfred McCoy. It is a real eye opener in how drugs have infiltrated our intelligence depts. and thus clouded our judgement on foreign policy in certain reasons.

It could also be that the CIA is unwllling to honestly pursue their former asset and contract agent Osama Bin Laden. We recruited him back during the Afghan/Russian war during the eighties, and made him a high level contract agent for the region. The CIA and other intelligence agencies are usually reluctant to go after their own. This could explain Tora Bora.

And yes, during this time period the CIA encouraged the spread of Wahabism throughout many radical Islamic groups, much to their later regret. But I seriously doubt that this factor would impair them in their duties. The CIA has no compunction about killing those that it has formerly used and then discarded.

But I would say that a great deal of this is, honestly, the work of various fundamentalist Islamic groups themselves. They have been forming, building and recruiting since the late fifties, early sixties. And we are now seeing the culmination of that work.

Bush hasn't busted a gut because these people provide him with a perpetual excuse to wage perpetual war, thus enriching his small circle of friends and family.

Just my take:shrug:

[Junkdrawer]

32. ..and remember that "The CIA" is not a monolithic organization...

After the Senate Committee (chaired by the late Frank Church) reigned in the CIA in the late 70s, a self-financed splinter group was formed.

It's well documented by Joseph Trento in his book Prelude to Terror:

http://www.amazon.com/Prelude-Terror-Americas-Intelligence-Compromising/dp/0786714646/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3969465-0617709?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174055154&sr=8-1

I often wonder if Valerie Plame's Brewster-Jennings group wasn't tracking these activities before Cheney shut them down by exposing her to any reporter who would listen.

[majorjohn]

33. They were destroyed after the war on Afghanistan n/t

[The Stranger]

37. Required viewing:

The Power of Nightmares

[TreasonousBastard]

17. Bingo-- always was a loose underground of...

terrorists, revolutionaries, arms dealers and other types that kind of worked together at times. The Red Brigades and IRA knew some of the same people, and there is no doubt a replacement for the old nemesis Carlos the Jackal who engineered a lot of deals between these disparate groups.

And, in the world of spies, spooks and black bags, governments always have their fingers on these groups and find them useful at times.

But, alas, our old friends the Soviets are no more, so we must find a new enemy to justify a trillion dollar military budget. Just mumbling about some raggedy, or largely local, groups ranging from Basque and Kurdish separatists to Hamas, Shining Path, the Columbian militias, Tamil Tigers, and the hundreds of others won't cut it. Nor will admitting that we supported and trained the Mujahadeen who changed names and turned on us just as they fought the Russians, and for pretty much the same reasons.

Nope, the evil and all-pervasive al-Qaeda just happens to fit the bill as the enemy we must fight forever, and, very conveniently, won't ever be beaten until the next reliable enemy shows up.

[reprehensor]

18. The Power of Nightmares

Streaming and download;
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

On a historical note, there is an important Australian production that has recently been made available on the internet called "An Unholy Alliance". It provides a good introduction to the history of the Afghan drug trade through the 80s and 90s (to approx. 1994) and also examines the CIA's role in Southeast Asia in drug trafficking in earlier decades. Understanding the nexus of drugs, the CIA and "International Terrorism" makes for a lot of interesting dots to be connected.

You can read more about it here, and here.

Download a podcast or AVI of the film here.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. No. There are extremists and small groups of Islamics who are using the only

tactic available to them, terror. They want to be heard. They want recognition of their complaints against the Western culture and what they see as violations of their beliefs. I doubt that they are seeking control of the world as suggested by our glorious imperialists, the neocons.

[KG]

21. the word 'fascist' implies they have a country and an industrial base.

so, i would suspect they are not 'fascists'.

'religious radicals counter-attacking western subversion of their culture' doesn't make for a quick and easy sound-byte tho.

[irislake]

22. NO!

[ShortnFiery]

27. NO! Indeed. Like the commie scares of 20th Century, it's a tired old meme.

When I was active duty in the 1980s everyone was hyperventilating about "The Threat" (USSR). Oh yes, those evil ruskies were under every bed. :eyes:

Don't cha get it yet? The ruling class ALWAYS invents *boogiemen* so that the people will give up their rights in order to let BIG DADDY government to keep them safe.

Yes, there are evil forces in this world and some of them are radical religious nuts. Choose a religion? There's always some whacked out followers.

But no, like "the evil communist plots" that we were warned of AT EVERY DAMN OPPORTUNITY, the Islamic-fascists is just a ploy to enjoy an more Authoritarian run government.

These Right Wingers are really the snot nosed babies because they want DADDY (authoritarian run government agencies) to keep them safe.

Pathetic Bastards!

Stay strong fellow liberals. Don't fall for the latest government invented *threat.* :eyes:

[majorjohn]

34. I agree n/t

[sandnsea]

25. I agree with you

I think if Americans really had it in their heads that we were facing rag tag groups of people like the Army of God, they'd be really pissed at the money and lives sacrificed to deal with them.

[The Stranger]

36. The Power of Nightmares (BBC)

The Power of Nightmares (BBC)

[ComerPerro]

38. I'm more worried about the wanna-bes and copycats

[porphyrian]

39. "Terrorist" is an ambiguous term in how it's used, and "Islamofascist" it propaganda.

An organized, world-wide network of terrorists would've already successfully attacked us again, given how shitty a job this administration has done in implementing anything to prevent it other than making airline travelers remove their shoes (and it took a Democratic Congress to actually implement the 9/11 Commission's recommendations). There have always been terrorists. There will probably always be terrorists. They are indeed dangerous, but less so than the bush administration, who has now killed more Americans than bin Laden, not to mention those it's maimed, or Iraqi civilians, or Afghani civilians, or Somali civilians, etc. And wasn't it some near-retarded radio host who coined the term "Islamofascist?" What bullshit.