ChristoFascist actually rings fairly true

[Perky]

As a Christian I have had more than my share of dust-ups on DU over the last 5 years regarding the role of certain groups and their impact or their desire to impact the public commerce of ideas. I think the concern for many Christians on the board has always been the ease in which some DUers easily bandy about and interchange .

None of us us the CHristian left are defending Dobson et al, or anyone's abject right to criticize the words or deeds of "those people". What we have usually objected to is the interchangeability and use of these titles evangelicals and fundamentalist and Christians; the guilt trip some would put on us religious DUers for the actions of these bozos and the undercurrent of animosity and mistrust of the faith itself because of the actions of these pharisees.

There is very little in the politics of Mr. Falwell that springs from authentic Christianity or the words of Christ. The objection that we as Christian DUers have is that there are some who suggest that because this crowd of people (from Falwell to Dobson to Robertson to DJ Kennedy to Perkins to SHlafly to LaHaye to the COncerned Woman of America to Bauer to that kook out in Oklahoma to Randall Terry to many others who share there narrowminded) is an indictment of the faith generally and that all religiously informed political views should either be discounted or barred from the political world.

Religious Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism and Christianity are not the same thing. And while there is nothing wrong with fundamentalism withing the context of purely religious doctrine is has been largely vilified here on DU. I have done this myself any number of times: derisively uses the term "fundies" to attack the same people. I think that is a mistake ultimately. The problem is that religions fundamentalism is about inerrancy and doctrinal purity and while those issues are very important issues for debate within any religious community, nobody has been appointed guardian of orthodoxy last time I checked..

It is certainly very easy to make the leap in logic that what the Bible says about the community of faith is meant to apply to the larger community of the world around us, but it is abjectly wrong to seek to impose those religiously informed understandings on a secular world... That was never God's intent as I read either testaments. Atheists agnostics and secularist have a right to be concerned when that type of crap happens


I understand that that is the fundamental objection to the religious right.

The problem is that there are those who would take this aversion to the extreme of either derisive ridicule of people of faith or seeking to limit our access to the public square or wanting to pick a fight or start a flame war because they are angry at a certain group of people who call themselves "Christians".

I have begrudgingly accepted as a fact that at many level the debate is never going to be fully elevated here on DU -- that the distinction between sub-sects will continue to be blurry and in some cases intentionally obscured. Still I would very much like to offer as a means of simplify the debate and avoiding some of the mind-numbing familiar threads.

I think using the term Christofascist when referring to "that" crowd is pretty much on the mark. I say that even though I don't really want to give that group any more credence by allowing them to take on the name of Christ. I am willing to concede the point.

Could we start calling these Pharisees ChristoFascists of CFs and not evangelicals or Christians or religious wackos?

[ck4829]

1. It looks like our nicknames for them are going to clash

I suggested calling them the "Focus on Between your Legs Movement" yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=418925&mesg_id=418925

[Perky]

15. LOL

Actually I kind of think it is accurate. My only concern is the broadbrush that winds up including all people of faith.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I'll go along with it

Hey, as a Muslim, I KNOW what it means to have heat applied to everyone in a religious group--even here I've had to point out that some "information" about the Qur'an was not only faulty, but sometimes made up out of whole cloth.

Actually, Christofascists fits better than Islamofascists in that there is historical precedence for it in some clergy supporting Mussolini and Hitler during WWII. Islamofascists doesn't make sense because the fundamentalists believe in residing power not in corporations and big business but in the clerics--Islamotheocrats would be a more appropriate title.

And I definitely agree with your take of some atheists/agnostics on this board--not all, but enough to be annoying--that ALL religion and ALL believers are to be treated with contempt. As I've tried to tell them many times, we liberal believers are the ones who will stand by their side to give them the right of freedom FROM religion--but if we respect their position, then they should also respect ours.

[lligrd]

3. Great Post

Couldn't have said it better.

[Random_Australian]

5. Eh. People saying all religious people are stupid, people saying all atheists are "whackjobs"

who ought to be purged from the party. Two things we could do without.

[Marrah_G]

6. That was very well said!

:applause:

[POAS]

7. I, for one, do respect your positions religious views.

Not all share that respect or even tolerance.

Too often your positions and beliefs are not widely known. Sometimes because ears are closed and other times because voices are silent.

Ears are not opened by silence! Hearts are not won by blame.

[iamahaingttta]

9. Sorry, but...

I'm one of those DUers who thinks that ALL religions and ALL believers are to be treated with contempt. Or maybe pity, at best.

It's all a bunch of made up fairy tales designed to keep the kiddies in line so they don't get out of bed in the middle of the night. When one grows up, one should stop believing in Santa Claus and the magic powers of Jebus. Also, it's only our own narcissism and fear that makes us believe in some magic paradise we go to after we die. When you're dead, you're dead. Deal with it!

Sorry...

I'm sure that most if not all of you "liberal believers" are nice people, but you are enabling a mindset that will never allow us to get out of the muck and reach the stars. We'll be stuck in the cycle of stupidity and violence as long as there is even a possibility for people to fight over the notion of "my god has a bigger dick than your god." Until our species is capable of living in a world dictated by logic and reason rather than fairy tales, we'll never evolve mentally and emotionally beyond the schoolyard.

Sorry...

It's not that I WANT to have contempt for you, it's just that you make it so easy! From the perspective of those of us who have NEVER believed in ANY religion, you're all pretty silly. ALL of you, even the nice ones. You're probably smart enough to get through your life without a belief in fairy tales, yet you justify it anyway because you just can't let go. You just can't take that final step into adulthood and take responsibility for your selves and the world. It's Yaweh, it's Allah, it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's silly.

Sorry...

Look, I understand that the universe is a complicated place. I don't know how or why I got here, but I'm here and I'm going to make the best of it. I'm going to try to understand the complexities of it all, but I'm not going to make shit up in the process. I'm not going to take it as a given that some old book knows what it's talking about. I know more that those bronze age sheep herders and I don't need their notions of morality telling me how to behave. Yes, there's some good stuff in those old books, but it's time to move on.

Hope that's not too harsh...

[Swamp Rat]

10. "God will get you for that Walter!"

:D

[asteroid2003QQ47]

13. Deal with it!

I'm also one of "those" DUers . . .
Great post, couldn't have said it better myself!
As I see it, humanity will likely die a crib death long before evolution saves us from the insanity of religious belief.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. That's fine

I'll put you on ignore, because obviously we have nothing to talk about. I would suggest you do the same to me.

[verse18]

18. Well said.

I know you hurt a lot of feelings out there.

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Even more so for Franco, the Croatian Ustashe, and Romanian Iron Guard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involvement_of_Croatian_Catholic_clergy_with_the_Ustasa_regime

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard (aka "Legion of the Archangel Michael")

[POAS]

4. I don't agree with any blanket

indictments. Such generalizations are always wrong. I am also guilty of using such generalizations in support of my own particular point of view towards the right.

I must ask, however, at what point does silence become complicity? If one stands silent while others subvert and co-opt the good name of your religion are you allowing it through your silence? At what point is it proper to call those usurpers out? At what point do you go from victim to enabler?

Clearly the voice of the religious right dominates the public discussion on religious matters in this country? It is their definition of Christ's teachings that is the face of Christianity to the non-believers. It is their voice that calls itself moral while calling for more war in the name of Christ, and like Peter the rest of the Christianity remains silent.

Find your own voice and don't "preach to the choir" but go into the lion's den with your message. Get your teachers and preachers intothe media to confront the Falwells and Dobsons if their teachings are wrong. They are in your temples and like Christ it is up to you to cast them out of the temple.

Don't leave it up to the conscience of the non-believers to relieve you of the burdon of being mis-understood. Go out and show them what being a Christian really means.

[camero]

8. It might fit for some

For me, I prefer to call them anti-christs, or wolves in sheep's clothing.

[knitter4democracy]

11. I agree.

I'm Eastern Orthodox, which hardly anyone knows about here, and while our Church is far from perfect (and really needs to see the light when it comes to LGBT/Human rights), it fits my faith the best. I don't feel that I'm less of an adult for having a belief system or less of a Dem/Liberal for believing in Christ and His teachings. I get tired of those who argue that on every thread they can, but I'm sure they're tired of my defense of my faith, so it's moot.

Christofascists, anti-Christs, Old Testament Christians, whatever you want to call them is fine by me. Just keep in mind that most Christians don't agree with them.

[unhappycamper]

12. I use the term 'radical cleric' for folks like Dobson. n/t

[EstimatedProphet]

17. I usually call them Dominionists

The majority of them call themselves that, and it is the Dominionist sect that is so full of the death-worshippers and hypocrites.