This is a volunteer military. No one forced them to enlist, and I don't see many refusing to serve

[still_one]

People pay for the consequences of their actions, that is a fact of nature

We invaded a country based on a lie, and obviously those serving do not have any ethical problems with fighting in that war, because if they did, they would refuse to fight.

Am I being harsh?

I will repeat it again, we invaded a country illegally. What defense can our soldiers use? I was only following orders? or

My economic situation is so bad I couldn't afford it?

Do those reasons hold any justification for the continued killing of civillians caught in the middle?

[demnan]

1. You don't understand

Most of these kids signed up in the guard and services after 9/11 out of a sense of patriotism. They signed up to go to Afghanistan to fight al Quada, they didn't sign up to fight an unprovoked war. Believe me, if one of these kids were yours, you'd feel a lot diferently.

[BlooInBloo]

5. You don't have to have kids to feel differently. Just rationality suffices.

[shadowknows69]

17. There are also tons of new recruits

that just want to go kill and cash thier bonus check. Not exagerating.

[still_one]

53. no you are not. I lived through Viet Nam, and I saw the blood lust against the "gooks"

Human nature hasn't changed

I am just curious how we can justify this as moral, especially today?

[still_one]

49. Do you remember Viet Nam? I do

I lived through Nam, and remember the same lies.

You say if one of my kids was there I would feel differently. My kids aren't there, and they know the distinction between a country attacking your country, and a terrorist act

You say they signed up to go to Afghanistan to fight al quada, do you have documentation to back that up, and even if you are correct, what about those that are enlisting now?

Why are they still fighting in Iraq then if they don't believe the cause?

I suggest they do believe in the cause?

Going to war should never be taken lightly, but when you realize that the war was based on lie, and you continue to fight that lie, than there are MAJOR MORAL issues that you are violating

[stirlingsliver]

52. VERY Well Said.

I agree with your thoughts.

Thanks for sharing them -- and for expressing them so well!

[still_one]

54. those who cannot remember the past who are condemned to repeat it.

George Santayana...

[Cabcere]

67. Welcome to DU, stirlingsliver!

:hi:

[Mick Knox]

Are you saying soldiers deserve "What they get"

because they didnt refuse to go to Iraq?

[still_one]

51. I am saying that when you go to war, especially one that is based on a lie,

THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES

Isn't KILLING SOMEONE IMORAL?

They cannot use the reason that it was because of 9/11 anymore, IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11

What do you tell an Iraqii child whose parents are killed by our bombs? Do they deserve "what they get"?

You play with fire, your going to get burnt

I have no doubt 5 years from now Americans and Iraqiis will still being dying in Iraq, and what will the answer be then?

[Selatius]

2. To date, no international or national legal body has yet declared the war bona fide illegal

You need to get a legal body to do so. Unfortunately, the US never signed the Rome Treaty recognizing the ICC.

[still_one]

55. How civilized........ NOT

[southerncrone]

3. Sadly, many of those in the military are there because it is the only

way they can afford to get a college education.
I teach high school in a rural area where many students can't afford to go to college. The recruiters are at our school almost every day. The boys flock to the tables & are wooed by the promise of paying for their education when they get out.
Unfortunately, now many cannot get out.
This is once again a poor man's military, just like Vietnam, even though there is no draft.
:(

[madeline_con]

6. Thanks for pointing this out.

A lot of people don't realize the military targets minorities and the poor, who have fewer options available.

[southerncrone]

21. They are actually quite aggressive these days.

My daughter got a letter in the mail that appeared to be a personal, hand-written letter. She did not recognize the name, but opened it anyway.
It was from the Air Force Recruiter.
They tell the kids only the positive aspects and are super salesmen.
I hate that they let them into the schools & have signed petitions here locally to prevent this in the future.

[jwirr]

35. And they do not always work fairly. I was visiting a Reservation

in Montana on the first of the month. The recruiters used the post office as their base. When the royalty checks for coal and oil came in on the first they were there because they knew that the young would show up for their checks. They used the old con: come on we will buy you a drink while we talk. The kids were not always sober when they signed up.

[still_one]

57. OK, join an illegal war to get a college education. Is that moral? /nt

[still_one]

56. Let me ask you a question: If a person is given a choice to engage in an illegal war

so they can get a college education, is that moral?

[madeline_con]

4. So, they risk ourt martial, no income and possible military jail

because they don't agree with DUH-bya?

I'm positive that many who signed up had no idea this was going to happen, forcing them between a rock and a hard place.

:popcorn:

[tbyg52]

7. Especially the ones who enlisted in the National Guard

What Bu$h has done to them is beyond despicable.

[madeline_con]

8. shameful n/t

[still_one]

60. It can be argued that it is even illegal to use the National Guard in this way

[TahitiNut]

33. Yeah ... but it's easier to throw stones from the cheap seats.

These are young people who are in service to the nation. The "nation" is We The People. Cheney/Bush are OUR mistake - the mess that We The People need to clean up. The 'buck' stops with the People. We haven't done our job. Until we're risking life and limb ourselves in the streets, like our young people in military service are putting their lives on the line, it's sheer craven cowardice to heap the blame on those with the least civil liberties and the most to lose.

[still_one]

61. What are the young people putting their lives on the line for?

Tell that to the Iraqii people, I was only following orders?

If the reverse happened here, and WE WERE INVADED, would anyone really accept that?

[NotGivingUp]

84. Excellent question! Would anyone really accept that???

[still_one]

88. Perhaps the disinformation is that pervasive

[still_one]

58. So the soldier at Mai Lai, when told to destroy the village had to do it

otherwise he would rist court martial, no income and possible military jail?

Funny how actions can be justified...

Who will tell that to the Iraqiis that have been killed?

Is it really worth it?

[dogday]

9. My Son is one of the soldiers of which you speak

Like many young men in their late teens and early twenties after 9-11, my Son signed up with the National Guard. Now here is the thing about the military that you should know... They must follow orders, the chain of command must not be broken....

The same military that is in Iraq may be in America saving your Ass one day... They fight for us, not politics, for the country, for the people... We leave the politics of war to the politicians, not the soldiers....

[Warren Stupidity]

26. Only paritally correct.

A soldier also has an obligation to not follow illegal orders. The OP's statement was vastly overstating the case, but there is a case that this is an illegal war of aggression in violation of our treaty obligations, and that consequently our soldiers should refuse to fight this war, as all orders to do so are illegal. That said, I have a problem with the expectation that the rank and file soldiers will or even should do this. I am in awe of those few who have stood up (lt. Watada for example) and said no to an illegal war, but I can hardly expect the average soldier to do the same. It simply takes too much personal courage, and the case for illegal orders is not clear cut.

However, lets complicate the issue a bit. Suppose you are a soldier assigned to the prison at abu ghraib in 2004 and you are ordered and encouraged to participate in the torture and abuse prisoners. Now reflect on your statement "They must follow orders, the chain of command must not be broken....". I claim that absolutely this is wrong in this specific situation where it is manifestly obvious that a gross violation of justice directly contrary to military law is in progress. Disobeying orders clearly becomes the soldier's obligation, regardless of the personal consequences to himself, in such a situation.

[dogday]

31. Breakdown in the Chain of Command

would be the end of our military as we know it... For better or sometimes, yes even for worse, these guys have to follow that chain...

[Warren Stupidity]

37. You need to go google UCMJ and illegal orders.

A soldier is obliged to follow all legal orders and is also obliged to refuse all illegal orders. It is that simple, and that complicated.

The theory that a "breakdown in the Chain of Command would be the end of our military as we know it" is the same thinking that leads one straight to the horrors of abu ghraib, behind which loom auschwitz and a thousand other war crimes all enabled by soldiers not willing to refuse illegal orders.

There is no order too odious to not be followed?

The clear requirement in the UCMJ to not follow illegal orders is meaningless?

[ends_dont_justify]

41. How can you say it's illegal when criminals make the laws, though?

That's how I assume many soldiers who have a sense of morality look at it. Their lives are at stake for disobeying or leaking; the ones who have the leighway to say it's illegal and state our opinion aren't left in another country at the mercy of madmen.

I do, however, agree with your statements 100%. I'm just saying that this is a gray area only because the higher ups impose it to be so. Where are our democrats screaming "This is illegal, US soldiers don't have to obey these orders" up in congress? They're pussyfooting the issues and it creates havoc for the soldiers...and the GOP criminals just keep saying "go ahead, it's legal."

[Warren Stupidity]

78. Oh I agree.

Which is why I said "it is that simple and it is that complicated". And why earlier I pointed to the situation at abu ghraib in 2004 as a more clear cut situation than the war in Iraq in general.

[dogday]

43. There are, and there are rare circumstances when a man

or a woman has to make a moral choice... I do believe that... But it is a rare circumstance...

[still_one]

62. I wish for your son to be out of harms way, but

"They must follow orderS, the cahin of command must not be broken...'

What if the action is an immoral action?

That excuse didn't fly in the Nurenburg trials?

What if you are asked to follow an immoral order?

Incidently, I believe the National Guard are being illegally used in this purpose

The National Guard is to protect the homeland...

[Madspirit]

10. Harsh Much

Most of the soldiers are kids who signed up in the emotions of 9/11. The operative part to me is "KIDS". For a species who claims to love it's children, we never mind sending them in harm's way and we are actually better than a lot, about that. Some send them even younger. Still, I would hate to be bound by any decision I made at 17 and yes, they can sign up at 17. You know, not old enough to buy a beer... KIDS. Period. I refuse to hold this war against the soldiers. Let's start making it where only people over 45 can be in active combat...you know...send the ones who actually start it. There would be no war if those fools had to go.
Lee

[Buzz Clik]

11. Flame bait.

And for those of us with family over there: fuck you very much.

[Mick Knox]

12. Very much flame bait

posted to make us look bad IMO.

[still_one]

66. I beg to differ. I am not posting to make anyone "look bad", except myself in your view

I am posting a moral question?

In Viet Nam, when Mai Li took place, the country was firmly behind calley, and the others. They justified it by reasoning that was what war is about, or they were only following orders

These are very real, and very ethical questions that should be dealt with. Maybe we wouldn't be where we are today if people thought about it

[cali]

18. I don't have family over there but let me firmly attach myself

to the sentiment you expressed towards the OP.

[Kingshakabobo]

42. count me in too n/t

[still_one]

69. First this is not intended as flame bait, but to ask a moral question

second, the post you responded to said it was to make us look bad?

What does that mean?

If you read the responses in this thread, they mostly DON'T agree with my premise, how does that make us look bad?

When is an individual responsible for a country's actions?

I don't think that is flame bait

It is a discussion, along with the IWR, and the Iraq War that is way over due

McCain makes a statement about "wasted American lives in Iraq", and immediately has to appologize for it

I have no doubt we will be in Iraq for years to come...

[Buzz Clik]

97. Your opening post was not asking a question but making a statement:

People pay for the consequences of their actions, that is a fact of nature

We invaded a country based on a lie, and obviously those serving do not have any ethical problems with fighting in that war, because if they did, they would refuse to fight.

You then pose your rhetorical questions as if daring someone to reply.

From your responses, you are clearly anti-military as well as anti-war. As such, there is no response to your "questions" that you would deem acceptable.

Regardless, it is very possible to be caught fighting a war that, given the opportunity, you would not support.

There is no possible way you could ever relate to those serving in Afghanistan and Iraq. Don't pretend you can, and please don't act surprised by the negative responses to your moral "superiority".

[still_one]

63. Five years from now when we are still there, and we will be, what will be the excuse

this is not flame bait, this is about the insanity of war

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION period

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

87. Likewise. n/t

[ends_dont_justify]

13. Back from a while ago I read many of these kids were outright told they won't go to iraq

Then there they went. If they had to be told that people obviously asked....iraq wasn't on their to do list and then they had to go out of fear or the risk of being shamed. Who wants to sign up for the military then immediately walk back a coward? What they need is someone to tell them they won't have shame for coming back from iraq...their sense of duty, sadly, is from the image this country portrays of patriotism.

We need people to learn what it really means to be a hero...and that's why we shouldn't condemn them. I know a guy who had to go to iraq....two years ago we became friends at a gathering. First year he was great, great attitude and was very kind. Then he had to go serve in iraq after he'd not been there for a while. He just got back for the next gathering...guy kept looking at me as if he had to resist the urge to not see me as a combatant (I'm a pretty big and tall person, and can come off as intimidating unless you know me.) He tried desperately to hide it and tried to be civil but I could see what was being done to his mind.

This war is destroying not just the living, but the lives they used to lead too....and sadly many of them don't know how to turn away. I don't blame them at all. I blame bush for letting 9/11 happen and adding to the number of casualties that disaster enacted. Atleast ONE Of those buildings could have been saved with immediate airforce departure to take down the airliner and bush either couldn't or wouldn't. That's good enough for me to say that he had every intent it happen. This war is only a continuation of american deaths for his inability to stop the carnage.

On Edit: I wanted to mention that I have a childhood lifelong friend who signed up for the military before all this iraq war BS. He's probably over there now as we've lost contact ever since -- I'd like to share the sentiments some other users have against the OP as well.

[still_one]

75. I blame bush, but I also blame the American people. There has been no real debate on Iraq

What does that say?

[JohnnyLib2]

14. It's long been an honorable profession. Then came Bush and his

disastrous misuse of the armed services. Please try not to confuse the two tracks. Many of us are trying hard to disentangle them.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. Many of those soldiers joined after 9-11

They wanted to go get the terrorists that attacked our country. Is it their fault the mission was diverted from that? Is it their fault that they get RW propaganda fed to them via Armed Forces Radio? A recent Zogby poll showed that 90% of troops in the Middle East still think Saddam had something to do with 9-11. You can't blame them for what they don't know.

[shadowknows69]

27. Many joined much later

I'm meeting fresh batches of new troops all the time. Recruitment might be down but it's not stagnant.

[Robbien]

16. Haven't you heard of Watada? He declined on the issue of illegality

The military has thrown the book at him and it refuses to accept the illegality defense.

His re-trial is coming up again soon.

[still_one]

64. Yes, and he will be honored for his courage to say enough it enough

[tbyg52]

19. "Am I being harsh?"

Not exactly, or at least not entirely. I'd say more like "way too simplistic."

[still_one]

65. That is definitely a fair critisism. I realize it is not that simple

but in the end our country is doing an immoral actions

and what is the distinction between the individual and government policy?

[WillyT]

20. Hmm... Posts Flame Bait... Doesn't Respond... Has Disabled Profile...

You make the call!

:shrug:

[still_one]

90. I have been posting, just a little late getting started

reason I disabled my profile is because I was threatened about a year ago, and saw no reason to advertise where I live

[kestrel91316]

22. "...People pay for the consequences of their actions...."

The bible says "The wages of sin is death". That needs to be thrown in the faces of those who think that their war is some sort of godly mission.

I got majorly flamed for suggesting this. You will, too.

[tbyg52]

24. In this case, *other* people pay for the cabal's actions

Nobody in the cabal has paid much yet, but one can hope.

[kestrel91316]

29. I suppose a mass guillotining a la The Terror in Paris during

the French Revolution would be a bit much to hope for......

[still_one]

77. When you have mccain have to appologize for saying we have wasted our young in Iraq

we are in deep trouble

We have a person who was a prisoner in Viet Nam not even being able to express an opinion for fear it might show the reality

I know I will be flamed, and I even understand that position, but it presents a terrible individual conflict

[Texasgal]

23. Yes you are being harsh!

Since when did being in the military become a less honorable" career choice?

My WHOLE family is either active or retired CAREER military and I am extremely proud of all of them.

[shadowknows69]

25. Knowing the mess this war is

and some of the atrocities our military has been actively engaged in I have to say that joining the military now has lessened the honor of the profession. Kids are signing up for 40,000 bribes, not on the assumption that they are defending their country but on the promise that they are going to have to kill for their country. This makes them mercs in my book. I willingly leap into the flames. The army is an open casting call for gang members and white supremecists who want to learn to shoot better and the pentagon is hiring all comers.

[Texasgal]

28. Really?

My brother joined the military TEN YEARS ago and is actively serving in Afghanistan.

How does that resonate with your statement?

My Father and my Grandfather joined decades ago and served PROUDLY.

My nephew joined shortly AFTER 9/11 on the premise that he was going to DEFEND his country!

Christ! This troop bashing ticks me off!

[shadowknows69]

32. My statement had nothing to do with people who joined 10 years ago

I have no doubt there are still good people joining the military but I still have to question their motivation. As much as has come to light about Iraq, I have a hard time with anyone joining knowing they might be part of contributing to that. I've met too many who are joining just to "Kill Iraqis" or "Blow some mother fuckers up" or 'blow away some towel heads" to not be a bit concerned for the "honor" factor in our army.

[Texasgal]

34. I'd like to see some sort of proof that

the military is actively pursuing these types of people.

I realize that there are stories of Abu Garib and others, but DAMN... most of our military folks are NOT like that.

Some proof would be helpful. Thank you.

[shadowknows69]

71. The only proof I have is from the words of the troops themselves

and what I overhear. I've met several that told me they had violent felonies and got in under the radar. Gang members are being offered prison or the Army. There's the whole factor of many non-citizens joining specifically so they can get citizenship as well. These are the stories that don't make the press.

[hootinholler]

79. The military is seeking warm bodies...

The prior standards have been lowered. That's why MPs are being educated about gang signs, etc.

-Hoot

[still_one]

82. I am not trying to "bash" the troops

but what I am saying is we are engaged in an undeclared war that was based on a lie

When does the individual need to stand up.

I will concede that the low ranking soldier have no say, and that I was wrong to put the burden on their shoulders, but what about the higher ranking officers?

Do they have an obligation, or should they just wait until they retire?

[Cabcere]

38. Not necessarily.

I don't claim to know everyone's reasons for joining the military/fighting in Iraq, but I do know that my friend, who was killed in Iraq last month, went to war so that somebody's father or husband wouldn't have to be put in harm's way. He was neither a gang member nor a white supremacist; he was an honorable person who wanted to serve and protect his country and his countrymen, even though it cost him his life. He was 19 when he died - buried seven months to the day before his twentieth birthday, and I miss him every day. I wish to God he hadn't been killed, but I can sort of understand his reasons for going over there, and I think it's safe to say he is not alone in having such motives. People join the service for different reasons - some for money, some to serve, and some to kill, I'm sure - but that does not mean that they are all thugs or mercenaries. My friend certainly wasn't.

[shadowknows69]

72. Never said all

but army is rife with them.

[Cabcere]

76. Fair enough.

I figured you probably didn't mean that everyone in the military was like that, but it's hard to tell sometimes on the internets and so I just thought I'd throw my $0.02 in. Peace.

[shadowknows69]

81. Understand, I've met literally hundreds of these guys and girls

and had some pretty in depth conversations with many of them. Some of them are the most heroic and honorworthy people I've ever met; some of them are flat out serial killers. I'm torn right in half on this matter too. I've met many troops that KNOW Iraq is the wrong place to be and many are really torn up about what they've had to do there. As many new bloodthirsty troops as I see, I meet 5 more that are getting out because they know we're doing wrong. I never get that sense from troops about Afghanistan, they feel that is a good fight.

[angstlessk]

30. When I click on a controversial topic I always look for the OP response

when I find none I consider it a HIT AND RUN piece. Four question marks and not a reponse to anyone.

[WillyT]

39. Bingo !!!

You nailed it.

:shrug:

[Richard Steele]

46. Bingo. nm

[still_one]

74. I am responding, I just got to it late. There are moral questions of war and individual

and these issues along with the debate about the Iraq war itself are way over due in my view

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. You are also being quite ignoranat of how the UCMJ works

and the fact taht it is we who have that voice the miltiary lacks

Oh and you've heard of the backdoor\economic draft, haven't you?

(And this is the BS I expect to hear from Right Wing Loonies, but hey we are always in for a surprise or two, aren't we?)

[helderheid]

40. I saw a show on HD net about quite a few going to Canada. Anyone else see that?

[DarbyUSMC]

44. When you raise your hand and take an oath to serve.......

unfortunately, that puts you in the cross-hairs. The powers that be decide where you go and how you will be used. Yes, indeed, you could refuse. The consequences of that decision can be severe and have an effect on the rest of your life. On the other hand, if in the course of being in an illegal war, you become despondent about the situation or mentally impaired to the point of not being able to function, you may be shipped somewhere else or get a general discharge, depending on how the military interprets the findings of the military psychiatrists. If they determine you are mentally OK and you still refuse to participate, you will get a bad conduct or even a dishonorable discharge. Is that preferable to participating in a war that you believe is wrong and immoral? It could be, if your future doesn't depend on the circumstances under which you were discharged and also if the discharge wasn't 6/6 and a kick (six months revocation of pay, six months confinement, and an other than honorable discharge.) which involves the brig and a "record".

If things in life were just black and white; good or bad; right or wrong then the decisions people make would be a lot simpler.

[still_one]

95. you are correct, things are not that simple

Obviously, we didn't learn anything from Viet Nam, so I am afriad we will be in Iraq for some time now

I also admit that I came down incorrectly on the regular soldier, when in fact it is this administration, and the American public who enabled this to occur

[Colobo]

45. Our soldiers are, for the most part, noble and necessary

Our actual Commander in Chief is the problem.

[WinkyDink]

47. YOU know it was illegal, and I know it was illegal, and BUSHCO knew it was illegal,

but until this is UNIVERSALLY accepted as truth, especially HERE, I can't fault our soldiers for obeying what are still regarded officially---by the media, by our representatives who refuse to bring impeachment proceedings---as legal orders.

[still_one]

86. You have a point, I shouldn't throw this on the low ranking soldier

can the same be said for those of rank not to say anything when they know this war is wrong?

7 soldiers were killed yesterday, and who knows how many Iraqiis? When will it stop?

[mitchtv]

48. Too much to lose

They are mostly good guys and gals. Who though they were doing the right thing. Who wants be ruined for indubordination?

I do have a gripe though, I just hate to be told that anyone is in Iraq to protect me or us.

[ComerPerro]

50. I am split on this one. Granted, some didn't really have a choice

still, when you sign up in the military, you agree to do WHATEVER you are told, without question. So...

[LibDemAlways]

59. A month or so ago a 20 year old from my town was

kllled in Iraq - the first from this area. The local paper had a big write up in which several of the young man's family members and friends stated that he wanted to "go to Iraq and find those responsible for 9/11." Another teen, who attended the funeral, was quoted as saying that he signed up recently to join the Marines because he "wants to bring freedom to the Iraqi people."

No one either knew or bothered to tell these young people the truth - that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that bringing "freedom" to the Iraqi people is the furthest thing from Bush's warped, warmongering mind.

These kids are sacrificing their lives for a bunch of lies they've been told by recruiters and the media. I know it's difficult sometimes to talk a young person out of making a mistake, but I got no sense from reading the article that anyone, armed with the truth, had even tried.

[sanskritwarrior]

68. What defense?

We are defending our country and obeying legal orders..........Find me one Federal Court or one Act of congress that says we are doing something illegal.......M'kay thanks........

[ScreamingMeemie]

70. Here's what you should do. Go sign up, go over, lay down your

arms and refuse to fight. Show them how it's done.

[still_one]

73. Interesting, I believe the war is illegal and immoral, and you say I should set an example?

I already did that for Viet Nam. One war is enough

[ScreamingMeemie]

80. I'm saying it's easier said than done, still_one. You, as a Vet, should

know that.

Thank you for your service.

It is easy for us to say what they should do, while most of us realize why they can't.

[shadowknows69]

83. I've said for a while we should be assembling at military bases

We need to set up some kind of system for sanctuary for defecting soldiers. Churches might work.

[still_one]

85. I am not a vet MrsGrumpy, I refused to go to Viet Nam, sorry if you had a different impression

I didn't mean to mislead. I did lose friends in that war though

I concede also that my original post should NOT be directed at the lower rank soldier. It should be directed at those of rank who know this war is wrong, and say nothing. A prime example would be Colin Powell.

[ScreamingMeemie]

89. Then we stand together in that.

I have too many of the lower rank of soldier in my family, who served in both Vietnam and the Gulf War, to fault these men and women.

[still_one]

91. I just see history getting repeated again, and hope I am wrong

I definitely realize that my post came down to hard on the regular soldier, so it is probably best I ask the moderator to lock the thread

[NNN0LHI]

92. I just hope some Iraqis don't come over here and kill Americans to get money for a better education

That would not go over too well with me.

Don

[TheBaldyMan]

93. lots of republicans refuse to enlist, Yellow Elephants - every last one of them

It is more important to get the troops out of Iraq than deflect blame from the Bush administration.

[still_one]

94. I definitely agree with getting us out of Iraq

as for blame, bush definitely, but also the American people, because without them, bush could not have done to our country, what he has done

[walldude]

96. The soldiers in Iraq are fighting for two causes

the first is the right to go home. The second is to get their buddies home as well. While I understand your position, not every person has your strength of conviction. Soldiers are not "free men" any more. They enlist, the military breaks down the person they are and "rebuilds" them as soldiers, trained to follow orders. I'm sure there are many in Iraq just happy to pull the trigger and collect a paycheck. However there are just as many if not more who got caught in the middle and are trying their best just to get home alive without "killing Iraqi civillians". Those are the kids coming home and killing themselves because they can't deal with what they have seen or what they have done. The Bush administration has shown that they are willing to throw those soldiers away when they get home. Apparently you are willing to throw them away before they get home.


Oh and BTW you do know that it's not a volunteer military anymore. There is a backdoor draft keeping soldiers from leaving when they are done with the terms of their enlistment. Maybe this father can explain it to you:


I am a hard working middle class man who was in the Army many years ago. I was proud when my son followed in my footsteps and joined to serve his country. My son, who is my only son, has served for two-and-a-half years on two tours in Iraq and just returned from a rotation in Afghanistan for four months. He has just learned that his unit at Fort Stewart is to be deployed in September, preventing him from proceeding with his discharge in August.

My son has been on the front lines in Iraq, won commendations and awards and did so bravely and without question. However, as a father and former Army man, I question the judgment of the Army and my president.

As a citizen, veteran and father, I ask that President Bush allow these men who have unselfishly served their country to leave when they are entitled to and not keep deploying the same men over and over again. To allow some to never see war and force others to repeatedly serve is not only unfair, it is a disgrace, dishonor and a disservice to these young men.

I beg President Bush, as a father, to allow my son and all the others like him to come home when their enlistment is up instead of making them become one of the statistics by sending them over repeatedly until the odds catch up with them.

http://blog.news-record.com/staff/letters/archives/2006/12/president_bush_2.html

[Fenris]

98. Locking.

"Do not post broad-brush smears against US service people. Do not blame the troops for the mistakes of their officers or their Commander-in-Chief. Show the appropriate level of respect to those individuals who have put their own lives on the line to defend this country."