AIDS cure or sick joke by African president?

[William769]

BANJUL, Gambia (CNN) -- At the only hospital in the capital of this tiny West African nation, a 3-year-old AIDS patient named Suleiman receives his daily dose of medication -- a murky brown concoction of seven herbs and spices served out of a bottle that once contained pancake syrup.

The boy is told a spoonful a day will make him better. His mother, Fatuma, takes the same concoction, as do several dozen other AIDS and HIV patients here. Adults take two spoonfuls.

"It's amazing," Fatuma says. "Two weeks ago, I was very ill, weak and couldn't eat without vomiting."

This has become the treatment for HIV/AIDS patients here since early January, when Gambian President Yahya Jammeh announced he had discovered a cure for the disease that has wreaked havoc across Africa. He made that announcement in front of a group of foreign diplomats, telling them the treatment was revealed to him by his ancestors in a dream.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/03/15/koinange.africa/index.html


My heart hopes this is the cure that we all have been looking for, but my mind tells me otherwise. What to do? What to do?

[WindRavenX]

1. oh, it's clearly a scam

Unfortunately, there are many reports of shaman/faith healers who claim they can cure people of the virus. It's false hope.

[Matariki]

9. why is it a joke?

i personally know 2 people who were cured of Leukemia by non-western methods. One person went to Haiti and was cured in a vodou ceremony - he had a film of the whole thing. The other was a woman cured by a traditional native american shaman/healer. She had one leg amputated and when her doctors wanted to amputate her other leg she decided to look for alternative healing methods. Years later she was in complete remission.

[karlrschneider]

12. Uh huh.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Matariki]

13. wtf does that mean?

because you're igorant of something doesn't make it untrue. I'm not gonna argue with you. I know what I know, I know what I've seen first hand, and I'm used to foolish 'know it alls' who think they're lack of experience is proof of anything.

[William769]

15. So are you advocating that they stop taking their anti viral meds?

As a person with full blown AIDS, I'm going to need just a tincy wincy little bit more information on this concoction before I do a stupid thing like stop taking the medicine thats keeping me alive.

[Matariki]

18. No of course not. I don't know where you came up with that.

I just don't get the narrow minded out of hand dismissal and mockery going on in this thread.

There's no more reason to disbelieve it than to believe it. An intellectually curious person would look at the article and think it was at least interesting. What if there IS something in the combination of herbs that cures AIDS - wouldn't you be interested in knowing about that? There have been plenty of pharmaceuticals derived from indigenous herbal cures.

[William769]

19. I can fully understand the mockery going on in this thread.

I can also fully understand that this should be looked into by the Medical profession. I am in no way trying to offend anyone here as should be recognized in my original OP. In what you wrote " personally know 2 people who were cured of Leukemia by non-western methods. One person went to Haiti and was cured in a vodou ceremony - he had a film of the whole thing. The other was a woman cured by a traditional native american shaman/healer. She had one leg amputated and when her doctors wanted to amputate her other leg she decided to look for alternative healing methods. Years later she was in complete remission." I took that to mean you were in favor of only using the new remedy. If I am wrong I apologize.

I can assure you of one thing tho, There is no remission with A.I.D.S.

[Matariki]

24. yes you were wrong. I am not in favor of only using alternative methods.

I *am* in favor of investigating *anything* that might work to cure fatal diseases, including alternative healing methods. I think it's just as stupid to mock what you haven't seen first hand as it is to believe without question. People who do this are no different than say, zealots who put Galileo in jail. Consensus belief doesn't always turn out to be the truth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Galileo used the scientific method.

He wasn't using alternative astronomy.

The Vatican was.

[karlrschneider]

16. Ask your Shaman.

:eyes:

By the way, it's "their lack..."

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Had a film of the abnormal leukocytes leaving his body?

Damn, I'd like to see that shit.

[Matariki]

25. A film of the ceremony.

I worked with the guy, years after his bout with Leukemia.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Then how did you know that's what did it?

Maybe the plane he took to Haiti was magical.

[Matariki]

28. We were in a small town in Maine - population of about 2500

a bunch of the people we worked with knew him when he was sick, knew about his trip to Haiti and got him to show me the film.

I understand that you have no reason to believe me and that's fine, but the polite thing would be to not say anything as opposed to more or less calling me a liar. You're being very narrow minded to think that something outside your limited experience can't possibly have happened.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. LOL.

I think you're being very narrow minded in concluding that a voodoo ceremony cured somebody of cancer. By narrow-minded, I mean gullible.

[blondeatlast]

60. Or he passed through the Bermuda Triangle along the way...

:spank: myself...

[WindRavenX]

30. I would love to know the details of how such rituals remove the virus from the body

NT

[northzax]

43. I don't know

the fact that the cure only works on Tuesday and Thursday isn't a bit of a red flag?

oh yes, he only administers the cure on Tuesdays and Thursdays, because his ancestors told him to.

However, Mondays and Wednesdays he does cancer, so it's not like he isn't busy then.

[cali]

2. sick joke or sad ignorance but I'm willing to bet

anything it is not a cure.

[sutz12]

3. Sounds like snake oil to me....

I guess you never know, though. Even if something were found, you wonder if Big Pharma would let it out.

[mainegreen]

4. Why are so many insane crackpots in charge of countries?

Ours included?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. Because it's fun!

And profitable.

[Orrex]

5. Ah, yes--the false dichotomy

Jammeh could sincerely believe that his "cure" has merit and that he received the recipe in a dream, so there's no reason to assume (as the headline assumes) that he's scamming anyone.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. Indeed.

He could actually be as stupid as the article suggests. Either way it doesn't bode well.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Play it safe.

Assume it's a scam, get everybody real medical care. Also get the "seven herbs and spices" and give them to a phytochemist to test for activity. If there isn't any, at least we'll have a new fried chicken recipe.

[karlrschneider]

17. Or just eat lots of KFC...hell, it has ELEVEN herbs & spices.

:silly:

[donco6]

67. LOL! Even better! n/t

[NDP]

7. Well, after the cure for AIDS is discovered, a worse disease will kill millions of people

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

23. What? Obesity?

Hysterical pregnancy?

Avian influenza?

The clap?

[951-Riverside]

8. AIDS cure.... African president.... ecuse me....

HAHAHAHAHA! :rofl: HAAAAA!!!



OMG! Its Flava Flav HAHA!

[Matariki]

11. what are you saying?

that the guy in the photo isn't Gambia President Yahya Jammeh?

or are you just being an ignorant racist jerk?

[JackRiddler]

14. Way to go for relevance...

I get it, he's black and dresses flash. Ha ha.

ON EDIT: Removal of expletives directed at 951-Riverside and the stupid racism of his post.

[donco6]

10. Well, if you'll buy this, I got a nice plot of land to sell . . . n/t

[JackBeck]

31. People on this thread mocking alternative medicines

are being culturally insensitive. Not every culture and society on this planet believes in pharmaceuticals.

This was one of the first lessons we had to learn as community educators: one must be sensitive to delivering information in a culturally appropriate way. There is more and more research looking into alternative herbs, meditation, yoga, acupunture...and their effects on people who are HIV+ or have Hepatitis C. Would I encourage a person on HAART to quit? Never. Would I stop a pregnant woman from taking AZT? God no. But I would ask you all to step back for a moment and realize that there are alternative means to tending to an illness.

[WindRavenX]

32. Tending does not mean equal level of efficient treatment

By all means, if both treatments caused an equal level of effectiveness, go for whatever floats your boat. But you're completely fooling yourself to claim shaman rituals are the same in terms of effectiveness, and that's not being cultural insensitive, it's just stating a fact that such rituals have no proven ability to cure any ailment. Spontaneous remissions of many ailments, cancers and even AIDS, occur at a background rate. But until it can be proven that it is the ritual that cures it--which this atheist thinks is ridiculous--you simply can't say it is on the same level of proven anti-viral medicine.

[JackBeck]

34. Take my post as you will.

I was responding to the OP and the many posts mocking herbal remedies, instead the Valley of the Dolls American mentality.

[WindRavenX]

39. Listen, I'm not some friend of drug-pushers

But it's really disheartening to hear people claim that anti-viral medicine for AIDS, or other diseases, is somehow a boogie man created by the pharmaceutical industry.

[JackBeck]

42. Where did I say that?

[WindRavenX]

50. "instead the Valley of the Dolls American mentality"

I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting you, but I interpreted it to mean that you were doubtful of the effectiveness and realness of some diseases that are treated with traditional medicine.

Maybe I should drink more coffee lol.

[karlrschneider]

33. Alternative medicines will cure anything.

So does death.

[JackBeck]

38. There's a lot of research going on to show that alternative medicines

can boost the immune system. And with HCV, can help with liver damage.

With HIV meds, most people die from resistance because they either have contracted a MDR strain, or are having problems with adherence. So, having an alternative is a better option than having no hope and relying on a short list of HIV meds.

[WindRavenX]

40. And then there are the few people who have an agressive strain and can't be helped at all...

...sometimes, nothing can be done. But it's not fair to give people false hope on rituals that have no proven effect.

[JackBeck]

41. Where did I talk about rituals?

I'm talking about hersb, yoga, acupunture. Those that are under the umbrella of "alternative medicine".

[WindRavenX]

48. Sorry, your name got blurred

Although I believe that there may be legitamcy to those practices, I hope you don't mean for them to replace traditional medicine---I know many people who used yoga in conjunction with heart meds to lower blood pressure with great success. I'm talking about people who think they can pray or meditate the ailment away.

Sorry for the confusion!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

90. I disagree.

There's no evidence that most forms of alternative medicine have any value *beyond that of placebos*, but the power of the placebo effect should not be underestimated.

Even in the case of an invariably-fatal complaint, a cheerful and relaxed patient will on average deteriorate more slowly than a depressed, panicked one, I think.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

91. Yes, that's exactly what there is.

A lot of people are conducting research *to try and prove that alternative medicines work*. And, lo and behold, many of them succeed.

Research conducted to find out *if* alternative medicines work better than placebos, however, almost always show that they don't.

[Book Lover]

35. But the viruses and bacteria do

And that's what the chemicals in the medicine care about.

[JackBeck]

45. Huh?

[Book Lover]

54. "Not every culture and society on this planet believes in pharmaceuticals."

Look, I understand your position that in clinical practice, when creating a treatment plan, cultural accommodations must be made. My point is that chemicals don't care if you were born in Namibia or New York: they will act in accordance with physical laws.

spelling on edit

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. "alternative" means there's no science to support the claims.

Now if somebody discovers an ethnobotanical remedy for something, tests it, find it has medicinial value and so on, it wouldn't be alternative medicine anymore. It'd be scientifically sound regular medicine.

Until then, it's quakery. Snake oil.

[WindRavenX]

44. these threads seriously, seriously, make me shake my head

How is this any different from religious fundementalists who refuse to give their children chemotherapy or other medical attention and instead "pray" the disease away :eyes:

[JackBeck]

46. Did you even read my post?

I said I'd never deny anyone HAART, but that there are also alternatives out there to manage disease progression.

[WindRavenX]

52. see upthread: I think we're having a miscommunication

NT

[JackBeck]

56. Gotcha.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

59. self-delete

barking up the completely wrong tree, posted in the wrong place, etc.

[WindRavenX]

61. LOL I was like, 'holy shit dude, im a bio major!'

:rofl:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

63. Sorry...

Was attempting to respond to another post and ended up responding to yours by accident. My apologies. :)

[WindRavenX]

65. np, this thread has a lot of weird branches

I got mixed up with someone else on this thread too--sometimes it's hard to know who you're replying too :hi:

[northzax]

51. right, you can believe in voodoo

(not you, the general 'you') I will take my chances with the double blind peer reviewed studies, thank you very much.

[JackBeck]

53. I wish you could come to a workshop with me.

A lot of times, on a cultural level, the only time you can get someone to take their HIV meds is if they are convinced they can take an herbal remedy along with it that doesn't interfere with their HIV meds.

I don't know what else to tell you. It's not snake oil when you are talking to pregnant women of color from the Bahamas who won't take AZT, which almost is a 100% guarantee that they won't pass on HIV to their child, and the only way you can convince her is if she takes it with what she is sure will stop her passing on HIV.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Well, if you need to make airplanes noises...

in order to get your kid to eat the strained peas, that's all and good, but it ain't medicine.

[JackBeck]

71. How do you feel about medicinal marijuana?

[William769]

72. That has been proven to work by the Medical profession for some things.

"Marinol" works great for my appetite.

[JackBeck]

75. And for some, Marinol doesn't work.

Which is why there is such a great debate over whether or not people should be allowed to smoke it.

[William769]

80. I have yet to meet anyone where marinol did not work.

And in my circle of friends 98% of us are taking it.

[JackBeck]

81. That's great!

But that hasn't been my experience.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. Medical marijuana's highly supported by scientific evidence.

In fact, the FDA approved THC for treatment of cancer sufferers back in the eighties. It's not an alternative medicine.

Next?

[JackBeck]

74. Smoking it is considered an alternative method to help stimulate appetite.

Which is why it was made into a pill. But some people need to smoke the real stuff, because the pill does not work.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Yes, but it's not alternative medicine.

You're talking about a practice banned for law enforcement/race baiting purposes, not because it's quackery.

Apples and oranges.

[JackBeck]

77. But it used to be considered alternative. "Snake oil", if you will.

And after activists got scientists to finally do studies about marijuana, it was approved.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. It's got nothing to do with snake oil.

It's always been known exactly what it does and why.

It's how marinol got invented in the first place.

[JackBeck]

88. So there was never a time when marijuana was mocked as a treatment option?

Science has always approved of this herb as a treatment method?

Or did its approval start out as a some mavericks deciding to look at this herb and the ways that it can contribute to the positive health benefits of those who use it? Are you saying that marijuana was never looked at as an alternative treatment option?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. Not on a scientific basis.

There are drug warriors who mock marijuana as medicine, but they're the same people mocking global warming.

"Science has always approved of this herb as a treatment method?"

Not in the last thirty some years since its medicinal benefits have been understood.

Your comparison of marijuana with "alternative medicine" is disingenuous.

[JackBeck]

92. Chinese medicine deals with how herbs interact with ones health.

Not disingenous at all.

So what's a person to do once they become resistant to HAART? Give up?

[Zynx]

78. THC is a drug, just a usually illegal one. It's not "alternative"

[JackBeck]

82. I wasn't talking about THC.

I was talking about the herb Cannabis, also known as marijuana.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. THC is marijuana.

Take THC out of marijuana and you've got hemp.

[JackBeck]

85. THC is the chemical compound in an herb named Cannabis.

My point being, an herb used as an alternative therapy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. They're not using the "herb" as an alternative medicine.

They're using the THC. You don't see anybody using hemp as a medicine.

They're using marijuana as a cheap form of marinol.

Also, they're inhaling it as opposed to digesting it.

If you take marinol, grind it up and sprinkle it on hemp, then you've got yourself starchy marijuana.

[JackBeck]

93. Marinol is the pharmaceutical incarnation.

Marijuana is the herbal form. If smoking it is the same thing as taking the pill form, why is California having a hard time making the distinction?

[Xithras]

37. Once dreams and magic are mentioned, no credibility should be given.

I understand the concept of cultural sensitivity, but there's a world of difference between no offending someones beliefs, and actually granting credence to this mystical mumbo-jumbo. The spirits of his ancestors gave him the cure? You want me to believe that? I'll believe that he had a dream, and that he came up with a tasty new herbal mix, but I'm not going to grant once ounce of legitimacy to ANY claim that it will actually cure anything.

The only thing that I MIGHT concede is that he may have stumbled on a way to improve appetite in AIDS patients. There are already many known drugs, both natural and pharmaceutical, that accomplish the same thing. While that might be an interesting discovery, it's not a cure. Not even close.

[Matariki]

94. Right. Tell that to Friedrich Kekule

[northzax]

49. and not every culture on the earth

believes the Earth goes around the Sun. and yet it really does seem to.

here's the thing: you don't need to believe in virus that causes HIV. it's not a matter of belief, it is a matter of fact. you don't need to believe in guns for them to kill you.

[JackBeck]

58. Sorry, but your post makes no sense to me if you're responding to my post.

[Book Lover]

47. From the thin evidence in the story, it seems most likely

that this is an appetite stimulant. One person speaks of being able to eat sans vomiting episodes, and another says he has gained a substantial amount of weight and that his symptoms have been alleviated. All of which is therapeutic in a way, but hardly proves that viral load levels are dropping.

It is easy to study these claims using scientific methods. One would imagine the discoverer of such a formula would make his or her data and formula itself available to all interested parties.

[WindRavenX]

55. I think so too

An analog might be people using marijuana to keep an appetite and be able to have enough strength to go through chemo--doesn't mean the pot is killing cancer cells, just means it's helping the person keep their food down and have an appetite.

[William769]

64. Self delete.

Sorry Posted in the wrong place.

[WindRavenX]

68. I wouldn't apologize

If anything, it highlights the need for educating people on how medicine actual works.

[Colobo]

62. This president is irresponsible, IMO

But, I believe in respecting the traditions of other peoples. If HIV+ people in Gambia want to try this and feel better doing so, who am I to make fun of them?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. I'd like to take excpetion to the notion in this thread...

that people in the Bahamas, and Haiti, and Africa and other melanin rich parts of the world are stupid, ignorant, and superstitious; and that they don't know how to take their medicine.

We've got no shortage of people in this country that think AIDS is caused by chemtrails, and that we can cure it by saying our prayers and taking vitamins, and our President is hardly an exception.

[William769]

66. Forgive me for posting this.

I did not realize it would cause such a flare up.

As a person living with A.I.D.S. and also a person who has lost a partner and countless friends to to the disease (some due to "alternative medicine"), I thought it warranted discussion.

[donco6]

70. These threads always end up this way.

Don't sweat it.

[JackBeck]

79. Unfortunately, people still think AZT kills people.

Why totally discredit traditional Chinese Medicine, I guess is my point. In conjunction or not with HAART, is not for me to decide but for the consumer.

[Matariki]

95. I'm curious what sort of discussion you were hoping for?

I think the article is interesting. I have no reason to believe it or disbelieve it, but it would certainly be interesting if there is some follow up. I mean it would be great if the guy discovered something that works, no? Who cares how he came to the information if it proves to be valuable?

I frankly don't get how people can be so dismissive without having first hand knowledge of the facts. Calling the article bunk is a bad as blindly believing it. Either opinion is based on belief, not evidence. Yet the people mocking the article seem to be under the delusion that they're being scientific.

[slackmaster]

86. "Seven herbs and spices" is a big fat clue this is a joke