Uproar hits Fla. Confederate flag show

[billbuckhead]

Uproar hits Fla. Confederate flag show

By STEPHEN MAJORS, Associated Press Writer Sat Mar 17, 2:43 PM ET

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - When artist John Sims sees the Confederate flag, he sees "visual terrorism," and a symbol of a racist past. When Robert Hurst sees the flag, he is filled with pride as the descendant of a soldier who fought for the South during the Civil War.

Their differences have flared into a war of words, catching a local museum in the middle.

Hurst walked into the Mary Brogan Museum of Art and Science this past week and saw an exhibit by Sims, including a Confederate flag hung from a noose on a 13-foot gallows in a display titled "The Proper Way to Hang a Confederate Flag."
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Art defeats terrorism. One thing liberals need to never forget about the confederacy, they started the war. Further, they started the war after losing an election. The Confederacy was the most violent war mongering anti-democratic force ever unleashed on the USA. With all this bowing and scraping to the confederacy in this nation today, we are giving the confederacy a legitimacy they lost on the battlefield.

[hlthe2b]

1. Civil wars divide peoples for many many generations..

That is what we are seeing, imo. The confederate flag is surely a divisive symbol. I firmly believe that it belongs in historical museums, not art museums, or elsewhere (certainly NOT on state flags), but outlawing the symbol or its censorship is sure to open up wide divisions.


Having said that, this exhibit was predictable in its outcome. I don't believe in censorship of any kind, but if one sets out to be provocative, you don't get to feign surprise at the reaction..While art can be provocative, if the only reason for presenting it is to be provocative, that's not art, it is a red flag in the face of the bull. That kind of representation belongs in political cartoons, as its value as "art" has been lost, imho.

To the OP, nothing is as simple, one-sided, and black v. white as you describe. To paint those who supported the south so uni-dimensionally is like hearing today's RWers paint the current situation with the Muslim world. These were your fellow Americans. While you and I would not have agreed with much those who fought on the side of the South believed, painting all Southerners of the time as uniformly evil or stupid, or traitorous, is just WRONG. It betrays a sense of intolerance, and yes, bigotry, that can only lead to further strife.

[MADem]

2. Quite the statement, that--no mistaking!

Like the elephant poop/Virgin Mary. It's art. It's confrontational art, but it's art.

Those Confederate supporters weren't my fellow Americans. But then, my people weren't here when that shit went down. I can't muster up much sympathy for them, frankly. I can understand how others might, especially if they are related to them and the "right" color. But I'm not in that crowd.

Hell, Al Sharpton has Confederate blood in him, more than likely. We know Essie Mae Washington Williams does, because we KNOW who her daddy was. I think their views should be considered as well...as children of the Confederacy, too.

[hlthe2b]

5. MADem, my ancestors were still in Ireland and Germany..

and were not a part of this as well. But do I wear the badge of sin for what the latter day generations of Germans did, because I carry a drop or two of German blood? I am American and these too are Americans.

There is ignorance that remains that allows for attitudes towards the civil war to remain. We don't get past that ignorance by shaming the descendents forever more. With every later generation, Southerners get further away from the indoctrination that occured from their elders, become less defensive and more open to exploring the wrongs committed during that time period. That is what we should enable-- not more angry blanket accusations and shame towards the descendents of the confederacy.

[MADem]

27. Now see, I have to differ. I don't want to get in a fight, but they chose to leave the United

States of America. They turned their back on the Union. Sure, Mexicans are Americans, too, as are Canadians, and Brazilians, if you want to get technical, but geographical proximity is a different thing entirely from national identity. They chose to SEPARATE from America. That was their wish. The only reason they didn't succeed is because they didn't win.

I don't think we should denigrate the descendents of these people, but all of this 'honoring the Confederates' shit just doesn't strike a chord with me. We don't celebrate Benedict Arnold's birthday, why honor these bastards, whose actions caused so many deaths?

Hey, war sucks. And that one sucked especially. But I don't wear a badge of sin, because I didn't do it, I don't endorse it, and I think the Confederates were selfish, brutalizing assholes.

And I'd feel that way if my Great-great grandpa were Robert E. Lee himself.

People who "own the shame" do it of their own free will. All they have to say is "What a buch of assholes they were" and no one will put it on them. People WANT to get past that crap, but it's the flag waving "heritage" types who muddy the waters. We don't see Germans waving a Nazi flag and whining about heritage with that symbol, do we? No, the ones who do that nonsense we refer to as dangerous, hateful, fringe lunatics. I think it's time we put Scarlett O'Hara and the happy singing negroes to bed once and for all...that rag belongs in a museum, not on a flagpole, and not on a car bumper. And anyone who sees it as anything but a racist symbol just isn't thinking right.

That's my opinion. YMMV.

[hlthe2b]

35. I'm confused... Where in any of my posts have I advocated...

"honoring the Confederacy?" By my suggesting continuous rubbing the faces of confederate descendents in the unfortunate decisions made by their elders, thereby making them "guilty" by descendency, to be wrong, I don't know how that equates to "honoring the Confederacy.." :shrug:


And I will disagree with you. While I certainly would NOT have sided with the Confederate cause (at least as sure as I can be, not having lived during the time), as in most wars, there were undoubtedly HONORABLE people fighting on both sides. Blended in among the hotheads, were undoubtedly conflicted individuals, who like we who tried to stop the current war in Iraq, were merely pushed aside. Others were probably too naive, or uninformed, or misinformed at the onset of the war to take a counter stand, but as the war went forward those distinctions became more blended. At some point all who fight in most any war are fighting for their survival.. the original point and issues are lost.

And, since you bring up the fictional "Scarlett O'Hara," while many now believe Gone With The Wind is without redeeming merit, I call your attention to the monolog that Rhett Butler delivers to the confederate "hot heads" at the Wilkes barbeque, as the lust for war is batted about under the guise of "honor." I dare say, this fictional character captures exactly what you, yourself (and most of us in hindsight) would have said to the testosterone-driven "righteous rebels." There were undoubtedly voices like the fictional Rhett Butler trying to stop the momentum, just as there were many in this country trying to stop our current carnage. Do we hold those who tried, but were unsuccessful, fully responsible for what occurred? An age old question, I suppose....

[MADem]

37. I'm not averring that you are. But if those descendents of those Confederates

insist on holding their dead relatives up as paragons, they're open to criticiam. They don't get a pass just because they didn't fight the war, if they're cheering on the Old South by thought,word or deed.

It's not guilt by association alone, see--that would be wrong--it's guilt by insistence that "Gee, great-great grampa did a good thing by fighting for slavery!!!" It's guilt by hearkening back to the delights of the Old Plantation days (that's what the Scarlett reference was about, not the literary work, specifically) while ignoring the suffering of those upon whose backs that lifestyle was built.

There was just nothing NICE about the system of slavery, and nothing HONORABLE about defending it. If Great-great grampa were a child molester, or a murderer, well, one wouldn't hold it against the subsequent generations, but the subsequent generations wouldn't go out of their way to take pride in it, either. It's the same damn thing. No one is celebrating "Hitler Days" in Germany, now, are they? There isn't an entire YEAR dedicated to Rommel in his hometown, now, is there? People don't dress up in Nazi regalia and march through Berlin doing reenactments, followed by a barbecue and a peach cobbler bake-off, do they? If the remembrances of the war were a bit solemn, and had a bit more of the "Geeez, That Was a HUGE Fuckup, That" attitude surrounding it, instead of glamorizing the debasement of humans, I might not be so adamant.

Frankly, I don't think these guys are heroes: http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=117491&ran=87492

I find this kind of crap offensive: http://www.dixiegeneral.com/

And these sorts of proposals, well, sickening: http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/16913251.htm

ATLANTA - A panel of Georgia lawmakers Thursday signed off on a plan to create a Confederate heritage month, even as the legislature's leaders were giving a cool reception to a push to apologize for the state's role in slavery.

The bill is sponsored by Sen. Jeff Mullis, a Republican whose family owned land on which the Civil War's bloody Battle of Chickamauga was fought.

It would dub April as Confederate History and Heritage Month to honor the memory of the Confederacy and "all those millions of its citizens of various races and ethnic groups and religions who contributed in sundry and myriad ways to the cause of Southern Independence."

So, until the descendants of these people, the ones who continue to glorify a disgusting and inhumane period in our shameful history, wake up and smell the coffee, they aren't getting sympathy from me. I'll save mine for the descendants of the slaves they brutalized.

It shows how far we still have to go, this shit. 1865 was a while ago.

[hlthe2b]

38. Sure... on some level I agree...

But mixed among this population are plenty of descendents of poor slubs and "white crackers" who had no interest nor responsibility for the slavery issue... So, it is very complex and we can't equate their defense for the actions of their ancestors, as we would someone defending the great grandfather-- who was the slaveowner (or pedophile)... :shrug:

[MADem]

47. All they have to do is disavow the actions of their ancestors. It's that simple.

I'm sure Great-great-great-grampa loved his wife and kids, but he was an obtuse asshole who made some hideous mistakes" would do.

Slavery was part and parcel the REASON for the fight--the South was afraid they'd lose it, and they couldn't have that. And slavery was the only thing that gave a poor white slob with no slaves a small degree of "status" and someone to look down on.

Lincoln emphasized preservation of the Union as his reason for the fight, but it was undeniable, as it wore on, that the slavery issue was in the mix and couldn't be separated out.

There's just no reason to "celebrate" those days. I cannot relate, in any way, to those who do. I think they're devoid of a basic quality of empathy, of decency. In the old days, you could use that "Awww, we learnt what we wuz taught" bullshit. But nowadays, people know better. PBS and the History Channel make it below the Mason Dixon. The myth of the old cracker South is just that--a myth. That "Awww, shucks" shit is bullshit. This disgusting racism disguised as "heritage" is what it is, and those that perpetuate it know what it is, and they do it anyway.

Southerners need to step up and stop lionizing "heroes" who fought for their right to continue enslaving people. They need to "celebrate" with ceremonies of atonement, reconciliation and unity. And they need to stop dressing up little Beauregard in the damn Confederate outfit and sash. And burn that damned flag purchased from the Dixie Store.

This shit is simply disgusting: http://www.spofga.org/Updates/2003/nov/southern_heritage.phtml

These children are thinking "Oh FUCK, this is my Macaca moment--there goes my Senate career!"


Available in plus size for fat bastards:



Oh, geee...isn't this FUN!!!



There's just nothing celebratory about that era. That's how I feel about it. And when I look at crap like these pics, I feel it even more strongly. They should save their costume money, and donate it to the UNCF. A mind IS a terrible thing to waste!

[hlthe2b]

49. Denial and self-justification are strong coping methods...

Just look at the numbers of parents of killed troops, still staunchly defending the current war debacle in Iraq... Admitting mistakes--or heaven help us-- accepting that our children (or ancestors) died for naught, is not an easy thing for some to do... Now those justifications have been imprinted on generations of southerners... It won't go away overnight... In that respect, it truly IS their heritage...

And people who feel they have been victimized (rightly or wrongly) are very slow to embrace alternate beliefs.

Look I lived for years throughout the deep south, even though born out west... I understand where you are coming from and share your frustration. But, living among those whose roots go back many generations in the south, taught me how very complicated the situation is. I have seen tremendous progress, though, and migration patterns (among those moving into the south from elsewhere, as well as returning southerners who have lived in other regions)will probably help change entrenched views over time.

[MADem]

50. Those sad parents aren't perpetuating a mythical culture of slavery, though

It's simply not the same sort of thing. The Iraq War is contemporaneous, too--this is ancient history.

It's coming up on a hundred and fifty years of this foolishness. Time for the grey uniform and yellow sash set to burn their uniforms and flags and just GET OVER IT.

Because here's the bottom line--in another few generations, they are gonna be the minority. Their daughters aren't going to be wearing hoop skirts, they're going to be going to the hoop game with their dusky boyfriends. Their sons aren't gonna be wearing yellow sashes, they're gonna be sashaying at the school dance with their brown sugar sweethearts.

They'd be well advised to make nice with their brown and black skinned neighbors before they actually have to--it would make the gesture seem a bit more sincere.

[hlthe2b]

51. You make a mistake in stereoyping the entire South

as racist. A really sad, mistake. This is what makes Southerners so defensive--those who mistake a desire to showcase the hoopskirts and other elements of the period with celebrating slavery.

Yes, some of these descendents are racist... most I believe are not.

[MADem]

57. Enough. You make a mistake in ASSUMING I stereotype the entire south. Your BIAS is showing.

What part of the "grey uniform and sash set" do you extrapolate to mean the entire SOUTH? A hoopskirt by ITSELF is one thing, a hoopskirted hoo-hah with a grey uniformed fat fuck on her arm is another thing altogether, and YOU KNOW IT.

You have a persecution complex. I know the south. I've lived in FL, GA, VA and SC. I've spent sufficient months in TX, LA and TN to "get the spirit."

See, you are the one making the sad mistake--not permitting people to comment on an UGLY subset of southern society (and we know they exist, else there would not be threads on these lines) without ASS-uming that the comments bleed over onto the entire population. And finger wagging, as though my commentary makes people defensive, and it is MY FAULT that I don't understand the glorification of a racist, oppressive "tradition." Sorry, fuck THAT.

Quite frankly, I blame people who immediately 'get defensive' for perpetuating this racist horseshit. If a few southerners who don't like this crap would have the stones to stand up and say "ENOUGH of this bullshit!" instead of saying "Oh, well, AH don't like it...but it's .... uh...heritage...and we should be UNDERSTANDING..." then this shit would CEASE.

It's called PEER PRESSURE, and maybe a few more southern folk should start EXERCISING it.

Those who allow it, those who stay silent when they don't actually accept it, are ENABLERS and as bad as the flag-waving, grey uniform wearing NITWITS.

And they should feel the shame to their core, instead of trying to EXCUSE the behavior.

If you aren't one of these racist enabling people, STAND UP. Say you think the glorification of the Confederacy is HIDEOUS and offensive. Otherwise, get out your yellow sash and saber and go stand with the other team.

And that's my set opinion on the matter.

[hlthe2b]

8. Art is subjective and its value is in the eyes of the beholder...

I can not argue your valuation of what is art any more than YOU can legitimately do so to me.

[MADem]

32. I agree with that statement. It's confrontational art to me, it's shit to you.

I found those shower curtains in Central Park by that Cristo clown to be a complete load of garbage myself. People got furious with me because I flat-out refused to see it as art. I saw it as a complete con job by a washed up, one-trick buffoon.

You have every right to your view, and I'd be the first to defend you if anyone gave you noise about it. Art IS an individual thing.

Edit: misspelling

[ChazII]

4. Well said. n/t

[VTMechEngr]

9. Completely Disagree

The men in the south who took up arms against their country were traitors under the US Constitution, and not my fellow Americans! You may consider it wrong to call them traitorous, but the fact is, per Article 3 section 3, they were.

[hlthe2b]

10. WE were talking about their descendents... the current generation

Do you deem THEM to also be traitors? Do you believe all southerners of the time, whether they fought or not to be traitors?

[VTMechEngr]

12. I took it that the argument was over the rebels of old.

After the war, the southerners took oaths of loyalty to the US, and regained their citizenship, so no, the current generation would not be traitors. However, the southerners of the time were and were pardoned en Mass. They either actively fought the US, or adhered to the CSA, and by being part of the economy and citizens of the CSA, gave aid and comfort.

I just took offense to the revisionist view that the confederates were still our countrymen. Three of my ancestors gave their lives to send those traitors to hell and defend this great country.

[hlthe2b]

14. you understand and know the history...

it is not you who are casting the traitor label freely at today's southerners... Unfortunately we do have some on "our side" who do.

However, as a fellow student of history, I have yet to find a civil war in any country, where there were not "sins" on both sides. While those who initially decided to go to war might fit the definition of traitor, the late fighters are just as likely to take up arms after witnessing atrocities against their own. That happens in war... It is hard to equate these groups of fighters and it becomes insane to try to paint one side as universally "right" and the other completely "wrong" (or good v. evil). Just as you point to ancestors who gave lives to send someone on the other side to their "rightful" hell, there are families of confederate fighters who feel similarly. At some point every fighter is firmly convinced they are fighting for their own (and those of their family's) survival. You will never convince their ancestors otherwise... You can, however convince them that some of the issues upon which that war was initially justified were WRONG... A real comparison to today's Iraqi situation among our RW and Independent Americans, eh?

No war is ever that simple to have clean and absolute distinctions of who was right and who was wrong...

[VTMechEngr]

17. As you point out correctly

My view is tinted because of my ancestors fighting for the USA, and my natural feelings of support for my country. It used to surprise me that some can be proud Americans, but still harbor feelings of support for an enemy of that same country. I guess it comes down to pride in ones ancestors, and the fact that in the end, the southerners were readmitted to full citizenship.

War is Hell, and horrible acts occurred on both sides. It is said that Civil Wars are among the bloodiest. The Southerners, as the rebels, rightfully feared the result of the rebellion being crushed, and so they fought quite bravely and ferociously to ensure their survival. History before this showed that a rebellion that is crushed ended with a great slaughter of people. The Northerners had a fear that their country may collapse, and also anger at the rebellion to drive them.

Both sides had high ideals of government forms and policies:
And yet, when you aim your weapon at another man in uniform who is aiming at you, all those high level issues disappear, and it is simply - Kill or be killed.

I see the Confederate battle flag much as I see the Nazi flag, both document the history of a people, but both also have stood over great evil. The Nazi flag stood over brave men defending their children and wives from enemy armies seeking to destroy their cities, just as the Confederate battle flag stood over equally brave men fighting for survival and independence. But we do not view the Nazi flag for this part of its history, for the far shameful acts it stood watch over make it one of the best known signs of pure evil today. The Nazi flag is now associated with the horrific acts and slaughters that the Nazi regime committed. In the same spirit, the Confederate battle flag is tainted with the epic racism and terrorism that followed the war for the African-Americans. While one may view the flag and think of the bravery of their ancestors facing down cannon fire and muskets, far too many see this flag as a symbol of evil and oppression, which invokes terror in their minds. I can see the Nazi flag associated with the time period in a museum about WWII quite tastefully, but if seen being waved on a street, I known it is not done because of pride, it is done because of hate. I realize that many southerners disagree, and feel pride, but they need to understand that they will never convince everyone who sees the flag as a symbol of oppression that they have a rightful intention. I continue to feel that the flag is best served in a museum, and not in public.

[hlthe2b]

18. Agree... and I think more and more Southerners agree

on your (and my) expressed views of the symbolic flag... It will die its natural death and be relegated to the history museums eventually. Much faster if we don't fan the shame into defensiveness...

[billbuckhead]

20. There was more dissent in NAZI Germany than in the south

Hell, the Confederacy inspired Hitler.

[hlthe2b]

36. History offers some lessons to be learned from both examples..

The intense regionalism, like the intense nationalism in post WWII Germany, had a lot to do with the detrimental allegiances that formed, against the nation's interest in the case of the US civil war, and against both Germany and the world's interests in the latter example. That blind allegiance was fostered by intense shame and a feeling of national humiliation following WWI in the case of the Germans, and likewise with the South, feelings of Northern aggression and unfairness, in the South.

Now, you and I can roll our eyes and accuse Southerners of ignoring slavery as a fomenting cause, and instead advancing "northern aggression" as the more "acceptable" cause of the civil war, but in doing so, we miss the point. It was a prevalent opinion at the time and continues to be a deeply held belief among Confederate descendants. Highly inflammatory displays, like the "art" exhibit, only serve to reinforce beliefs widely held by some southerners that they were and continue to be the "victims" of injustice. If, instead we allow the impact of time and history to change the view of these descendants in terms of the issues upon which the war was fought, the need to defend these highly divisive symbols will fade as well. But, like the bell for Pavlov's dogs (sorry, but the best example I could quickly point to), every time we make a people feel defensive, and "unfairly accused," we reinforce those old beliefs...Worse, it reinforces some very divisive beliefs that are detrimental to our progressive ideals and current politics.

[efhmc]

3. You are going to have a big problem convincing many southerners that

they were not fired on first. That is why it is called the "War of Northern Aggression". The rank and file of soldiers of the South (and North) were common farm boys who were motivated by the "ideas and ideals" that had been drummed into them with their mother's milk. Legitimate or not, these concepts were why they were fighting. The problem is that over 140 years later, some have still do not realized what a lie the whole thing was.

[hlthe2b]

6. ...

yes.... the defensiveness and indoctrination that held firm in subsequent generations of Southernors is starting to wane. But, those once hardened attitudes will surely re-strengthen when they feel compelled to defend themselves against these overt and very accusatory exhibits.

[efhmc]

11. I grew up when the words yankee and damn were never

separated. The only people I still find so over the moon about their southern heritage are very old or very bigoted. My Mom was born in Missouri in 1912 and had a set of grandparents on each side. She got in major trouble by whistling "Dixie" at one of the homes. (That and the fact that "a whistling girl and a cackling hen soon come to no good end". Keep those girls down, a concept they could be agreed on on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line.)My Dad's family was very Confederate. It is hard to really know and understand history unless one has lived it. That is why I thought the Ken Burns' documentary (The Civil War)was so revealing because the letters and pictures of the times were so real and so unglamorized. Still I agree that the Confederate Flag is a very continuous item. A college friend refused to get into the truck of an exchange student who had one on his windshield. He thought it was just an "accepted cultural item" since he was in school in the south. She told him he had the right to put it there but she wasn't sure he understood what it meant to many, including her. She explained and he took it off.

[Clark2008]

7. I guess it'd be shocking if he was using the Confederate flag - but

he's not.

He needs to take some history lessons.

That flag is the battle flag of Northern Virginia.

[efhmc]

15. Can you explain that to me? I can't tell anything different by the Yahoo

picture. Is that a current or historical item?

[RB TexLa]

25. This would be the last official flag of the Confederacy

The one used in the display was never a "national" flag of the confederacy. The length it appears to be would make it the Navy Jack of the confederacy.

[RB TexLa]

19. Looks more like the navy flag

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. It is. The Confederate Naval Jack.

The Confederate Naval Jack

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. No it isn't. The Confederate Battle Flag is square. The flag the bigots fly is the Confederate Naval

Jack which is what is used in the art piece by an AA who is RIGHTFULLY offended by it. We all know why the KKK, Minutemen and Aryan Nation use that flag and what it represents TO THEM. RACISM.



The Confederate Naval Jack

[Clark2008]

39. Correct. eom

[fishwax]

45. he doesn't need any history lessons. He's using

the flag with the symbolic power. Using a different flag would create an entirely different meaning, which apparently is not what he had in mind.

[BlooInBloo]

13. Fuck confederate flag bigots.

[HRC_in_08]

21. those that fly it or those that oppose its use? eom

[BlooInBloo]

23. Fly, or support its flying.

[HRC_in_08]

24. agreed wholeheartedly. eom.

[BlooInBloo]

28. Sigh. So much for the choice insults I was preparing, in case you were one of 'em. :)

[HRC_in_08]

29. lol. I was thinking the same thing pending your response to my original question. eom.

[BlooInBloo]

31. LOL! Touche!

[donsu]

16. (sorry Bill I didn't see your thread) - racist hate art

racist hate art

[HRC_in_08]

26. could you explain a little more clearly what you mean? sorry, but it is not clear to me. eom

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. donsu started another thread with the same topic and at the end of his original post

he posted "racist hate art".... hate of racists who fly the flag or support flying the flag. Here's his thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x441131

edited to add link to thread

[HRC_in_08]

34. I asked the same question there.

It is a little confusing given that the story relates to an art exhibit containing the flag. Thanks.

[ComerPerro]

40. There is no pride in being a descendant of a Confederate soldier

they weren't common folk heroes who stood up to an oppressive government. They were just dupes who were manipluated into fighting to expand the influence, power, and wealth of a small group of southern land owners.

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. There is a lot of pride for my husband and his family. His father was

named after a Confederate soldier who owned no slaves; who came from a family that owned no slaves. As such, a confederate flag would not be flown from our porch (here in Michigan), nor would it be if we lived in Tennessee. But you may find one folded carefully among the family's things in many trunks.

I cannot fault the soldiers who are fighting in this war, just as I cannot fault so many of the soldiers who fought in that war; and I can understand my husband's pride.

[ComerPerro]

43. well, they can believe whatever they want

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. And you can say whatever you want. That doesn't make it true.

In fact, it's not.

[ComerPerro]

48. well, it is true that the so-called "rebellion" was a power grab by the wealthy elites

[Skittles]

53. the only place I would fold that f****ing flag is in a fireplace

it is a g.d. DISGRACE

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. Sorry. You and I disagree on that.

it's fine where it is. Thank you. I suppose I should talk my husband into changing our name as well.

[Skittles]

55. all I know is

if my boyfriend showed any deference to that piece of shit flag I would kick his ass - and what the hell do names have to do with anything?

[ScreamingMeemie]

56. My husband's name, and that of his father, is the name of a Confederate

soldier. That's "what the hell names have to do with anything". When you're ready to discuss it rationally, I'm around. I'll take my progressive husband any day over about 99.9% of the men I have met.

[Skittles]

59. you're not bound to the sentiments of your ancestors

heavens no

[fishwax]

42. liberals started the civil war after losing an election?

perhaps you mean democrats, rather than liberals ...

[SemperEadem]

46. the confederacy==treasonous terrorists

If one wants to be proud to be the progeny of treasonous traitors, then let them. It doesn't speak highly of them.

[ellisonz]

52. Burn it down! Burn it down! Just like old times, c'mon Union men!

(I am in no way advocating acts of violence.)

We won that anti-American war, the South can kiss my Union boot!



The 54th Masschusetts Regiment

:nuke:

:sarcasm:

[NorthernSpy]

58. confederacy nostalgia is the anti-Americanism of conservatives...

A substantial portion of the Right really DOES hate America. That's why so many of them worship the confederate flag and honor the memory of mass-murdering terrorists like Timothy McVeigh.