Target is transferring cashiers who avoid pork

[question everything]

StarTribune.com

Target is transferring cashiers who avoid pork
Some Somali Muslims say the retailer is overreacting to customer criticism.

By Chris Serres and Matt McKinney, Star Tribune
3/17/07

Target received a wave of criticism earlier this week after the Star Tribune reported in a front-page article that some Muslim cashiers at Target declined to scan bacon and other pork products. They would call over another cashier to ring up the products, or in some cases, ask customers to do it themselves. Some customers called and wrote Target to complain about the practice; a few called for a general boycott of Target on the Star Tribune's community blog, buzz.mn.

After the story appeared, Target asked Muslim cashiers who refuse to handle pork to wear gloves or transfer to other areas of the stores. In some cases, Muslim cashiers will be given the option of transferring to other stores. "We are confident that this is a reasonable solution for our guests and team members," Target spokeswoman Paula Thornton-Greear said in a statement. It remains unclear whether wages would be affected by any job transfers; cashiers are generally entry-level positions at Target.

The move is an effort by Target to balance the religious rights of its employees with customer demands for prompt service. However, some Somali Muslims in the Twin Cities said that the retailer is overreacting to public pressure and that stores should be able to accommodate Muslim cashiers without disrupting service. "This is being blown way out of proportion," said Abdi Sheikhosman, a professor of Islamic law at the University of Minnesota Law School. "Pork products represent a very small percentage of Target's overall products. ... Accommodations could have been made."

(snip)

Many Muslims believe the pig is an unclean animal and consider it a sin to eat pork. The Qur'an has multiple passages in which Allah instructs believers to avoid eating pig flesh. It is so core to their beliefs that some consider it sinful to sell the meat, because that encourages others to participate in a sinful act. In the Muslim world, there is even a stronger taboo against pork than alcohol, said Owais Bayunus, an imam at the Abu Khudra Mosque in Columbia Heights. Wearing gloves will not solve the issue, he said. "There is a school of thought within the Muslim community that if you sell pork or alcohol to someone, then you are contributing to the propagation of a sinful activity," he said. "Many Muslims do not want to see non-Muslims involved in a sinful product."

(snip)


http://www.startribune.com/535/story/1061103.html

[flashlighter]

1. If your religion forbids you from doing your job, get a new job.

[BayCityProgressive]

3. Fire the idiots

[SemperEadem]

175. they first have to do away with the religious conviction law in various states

[kestrel91316]

4. Thank you. Pretty basic, if you ask me.

[originalpckelly]

8. Yep, I agree. I'm sick of this bullshit.

It's getting fucking old already.

[Clark2008]

22. Wow! Such tolerance. Not.

What is wrong with being accommodating? This isn't like the pharmacist refusing drugs prescribed by a medical doctor - this is a MINOR inconvenience.

Geesch.

I like Target's approach - everybody's happy and TOLERATED.

[flashlighter]

30. this is THE EXACT SAME THING as a pharmacist who won't

sell BC or morning after. Exact..same..thing. There religion says something is evil, so they won't sell it.
Tolerance my ass.

It's against MY religion to deal with stupid people, but my boss still makes me talk to clients.

[BlooInBloo]

37. That's asinine and everyone knows it. People only differ on whether or not they *care*...

(a) Bacon is not a medical item (as much as it emotional may seem as such to me :) )

(b) There are typically MANY cashiers at a Target. There is typically only ONE, or few pharmacists at a drug store.

Ergo, it's just not the same.

People are welcome to maintain the opinion that Muslims should not be cashiers. But to justify, or "justify" that opinion be claiming "it's the same thing" is just a lie.

[flashlighter]

43. No one said that "Muslims should not be cashiers".

We're saying that if your religion forbids you from doing part of your job, you must get a new job!

If I think that working on Sunday is a sin...I can't get a job as a football commentator, now can I?

If you refuse to sell something to a customer because you think it's "sinful" you are doing a bad job.

[SoCalDem]

85. And it's kind of tacky too. Customers may not like being told that they are

being sinful and dirty of eating pork..when it's not against THEIR religion..

[Mike Daniels]

89. Also tacky to ask customers in a "service" line to scan their own items

If a customer wanted to scan their own items they would go to a store that offered that service.

If a McDonalds clerk asked a customer to bag their own "to go" meal because they ordered a sausage biscuit you can bet that employee would be looking for a new job.

[AZBlue]

166. Or to ask customers in another line to wait while their cashier goes over to ring someone else!

If I were stuck in that line because my cashier had to cover for someone else, I'd complain!

[SemperEadem]

176. some states allow you to check out your own groceries--do the whole process

from start to finish without a cashier being involved.... that would solve a lot of problems. They do that in MD at the Giant stores.

[orleans]

207. they have self check out in some stores around here

and i never use it because i figure if we all use the self check-out then there will be some cashiers out of a job.

if you are hired for cashier then you should cashier. if you don't like the crap the store sells, then cashier somewhere where you can handle it.

first thing i thought of was the pharmacy/morning after pills.

[geardaddy]

160. Did the cashier say that the customer was sinful?

I don't recall seeing any sort of exchange like that in the article.

[SoCalDem]

169. exerpts

"It is so core to their beliefs that some consider it sinful to sell the meat, because that encourages others to participate in a sinful act."

and

"There is a school of thought within the Muslim community that if you sell pork or alcohol to someone, then you are contributing to the propagation of a sinful activity," he said. "Many Muslims do not want to see non-Muslims involved in a sinful product."

[geardaddy]

171. I saw that, but

the article still doesn't say that the cashier said anything to the customer about sin.

That's all I'm saying.

[SoCalDem]

174. Target shoppers who read the articles and who have followed the "faux-controversy"

may feel less inclined to shop there is they feel their food choices are being looked down upon.

If someone refuses to even TOUCH something you plan to feed your family, isn't that enough of an insult?

years ago when I checked groceries, I would always cringe at easter time. Our meat department sold whole lambs' heads (apparently it's a Hispanic culinary specialty). Everytime I looked down that conveyor and saw one coming, I would darned near lose my lunch,but I never showed how disgusted i was at the thought of having to touch it.. I just wrapped the icky thing up as fast as I could, and thanked the customer for shopping with us.. then after they left, i got out my spray cleaner and went to work on the conveyor.:)

[question everything]

173. As bad as Evangelicans who do not want to see others go to hell

if they do not believe in Jesus.

We should recognize extreme religious people of all stripes and equally condemn them and make sure that their influence on our daily lives is minimal.

[question everything]

61. Some claim that birth control pills are not a medical item, either

and, I believe, some pharmacies will direct the purchaser to another pharmacist.

This is the same thing. We are a pluralistic society. This is why immigrants come here in the first place. But once immigrants are here they want to change our pluralism to fit their view of the world.

It is worth in Europe, in Britain, where some Muslims join terror groups because they do not like the way women dress in public. This is what happened with the founder of the Islamic Brotherhood - that started religious zealotry in Egypt. He came to this country and was disgusted by the way women behaved in public. Always women, of course..

[robinlynne]

70. That is not ok either. if you dont want to sell birth control pills, you should go work at target.

[Clark2008]

38. No, it's not.

They're still selling you the pork - allowing you to get your pork. They just want someone else to scan it.

Just like, in my state, when I purchase beer, I have to get an over-18 cashier to scan it for me. It's illegal here for anyone under 18 to sell spirits, so I have to wait whilst the 16-year-old goes and gets an older cashier. I'm STILL SOLD THE BEER. They have a method in place to accommodate me without making the juvenile cashier break the law.

It's not like the head pharmacist who won't let any of his employees sell birth control and/or refuses another method (which I know has happened).

Geesch.

[flashlighter]

52. Ok, and underage kid CAN'T sell you beer. This cashier doesn't want to.

He/she is refusing to do part of his job, and where I come from, that's a pink slip.

Just because this fundie thinks what I buy (be it pork, booze, condoms or sugar snacks) is sinful doesn't mean that he can refuse me service and keep his job.

[Clark2008]

59. My point is that it's not any more inconvenient to the customer,

Target has tried to accommodate both it's Muslim cashiers and it's customers.

Ergo, it's not a big deal anymore.

I'm sorry. I just don't find this to be that big of a deal.

I'd scan it myself or wait for a moment while the cashier got someone else. Hell, it's not that big of a deal.

:shrug:

[Extend a Hand]

60. at the grocery store where I shop

the underage cashiers have customers scan their own wine or call another cashier. I have no problem with the grocery store hiring underage cashiers.

I think this is a much better comparison than pharmacists that won't sell BC; in that case the customer *CAN'T* make the purchase. If the stores are able to accommodate underage cashiers, why can't they make the same accommodation for Muslim cashiers.

I worked with a Seventh Day adventist at a call-center once. He refused to work on Saturday but was scheduled almost every Sunday. These kinds of accommodations to keep good employees are perfectly reasonable from a business point of view.

[Clark2008]

63. Thank you.

That was my point, indeed.

I simply can't see what the big ta-do is about all this.

I think what Target did was lovely.

[zanne]

94. I was thinking the same thing.

When you're on the job, there are things you have to do to keep your job. When I worked in retail I had to sell fur coats, even though I'm about as anti-fur as you can get. I think I know now why my employer didn't take my conscience pangs seriously; I was not religious. I should have invented a religion to get me out of doing things I just didn't want to do.

[The Stranger]

136. No, because a cashier doesn't provide drugs you ingest for medical treatment.

They just ring you up.

Huge difference.

[Goblinmonger]

91. They aren't firing them, just transfering

That kind of seems like tolerance to me.

[Beelzebud]

123. If I refuse to do my job, I get fired. Why the double standard for religion?

[fishwax]

140. it's not a double standard, it's a reasonable accommodation

the company apparently thinks that the employees are good workers worth retaining, so they've proposed a solution to meet everyone's interests. That's not a double standard. I've been around all kinds of employees who got accommodations for various reasons--some religious, some medical, some philosophical or psychological, some based on their family situation--if both company and employee can reach such an agreement, as it appears they have here, then what's the problem?

[treestar]

187. Should Jewish people be fired for not working on Jewish Holidays?

These people aren't even asking for the day off.

What if your boss asks you to work on Thanksgiving Day? If you refuse, he can fire you, right?

[question everything]

208. There is a difference if you wish to take a day off

Jewish holidays, like Christmas and Good Friday occur once a year, you know in advance when they would take place and you take the day off as a personal day.

If the store is open on Thanksgiving Day, or on Christmas, then there is a policy of who is working when and, I think, the pay is higher. When you are hired these conditions should be spelled up front, so you know that you will have to work some Weekends and Holidays. I don't think this is a problem, though. There are many who work more than one job and actively seek Weekends and Holidays.

But this is arranging ahead of time to take a day off. Similarly if there is a family emergency. You take the day off. But once you are on the job you are expected to do the job which, in this case, is scanning the purchase.

Should some cashiers refuse to scan fatty food? Adult magazines? Liquor? Products made in sweatshops in China or Indonesia? If you have read more posts you could find all kind of examples - guns, fur, heads of lambs (how gross!)

This is not your job to pass judgment on the purchase of the customers - for whatever reason. But we sometimes are so PC as to tolerate every religious belief, that we are willing to accept such an outrageous behavior just because the reason is a religious belief. If you cannot perform your job while you are on the job then you have no business holding this job. Similar things happened at Minneapolis-St. Paul airport with, again, Somali taxi drivers who refused to take passengers carrying liquor. The airport authority first tried to accommodate them and then just told them to either do their job or go someplace else.

[Xenotime]

131. Agreed.

Tolerance is key

[Richard Steele]

41. Yes. It's hardly rocket science. nm

[robinlynne]

67. exactly.

[Frogger]

78. Nah.

That is way too simple. And would not supply any work for the lawyers.

[question everything]

80. Hey Frogger, Welcome to DU

:toast: :bounce:

[Frogger]

215. Thanks

Glad to be here.

[The Backlash Cometh]

87. I would tend to agree.

In fact, it sounds like Target went out of its way to accommodate its workers. If it wanted to play hardball, it could handle a lawsuit from its employee with a BFOQ: Bono fide Occupation Qualification.

[fishwax]

137. isn't that pretty much what's happening?

:shrug:

[BlueStateModerate]

2. Seems reasonable

If they won't do their job, transfer them to another. If I were the manager, I would probably have less patience than Target has displayed.

[Skittles]

10. it is such f***ing nonsense

they're saying not only will THEY not handle pork, they cannot take SEEING NON-MUSLIMS "participating in sinful acts". Can I have a non-judgemental cashier please? :puke:

[originalpckelly]

13. I understand that some may be cautious and ask us to show tolerance...

but the question is where the tolerance in on their behalf? Why can't these people tolerate our lifestyles in America?

[Clark2008]

27. I don't know - I don't eat pork. It's nasty and I can't digest it.

That said - let them be judgmental - it's not like they were chiding the customer or even making remarks to them - they just didn't want to handle the nasty stuff. I think what Target's doing is tolerant to both the cashiers and the customers.

:shrug:

For the record: I'm Christian. My decision to not eat pork stems from an allergy, not a religious duty.

[Frogger]

79. Allergic to pork???

Man! That is tough! I feel for you, friend.

[cherokeeprogressive]

147. "It's nasty"?

Nasty how? Nasty why?

[fishwax]

141. what's intolerant about having someone else scan an item?

There's no indication they are lecturing anybody, or clucking their tongues or rolling their eyes. Where's the intolerance you're referring to?

Why can't these people tolerate our lifestyles in America?
Our lifestyles in America include "these people," which many assume (though the article doesn't say) are all from somewhere other than America. The article mentions a Somali muslim community in Minneapolis, but that doesn't mean, of itself, that everyone in that community immigrated rather than being born here, or that all the cashiers in question are of that community.

[Colobo]

210. Christian fundies, Muslim fundies... same crap...

[noamnety]

196. "OUR lifestyles in AMERICA"???

You mean cause your lifestyle is MORE american than theirs, because Muslims aren't REALLY Americans?

hmmm.

That whole "othering" thing is just not an attractive attitude.

[Hatalles]

17. No, that was the article's spin/explanation of it.

The original cashier just didn't want to touch it.

[Skittles]

I don't care

if someone cannot perform the duties of their job they need to find another line of work and stop imposing such nonsense on their customers

[Hatalles]

40. That's fine.

I agree that these cashiers (as far as I know, it's only been a couple) should be doing their job, ringing up whatever it is they need to ring up. In fact, there's nothing in Islam that states a person should not touch pork. It's only a dietary restriction and eating it is even permissable if a person is forced into it.

I was only responding to your reading of the article, attributing the writer's claims to the motivation behind the cashier's action.

I also don't understand the problem with someone just subbing for the cashier if he/she doesn't feel comfortable ringing up a product. Cashiers subbing in/out during purchases isn't an uncommon occurrence. IMHO, the 'outrage' over this non-story is just as ridiculous.

[question everything]

62. What will be next? Not scanning fatty items?

Condoms? Non-organic produce? White bread? Items made in China?

You are a cashier and you are expected to scan the items and charge the customer. Period. It is not your role to refuse to scan any item for whatever reason.

[Hatalles]

65. That's a slippery slope.

I already posted that I agree the cashier should have rung up the purchase... but I don't think it's a big deal. I don't see anything wrong w/ just getting another clerk to sub for the transaction. This is a non-story.

[BoneDaddy]

114. Great point

This slippery slope can apply to many things people can pass "judgement" on.

[ecstatic]

218. exactly. I would hate to be treated like that if purchasing condoms

Or birth control... or a pregnancy test... or pork... whatever...

Some people here don't seem to get how a cashier refusing to touch an item (and in the process causing a scene) can be embarassing and insulting to customers. This has nothing to do with religion. The customer is always right and shouldn't be judged or treated like trash. Actions speak a lot louder than words.

[northzax]

164. well, part of the problem

is that I had to wait ten minutes at my local Giant on Sunday to buy a six pack of beer because the cashier was under 18 and needed a supervisor to check my id. If I had to wait ten minutes to buy bacon as well, I would be pissed off. so would the people behind me.

[Extend a Hand]

148. Why make the assumption that they are judging you?

I would just feel sorry for them for being stuck in a religion that is so restrictive...

Yummmm.....Yummmmm....plenty BBQ pork sandwiches for me!!! ;)

[tanyev]

5. How many fundies who completely support a pharmacist's right to

not sell bc or morning after pills will be outraged at this story?

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. Exactly.

I can't believe people actually complained about this.

[cali]

29. You can't?

Long grocery lines drive a lot of people nuts, and when you have a cashier who either asks the customer to ring an item through (and retailers generally look askance at such a practice), or who has to go get someone else to ring the product up, ringing customers up in a smooth and orderly way, is disrupted. Target seems to be handling this well. They're no firing people. I think it's interesting that you can't see the problem.

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. I guess I save my anger for other things.

:shrug: Sorry. I used to work for Kmart and often times had to ask for price checks, someone to scan alcohol and the like. Life is way too short to be bothered enough to not brush it off as life.

[cali]

45. Well, most people don't care to have the line

they're in made longer by a cashier's religious beliefs forbidding him or her to touch a product being sold in that store. And store's need customers. As I said, Target handled this well. Oh, and somehow I rather doubt that you'd be so understanding were it a Christian or Jew instead of a Muslim imposing their religious beliefs on the publlic.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. Having been raised Catholic, I think I would have the same reaction.

Everyone in this situation over reacted. I think perhaps you shouldn't take it upon yourself to know what makes other people tick. Just a suggestion.

[ends_dont_justify]

53. It isn't about what makes others tick

In america you do a job or you don't get paid. Why is it so hard for people to understand this concept and demand their fair share when they don't do their job?

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. I responded to cali saying he/she knew how I would react to

something. For me, it's about everyone in this case overreactin. Why is it so hard for some people to understand that some things are worth getting quite that upset over? We've got soldiers dying, our own fellow Americans not allowed equal rights...I could go on.

[fishwax]

142. "In America you do a job or you don't get paid" ...

or, if the employer feels you're a valuable employee, they might find some way to accommodate you, which is what happened here. What's the big deal with that? And who is demanding "their fair share when they don't do their job?"

[Hatalles]

58. ... about "understanding"

IMHO, it seems to me pretty improbable that a Jew has never objected to ringing up a pork product before... or a Christian opting to get someone else to ring up an alcoholic product. I can't help but feel this non-story about 1 or 2 Muslim clerks at Target in Minneapolis is a 'story' because they happen to be Muslims.

[treestar]

104. Exactly! It is fundie hypocrisy as usual.

[cloudbase]

6. They won't get

much in the way of sympathy from me. Maybe they could drive an airport taxi.

[question everything]

21. Ah, but they already drive an airport taxi... as long as passengers

do not carry bottles of liquor.

At first the airport authority tried to find a compromise, like "marking" the taxis that would not accept passengers with liquor. But at the end they were given an ultimatum: do your job or find a new one.

[williesgirl]

7. Sorry but I agree w/Target. This is BS - you don't apply for and get a job and then

proceed to tell them which parts of it you're willing to do. Find another job where your religious beliefs aren't compromised. As a customer, I'm unwilling to wait in line while my cashier finds another to ring up any of my items.

These cashiers knew when they accepted the job that they'd have to handle every product offered in the store, including pork products. By accepting the job, they implied they would meet all work requirements, then they pull this bullshit.

So, next the Catholic cashier will refuse to scan birth control items? Perhaps the Muslim cashier will jump over to her station and ring those up. What nonsense.

They should do their complete job or leave. recommended

[question everything]

12. Same problem with taxi drivers from the same community

They refused to accept passengers, at the airport, who carry bottles of liquor. Similar outcry and, I think, at the end they were faced a similar alternative: do your job or get another job.

I think that this is why traditionally immigrants started their own stores and served their own community. This way both service providers and customers adhered to the same rules.

[Clark2008]

33. So, do you leave when an under 18 cashier waits to have

someone over 18 come by and ring up your beer, wine or alcohol? Because, in my state, only those over 18 can sell spirits. We have a lot of cashiers working after school who aren't 18 and they have to get another 18-or-older cashier or manager come over and scan the product. Most people don't leave whilst waiting on the older cashier, either. It's no different than what is going on here.

I really don't see what the big deal is.

[Occulus]

116. That is NOT NOT NOT the same thing!!

I saw you make the exact same false anaology upthread, and it does not work.

You are trying to compare a requirement of law, the violation of which carries legal penalties including loss of the ability to sell alcohol, period with upholding the tenets of a chosen religion.

Not the same, at all. In any sense. Your analogy is false.

ed.: sp.

[nonconformist]

168. That's completely different. Law vs Religious/Moral Beliefs

Totally different.

If I'm at the store and the 17 yr old clerk has to get an adult to ring up some beer, that is totally different than if the 35 yr old clerk at the liquor store is morally and religiously opposed to selling beer so they have to get another clerk to ring it up. Completely different, and it passes a moral judgment on the customer - whether they voice it or not. It's the action, and it's not right.

[RamboLiberal]

143. How about if the Catholic cashier refuses to scan meat on Fridays

Or won't sell you that candy bar or dessert on a fast day? Sorry, but I think the Muslims and the Fundies who refuse to service customers based on their religion should find another job.

I grew up in the era when there were butcher shops in the neighborhood and I believe our local butcher was Jewish, and he sold pork chops, bacon, hams, etc to his customers.

Sorry but I don't see accomodating them in this situation. But hey in a few more years cashiers will be a thing of the past - most grocery and Target, Wal-Mart type stores are rapidly going to self-checkout which frosts me. I think I should get a discount if I'm going to do the damn work for them. But that's another story.

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. If they do this they need to transfer the 18 year olds who cannot sell

alcohol at grocery stores (I don't believe our target sells alcohol, but I don't shop there so...). As a young girl I was a cashier at KMart. I couldn't ring up the alcoholic purchases and often had to find another cashier to scan them.

[valerief]

15. But the it's the law for 18-year-olds. It's a personal choice for the Muslims.

They're two different things.

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. People were complaining about having to wait elsewhere in this

thread. I think it is a bit of overreaction on both sides. :)

[valerief]

24. But it was against the law for the 18-year-old to scan liquor. It's a personal

choice for the Muslim to refuse scanning bacon. Two different things.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. The 18 year old shouldn't have been hired for the job in the first place.

Same thing.

[valerief]

28. So the Muslim shouldn't have been hired or the Muslim should have scanned the bacon?

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. Neither should have been hired for the job they both had.

And, I reiterate, this is an entire overreaction on everyone's part.

[valerief]

46. Thanks. Have a god-free day!

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. A little God in my day bothers me not. The presence of God or lack

thereof is not given much thought by me. :hi:

[valerief]

50. Just accept my good wishes, please. I was trying to be nice. nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. I'm being nice too. see the wavey guy?

:)

[Occulus]

117. No, it is NOT the same thing

One is secular law all sellers of alcohol must obey.

One is the tenet of a chosen religion.

One of these things is not like the other.

[geardaddy]

162. Ah but the alcohol laws in Minnesota

are based on religious preferences. We can't buy alcohol on Sundays (except for 3.2 beer which isn't alcohol in my estimation).

[Clark2008]

42. Not really - the point is the inconvenience to the customer, which

is virtually nil.

[treestar]

113. Exactly, and that accomodation was made without a lot of fuss

the store could easily do it then, and in fact they are. It was only the fundie customers who complained.

[Igel]

130. You know they were fundie?

How about people who simply dislike having religion get in their way, whether that religion is Xian, Muslim, or animist?

[treestar]

186. They might have been freepers

What about people who don't like age to get in the way, so they have to get another clerk to buy liquor/tobacco?

Disliking having religion get in your way is too much for society to handle - you'd complain of traffic jams near churches and the facts liquor stores close early on Sundays, too then.

This isn't that big of a deal.

[AZBlue]

165. You're right - they were stupid for hiring her in the first place.

Why hire anyone for a job they legally can't do??? That makes no sense.

[Scout]

193. they post a sign at the entry to the line "No Alcohol Purchases" n/t

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

14. Looks like everyone is over-reacting

The Moslem cashiers are not being forced to eat pork, and could wear gloves or use tongs or even a little shovel. I don't really care what is written in either the Bible of the Qur'an and I don't think we should encourage either Christians or Moslems to continue living in the 10th Century and trying to force the rest of the world around them to avoid what they see as "sinful" activity. The Target customers are really over-reacting, as I don't think this warrants a boycott or the stirring of anti-Moslem sentiment. Sounds like the extremists on both sides are looking for any excuse to entrench themselves.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. You Win!

:applause:

[Clark2008]

48. Good point.

My ex husband is a Muslim and the manager of a pizza restaurant.

He doesn't eat any pork, but he certainly puts tons of it on pizzas yearly and he doesn't get all bent out of shape - unless someone calls him a sand ni***r, which has happened, and then he steps on their dough. :)

[ends_dont_justify]

56. See...

Being someone recently unemployed, it isn't that I'm fanatic about muslim/anti muslim. I'm frustrated that due to EEOC standards that if a person of a different race or culture in a touchy area gets a job interview for a job I want to get, it's harder to turn them down. Then they don't even do their job and it's hard enough to find work in america. My anger isn't at race or belief, it is at people needing to do a job once they're hired. I don't think muslims should be persecuted OR get a free ride for it. What frustrated me is the extremist cynicists who act like no one is allowed to have an opinion outside of stereotypical group A or B or else they're just trolls. "Fanatical disbelief is as illogical as fanatical belief."

[anitar1]

161. Wouldn't it be easier to post a sign at the Muslim's checkstand

explaining to customers that this Muslim does not handle pork products--so customers can go to another checkstand ?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

195. A Moslem doesn't have to handle pork products

He/she can use tongs and hold it at arm's length. That's not handling pork: it's coming in contact with something else that comes in contact with pork. While I can't be sure here, I suspect that the Moslems are possibly upset not over their own handling of the pork (which they can avoid), but over the fact that they are participating in allowing others to eat pork. They are objecting to being intermediaries in the selling of pork to others because they view the eating of pork as a sin. If that's what's really going on here, I think that that's nutty behavior in my opinion where I draw the line, as we live in a society where each can and should decide for themselves what's sinful or not.

[Colobo]

213. It IS nutty behavior. Good post.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[durrrty libby]

20. Religious idiots are a waste of space...all of them

[FuzzyDicePHL]

134. Best post of this whole thread.

eom

[eleny]

23. Makes a person just want to shop online and have the whole shebang delivered

[Crunchy Frog]

26. This is no different from a pharmacist refusing to hand out Plan B.

I'm actually glad to see something like this. Let people see the logical end result of this sort of thing.

Either people who are hired to do a job should do the job and leave their religion out of it, or all workplaces must accomodate all religious objections by employees to doing parts of their jobs.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. As long as the pharmacist is fired. But, too often, they get away

with it.

[William769]

35. Best reply so far.

[Liberal Veteran]

101. I kinda like that last suggestion....

"or all workplaces must accomodate all religious objections by employees to doing parts of their jobs."

I could start a religion that says it is anathema for a person to rigidly follow a schedule and then I could just show up for work when I feel like it.

But you are right....there does have to be a line in sand when it comes to work.

[fishwax]

145. of course, it's up to the employer where they decide to draw that line

What's wrong with where Target has drawn the line? Why should every company have to draw the same line?

[mac56]

108. DING DING DING We have a winner!

:thumbsup:

[fishwax]

146. why all workplaces? Why not just those that are willing to?

[Beaverhausen]

185. There is a big difference. No one is keeping the customer from buying the pork.

If the muslim cashier either gets another cashier to ring it up, or if they ask the customer to ring it up, the customer still gets to go home with the item.

If the pharmacist won't sell Plan B, the customer goes home empty-handed.

See the difference?



Is it really so hard for a customer to swipe their damn bacon over the scanner? Honestly, this is ridiculous!

[Crunchy Frog]

188. I agree that there's a huge difference in terms of the gravity of the consequences.

I guess the point that I was trying to make, is that relatively few Americans are affected by religious pharmacists refusing to give out Plan B, and therefore, for most Americans, the whole thing is kind of an abstraction. Because far more Americans have the experience of purchasing pork products in a large store, this incident has the potential of making the whole issue concrete.

If people know that they may be refused service or be otherwise humiliated any time they go into a store to purchase pork products, alcoholic beverages, cigarettes, slightly racy magazines, or myriads of different pharmaceutical products (picture trying to fill a scrip for antidepressants with a Scientologist pharmacist), they may begin to think twice about the whole principle of allowing employees to not do their jobs due to religious objections.

So while I agree that the stakes are very different in the two situations, I feel that the overall principle is the same. Unlike the Plan B situation though, I think this one might make middle America actually sit up and take notice.

FWIW, I think that anyone who has religious objections to doing their job should be fired. Whether the consequences are inflicting an unwanted pregnancy, or simply humiliating and inconveniencing someone who's trying to buy groceries, it is unacceptable IMHO.

[Beaverhausen]

189. I disagree that the customer is humiliated or inconvenienced

in the case of the muslim and the pork, that is.

I can imagine a cashier scanning my items, and then when he/she sees the pork item, simply explaining that his/her religion precludes him/her handling it, and would I mind scanning it for him/her? The total exchange would take all of 7 seconds. I really fail to see that it's the big deal people are making it into.

[Crunchy Frog]

191. Well, I disagree, but that's what makes for diversity.

:hi:

[Colobo]

214. If a Christian fundie told you

that s/he couldn't scan you, let's say, a pack of condoms because her religion is against condoms, and if you would do that for him/her, would you feel alright about it?

I would not, because I don't go to the store to learn about a cashier's religion. Sorry.

[muntrv]

34. Just like the Christian pharmacist who refuses to dispense birth control pills,

GET A DIFFERENT JOB!!

[MethuenProgressive]

39. You're outraged over this tempest in a teapot? Get real.

Save your outrage for Bush sending 3200 to die in Iraq.

Support our Troops. Impeach your President.

[eleny]

44. Can you see the new signs over the cashier stations?

FULL SERVICE

15 ITEMS OR LESS

SELF SERVICE

and...


and...

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. With the little note...new items added weekly.

:hi:

[question everything]

64. Still waiting for the no condoms

after all, "spilling" one's seeds is forbidden in the bible, too..

[eleny]

71. I debated on making a sign with condoms but opted for the pills instead

The only pic I found with condoms was like e-w-w-w.

[question everything]

77. LOL, imagine this (nt)

[WinkyDink]

57. Did they know Target sold pork products? Because if so, merely working there

is "being complicit in others' sins".
But hey---if TPTB at Target found a solution, good for them.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

126. You make a good point

The taxi drivers that refused service to clients who had alcohol were not selling it to them, merely transporting the people and their "sin" at the same time. One would reasonably think then that working where people are purchasing pork would be a conflict also.

[MGD]

66. If I worked at a place that sold dog meat for human consumption, I would not be able to do it

Therefore, I would find a new job, or, more likely, I would move back to my country of origin where dog wasn't ever on the menu because I feel that god-damned strongly about it. Our constitution guarantees us freedom of religion but it should guarantee us freedom from religion and this is why.

[noamnety]

197. Maybe they are IN their country of origin.

sheesh.

[Az_lefty]

68. If your religion gets in the way of your job, get a different job!

[Crunchy Frog]

190. Or a different religion.

[Oldtimeralso]

69. I wonder...

if any football players are Muslim, maybe that would explain all of the dropped passes!

[robinlynne]

72. for goodness sakes. i dont like guns. I'm not going to work in a gun store.

simple.

[Ninja Jordan]

73. There are a load of Somali immigants who live in Minneapolis

I've been to the airport a couple times. I've never seen so many unique-looking black folks. I could tell they weren't american blacks. Now I know they were probably Somalis. That is interesting.

[SoCalDem]

74. Straw-man argument, folks.

Target is a MAJOR competitor to WALMART.. I smell FISH...not pork on this one.

What a perfect little tempest in a teapot to put Target into a Lose Lose situation.

They come down on the common sense side, and they are labeled "anti-religion".. They make accommodations above and beyond, and a part of the community sees them as "enabling Islam..i.e. terrorism"

Each store just needs a more thorough job description for each job in the store.

cashiers are required to be able to physically "handle" every product they sell.

If anyone has any "issues' with that, they cannot be a cashier..simple.

Each cashier just signs a memo stating that they are aware of this, and they agree..

Easy fix.

if cashiers who are now complaining, do not want to be reassigned, perhaps they could find a different job at an Islamic center.

I seriously doubt that target will set up a "Pork-free register"..

This "issue" is being brought up for a reason..Look underneath it.

[spoony]

81. Sooo

Walmart is sending undercover operative Muslims (or are they just claiming to be Muslims?) to Target in the hopes of slightly damaging them for a few minutes in the public eye...

Of course.

[SoCalDem]

82. Nope.. didn't say that.

Just that the timing of the whole "faux-outrage" smells.

[spoony]

83. It's either an issue or it isn't

If it's going on, then Target has to deal with it. This is one of those rare things that has nothing to do with Wally World.

[SoCalDem]

84. Why is it all of a sudden , an "issue"?

When someone applies for a job as a cahsier, wouldn't one expect to have to handle anything that the store sells?

Why would a muslim think that nothing containing pork would be sold there?

Why was it not an issue when they were hired/promoted?

What if jewish people got squeamish about handling non-kosher merchandise.?

or

An evangelical cashier might not want to ring up a pregnancy test (what if the person might have an abortion if they fould out they were pregnant?)

or

maybe that same evangelical might balk at scanning a book that they considered to be blasphemous.


religion belongs in church/mosque/temple

NOT in commerce.

If muslims must lead such restrictive lives in the business world, they need to work in muslim-related businesses.

[WinkyDink]

170. Yeah---what ABOUT those "Cosmo" mags getting past the Muslim cashiers?!

[Turbineguy]

75. That's kind of weird.

I used to go to Fujairah (UAE) a lot and there was a store that carried pork products (for the many expats who worked there). I had no reason to buy any, but it must have been handled up by the Muslim person who worked at the cash register there and those who stocked the freezers. The packages were clearly marked.

[Hatalles]

76. There's nothing against touching pork in Islam

Only a dietary restriction and it's even okay to eat it if you're forced to. Different people have different interpretations. Contrary to popular belief, all Muslims don't think or practice the same way.

[hogwyld]

86. WOW!, for a group of supposedly tolerant progressives

The intolerance and belittling of some here for other peoples beliefs to save a couple of minutes is mind blowing. I respect their beliefs and yours as well. If you don't want to handle my loaf of bread due to some Jim Jones ruling, no problem. Do you really want to fire people and put them on welfare because you have to have your bacon?? Geezus, sometime I have to do a double take to make sure I'm on the correct site.

[cali]

88. Nope. I decidedly don't want to anyone fired over this

I support Target's solution. And what if it were condoms that the cashier disapproved of and wouldn't ring through, would that still be OK?

[hogwyld]

204. I also think Target's solution is good

As for the condoms, I've never had someone refuse to ring those up. I guess if it came down to it, I would have no problem scanning and bagging the item myself if it would keep someone happy.

[Goblinmonger]

99. Do you respect the beliefs of those

not wanting to sell birth control? Do you respect the beliefs of those crazy bastards that are shown in Jesus Camp who want to turn the US into a theocracy? Or do you just pick and choose who you want to respect?

[hogwyld]

203. Obviously apples and oranges

BC is a health issue. While I don't want the Jesus Camp to turn us into a theocracy, I'll go to my grave defending their right to speak their minds. Will it happen? OF course not, but it is their inalienable right to believe and talk about it.

[KittyWampus]

100. I can make a whole list of potentially offensive products a cashier might not want to scan

due to their personal religious beliefs.

Condoms
Pregancy tests
Magazines concerning topic X
Books concering topic Y
CD's containing material Z
Non-kosher food
Meat

If you make exceptions and accomodations for one person who refuses to handle pork, you must then do the same for anyone claiming any of the above restrictions.

[gollygee]

103. Muslims and Christians get the same amount of religious rights

they each get to practice their religion as they want, but neither gets to force others to abide by their religion. No one should choose a job they can't perform due to their religion. If they can't perform their job due to religion (or whatever else - if they're vegetarians and don't want to sell meat products for instance) then they need to find a job where it isn't an issue. This is so obvious I can't believe it's even open for discussion. The fundamentalist Christian/birth control thing is a bigger deal because missing a birth control pill is a bigger problem than missing bacon. But it's the same basic idea. I don't understand why the rights of Muslims to not sell bacon would be greater than the rights of fundamentalist Christians to not sell birth control. Or condoms. Or R-rated movies. Or books about Paganism. Or whatever the hell else they opposed that week.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

105. There's nothing immoral about belittling *beliefs*.

There are a great many beliefs I have no respect for whatsoever, and think that no-one else should either. In some cases I'm willing to respect the *people* who hold those beliefs even so, in other cases I don't think one should go even that far. Respecting all beliefs is *insane*, and I don't for a minute believe that you do it; I think you're just using it as a convenient rhetorical point without thinking about it.

"How someone acts" is *not* comparable to race, gender, sexual orientation etc; there's nothing intolerant about an employer discriminating against people who don't want to do the job they were hired to do.

Incidentally, these people aren't being "fired and put on welfare", they're being transferred to other similar jobs where they won't have to handle bacon. That strikes me as an eminently reasonable compromise.

[WinkyDink]

172. "If you don't want to handle my loaf of bread due to some Jim Jones ruling, no problem."

Really? You wouldn't stand there with mouth agape and say, "Excuse me?!"

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din!

[Crunchy Frog]

192. Sorry, I can't respond to your post, as you have the word "hog" in your username.

It's a violation of my religious beliefs.

[hogwyld]

202. LOL!

I can respect that :rofl:

[dogday]

90. Would gloves help?

is it just touching it with bare hands or what?

[noonwitch]

92. It is absolutely ridiculous that this is even an issue

I don't see what the problem was with having another salesperson ring it up, or letting the customer scan and bag it. It makes me wonder about the people objecting-do they have lives? Are they looking for problems with muslims? Muslim employees can now sue Target for religious discrimination as they are now transferring employees from one position to another, and Target will get ordered by the court to return to their original policy, plus, Target will then have to pay the muslim employees damages. And, a whole bunch of lawyers will get rich or richer in the process. Great, just what we need.

[cali]

93. No. A lawsuit stands very little chance of success.

Target handled this both with sensitivty and common sense. Let me ask again: If this was someone who refused to ring up condoms for religious reasons, or sell playboy or whatever, would you still be convinced that it wasn't a problem. In principle this is no different than a pharmacist refusing to sell the morning after pill- though it's certainly different in scale.

[KittyWampus]

107. I've waited 5-10 minutes in line, get to the cashier and she/he refuses to scan my X

I now have to wait 10 more minutes for another cashier or manager to come over to scan the "offending" item?

Plus, there's the value judgement coming from the service person scanning my items picking item X and deciding it's blasphemous. In a retail setting, the customer has no reason to put up with that.

Oh, and which cashier is supposed to fill in for that one item?

I've been a cashier and you can't just leave your register and walk over to another. I'd have to finish the customer I was with and lock my register and THEN go over to the offended person who can't touch item X.

And since you've decided Muslims needn't touch and scan pork, what happens when Jews, Fundie Christians, Buddhists start saying they won't touch Shellfood, Condoms, Meat?

It seems the answer is to have an agreement for potential employees to sign acknowledging their job requires them to handle ALL items sold in that store.

[Rosemary2205]

95. It is a sin for muslims to work at Target.

Somali islamic law clearly states it is a sin to have any dealings with someone who buys, sells or consumes pork. Simply working at Target puts them in violation of their own islamic laws - simply acknowledging Target customers or other employees puts them in violation of their own islamic laws.

[Jonathan50]

96. My wife is a regional manager for an international retail chain.

She recently had a male employee tell her that he could not accept orders from a female due to the fact that his fundie Christian church preaches that women should be subordinate to men.

Should my wife:

a) Fire the man?

b) Pass all orders through another male employee?

c) Enter your solution here.

[Rosemary2205]

98. Refusal to do his job is grounds for termination.

He can certainly request a transfer to another region but I don't think an employer has the responsibility to take the initiative and offer it.

[Jonathan50]

109. He isn't refusing to do his job

Due to religious beliefs he just can't take orders from a woman.

How is this different than Muslims refusing to ring up pork products due to religious beliefs?

You might be interested to know that the guy's statement left my wife speechless, a very rare occurrence.

[youthere]

112. How did your wife handle it?

I have never heard of a situation like this...I don't blame her for being shocked.

[Jonathan50]

118. One of the reasons she is in her position with no college education

Is that she is very good at handling people.

She collared him in private the next day and told him that his attitude wasn't going to fly with her. He basically said nothing.

My wife rarely fires anyone, she just starts cutting their hours until they quit and that's what she did to this dude.

I remember one time she fired a guy, the poor fella had crapped his pants and told her about it. She didn't fire him for crapping his pants, she fired him for telling her about it. :)

[youthere]

138. Good for her!

She won a "no-win" situation. She couldn't have fired him outright (religious discrimination) and she couldn't have deferred to him either (would have completely undermined her authority). Obviously she is one smart lady. You better hang on to her. ;)

[question everything]

180. I second that!

another alternative would have been to transfer him to a place where there would be only men giving orders - the janitorial service?

[progressoid]

150. Um, yeah he is refusing to do his job.

His reasoning (which is ludicrous) is irrelevant. Refusing to take orders from a superior sounds like refusing to do ones job.
If employers are expected to comply with the EOE Act, seems to me employees should as well. Accepting a job means accepting the duties of that job.

[Midlodemocrat]

155. Refusing to take orders from your wife, his boss, IS refusing to do his job.

Can his sorry ass. That's what I would do. In a freakin' heartbeat. For insubordination.

[Mushroom]

119. easy stuff

Replace him with a female employee then give her a raise. I'm sure she would be appreciative of the extra money.

[VelmaD]

135. this one is a no brainer

Fire. Him.

[WinkyDink]

177. Fire his arse, and see if he obeys THAT.

[Crunchy Frog]

194. Fire his ass!

Maybe in the future we'll be living in a theocracy, but we're not there yet, and nobody has to tolerate that kind of insubordination from an employee. I can't even imagine the stuff that would come out of my mouth if I were in your wife's position.:mad:

[nuxvomica]

97. I think Target is overreacting a little

It's not clear to me how disruptive it is to customers to wait in line while another cashier rings out a pork buyer but I gotta believe the transfers are very disruptive to the Muslim cashiers. I don't think anyone holding a cashier job at Target has a lot of choices to begin with. Where I work, some entry level people may have to handle pornographic materials. They are given the choice whether to do so or not based on their personal convictions, not necessarily their religion. Since that's only a small part of the average workload, the accommodation is not disruptive. If I worked for Hustler, that would be a different story. I think "reasonable" is a word we need to get more acquainted with in this country.

[treestar]

106. Right, exactly.

Black and white thinking dominates. It is not that they will not do the job, only a small portion of the job.

You can bet that letting a Jewish cashier take the day off for Yom Kippur is not objected to.

Christians get their holy days off without effort.

[mac56]

110. Straw man argument.

Christians and Jews getting their religious holidays are not at all the same thing as getting hired to do a job, then selectively refusing to do parts of it.

You're being disingenuous.

[treestar]

111. If you selectively refuse to show up to work on certain days

it's really a parallel thing, isn't it?

if you work for a place that's open on Christmas, say a hospital, why demand triple time for that day, then?

This is being made too big a deal of. How often can it happen in one day?

If a Jewish cashier can take off on Yom Kippur then a Muslim cashier can get someone else to scan the pork. It takes a few seconds. Less disruptive than having to find someone else for a whole day.

My point was accomodations are made for other religions, why not for this one, and why if accomodations are to be made, must it be only on the terms of the other religions?

this person could refuse to work on Fridays, but there is no indication that they have. Yet I wonder if that wouldn't be respected, because the terms are similar to the accomodations made for other religions.

[jmowreader]

121. You CAN schedule around religious holidays

If your Jewish employees (assuming you don't have so many you'd drop below minimum manning levels by doing this) would like to celebrate Yom Kippur, it's not a big problem. Schedule them all off on Yom Kippur, and schedule your Gentile employees to be off other days. Easy fix.

It's a much easier fix than having a Muslim cashier who won't ring the pork in the customer's order, a Catholic one who won't ring the BC pills or a childfree one who won't ring up baby products.

We could get really crazy about this...what about...

environmentalists who won't ring golf balls
animal rights activists who won't ring fishing tackle
devout followers of Leviticus who won't ring The Advocate or clothing made of cotton-polyester blends
Jehovah's Witnesses who won't ring Bibles
vegans who won't ring gas grills

Question for DU lawyers: is it permissible to put a question like "This store sells items that include, but are not limited to (enter list of products the store sells that could be considered offensive to a group), and you as a cashier will be expected to process transactions containing these items. Do you have any moral objection to selling or handling these items?"on an employment application?

[question everything]

181. There is a difference between refusing to work on certain days

and refusing to do part of a job.

Most places of employment offer days off and you can take them and notify personnel. Yom Kippur, and Christmas, occur once a year and you know ahead of time when they will arrive. Not many employers give Good Friday off, so some individuals take this as a personal day.

And if an employee wants to take off Fridays, this, again, can be arranged with personnel during hiring, as long as it is clear.

But all of a sudden refusing to scan certain items - and others gave examples of racy magazines, fatty food - is not performing one's job.

Yes, just like the pharmacies who refuse to fill prescriptions, which is their job.

[treestar]

102. I don't think it would be such a burden to scan my own pork

They're right, they are overreacting.

Everything has to be so black and white to the right wing. You know darn well the customers who complained were right wingers making a big deal out of it nothing, just as an excuse for a chance to prove how crazy those Muslims are. When all they had to do was scan the damn stuff for the cashier.

They'd expect that much respect for their own religious values.

[fujiyama]

183. This isn't just about pork products

As several have mentioned, there are many things out there which offend certain religious groups...

We all know of the pharmacist refusing to sell birth control... Can Hindus refuse to scan beef items? What about fundies refusing to sell racy magazines? What if you you support gun control? Can you refuse to sell guns and/or gun magazines?

People know what their job entails, and if they cannot perform the duties that are assigned, usually those are grounds for termination.

Now, Target was being very cooperative in transferring them. Hopefully they can perform their duties better in their new department without their religious values interfering with their service to the customers.

[havocmom]

115. Good for Target for trying to accommodate all sides, but...

What happens when an employee refuses to interact with persons of the opposite sex based upon religious convictions?

Seriously, I can see it happening. Back in college, WAY before any of the religious leaders now in power flexed muscle (or most even cut teeth), we had some chaps in classes who came in EVERY DAY full of hate and venom that there were women in classes with them. They ranted, railed, disrupted lectures. They interfered with MY education, which, of course, was precisely what they intended.

One guy in an anthropology class almost required medical care because there were women in the room during the showing of a film about a tribe in the Amazon basin. Loin cloths and/or curly gourds being considered proper attire for the tribe just made the man go full scale ballistic. People came in from other classrooms, fearing some horrible crime or accident had occurred.

So, what happens when he, his sons, or grandsons start refusing to interact, in the course of normal job requirements, with me or my daughter or you or your daughter when we are un-escorted because it offends their bigotry, err religious beliefs?

Slippery slope and tough route this tolerance/freedom thing.

I CHOOSE not to lie, cheat, abuse. Have had to give up a couple good jobs because of my preference. But doing what suits one is a better plan.

edited for clarity

[Jonathan50]

132. If you look upthread a bit

You'll see that I already posted about a man that wouldn't take directions from a woman due to his religious beliefs.

[havocmom]

133. Some sects go beyond not taking directions/orders from a woman

Some do not allow that ANY communication between them is proper without the female being in the company of a mail family member, and THEN communication generally goes between the males.

There are populations where MEDICINE is practiced by such means, or via the use of dolls for the females to point to to show, rather than tell, where it hurts.

What happens when adherents of such beliefs here start demanding employers start accommodating their practices on the job? When they start interfering with commerce due to refusal to even speak to unaccompanied females, do they have grounds to expect their personal restrictions to be accommodated?

Slippery slope.

[FyurFly]

139. Damn good point! n/t

[KansDem]

120. Who the hell goes to Target for food, anyway?

I go to Target for cheap T-shirts, board games, and new waste baskets, not to purchase groceries. I go to a food store for that!

[depakid]

205. That's what I was wondering, too

Since when did Target sell pork?

[fishwax]

211. SuperTargets have a full grocery in addition to the usual target fare

similar concept to the wal-mart supercenter ...

[question everything]

209. Some Target stores - in the Twin Cities areas, at least -

do have a supermarket section where the prices are cheaper compared to regular supermarket.

And, yes, it took a while for the cashiers who were used to scan T-shirts and shaving cream to weigh bananas and to enter the prices, too.

[lies and propaganda]

122. good lord, dont eat it if you dont want

But you would think that even touching it is too much, they shouldnt even be in teh same room with it.


absolutely asinine.

[Hubert Flottz]

124. Bush is porking the world!

He's been at it since 2000!

[dysfunctional press]

125. how can these people accept paychecks from a company that sells pork in the first place...?

aren't they then profitting from a sinful act?

religious hypocrites piss me off :grr:

[jollyreaper2112]

127. ugh

Fuck 'em. Nobody says they have to eat pork or have a pet pig. If their religion says they can't perform the job, they can go work elsewhere. Same goes for Christian pharmacists who won't dispense medication.

If a Muslim were to open a convenience store and refuse to stock pork, that's fine. He owns the business, he can suffer the consequences. If people are willing to deal with the lack of pork, more money for him. However, if it's a convenience store, it would likely have beer. If he stocks alcohol but not pork, he's a hypocrite. If he stocks neither, I don't think he'll be in business for long. Either way, PEOPLE get to decide, the decision is not made for them. And that's how this society is supposed to work.

Same goes for christian businessmen who want to follow the blue laws. If they want to, fine. But people who don't give a crap about their stupid religion should be free to do as they please. Making ALL other business shutdown for some superstitious reason is unamerican.

[Yavin4]

128. If I'm Working An IT HelpDesk, and I Convert to being Amish.

Do I get to keep my job? Even though my religion forbids electricity?

Where Do You Draw A Line with Tolerance? There are literally thousands of religions out there. Scientologists hate psych medicine for example. Do we have to accomodate every religion? Where does one draw the line?

If my religion said that it's a sin to be clothed, does that mean that I can walk around naked?

[ItNerd4life]

153. Walking around naked is only allowed

if your good looking. :)

Actually, I'm in IT and I installed a new computer system for an Amish company. There are different types of Amish, some allow modern conveniences if it's for business purposes. Just make sure if you have problems with their computer system you don't accidentally swear!

[Yavin4]

156. Those Amish Are Cheating

Come on now. Either you're going to use modern conveniences or not. You can't have it both ways.

[question everything]

182. You know, this reminds me of the Muslim woman

in Florida, I think, who wanted a driver's license but would not remove her veil for taking her photo.

I don't know how it ended. This again, is putting religion tolerance in a warped world. Driver's license and a photo are for identifying the driver. And putting a veil does not identify the person.

As someone asks: when these people watch American made TV in their countries, do they not realize where they are moving?

[noamnety]

198. Do people on DU even realize that some Muslims are Americans?

I'm appalled at all the insinuations that they should move back to "their" country.

I didn't realize some DUers thought of the US as a "Christian" nation, and all others are guests here. :(

[question everything]

200. The American Muslims are not part of this, in general

Certainly in Minneapolis, these are people from Somalia who came to this country as refugees, I think.

Most American Muslims are trying to make a decent life for themselves and for their families.

It is more so in Europe, where Muslims did immigrate to France, to Holland and to Britain and then tried to change the rules. The founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian, came to this country in the 50s, did not like the way women were portrayed and went back to push for Muslim theocracy in Egypt and in other countries in the Middle East.

No, this is not "Christian" nation, no matter how much the freepers like it to be. This is a pluralistic society and we should guard against caving to demand of any group of zealots - of any stripes.

[noamnety]

201. given your last line ...

Why is anyone fired up here about the overwhelming burden of having to scan their own pork, when the christians have got those blue laws in place that prevent me from buying alcohol before noon?

I think that's partly why I'm seeing this as islamophobia.

We have christian laws that PREVENT us from buying things at certain times, and then we have Muslims whose sole offense is saying "sir, could you pass this over the scanner for me?" and damned if I can see why the outrage is directed at the second group instead of the first.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. Seems like nobody was having a problem...

until a bunch of islamophobes heard about it and started whining.

[geardaddy]

163. Hot dog!

We have a wiener. I mean winner.

;)

[Rex]

144. That is pretty radical for a corporation. I would just fire them.

Guess I'm back to shopping at Target.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

149. I Say They're Lucky Target's Gracious Enough To Transfer Them Instead Of Fire Them.

This has nothing to do with religious tolerance. It has all to do with an equation of can fully do the job required or can't. If you can't, even if via won't, then it is reasonable to either not be hired in the first place or fired thereafter. I'm glad target's being gracious though rather than just firing them outright, but I wouldn't think it extreme had they done the latter.

All of us in our jobs are expected to be able to perform the job requirements. It has nothing to do with religion. If someone, for whatever reasons, can't or won't perform some of those duties, then someone who can should get the position instead. That's just common sense.

[951-Riverside]

151. Target should have fired their fundie asses!

I can't believe how scared we have become of muslim fundies.

[Rex]

152. Although I agree with you, I am impressed by Targets 'compassion'

towards an unpopular religion in America. Says something about the company IMO.

[951-Riverside]

158. Target is really showing its 'cowardice'

At any other store if someone can not perform their job they will be fired but noooo Target is afraid of making these Muslim fundies feel bad. I wonder if they will transfer KKK/neo-nazi employees if they refuse to serve non-whites? (HA! not likely)

[ItNerd4life]

154. What if my religion doesn't allow me to serve Republicans?

I bet many people here would support that! ;-)

[Yavin4]

157. A Standard Question on All Job Applications Ask If There Are Duties

or tasks that you cannot perform either because of injury or religious beliefs. If they didn't answer that question truthfully, then it's grounds for dismissal.

[mac56]

159. What if I work at Wal-Mart, and don't want to ring up guns or ammo?

I get assigned to the sporting goods dept. one day, and don't feel I should have to ring up guns or ammunition.

How long do you spoze I'd last?

[AZBlue]

167. I'd rather have seen them fired, but can understand Target's reluctance to get involved with a

stupid lawsuit (that would inevitably follow). At least Target's not tolerating their stupidity anymore - I do like that.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

178. They can't be cashiers

The way I understand it, gloves don't matter. There's no prohibition against touching pork or alcohol, just against eating it or selling it.

So if another cashier walks over and scans the bacon, or the customer does it, the Islamic cashier can't even ring up the sale, as that is selling a forbidden consumable to an infidel who might consume it. Just completing the sale is contributing to the customer's sin.

[WinkyDink]

179. I see a different issue: Cashiers of all and any stripe are supposed to act

as if they ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT your purchases.
It's called a tacit agreement that the customer is NOT to be JUDGED.

[fujiyama]

184. Target was more cooperative and compassionate than needed

At first, I thought, OK so what...The customer having to ring up a pork item is no big deal. Same as the pharmacist refusing birth control....That pharmacist or cashier should just find another employee that can do so.

But I immediately realized the flaw in trying to accommodate certain refusals in completing the assigned tasks.

This isn't just about pork or birth control. This is about any item that can potentially be seen as sinful or offensive to the cashier. The cashier has no right to judge the customer.

I can think of several things that can offend certain groups. What about beef for Hindus? What about racy magazines? Alcohol and cigerrette purchases? Guns and ammo? Lingerie? Condoms? Vaseline (OK I just had to throw that in there)?.

It just doesn't end.

If duties in your job offend you, it's best to find a new one. After all, in this economy it's not like there aren't people out there that don't want it.

[Madspirit]

199. ...like deja vu all over again.

Haven't I seen this somewhere before? <g>

No, they shouldn't accommodate these folks. If they can't do the job they are hired to do, they should find a job where they can. Keep your frakking religion out of your job. If you cannot, find a job where it won't interfere.

Maybe I should get a job there and say it goes against my basic principles to sell....
NOT. If I can't do a job, I don't take the job.
Lee

[BushOut06]

206. I cannot believe some of the comments I'm seeing in this thread

This is not the equivalent of those idiot fundie pharmacists who refuse to dispense birth control. As has been pointed out so many times, one is a fundamental health issue. It's comparing apples and oranges.

There is ample court precedent for businesses having to accomodate their employees' religious beliefs. I grew up in a fundie household, where women were forbidden to cut their hair, or wear pants. There were cases where employers would try to require certain things that went against their beliefs, and in almost every case that I was aware of, the employer eventually gave in. As for religious holidays, businesses are required to allow religious holidays - they don't have to be paid holidays, but they have to allow people to take them off.

You would think that on a progressive board like DU, and especially given the current anti-Muslim sentiment sweeping the country, that we would be a little bit more sympathetic towards their cause. We certainly don't need to get caught up in this whole xenophobic crap.

[Colobo]

212. All fundies are the same to me, let them be Christian or Muslim or whatever

I don't go to a store to be judged for what I buy. If the cashier refuses to do his/her job because of his/her religious beliefs, s/he needs to get a new job.

[gollygee]

216. It isn't as serious, but it is the same idea

obviously not wanting to scan bacon isn't as bad as keeping a rape victim from getting the morning after pill, so the consequences shouldn't be as stiff. Also, cashiers aren't licensed, so the government doesn't have the same authority.

However, refusing to sell products at a store where you are working based on your religious beliefs is wrong. There are lots of jobs at Target that don't involve the touching of pork. If someone is going to pick and choose what products he or she will scan, he or she shouldn't be in a position where the scanning of products is part of the job description. This is so blindingly obvious I don't understand how it can be seen as xenophobia. I don't care *why* someone refuses to do his or her job. Whether they are opposed to alcohol and won't sell beer, or nudity and won't sell certain movies, or whatever. It doesn't matter why or specifically what they refuse to touch, just that they shouldn't have a job they are unable to perform.

[heatstreak]

217. kick