Some very disturbing trends here re Prop 8.

[Le Taz Hot]

Read 'em an weep.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1

[Kilroy003]

1. Party ID Breakdown

YES NO

Democrat (42%) 36% 64%
Republican (29%) 82% 18%
Independent (28%) 46% 54%


edited columns

[depakid]

2. Interesting that income didn't matter much if at all

Considering that education mattered a lot.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

3. Hmmm...

What I'd like to know are the reasons given by Californians for voting in favor of Prop 8. And, no, I don't mean the usual "because they're bigots/prejudiced." Be that as it may, people usually hide such sentiments behind a straw man argument. In particular I'd be interested to know why a good chunk of the middle class voted for it.

[orestes]

5. Their churches told them to

[mrfrapp]

6. Phrasing

A "yes" vote was "no" to gay marriage while a "no" vote was a "yes". That's must have been part of the problem and I bet that the proponents of Prop 8 anticipated that when they phrased the proposition.

[XemaSab]

14. The "yes on 8" crowd really put out a stream of garbage

Among other things, they were saying that kids would be taught about gay marriage and forced to attend gay weddings.

It was basically a big "protect the children" crapfest.

[plaintiff]

4. Not really surprising...to me. Infuriating but not surprising.

:grr: :shrug:

[Le Taz Hot]

7. We can't ignore this:

Vote by Race & Sex

White Men:
Yes: 51%
No: 49%

White Women:
Yes: 47%
No: 53%

Black Men
N/A

Black Women:
Yes: 75%
No: 25%

Latino Men:
Yes: 54%
No: 46%


Latino Woman:
Yes: 52%
No: 48%

[JuniperLea]

8. It's about religion...

The highest "yes" voters are in ethnic groups who make up the largest percentage of church-going (so-called) Christians!

Churches have made marriage something religious. There is no getting around this. The argument needs to be framed so as to avoid all the arguments made by the churches. Marriage is a sacred thing to them and it corrupts their ability to think logically about this issue.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

11. I noticed that as well.

I can't think of a rational way to work around that unless there is some way to prove concretely that allowing gay marriage is a benefit to them and not a threat.

[JuniperLea]

16. Exactly!

Finally! A voice of reason.

Some people on DU seem to think that despite my long history of supporting gay rights, I've suddenly become "the enemy" because I'm trying to help in a way that doesn't support their own ideas.

I was raised in a Fundy church, and now consider myself a "recovering" Fundy/Agnostic. I know exactly what the Fundies think and what their arguments are. Their basic mantra is that gays are not following God's will because they cannot procreate, and God told us to go forth and multiply. If all hetero women actually bore children, that argument might have held a tiny bit of water.

My basic idea is that Jesus taught us that we are all God's children, that we don't have the right to judge others, and whatever we do to our brothers and sisters, we also do to him. So what the Fundies, Catholics, et al, are doing now is shunning gays, trying to shove them back in the closet, judging them harshly, etc. What Jesus taught goes right out the window with these self-righteous types. They are making gays the new lepers, and forgetting how Jesus himself treated "these, the lesser of my brethren".

It's a big mess. But if any progress is to be made, we have to stop arguing semantics and get down to the basic memes. I prefer fighting them with their own gospel. They are biblically wrong, wrong, wrong to discriminate this way. No one is trying to force them to "accept" gays. They don't have to allow gay marriages in their churches, there is no thought police to punish them for thinking gays are wrong. All that is needed is for them to live and let live, you know, like Jesus did.

God didn't put us all her on Earth and force us to follow any laws. I think it is sacrilegious to force what you may think is a law of God upon others. If God had wanted laws forced upon all, he would have done it from the beginning, and there would have been no need to put us all on Earth in the first place. We would still all be in the garden.

[EFerrari]

10. But that's not proportional, is it? n/t

[SoCalDemocrat]

9. Marriage is a farce

We need to focus on equal rights for all Americans.

Marriage should be decoupled from our legal system and remain as an independent religious/cultural artifact.

[Johonny]

12. It's probably the smartest approach

Civil unions would have passed rather easy... now. But it took the gay marriage legalization to make people comfortable in it. Separate but equal isn't constitutional either and most gay couples don't want what they consider a second class marriage. Most married straight couples won't want their marriage turned into a civil union. The voting trends show the more people hear of the issue in general the more comfortable they are in gay marriage. In which case they should keep putting props up to vote over and over again and eventually it's going to become and remain the law. Once again it would be a huge help to remove the current governor who is no help on this or basically any democratic issue.

[girl gone mad]

13. I agree with that.

It's state interference with religion.

If your religion says it's okay to marry a consenting adult, the state should stay out. They can give Civil Union licenses, but the government doesn't need to be involved in religious ceremonies.

[XemaSab]

15. That is the way it should have been fought

:shrug: