The Plame Scandal

[H2O Man]

"We Americans all too often take for granted the luxury of living in and benefiting from the rights and freedoms guaranteed by our constitution. Several actions undertaken by this administration serve as a reminder that the social contract that binds us is fragile and requires our vigorous protection if we ever hope to preserve it. We have known this since the time of the drafting of the constitution over two hundred years ago when Benjamin Franklin remarked that the founding fathers had bequeathed to the nation ‘a republic, if you can keep it’." -- Joseph & Valerie Wilson; July 17, 2006

Valerie Wilson did a wonderful job of telling the congressional committee about her side of the story of the "Plame scandal" yesterday. And the House democrats did a great job of providing the American public with the truth about several of the key issues in that scandal. Several of the republican "talking points" were exposed as purposeful lies, aimed at confusing the issues involved in the falsehoods that brought this nation to war in Iraq.

In his book "The Politics of Truth," Joseph Wilson wrote about the "work-up" on him that was done by some in the Office of the Vice President, and shared with the White House Iraq Group and others. "According to my sources, between March 2003 and the appearance of my article in July, the workup on me that turned up information on Valerie was shared with Karl Rove, who then circulated it in administration and neoconservative circles. That would explain the assertion later advanced by Clifford May, the neocon fellow traveler, who wrote that Valerie’s employment was supposedly widely known. Oh, really? I am not reassured by his statement. Indeed, if what May wrote is accurate, it is a damning admission, because it could only have been widely known by virtue of leaks among his own crowd." (pages 443-444)

The truth of this became evident when neoconservative Victoria Toensing, who testified after Plame, claimed that Valerie was not "covert." How would a person with no connection to the CIA be in a position where she would believe she knows what Plame’s employment status was? Not only is Toensing purposely lying – and lying to a congressional committee should have consequences, especially when it has to do with a national security issue – but it proves beyond any doubt that Joseph Wilson’s claim is correct: the OVP?WHIG was pushing a lot of information on Valerie Plame Wilson to people not legally entitled to receive it.

More evidence came when Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-GA) was focusing on if Plame was a registered democrat. The idea that in the spring of 2003, VP Dick Cheney questioned Joseph Wilson’s report on the Niger yellow cake lies, because he was a democrat, and his wife who worked in the CIA department that sent Joe to Niger was a registered democrat, documents the extent of the "work-up." It also shows the diseased thinking of republican congressmen who attempt to justify the paranoid OVP actions as rational.

The administration’s lapdogs in the media have been saying that no one outside of Washington, DC cares about the Plame scandal. That seems to ignore the fact that Americans recognize the Plame scandal involves the White House committing crimes to destroy the lives of those people who dared tell the truth about the WMD "threat" that Iraq posed. It ignores that a majority of Americans do not support the Bush/Cheney war in Iraq. It ignores the fact that Americans mourn for the over 3,000 US soldiers who have died for the administration’s WMD lies. It ignores the outrage Americans feels when they hear about the mistreatment of wounded veterans. And it ignores the fact that Americans voted in a democratic majority in both the House and Senate, in order to change the direction this nation is heading in.

I urge readers to take three steps: {1} Write and/or call your elected officials, and tell them to investigate and impeach administration officials involved in the Plame scandal; {2} Write letters to your local newspapers, expressing outrage that the administration derailed a significant part of the intelligence communities’ efforts to protect our safety; and {3} Support the Joseph and Valerie Wilson Legal Support Trust.

Learn more about their civil case against Cheney, Libby, Armitage, and Rove by going to:

http://wilsonsupport.org/

Contributions may be sent to: Joseph & Valerie Wilson Legal Support Trust; P.O. Box 40918; Washington, DC 20016-0918. The Wilsons have stated that if their civil case results in a payment larger than the costs associated with their legal activities, the equivalent monies contributed to the Trust will be donated to one or more charitable organizations that work to protect government whistleblowers’ First Amendment rights, and to protect them from retaliatory actions.

[malaise]

1. Great post H2O Man

Truth will out.

[Hissyspit]

Thanks for the memory refresh.

..and the call to action.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[rosesaylavee]

3. I was hoping to read your take on the

testimony yesterday... so you don't feel that Toensing's argument that, according to the Executive Order, Ms. Plame was not technically considered covert on July 14, 2003?

I wasn't able to watch all the testimony - but it appeared to me that Toensing's argument hinged on whether or not Ms. Plame had been out of the country working for the CIA within a span of 5 years. Ms. Plame's testimony yesterday morning verified that she had been. Do you think that Toensing just was not ready to adapt her testimony to new evidence presented by Ms. Plame? If yes, how lame a lie is that?

As I watched Ms. Plame's testimony, I couldn't help but hope that Valerie Plame will be considered for CIA Chief sometime in our future. She is very courageous.

[H2O Man]

4. Toensing is lying.

She is aware that she is lying. She is part of a coordinated campaign to push that purposeful lie.

[Tennessee Gal]

8. Can she be prosecuted for it?

I hope, I hope, I hope!

[H2O Man]

42. That's a good question.

I think she is an enemy of the United States. A bunch of them are. But she is also a puppet, and as Malcolm X said, we should go after the person pulling the puppet's strings.

Impeach Dick Cheney.

[frogcycle]

57. Waxman made som threatening remarks

when dismissing her. Said she contradicted what two others had said under oath, and the validity of what she had said would be further evaluated or some such

[kohodog]

45. She wasn't very convincing

And the panel saw right through it. She tried to use the RW tactic of talking incessantly to avoid answering the questions.
It was hard to watch but proved how desperate they are to avoid the facts. Waxman slapped her down at the end when he sais he was going to fact check her testimony before putting it into the record. I've never seen that before.

[mmonk]

47. Toensing's angle I believe (what's she's exploiting to confuse

things and push blame on the CIA) is Plame being NOC. She can twist the situation from that vantage point.

[frogcycle]

62. they are trying, not so successfully now

to change the topic. Put up a straw man. Waxman was right on point. Even if all the hairsplitting were to "prove" she was not "technically" coverty because of a subclause in a 30-year-old law that said she had to be out of the country at least x days and she was 20 minutes shy or something...


The FACT is that she was operating as if covert, her coworkers thought she was covert, the agent network she worked with sure as hell thought she was covert, the work she was doing was highly critical to national security. It matters not whether there might be a legal loophole - THIS IS NOT HOW WE WANT THOSE WE PUT IN PLACE TO PROTECT US TO BEHAVE! It was wrong, morally and ethically wrong, probably illegal.
The grounds for impeachment are intentionally vague. "High Crimes and Misdemeanors"
a misdemeanor is "A misdeed"

The law uses the term to define a class of crimes, but the Constitution does not say it has to be against some yet-to-be-written law. It is a misdeed. Something that offends. So this woman's parsing of sentences was just spitting in Waxman's eye.

[notadmblnd]

93. Do you think she is pushing that lie

because that will be the defense bush and cheney will use?

[H2O Man]

104. I think it is

the defense the OVP/WHIG is using now, in the public confrontation.

[Joe Chi Minh]

135. Further to your citing the "public confrontation", H2O Man, I hope this post may

explain some things to some DUers who hanker for just a civilised discourse between nice people.

Everything about this administration is a power-play, and DUers who tend to think it's really for academic discussions of party politics need to understand that.

It is why their operatives/trolls/disruptors, which we can identify in our minds, though we can't call them out or name them, on here, imo, must be tackled straight away; indeed, as immediately as they post in a team, as they usually do, in response to any good news concerning whatever good news has just come out.

Representative Waxman didn't make those concluding remarks to Toensing, because he wanted to sound smart, or because he likes to snipe at people; he did it because he knows everything about that case is a power-play, notably with regard to the public's perception and morale, and the neocons' perception of how much they can get away with. He gave her and her crew an emphatic marker.

Waxman knows that if the good guys left matters to the simple letter of the law, they would simply crank up their noise machine more and more, to quench any public expectations of justice, and then, with the help of the venal MSM, bulldoze their way out of it.

Capitol Hill, the courts, DU, other Democratic blogs and freeper blogs are all part of this power-play continuum and we're really watching a modern-day Western, and are even involved in at the margins. That's true of much of your court system apparently; hench Perry Mason, Law and Order, McBride, etc, etc.

Consequently, particularly in view of the maverick, lawless nature of the neocons, and indeed, essentially the far-right at all times and in all places, a purposeful and combative demeanour on the part of the upholders of the law on behalf of the people and the country, is as important in its own way as the law itself - an all too human construct which can be destroyed by the same agency as the one by which it was built - the legislature or parties within it - and its originators in the present day.

[H2O Man]

137. Good points.

I agree.

[Joe Chi Minh]

139. Thank you, H2O. Though I should, perhaps, have added, "or just ignore those

naysayers'/operatives' posts, while realising what they are up to."

Also, though I think the operatives are mostly female, the word, "posse", might have been more apt than "team"!

[blossomstar]

160. So very well said!

[Joe Chi Minh]

175. Thank you.

[Fovea]

153. I believe you are correct

and I think we saw that defense fail utterly.

I thought Waxman gave her an out I would not have. I think I would have told her that if she wanted to discover how serious lying to congress was, she should walk out that door with her statement unamended.

[Broadslidin]

23. Valerie Plame Wilson, CIA Chief = The Ultimate Courageous Promotion...!

Rosesaylavee's Promotion Proposal
would begin to restore 'Integrity' within the CIA.

[rosesaylavee]

25. Wouldn't that be a fitting

just end to this whole affair?

[baldguy]

27. Even if Valerie Wilson was "technically" not covert on Jul 14, Brewster Jennings certainly was.

I wonder how many CIA agents had to bug out of their assignments, and how many human intelligence assets were tortured and killed so our little 10-yr-old Dick Cheney could get back at Joe Wilson?

[H2O Man]

35. She was covert.

There is no question that she was covert. None.

[baldguy]

41. But, if that's the line the WH is taking, it doesn't wash.

No matter what the law says, secrets should be kept as long as they need to. Valerie Wilson's postion still needed to, if only to protect Brewster Jennings.

[H2O Man]

43. Right.

But rather than talk about technically, etc, it's more accurate to say, "She was covert. There is no question about that. Those who claim otherwise are liars."

[baldguy]

46. "The WH Is Lying" is front page news

Right?

:crazy:

[H2O Man]

48. There was a time

when polls indicated that one of Bush's strengths was that a majority of people thought he was "honest." That was a long time ago. Not a lot of people look at Dick Cheney as an honest man. And Scooter is a convicted felon, as the result of his lying. So, front page, back page, editorial page, or in the LTTE, we should keep on the most accurate and true message -- they are liars. There is no reason to pretend there is an honest difference of opinion on issues such as the Niger yellow cake forgeries or Plame's covert status.

[frogcycle]

71. not only do they lie

they do not even recognize a vague association with reality

I have always thought it inappropriate to be able to impeach a witness by just catching them in some inconsistency (you told the police you didn't see the stop sign, so why should we believe you when you say this man raped you?)

That is bs.

But having no respect for, even comprehension of, reality vs a fantasy world-view - that is something else entirely.

They not only lie - they create an entire alternate reality to suit their desires. They would happily claim the martians were about to invade if they thought it would win an election or enable them to invade somebody. When asked a question they don't think "let me see, what are the facts?" they think "let me see, what response would serve my purposes?"

This is more extreme even than "habitual liar". It is "pathological liar" combined with "groupthink"

If you asked bush whether Barney is a dog or a wombat, he'd probably say "do you like wombats?" before answering

[Joe Chi Minh]

142. You have just described Blair's mindset to a tee.

[WHAT]

165. that's another thing that aggravates me,...

to no end.

I've been listening to bbc (mostly. I don't trust 'em) and on Thursday (I think) they had kat on for diane. Now, this was right after Libby and before Plame, anyway, first, by way of explanation, the show w/Wilson broadcast with kat always comes to mind. This show was broadcast earlier...maybe a year or two before. In this show kat brings-up the point that the "16 words of the sotu was vetted on british intelligence" so, therefore, it wasn't inaccurate (slide the cheese and let's all say geeze) anyway, Wilson countered with a very erudite explanation about treaties that anticipate sharing wrt wmd's from our "allies", kat was left rebuffed and floundering. I switched to bbc again (I used to get 2 stations that carried bbc and came-on within an hour of each other) just to enjoy this point of the program again, but, it wasn't there...edited out within an hour. I was thinking of this, when kat was hosting the dr show due to diane having pneumonia...one of her call-in guests was Joe, spouse of vicks (needless to say, this was not shared); anyway, he was introduced with reflective validation...ag of so and so ...in other words, he was presented as "legitimate". A poised discourse ensued in which it was concluded that the wonderful people in charge might need a tune-up, but it was still a lexus.

sigh...alas...

In conclusion, I've come to suspect the government of the uk and europe (not the people) for complicity in furthering the policies that might crack open a new market (OH, the potential of democracy (said in a big voice) available with a malleable market).

I need to stop myself before I dig myself in too deep because I still don't understand clearly what is going-on, but, bbc has been dissing usa while not examining the uk or europe dealings that enable the conflict ...the US may have been used and then set-up amongst the cover of all these protestations of concern. Looking to the action of allies...I wouldn't turn my back on their good intentions. Neither would I discount the force of our history and culture that allows people to work together in good faith and harmoniously because of the true consent of people to representative governance.

Hey, what's that?, what are people really saying...

[Joe Chi Minh]

173. I used to fell sorry for the Italian people, in particular, and latin peoples, generally,

because of the extraordinary propensity their leaders have shown, just in recent centuries, for fathomless endemic, right-wing corruption and criminality.

Part of it was due to the collusion of the institutional Roman Catholic Church in its historical preferential option for the rich, now thankfully largely officially disowned*, and partly, I believe, to the latins' mercurial temperament, which, eschewing formality as pedantry, easily falls into corner-cutting and corruption.

Now, however, I see the Italians, French, Spanish and Portuguese as beacons of integrity and sanity, albeit in comparison with us British - which, admittedly, is not saying too much.

The chief reason, in fact, why I "live" on the DU board and not a British one, is that there appears to be an absence of any kind of organisation of concerned Britons, whose motivations are not exclusively party-political and career-oriented to that end. (Also, I don't like catching a cold, when you people sneeze). The Guardian's "Talk" seems to be almost entirely the preserve of party-political hacks, juveniles and wing-nut American operatives. The outlook of the country could scarcely look more bleak, with its catatonic middle classes seemingly blind to the pit they are falling into. Had we not had a welfare state for those few decades, but instead, had to fight all the way for virtually the right to breathe, like you Americans, I think we would have had some kind of politically aware and highly combative middle class.

The British have usually been referred to as Anglo-Saxons, when the reality is that the culture of the country's leadership Establishment is actually essentially Norman. They are of course, barely post-imperialists, so endemically predatory, while still retaining a traditional allegiance to Christianity.

However, they too are now entirely absent from the ranks of the present-day members of the Conservative Party, who, while retaining the traditional Conservatives' materialism and worldly ambition, have retained no identifiable vestige of Christian qualities to fit them for human society. Not a smidgen of the "noblesse oblige" concern for the less fortunate, often quite pronounced among many of the old, pre-Thatcher Tories (if less evident pre WWII), or for their traditional belief that, having been blessed with material affluence and high status, they have an obligation to "give something back" to society.

Worst of all, since the days of Keir Hardy, a Christian, the Socialist Party, now rebranded exclusively as the Labour Party ("New Labour" having served its purpose, once and or all), has become a predominantly an atheist, far-right wing party, and, since more intelligent than the wild animals of the current Tory Party, a far more sinister agent of the country's breakneck plunge into chaos. (Apparently, there is now a book for primary school children about a handsome prince who spurns three beautiful princesses to marry a man).

I used to think that the EU was uniformly good news for the British people, but, as you mention, they too were prepared to join in an imperialist adventure against "the nazis' "lesser breeds without the law"; guys with brown skins, you know. But the EU is essentially atheist, although unlike France, it will not countenance the corruption of its leaders being in anyway punished! And in that, you can see the depth of corruption and cynicism of our EU leaders, in comparison with your American ones. It really is like chalk and cheese; and the other side of the coin, what cause you have for rejoicing at each new evidence that your checks and balances are still as operative as ever. Little wonder I get so mad at the pessimism of some posters on here, precisely when Dem leaders are doing their job superbly.

I think the rational, socialist/social-democratic democracies of Scandinavia were able to take root, because its imperialist past was confined to the middle-ages, where the norsemens' rule had extended as far as Italy and Russia. Not so, however, in the case of Britain, where the vandal, predatory imperialist influences of a more recent empire evidently remained simmering under the surface.

However, because of the pre-WWII mismatch between the Christianity of the generality of the upper and upper-middle classes and the quite central thrust of the Gospels, it was not hard for atheism, once given its head, to make rapid inroads. In a nutshell, the worldly political intelligence is always essentially right-wing in its nature. Only idealism and Christianity can prompt worldly-wise human beings to transcend the feral and the predatory and to serve ALL their fellow countrymen, particularly those in the greatest need, and generally to endeavour to make the world a better place. But without being firmly rooted in Christianity, we have seen time and time again, in the UK, that, if career aggrandisement and personal enrichment were not the individual's original motivation, their idealism soon lapses into that predatory cynicism. In Blair's case, it was always a sham. He was recruited by cynical, right-wing forces in MI5 before becoming PM, and indeed had once said that he would be the PM, though it wouldn't matter in which party. As for the BBC, I believe the recent, successive, far right-wing governments long ago replaced its Board Governors with its own minions.

* I read in the Jesuit magazine, The Tablet, the other day, that Pope Benedict's animadversions on Fr John Sobrino, were not in relation to the precept of LIBERATION THEOLOGY THAT IT IS THE DUTY OF CHRISTIANS TO ADOPT A PREFERENTIAL OPTION FOR THE POOR, WHICH IS NOW ACCEPTED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AS NO MORE THAN CONSONANT WITH CHRIST'S GOSPEL TEACHINGS, but, rather, with a particular precept of presumably at least some, if not all, of the liberation theologians which he considers will lead to a belief Christ's nature was not divine. Which is as important as the tenet of his human nature. A fundamental mystery/paradox of the faith.

[kestrel91316]

157. This entire administration is composed of pathological liars.

They lie about EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME, because they CAN. They know they will get away with it, that their fawning fascist sycophants will worship them MORE for the very fact of their habitual lying.

Bush is either Satan or the Antichrist. Maybe both. I really can't make up my mind half the time.

[H2O Man]

166. One of my last

supervisors used to make a point about our forensic clients that comes to mind: there are a certain group of people who lie all the time .... not just when it is to their advantage, or even when it really doesn't matter. But these folks will lie, even when it would be beneficial for them to tell the truth. And when you confront them on such a lie, they simply shift, without conscience, to yet another lie.

[Joe Chi Minh]

174. That is a hilarious post. And the fact that it would be absolutly true

just makes it funnier. Is, "Truth is stranger than fiction" the most fundamental of all truths, particularly in relation to human nature, I wonder?

[suffragette]

78. You raise an important point here, H2O

"...we should keep on the most accurate and true message -- they are liars. There is no reason to pretend there is an honest difference of opinion on issues such as the Niger yellow cake forgeries or Plame's covert status."

One of their main ploys has been to use the "difference of opinion" angle to try to cloud the truth around issues, be it this one, global warming, etc. They run this like a slick marketing campaign, keying in on whatever the supposed difference is, then getting it out into the public through their appointees and shills to purposefully cloud key issues. They don't even need to plant the doubt, sometimes it's been enough for them to place the idea in people's minds that an issue is just too complicated.

There is nothing honest about this and these are not differences of opinion, but are flat out lies and they need to be called on this directly, loudly and often.

[Joe Chi Minh]

143. Right on the mark. One of their main ploys.

[frogcycle]

171. when first you practice to deceive

you can dig yourself into a really big hole that tapdancing won't get you out of

[fooj]

126. Thank goodness that CHARACTER still seems to count for something.

At least that was what a recent poll indicated. The majority of the American public are looking for a leader who is a person of CHARACTER.

[EVDebs]

96. No, but it is common knowledge that if their lips are moving....nt

[bluescribbler]

132. Actually, I think

I think it's more of the "dog bites man" variety. At least with this crew.

[The Doctor.]

141. They've been given new TP's on that one already... more BIG lies;

"Covert" To Whom?


This morning, the New York Times reports Valerie Plame Wilson's assertion yesterday, in testimony before Rep. Henry Waxman's House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, that the leaking of her name as a CIA operative (which the Times calls "the security breach") might have “jeopardized and even destroyed entire networks of foreign agents, who in turn risk their own lives and those of their families to provide the United States with needed intelligence. Lives are literally at stake.”

It made me wonder, once again, about the media hypocrisy in reporting this story. Though Times reporters Neil Lewis and Mark Leibovich make no mention of it in their dispatch (and, indeed, it has been absent from press coverage of this story), the Times, along with numerous mainstream media powerhouses, has long maintained in court that Mrs. Wilson's cover had been blown many years before Scooter Libby ever mentioned her.

Specifically, she was exposed by a Russian spy in the early 1990s. Thereafter, the CIA itself "inadvertently" compromised Plame by not taking appropriate measures to safeguard classified documents that the Agency routed to the Swiss embassy in Havana. According to Bill Gertz of the Washington Times, "the documents were supposed to be sealed from the Cuban government, but intelligence officials said the Cubans read the classified material and learned the secrets contained in them."

As I wrote here nearly two years ago, this is not my claim. It is the contention made in a 2005 brief to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit by the Times along with ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, Newsweek, Reuters America, the Washington Post, the Tribune Company (which publishes the Los Angeles Times and the Baltimore Sun, among other papers), and the White House Correspondents (the organization which represents the White House press corps in its dealings with the executive branch). The mainstream media made the contention in an attempt to quash subpoenas issued to journalists — the argument being that if Mrs. Wilson's cover had already been blown, there could have been no crime when an administration official (who we now know to be Richard Armitage, not Scooter Libby) leaked her identity to journalist Robert Novak, and thus there was no need to compel reporters to reveal their sources.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YmE2ODY1MTUwZTcxNzNlNDQxZDcxNzYxN2UyNTVkZWI=

The continue to push the "Well, if they could have found out then she wasn't really covert." angle.

Lame ass stuff.

Yo Freepers! I'm sure if Westmoreland knows he could ask such a question, he would. Why don't you email his office en masse and suggest some questions.

You would be providing much entertainment.

[mod mom]

60. Not only was she covert, but she said that she did travel overseas on missions

within the 5 years from when she was exposed. Also remember they didn't just expose her, but all of her contacts and colleagues whom she interacted with.

THERE ARE TRAITORS IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO PROTECT THEIR OWN SICK AGENDA OVER THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE NATION!

[mod mom]

63. "The undisputed fact is that we have irreparably damaged our capability to collect...

human intelligence and thereby significantly diminished our capability to protect the American people."
-James Marcinkowski

Friday, July 22, 2005
Disclosure of CIA Agent Identity Hearing

IMPORTANT SO I'LL REPEAT THE QUOTE:

"The undisputed fact is that we have irreparably damaged our capability to collect human intelligence and thereby significantly diminished our capability to protect the American people."


James Marcinkowski Former CIA Case Officer James Marcinkowski has been the Deputy City Attorney in supervision of criminal prosecution in the Royal Oak City Attorney’s office since 1996. He was the Assistant Deputy City Attorney, also for the City of Royal Oak, though he maintained a private practice, specializing in criminal defense and as a General Counsel to Financial (Mortgage) Institution, from 1993 to 1997. Mr. Marcinkowski has also worked in the Computer Systems Division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation from 1974 to 1975, as an operations specialist for the United States Navy from 1975 to 1980, as a prosecutor intern in the St. Clair County Prosecutor’s Office from 1984 to 1985, as Operations Officer for the Central Intelligence Agency from 1985 to 1989, and Executive Staff Attorney in the Oakland County Prosecutor’s office in Michigan from 1989 to 1993. He received his B.A. in Political Science at Michigan State University in 1982 and his J.D. from the University of Detroit School of Law in 1985. He has been a member of the Michigan Bar Association since 1985. He has also been a member of the Prosecuting Attorney's Association of Michigan and the National District Attorney's Association.

http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=898&Issue=Disclosure+of+CIA+Agent+Identity

[H2O Man]

64. Right.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11179719/site/newsweek/

The CIA Leak: Plame Was Still Covert
Newsweek
Feb. 13, 2006

"Lawyers for Libby, and White House allies, have repeatedly questioned whether Plame, the wife of White House critic Joe Wilson, really had covert status when she was outed to the media in July 2003. But special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald found that Plame had indeed done 'covert work overseas' on counterproliferation matters in the past five years, and the CIA 'was making specific efforts to conceal' her identity, according to newly released portions of a judge's opinion."

This report was based on a ruling in the federal courts, rejecting the Miller-Cooper appeal. The judge being mentioned was a conservative republican, who had access to information that Mr. Fitzgerald had from the Agency.

[mod mom]

67. Thank you H2O Man for your vigilance in covering the this important story.

[never cry wolf]

112. Actually, the question asked was if she had done missions overseas for the CIA

within 5 years of "today." I was surprised the question was asked that way but it was asked and answered in the affirmative twice. Assuming VP did not misunderstand the question that would mean that she had covert overseas missions as late as March 16, 2002. Less than 16 months before she was outed.

[mod mom]

144. I missed that-they actually said "today"? or was it had she traveled w/in 5 years?

[never cry wolf]

145. They said today, look down-thread

I also ran acrtoss Larry Johnson saying she went overseas in 2001, 2002 & 2003

[EVDebs]

95. And destroying non-proliferation ops seems to be what the WH wanted

Greg Palast's Khan Job article tells us of a NSA pre-9-11 'policy shift' that would have allowed for WMDs proliferating. Who would want their lies about Iraq, and soon Iran, to stop a good war ? Especially when sooooo much money was to be made in war-related concessions/contracts ? Why spoil a good "party" with the truth and legit intel ops ?

Babylonsister's March 7th DU post at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x267177

tells us who the true target of this was ! The wars are already 'on the book' and 'in the can'. How can we prevent an Iran debacle ?

[BlackVelvet04]

28. Actually I think Toensing

was talking about the IIPA law not the executive order.

[rosesaylavee]

58. Do you have a link to that?

I am not familiar with the abbreviation you used to google myself.

[rosesaylavee]

76. Found the link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Identities_Protection_Act

Intelligence Identities Protection Act (IIPA)

[BlackVelvet04]

92. Here's a link to the actual part of the law

involved:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=429211

(4) The term "covert agent" means—

(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency—

(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and

(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and—

(i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or

(ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; or

(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose past or present intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information and who is a present or former agent of, or a present or former informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency.

[rosesaylavee]

103. So the part relevant to Ms. Plame is:

(A) a

present

or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency—

(i)

whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information

,

and

(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States;

or

(B)

a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information

, and— ...

(emphasis mine)

So, even though the fact is that Ms. Plame did indeed serve as a covert agent abroad in the 5 years previous to her 'outing' by the traitor Novak, it doesn't matter. Her relationship to the agency was classified. Novak was warned and he chose, for whatever political reason given him by his keepers, to go ahead and out her in his stupid article... may he burn in hell.

Or, as simply as H2O Man has stated above,

Toensing lied and continues to lie when she states that Plame was not covert.

As VT helped write this law, she should know the entire law and not the short nugget she keeps repeating.

It's taken me a while to get my head around the whole thing but I think I have it now.

[BlackVelvet04]

115. Correct....

on top of that is a point I've made a couple of times. The CIA doesn't provide cover stories for all of it's employees but for the covert agents. Plame had the cover story of being employed by Brewster Jennings & Associates. That made her "under cover" or covert.

[rosesaylavee]

117. So the 'desk job' was her cover.

[BlackVelvet04]

120. Exactly.

I worked for a federal law enforcement agency many years ago. Agents were often sent on covert operations but their whole job wasn't a secret. People knew they worked for federal law enforcement but when they went undercover it was to an area where it was hoped people wouldn't know them and they were provided with a cover story....cover employment.

Federal law enforcement agents typically do not allow their photos or their names to be published in a newspaper for the very reason they often go undercover.

[Patsy Stone]

125. Yep

Which is another reason Vicki made a fool of herself. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=432722&mesg_id=433413

[Nickster]

82. She was talking about the IIPA, but she was avoiding the fact that the executive order

is the overriding law that guides the IIPA not the other way around. She also was trying to say that the intent of the IIPA was what she was using, not necessarily the way the IIPA was written or understood by Congress. She's screwn either way though. The IIPA seems pretty clearly written to cover Plame's status and deciding the intent of the law isn't up to Vicki.

[Qutzupalotl]

88. But...that would mean Victoria Toensing is...

less important than she thinks she is!
:rofl:

[DemReadingDU]

49. That was an odd question, about the 5 years

Why wasn't Plame asked if she had been out of the country within the 5 years of being outed, from 1998 to 2003? Instead, the question was asked if Plame had been out of the country within the past 5 years, from today.


REP. CUMMINGS: Number two, the Identities Protection Act refers to travel outside the United States within the last five years. Let me ask you this question -- again, we don't want classified information, dates, locations or any other details -- during the past five years, Ms. Plame, from today, did you conduct secret missions overseas?
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Plame_hearing_transcript_0316.html

[rosesaylavee]

53. I heard that and thought perhaps Cummings had

mispoke when he asked that question. Either way, she was covert for her travel overseas as per the law cited by Vickie T.

[frogcycle]

72. either he misspoke

or he was aware of the fact the CIA still won't acknowledge she worked for them before 2002 - that's why she can't get her book published - so he was just trying to cover all the time he could

[Auntie Bush]

155. Good catch froggie. n/t

[EVDebs]

97. Let's speculate that Plame and BrewsterJennings were working on IRAN.

Does this follow a template of sandbagging legitimate intel ops in favor of OSP/WHIG bullshit ? Let guys like 'Curveball' and Chalabi call the tune, not our own intel experts. Intell sold to the highest bidder. GOP stupidity. Rhymes.

[bleever]

101. I was surprised to hear her specify she was working on WMDs in Iraq.

That was, to my knowledge, the first time that was verified.

Of course her work likely included Iran as well.

[EVDebs]

161. What they can't speak about but left us guessing about. Sibel Edmonds needs a hearing on TV now too

to bring this all into perspective.

[bleever]

164. That day is coming,

I trust and push for.

:thumbsup:

[SharonRB]

133. What a great idea!

Karma's a bitch, isn't it?

[rosesaylavee]

134. It would be one way the country

could atone for what has happened to her. However, I don't know what can be done for her colleagues and contacts that lost their lives due to this leak. Perhaps as the CIA chief, she could enact some measures to prevent the politicizing of intelligence.

[rosesaylavee]

5. AND, if there is a congress critter

more stupid and unthinking than Lynn Westmoreland, I would like to know who that is.

[bigtree]

6. the criminals in the WH still have no significant fear of the people

but, they're definitely looking over their shoulder at all of the commotion from Congress. We do need to bolster that gathering pressure with our own activism and participation.

Thanks for the links.

[Me.]

7. Saw JW On The Today Show This Morning

He came out swinging on the fact that VP was asked her political affiliation. Also, he said something that confused me. He said we don't know who told Cheney and Rove. Was that just to push the conversation of this matter forward?

Very proud of his wife's presentation yesterday. Said people who watched called her luminous. The contrast between she and Toensing is like day and night.

[H2O Man]

9. If I were to

speculate, I would say that while it is "known" that Tenet told Cheney about Plame, that there is evidence that our fearless vice president already knew. And there is reason to believe that VP Cheney knew about Valerie Plame as much as three months earlier than from the Tenet conversation, through sources involved in the OSP operations. I think it is possible, even likely, that the Wilsons' civil case will reveal things that go beyond what the Libby case did .... things that DUers read about in the 2004 Plame Threads, for example.

[babylonsister]

11. The fact that Cheney visited the CIA numerous times, enough so

the agents were uncomfortable and felt he was looking over their shoulders, indicates to me Cheney really did know her identity. And I imagine all those visits were made to put pressure on the agents and agency.

[DemReadingDU]

16. Did Cheney look over Plame's shoulder too?

I wasn't sure from her testimony whether she implied that.

[babylonsister]

18. I don't think she made that clear but generalized. nt

[EVDebs]

98. Begs question, 'was Brewster Jennings working on Iran ?'

THEN start begging the next question...

[H2O Man]

167. Right.

I think that helps clarify some of the issues that are involved in what she can or cannot talk/write about. Iran. That is, of course, what the information the neoconservative/AIPAC scandal involves -- the preparation for expanding the violence to Iran.

[Me.]

12. Mining The Data

We know the OSP did, which leads one to wonder, just how much raw data they got their hands on, did they ever have proper clearances or were they just handed the keys to the safe and told to go at it. God knows what these people got their hands on. It may not even be too much of a stretch to consider that these people became the re-incarnation of Hoover. We have no way of knowing everything they did or who they muscled to do their bidding.

[KoKo]

79. And, doesn't Westmoreland's hounding about Joe and Valerie being Democrats fit in

nicely with what we now know the US Attorneys were being pressured to do....Go after Democrats. Obstructing Jutice by Partisan Witch Hunt.

Very Nixonian...as we know. I wonder if Westmoreland will ever regret his statement. Because it opens up an avenue already being explored that might not be welcome for the Repugs. :shrug:

[Lerkfish]

15. here was the contrast between Plame and toensing:

and



but soon it will be:




I"m meeeeelllllttttinnnnngggggg!

[Me.]

20. Toensing Was Made For The Part

I'm surprised she didn't screech "I'll get you my pretty"

[Lerkfish]

21. She almost did. I called her the "republican shRill"

[AllegroRondo]

181. If Repubs bring up that she is a Democrat

the proper response should be: "are you suggesting that her cover was blown because of her political affilitaion?"

[Tennessee Gal]

10. H2O Man: Question for you

Couldn't the key to the unknown source of Plame's identity be the memo on the plane trip to Africa?

[H2O Man]

40. The memo was an important part

of this, and especially the manner it was passed about on AF1. But there is more to the story that will come out. I would suggest that it might involve a small cell that was later absorbed by the OSP. In last week's TIME, there was mention that Cheney's kids used to call him "bull walrus." I keep thinking about a connection with another walrus.

Lots of walrus in the administration. Enough that I have a Lennon tune in mind:

Expert, texpert choking smokers
don't you think the joker laughs at you
See how they smile like pigs in a sty
See how they snide
I'm crying
Semolina pilchard
climbing up the Eiffel tower
Elementary penguin singing Hare Krishna
Man, you should have seen them kicking
Edgar Allan Poe

I am the eggman
They are the eggmen
I am the walrus
Goo goo g' joob
Goo goo g' joob
Goo goo g' goo
goo goo g' joob goo

[babylonsister]

65. Another walrus? Bolton comes to mind immediately. nt

[H2O Man]

68. He should. n/t

[Me.]

69. You're Talking About CTEG Or The Wurmser-Maloof Group?

The off-shoot of the OSP known as Counter Terrorism Evaluation Group (CTEG)

“hose close to the investigation say that a second Cheney aide, David Wurmser, has agreed to provide the prosecution with evidence that the leak was a coordinated effort by Cheney's office to discredit the agent's husband.

Wurmser, Cheney's Middle East advisor and an assistant to then-Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs John Bolton, likely cooperated because he faced criminal charges for his role in leaking Wilson's name on the orders of higher-ups, the sources said.”


“They were initially denied access, for example, to the most highly classified documents in the Pentagon computer system. So Mr. Maloof returned regularly to his previous office in the Department of Defense, where he still could get the material. "We scoured what we could get up to the secret level, but we kept getting blocked when we tried to get more sensitive materials," Mr. Maloof said. "I would go back to my office, do a pull and bring it in."

www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/21/23268/971

[H2O Man]

70. They were

one of the three "cells" that was involved in espionage. They are enemies of this country.

[Me.]

73. Who Was The 3rd.?

We have OSP & CTEG, who else? Anything to do with Bolton?

[Senator]

84. Since it's Q/A time

I was wondering what you see as the mechanism by which more "will come out."

Because at the moment, all I hear is the Rutles.

Hey, diddle diddle
The cat and the fiddle
Piggy in the middle
Do a poo poo


--

[H2O Man]

106. I think that

a significant amount of information has come out by way of Mr. Fitzgerald's investigation. I am pleased with the testimony yesterday, and think that we are in a good position to lobby representatives and senators to move forward on this. And I think that if the civil case continues, that a lot more will become public.

Further, if the case involving the neoconservative/AIPAC espionage scandal continues, that a great deal of information will become available.

I think that the public depends upon an educated group of citizens pushing these issues, both in congress and in the media. I believe in the power of a dedicated, active grass roots democratic movement. I believe in the US Constitution, and especially in that Bill of Rights.

Those are the mechanisms, the vehicles, the engine, and the energy that will bring these things forward.

[Senator]

162. Ok, thanx

I was just wondering if there was something I was missing.

==

[vanlassie]

179. You said a mouthfull there, H2O Man

"I think that the public depends upon an educated group of citizens pushing these issues, both in congress and in the media. I believe in the power of a dedicated, active grass roots democratic movement. I believe in the US Constitution, and especially in that Bill of Rights.

Those are the mechanisms, the vehicles, the engine, and the energy that will bring these things forward."

My hat is off to you.

[WiseButAngrySara]

13. The White House commited crimes. Indeed. And people

really don't care? I'm not yet quite that cynical (I fervently hope).

:kick: & R and Will Do H2O Man!

And thank you again for all of your valuable input. A DU Treasure you are!

[mmonk]

14. Seriously, everybody do this.

It's an area we can push to take back our country. There's no more powerful path to take than the truth.

[H2O Man]

51. Amendment #1

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


"For the Bill of Rights is the guardian of our security, as well as our liberty."
-- John F. Kennedy; October 29, 1960

[Major Hogwash]

17. After Valerie Plame Wilson testified yesterday, there has to be a 2nd case coming from Fitzgerald.

Because the "other shoe" hasn't dropped yet.

On the chart that all of the House members of that subcommittee referred to, there was a black box on the chart to represent the person who told Cheney and Rove about Valerie Plame Wilson's identity at the CIA.

That person committed treason.
He sold out Valerie Plame Wilson purely for political reasons.

And by the way, where in the hell is George Tenet?

[mmonk]

22. Go at it one angle at a time and people tend to get more nervous

as it approaches their role.

[Wednesdays]

61. The chart

[DemReadingDU]

90. Unknown black box

The more I read, I'm not really convinced that the unknown person in the black box did anything wrong. That person could have been in a meeting where people were discussing WMD's. Perhaps Plame's name came out at some such meeting. The 'unknown' could be Tenet, or Rumsfeld, or Hadley, or Bolton, or ??. All of these people should have known not to reveal her name to the public. But somebody concocted a plan not only to out Plame, but also Brewster-Jennings. And this is the person that should be tortured for treason.

[Me.]

99. I Think The Fact That The Felons In Question Deliberately Planned A Work-up

on Wilson, and were saying they were going to bring in the earthmovers says to me there was nothing accidental about how they discovered her identity. Finding out every bit of info about their enemies was their MO. And if they couldn't get what they wanted through normal channels they had no problems taking the back staircase.

Which brings up a point of the jury. On the Imus show Matalin, when questioned on the Libby verdict said the jurors were all greens. The next time she said they were a mix of greens and dems. Was she talking out of her hat, trying to dismiss their verdict on the basis of their party affiliation, or had they done a work-up on the jurors too?

[ms liberty]

19. K&R for another excellent post...and re: that Replican tool Westmoreland...

When he asked the political affiliation of Amb. Wilson and Ms. Plame, I swear my head exploded. I was so angry I could spit nails, and I was SCREAMING at the television! She handled it graciously and with class, but I really wanted her to show some anger, although I understand and appreciate why she didn't. I posted this on another thread yesterday about that exchange:

"IMHO, it's the only thing about her testimony that I disagreed with. I think she should have showed some anger and/or disgust, and said something to the effect of "Sir, I am an AMERICAN. I have served my country and risked my life for my country without regard to political affiliation for XX years, and my political registration has had no bearing on my devotion to my job or my country, although it may have influenced those who betrayed me, my colleagues, and my country.""

I'd now add to the above that she should have finished with, "But since you ask, Sir, I am a registered Democrat - a Proud Democrat - and it makes me no less a patriot than any registered Republican."

And as for Victoria Toensing - well, all I can say is that she was stripped of her veneer of nonpartisanship. I thought the Democrats on the panel were very effective in their questioning, leaving her naked and exposed as the neocon shill that she so obviously is, and her testimony and answers were with far less grace and class. She really didn't enjoy her time in the spotlight yesterday, did she? (HA! LOL!)

[mmonk]

24. McCarthyism is alive and well.

[frogcycle]

66. indeed

but the chilling thing is, back then it was communists - who at least could be loosely associated with a foreign power that was generally known to be an adversary

now they are trying to associate all Democrats with "terrorists". the target group is 'way bigger (about half the population?), the association is spurious, and the adversary nebulous

[druidity33]

36. i would love

to see Toensing squirm, but missed the first live run of the committee hearings. So far all that's been posted is VPs testimony. Anyone have a link to Vicki's shilling?

[DemReadingDU]

87. link from crooks and liars

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/03/16/waxman-v-toensing/

[druidity33]

140. thank you!

though i think it must cut off in the middle somewhere... sort of stops in mid-stride...

:shrug:

[blm]

37. Valerie should have asked him if he was asking to cover up for Republicans

because he is a Republican.

[DemReadingDU]

26. Plame testifed that Novak did it, wrote the article to out her

Apparently she was aware that Novak was writing this article prior to it being published. Why couldn't the CIA have done more to protect her identity? Didn't the CIA warn Novak not to publish this article?

[Me.]

29. Bill Harlow Told Novak Not To Publish

We don't know how aggressive he was about it and may never know as he hasn't testified (at least in public) and that info may stay confidential. The neos have put it out that it was a casual comment. But what if, Novak was seriously warned, and Rove told him to ignore it. M. Waas has postulated that there was a conspiracy between Novak/Rove/Libby, where things were agreed on, this could be one of them. We'll never know, as Waas says, unless one of the 3 fesses up/

[DemReadingDU]

32. In hindsight, maybe the CIA

wishes they had taken Novak/Rove/Libby on one of those secret flights to another country and dropped them off there for awhile ;-)

[Tennessee Gal]

30. Yes, the CIA contacted Novak through Harlow

Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/26/AR2005072602069_pf.html

[Me.]

33. Nice Catch On That Article

Interesting that he's speaking

[Tennessee Gal]

38. It's an old article.

July 2005

[DemReadingDU]

39. Thanks! I had forgotten that detail

so many details in this scandal, and other scandals.

[feminazi]

111. That article contains points worth repeating.

Reps Davis and Westmoreland (or dumb and dumber, if you prefer) mentioned several times yesterday that the CIA did not do enough to protect Plame's identity. Specifically with regards to Harlow's conversations with Novak, they implied that Harlow should have told Novak that Plame was covert and, with that info, he wouldn't have outed her! How's that for logic?

Davis and Westmoreland know that Harlow was not permitted to reveal classified info to Novak. They don't care how ridiculous they sound. They just want to confuse the facts of the case with irrelevancies (are you a Democrat or Republican?).

Novak didn't fall off the turnip truck and suddenly find himself in DC. He's not that naive. If you get a call from someone in the CIA saying "don't publish her name" you err on the side of caution and you don't publish her name. Except that's not what Cheney and the rest of the boys wanted him to do. They wanted her name out there because they're retributive, evil bastards.

Rep Davis kept insisting that Libby, Rove, et al didn't know Plame was covert so disclosing her name was not a crime. His suggestion for the CIA to better protect their covert assets in the future?... perhaps they should provide a list of undercover agents to someone in the government (I don't know who he was suggesting specifically) so officials would know who was covert and not accidentally blow their cover. And he said this with a straight face.

As Valerie testified yesterday...merely mentioning the CIA and/or CPD should have thrown up the red flags.

I wouldn't even out a "desk jockey" at the CIA. But several different administration officials just happened to reveal the true identity of a NOC to several different journalists and we're supposed to believe it was accidental with no harm intended?

[BlackVelvet04]

130. Great point.....

"I wouldn't even out a "desk jockey" at the CIA. But several different administration officials just happened to reveal the true identity of a NOC to several different journalists and we're supposed to believe it was accidental with no harm intended?"

When I worked in D.C. if you asked someone where they worked and the said "the agency" you dropped the discussion. EVERYBODY in D.C. knows you don't reveal the name of a CIA agent in the newspaper, covert or not, without permission.

[TacticalPeek]

156. Rep Davis - ... perhaps they should provide a list of undercover agents

'Gee-golly, I don't have a list of secret agent names, so how am I supposed to know what to do? Can't the spies do a better job of keeping my mouth shut?'

:shrug:

[frogcycle]

172. Novak should be in jail

[mmonk]

31. She was NOC. Rules are they aren't even supposed

to know she exists.

[H2O Man]

34. Right. n/t

[spanone]

44. Watching Waxman spanking Toensing was Priceless.

What a vile POS that woman is. To hear her speak with her obnoxious 'holier than thou' attitude and watching Waxman tell her 'I'm not yielding my time to you' was fantastic. These people can not LIE TO CONGRESS. For six years these criminals have had to answer to no one. It's about time America purge itself of these disgusting, hateful 100% politically minded traitors.

A kick and a recommend.

[kohodog]

50. Two questions

Valerie said that CIA produced a damage control report. Will this ever be acknowledged and will congress look into it?

Secondly, there has been little mention of Brewster Jennings and her covert work on WMD. Do you think any light can be brought on this in the civil trial or will it require congress to investigate behind closed doors?

[H2O Man]

55. Good questions.

{1} As Ms. Plame noted, that report has not even been shared with her. I'll say this: enough harm was done to the Agency by the OVP's operation against Wilson and Plame, at an extremely sensitive level, that this information will never become public. A very few people in congress might know a very little bit about it, but they are not allowed to share it with others in congress.

{2} The civil case is focused on damages to the Wilsons as individuals, done by the OVP/WHIG folks, in an operation distinct from their duties as members of the administration. Thus, while they cannot sue for damages to Brewster Jennings, if the case moves forward, they will be able to show that she had a specific job, and that the OVP/WHIG operation made it impossible for her to do that job.

In the end, the Plame scandal requires that there are consequences in the criminal case(s); the civil case; and by way of congressional investigations.

[troubleinwinter]

80. Other employees of Brewster Jennings:

"The civil case is focused on damages to the Wilsons as individuals, done by the OVP/WHIG folks, in an operation distinct from their duties as members of the administration. Thus, while they cannot sue for damages to Brewster Jennings, if the case moves forward, they will be able to show that she had a specific job, and that the OVP/WHIG operation made it impossible for her to do that job."

Surely these people have been damaged by the outing of Ms. Plame/BJ (along with unknown others), as they aslo had a specific job made impossible by the exposure??

Would BJ employees also have been NOC?

Would these individuals also be able to sue?

Would their being NOC or not have any relation to suing?

[feminazi]

114. Brewster Jennings was the cover company.

I would assume that other "employees" of BJ were also covert.

[troubleinwinter]

122. Yes, I do understand that everyone at BJ

was CIA. They all were endangered and their covers blown with the outing of Valerie and BJ.

I am asking about them potentially also suing.

[never cry wolf]

119. A light bulb just clicked, I think some of the gop rhetoric is setting up the civil defense

I believe it was Davis who pressed VP about her rank and said asked if she could still advance in the agency despite no longer being covert. Then the silliness in the AP report about Wilson's book and VP's upcoming book. A defense attorney could possibly successfully argue that Plame could have continued her career at the CIA and in addition the entire outing has brought them a significant financial windfall due to book royalties, speaking fees, possible movie contracts, etc.

That would not address the danger the Wilson family was put in, or the angst at the loss of a job she loved but it would not surprise me to hear these memes sneak into the MSM coverage.

[Morgana LaFey]

149. Can't imagine there aren't dozens if not hundreds of

CIA folks who will NEVER forgive these bastards for what they did. The callous disregard for human life, and the blazing arrogance are simply astonishing, breathtaking.

[Octafish]

52. It was good to see Congress exercise its Constitutional power.

Waxman and the Democrats officially exposed the "administration" and their quislings for the traitors they are. Combined with the criminalized prosecutor affair and all the other corruptions great and small, a fusion reaction is building that will end in a mushroom cloud over the headquarters of the BFEE.

Thank you for all you've done in bringing Truth to Power, H20 Man. Because the Press failed so miserably in its Constitutionally mandated obligation -- disseminating Truth -- your research, insight and vision have been major factors in getting the word out to the general public.

Now it's We the People's turn to exercise power. You've even given us the address how.

[H2O Man]

59. Right.

I have an essay that focuses on the strengths and weaknesses of the press in regard to the Plame scandal, that I've been going to post for a couple of weeks. Probably in the next week, I'll put it on DU. It's not going to surprise anyone on DU .... the corporate media often failed the public. There are "journalists" who were working for interests other than their editors, much less the public. There were others who were afraid to tell the truth. And there were some who mistook being Bush administration cheerleaders with "journalism."

And there are a number of journalists who have done us proud. Many are not found in the corporate media, or at least not in the "main stream" press. A number of these are "bloggers," and people who participate on internet sites like DU. I'm pleased that I have had the opportunity to participate in some discussions on DU that have served as a resource for a wide range of folks interested in the scandal.

[Cerridwen]

54. Have I told you lately, H2O Man, how very much I appreciate

the time you take to make clear what's what regarding Valerie Plame and what happened to her and what it means for all of us?

Just in case I haven't lately...THANK YOU!

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[H2O Man]

56. Thank you.

I do appreciate that people read the things I post here.

[WHAT]

147. My favorite post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x400556

I spent a long time thinking about that because it is a gnawing interest of mine. I really took umbrage with this post...

I have not had the pleasure of reading all of your posts, but this one is off the charts.

Until the last paragraph, that is. You have much more hope than I, for a few reasons.

First, I find myself in agreement with the power elite in that our species has not shown me much to think that we have the wherewithal to change our destructive habits. I do not agree with them in their response to human tendencies towards a tragedy of the commons, but I have very little hope that even if we take a more proper course at this point can we avoid the deaths of many, many people.

Second, I see little hope that our legal structures and mass awakening provide hope for a necessary change from that destructive path. The Constitution has so far been insufficient, and the people, even though they seem to be awakening, do not appear to be motivated to make the wholesale sacrifices necessary to avoid a precipitous species decline brought on by unsustainable consumption.

I do believe, though, that if hope exists, it is in the amazing work that people like you are doing to publicize these problems. Thank you.

unctuous and intimidating (cue aei).

Your last paragraph interests me, in particular, because it brings to mind the parable of the blind men and the elephant...in order to see the whole picture, one must conjur ALL of the perspectives "witnessed". There must be a way of combining the macroscopic with the microscopic to obtain a more focused view. "Critical Path" doesn't have to do with intention...but, perspective. Is that perspective narrow or broad? I would suspect the acuity of anyone shaving the pie down to a bite-size sliver.

This brings to mind an again tangentially appropriate observation...the spread of "english" as a dominate language (I'm sure the uk nobles are crowing about that); but, this english on the cue ball does not take into account that sequential reasoning is being imposed on a picture perfect apprehension of nuance. In other words or graphs, the left and the right brain are working in tandem...and the resulting comprehension might make-up for what is lacking in focus. My bet is for the bi-cameral. (depth perception wrt ideas)

Anyway, I like your posts because they always leave the gate open.

By the way, I think the 100 year plan will be a source of finger painting by the children of the future. The ok might last as a nostalgic reference to when the world view offered two choices to a splendacious future...

riffing off the last point, I wonder how many resources the 1%ers consume wrt the rest...the numbers. Could the excesses of the top tier be shaved to accommodate the expressions of the latter? Would such an invocation free a lot more possible solutions ? and add a confab of the "meetings of the mind"?

I don't think the uk will last another 100 years except statically...a picture...criticized, praised or discounted, an object of discernment fit to focus the discriminatory taste of the left-behind statics.

Also, in reference with that last post I cited, decisive action might just be detrimental to their health in that survival might be more apropos of a larger perspective...

on edit, my first intention was to say I appreciate your threads, but, I got lost along the way...

[conscious evolution]

74. I have a question

During the hearing I heard several Dems mention they had a list of questions that the CIA had cleared to ask plame.I am assuming we heard all oof the questions she was allowed to answer.
Does anyone know what the questions she was not allowed to answer are?

[sutz12]

75. Obviously, those would be classified, or they could have asked them. nt

[halobeam]

150. maybe thats not what the poster meant....

maybe the question could be rephrased, would we be allowed to see the questions although we are not allowed to know the answers.

just a thought.

[conscious evolution]

159. I am thinking

I wonder what direction the questions could point to in the whole matter.While I'm sure some of the questions themselves are classified I am also equally sure that some questions,while the answers may be classified,the questions themselves may not hit on classified info.I would also think that some were classified for CYA purposes by the admin.

[antigop]

77. Thank you, H2O Man! If I may add one more item to your call to action

Call Waxman's office and thank him and his staff.

(Yes, they were doing their job, but appreciation for their fine work should be shown, IMO.)

Again, thank you H2O Man, for your wonderful work.

[spanone]

81. Keeping Kicked!!!

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick::kick: :kick:

[sellitman]

83. Would we have any chance at all if the internet didn't exist as it does today and

Patriots like H2O man didn't have a way to spread his knowlege?

Thanks for all you do!

:toast:

[AikidoSoul]

85. A question and a worry: Was Plame the only target or was the goal also to shatter the investigations

into who was proliferating nuclear weapons? If that is so... then the crime may be the crime of the century because it would mean that Cheney et al purposefully cut off the legs of a monumentally important national security protection.

At some point I read fascinating DU posts that seemed to suggest that Cheney may have wanted to shatter the investigations into nuclear WMD activities because he wanted to protect himself and others in the administration.

Is there any reason to think that is true? If so, is there a well developed thread that I can have access to? Unfortunately I didn't save the thread and there is just too much on DU to find it in the posts of the past two months or so.

The worry: That the "ruining" of Brewster Jennings may not hold much water because it may not have been a very well developed cover -- at least according to news reports. I think the Boston Herald had something on this -- that BJ was in a beautiful, well-known Boston building but that there was not really much of an office there, if any. The details are vague in my brain but what stuck with me was the part of the article that said if BJ was so important... why wasn't its physical presence more developed?

H2O man... I deeply appreciate the work you've done on this and any additional resources you can provide to elucidate these issues.

K & R

edit -- changed one word for clarity

[rosesaylavee]

105. Have you checked out the DU Research Forum?

There are a number of links discussing Cheney's role in this in the DU Research Forum (see Richard DICK Cheney in the following index). leveymg has a few posts that have been saved there as well as several by H2O Man. More will be set up this week.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x192

[H2O Man]

108. Years ago,

I wrote a little essay for DU that I called "the Waterman Paper." In it, I mentioned that if one considered the calls that Valerie Plame Wilson made in the hours immediately after reading Novak's article, they would have the exact reason the OVP/OSP/WHIG conducted the operation against the Wilsons. It was not limited to them.

[AikidoSoul]

180. You could get a PhD on this topic

I will need to study this very carefully before I can make any decent contribution.

Again -- I thank you sincerely for all that you're doing with this. I also appreciate all of those who are contributing. There are several DUers who seem to have a grasp on the details.

[IChing]

86. Thanks H2O, Question

Executive Order 12958: http://www.fas.org/sgp/clinton/eo12958.html

Obviously this section was not followed in compliance
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sec. 5.7. Sanctions. (a) If the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office finds that a violation of this order or its implementing directives may have occurred, the Director shall make a report to the head of the agency or to the senior agency official so that corrective steps, if appropriate, may be taken.
(b) Officers and employees of the United States Government, and its contractors, licensees, certificate holders, and grantees shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently:

(1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders;
(2) classify or continue the classification of information in violation of this order or any implementing directive;

(3) create or continue a special access program contrary to the requirements of this order; or

(4) contravene any other provision of this order or its implementing directives.

(c) Sanctions may include reprimand, suspension without pay, removal, termination of classification authority, loss or denial of access to classified information, or other sanctions in accordance with applicable law and agency regulation.

(d) The agency head, senior agency official, or other supervisory official shall, at a minimum, promptly remove the classification authority of any individual who demonstrates reckless disregard or a pattern of error in applying the classification standards of this order.

(e) The agency head or senior agency official shall:

(1) take appropriate and prompt corrective action when a violation or infraction under paragraph (b), above, occurs; and
(2) notify the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office when a violation under paragraph (b)(1), (2) or (3), above, occurs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I have not researched this further into the relationship that is in this provision
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART 6 GENERAL PROVISIONS
Sec. 6.1. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall supersede any requirement made by or under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended, or the National Security Act of 1947, as amended. "Restricted Data" and "Formerly Restricted Data" shall be handled, protected, classified, downgraded, and declassified in conformity with the provisions of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended, and regulations issued under that Act.
(b) The Attorney General, upon request by the head of an agency or the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office, shall render an interpretation of this order with respect to any question arising in the course of its administration.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you looked any further into this?

Thanks for the great work..........IChing.

[merh]

89. Have you seen this?

What do you think of this comment by Senator Christopher Bond?
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWViZGQyOTc2OTJjY2JkMzE2YjI4Y2M2ZGMzZTkyMjQ=

edited link

[Lerkfish]

91. Kit bond making a statement is all you need to know about the veracity of the statement

source= someone incapable of being honest.

[merh]

94. That's what I thought.

It's just more of the disinformation that they are putting out there. I hope Waxman addresses it.

thanks

[H2O Man]

109. I think that

Rep. Waxman will address it.

In regard to this fellow's statement, I think it is about as surprising as a dog barking, or a chicken clucking. I suspect that a dog's bark may have far more meaning, however.

[merh]

128. LOL, I do love your posts.

Your language is as rich and vivid as it is on point.

thank you :hi:

[Annces]

100. Wake up democracy, wake up

Happy St. Patrick's Day

An Adzehead shall come across stormy sea:
His mantle hole-headed, his staff crook-headed:
His dish in the east of his house:
All his people shall answer him Amen, Amen;

[Patsy Stone]

102. An excellent cause to support

The Wilson's deserve our respect and whatever spare change we can afford to give them.

Whether or not Valerie was covert, exposing her employer was just plain wrong. It dismays me to see that this is a crowd who would brush off stealing candy from a baby because it's not technically illegal.

I'd like to know when, exactly, did the Administration decree that ultimate judgment of an action's moral rectitude become inextricably linked to its legality?

Another wonderful post, H20 Man!

[rosesaylavee]

107. Patsy, we all know that date!

Surprised you of all people had forgotten. It was 12/12/2000.

Wish there was a smiley icon that could simultaneously laugh and sob to go along with the above.

[Patsy Stone]

110. That was a bad, bad day.

:hi:

[rosesaylavee]

Yes, I am optimistically looking forward

to an end date that will 'bookmark' this time in our history - a definitive end date from which we can start moving our country forward on a road to political and economic recovery.

DISCLAIMER: the above fantasy comes without ingesting any foreign or hallucinogenic substances! Simply a result of reading intelligent posts such as this one that indicate there are many many thinking individuals out there who will assist (and are assisting by their present actions) in turning this nightmare around.

[Patsy Stone]

116. One day, my dear...

And it's getting closer all the time. Let's hope we can stop them from doing anymore harm before then.

[bleever]

113. Tom Davis insisted there was no evidence her covert status was known

when it was leaked by administration officials.

Yet Rove spoke to Novak on July 9 and Cooper on July 11, when we know that the State Dept. memo was being passed around Air Force One on July 7. Even Ari saw it; is there any question Rove would have been faxed a copy?

The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517.html

In fact the memorandum was written almost a month earlier, and likely had been in the hands of the WH for a few weeks already when it was passed around the plane in Africa:

The memorandum was dated June 10, 2003, nearly four weeks before Mr. Wilson wrote an Op-Ed article for The New York Times in which he recounted his mission and accused the administration of twisting intelligence to exaggerate the threat from Iraq. The memorandum was written for Marc Grossman, then the under secretary of state for political affairs, and it referred explicitly to Valerie Wilson as Mr. Wilson's wife, according to a government official who reread the document on Friday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/16/politics/16memo.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=3e2d268b91d325bc&ex=1174190400

This strawman that "no one knew she was covert when they leaked her name" will become a focus now. It's pretty clear that whether or not they knew she was "covert", they knew they were dealing with information that was explicitly marked as classified.

It doesn't look good for the administration as their firewalls and Maginot lines keep failing.

[Patsy Stone]

118. No one could have anticipated

someone at the CIA might be covert.

Davis had a list of talking points he had to get on the record. Half of the time, I don't think even he believed what he was asking. That's not to say he's not a tool, but I'm pretty sure he recognized how stupid he sounded.

[bleever]

123. "Sure, we knew she was CIA,

but a secret agent?"

It is astounding that there was NO caution exercised, regardless of a specific warning.

Geez, it's like they were the kind of people for whom caution labels are put on toasters, reading "not for underwater use".

[BlackVelvet04]

131. If they all knew she was a secret agent....

it wouldn't have been very secret, would it? ;-)

[DemReadingDU]

127. It would be helpful if the MSM

would discuss her outing, by this country, in every segment about the Plame hearing. It blew her cover. This is treason. People understand that.

Instead, I am still hearing that Plame sent her husband to Niger, and she had a glamorous photo up in Vanity Fair.

The media needs to get out the facts, forget the spin!

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

129. If you live in N. VA, go to his town meetings - he also claims the hearing are just partisan

http://tomdavis.house.gov/cgi-data/upload/files/Town_Hall_Schedule.pdf

I never thought I'd see the day when investigating treason would be portrayed as a partisan endeavor.

[Joe Chi Minh]

176. Alas, for the Republicans, ItsThe MediaStupid, he is absolutely right.

It is indeed absolutely partisan. The Democrats are not implicated in it in any way at all. It's has the Republican imprimatur on every page, with the direst legal warnings against a breach of copyright appended thereunto.

[Garbo 2004]

138. Beyond the INR memo, Libby's notes indicate that Cheney told him in June that Wilson's wife

worked in the Counterproliferation Division of the CIA. CPD was in the Directorate of Operations....where the spies are. Highly sensitive. Directorate of Intelligence is where the analysts are. No doubt (given the degree of the OVP's hands on involvement with the CIA) that Cheney and Libby knew the difference and the significance of the CPD vs WINPAC which was in the Directorate of Intelligence.

But when Libby leaks to Judy Miller he tells her that Wilson's wife works in WINPAC. Why? Libby was covering the traces with a bit of disinformation. It was a deliberate misdirection on Libby's part IMO, just as his request that she source the info to a "former Hill staffer" rather than a "senior Administration official."

Another point not brought up in Libby's trial but contained in the indictment: Libby spoke to Edelman, also in the OVP, on the phone in June and Edelman asked if they could release info to the press regarding Wilson's trip to Niger to counter the allegation (not made by Wilson btw) that Cheney sent Wilson (then still the publically unnamed ambassador) to Niger. Libby replied that they would have problems with the CIA in disclosing that information and they couldn't discuss it on an non-secure phone line. (Why? Libby knew the CIA's report of Wilson's debriefing as well as the INR memo were still classified.)

Yet in June and again in July Libby discusses Wilson's trip and his wife with Judy Miller of the NYT.

Libby knew the info was classified and futhermore was in a position to likely know or figure that Valerie Wilson was not a mere analyst but an "operative" as Novak would later write in his column. (According to Novak's testimony at trial, on July 9 Novak spoke to Libby about Wilson's trip to Niger. And yet according to Novak's "recollection" Libby didn't give him any info about Wilson's wife. If July 9 is really the correct date, this was one day after Libby had again spoken to Judy Miller and Novak had spoken to Armitage. Novak also spoke to Rove on July 8 or 9th.)

[H2O Man]

146. One of the most

important parts of the Libby-Miller adventure is how Scooter lied to her about a couple of issues. He did not make honest errors -- he lied. The other one that comes to mind is his saying the other parts of the NIE that he couldn't share with her actually provided stronger proof of Iraqi WMD programs. These lies were, I assume, one reason she turned on Scooter.

[bleever]

151. The WINPAC part was a swindle.

Scootie was deliberately misinforming Judy so she'd run with the story. I suspect that H2O Man's correct that this contributed, eventually, to an aspen turning against him.

Somewhere in the unraveling threads and gathered bits of string are the pieces that prove the serious violations of national security laws that the right wing cries never happened.

It's just a matter of time, isn't it?

[frogcycle]

154. I believe they will hang themselves with that spurious "defense"

EVEN IF it could be used to protect lying traitorous scum like rove, cheney, et al - that black box knew.

No-one should have known that she worked there without being "read in" that they were receiving classified information. The "leak" didn't "just happen" because someone mentioned her name in the frigging supermarket.

And no-one with their security clearances should play fast and loose with names of CIA employees that they "just happened to hear," if that is what their defense is going to be. National Security is serious. Good lord, they harp on it all the time and use it to excuse violating the constitution, the ten commandments, and probably their neighbor's sheep. Someone at Rove's or Cheney's level should no more be "just chatting" and let slip something they "just heard" when it has ANYTHING to do with security than I should be on "dancing with the stars"*.

They CANNOT use the excuse of ignorance of her status. It was their obligation to FIND OUT before blabbing it. Remember "loose lips sink ships?"

That defense is every bit as impeachable as is the real case - that they did it knowingly. That defense says "I am a complete incompetant, should have my security clearance stripped immediately, and should be escorted off the premises in handcuffs"


There is just no wiggle room here.

They knowingly sabotaged an ongoing intelligence program related to WMD's in the hands of countries with expressed animosity to the US. That is treason. And anyone who makes excuses for this is a traitor, because they are aiding and abetting traitors.

That these very same people keep croaking the tired line that honest dissent from supporting their war "undermines" our troops, our "war on terror" and our national security is beyond description.


*if you knew me you'd realize how extreme a comparison that is

[WillyT]

121. Right On H2O Man !!! - K & R !!!

:kick::applause::kick:

[upi402]

136. Why yes, lets kick

the snot bubbles out of this story... shall we?

While the "journos" play it as partisan overkill.:grr:

[Patsy Stone]

124. Rep. Paul Hodes

A special thank you is due you, Mr. Hodes. You brought up the insta-declassifying of the NIE, and the fact that Rove still has his security clearance. For that, you have my undying gratitude.

[IWantAChange]

170. I will gladly second that Thank You - Rove's stench seems to permeate everything.

[Morgana LaFey]

148. Good plan and

we definitely ought to help financially, to whatever extent we individually can.

I would especially call on all those DUers -- men and women, sadly -- who find Valerie Plame "hot" or have otherwise noted and commented appreciatively about her physical appearance. We certainly want to get beyond that little bit of sexism and straight to really, substantively supporting and appreciating her, don't we?

[Disturbed]

152. Anyone that says that Valarie Plame and Brewster Jennings

were not Covert are lying Traitors to America.

I still have a small shred of hope that this Treason will be followed to the persons that committed it and that they will be prosecuted and spend time in a real Prison.

[Tristan]

158. Great Post! (n/t)

[midnight]

163. Very important reminder on the responsibility of keeping our

beautiful republic maintained and in good working order. We cannot afford to allow our american citizens who put their lives at the disposal of their country to be thought of with such little re-guard. It is tragic; that the intelligence community that, from what I understand took decades to put together to track wmd, was ripped apart in such a short amount of time. It is even harder to swallow that is was done by the White House. Very tragic. It seems to sum up the last six years as well.

[mahmoud al_hazen]

168. The United States is ungovernable, again.

n/t

[frogcycle]

169. I am compelled to get off my duff

and award this thread, most notably the OP, an Algae Award.

I have been remiss over the past months in collecting several candidates but not getting the work done to get them posted. Thank you H2O MAN, both for the OP and for the shove. I'll be filling in the blanks with more awards; nominations always welcome.


H2O MAN

to browse the Algae Awards site:

Algae Awards

And before anyone criticizes my including my own responses, just read the rules governing Algae Awards.
The question is MOOT! I get the car!

[Me.]

177. Does A Statuette Go With That?

:bounce:

[frogcycle]

178. Hadn't thought about that

I guess I could hold a contest to design one...

[Me.]

182. Maybe Something Like A Frog On A Lily Pad

zapping a fly.

[myrna minx]

183. This is a very good discussion.

Did anyone catch Hardball on Friday where Ron Brownstein of the LA Times cautioned the Democrats about going too far with the Plame outing investigations? :rofl: He was baffled as to why people care about this at all. I couldn't decide if I should be outraged by his comments or embarrassed for him. I guess the mere hint of Congressional oversight makes the Washington stenographers very uncomfortable.