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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:23 AM
Original message
Important message from the founder of Greenpeace.
Edited on Mon Mar-19-07 01:26 AM by Clarkie1
In the early 1970s when I helped found Greenpeace, I believed that nuclear energy was synonymous with nuclear holocaust, as did most of my compatriots. That's the conviction that inspired Greenpeace's first voyage up the spectacular rocky northwest coast to protest the testing of U.S. hydrogen bombs in Alaska's Aleutian Islands.

More than 30 years on, my views have changed, and the rest of the environmental movement needs to update its views, too, because nuclear energy may just be an energy source that can help save our planet from another potential disaster: the serious negative impacts of climate change.

Look at it this way: More than 600 coal-fired electric plants in the United States produce 36 percent of U.S. emissions -- or nearly 10 percent of global emissions -- of carbon dioxide, the primary greenhouse gas responsible for climate change. Nuclear energy is the only large-scale, cost-effective energy source that can reduce these emissions while continuing to satisfy a growing demand for power. And these days it can do so safely.

Although I don't want to underestimate the very real dangers of nuclear technology in the hands of rogue states, we cannot simply ban every technology that is dangerous. That was the all-or-nothing mentality at the height of the Cold War, when anything nuclear seemed to spell doom for humanity and the environment. In 1979, Jane Fonda and Jack Lemmon produced a frisson of fear with their starring roles in ``The China Syndrome,'' a fictional evocation of nuclear disaster in which a reactor meltdown threatens a city's survival. Less than two weeks after the blockbuster film opened, a reactor-core meltdown at Pennsylvania's Three Mile Island nuclear power plant sent shivers of very real anguish throughout the country.

What nobody noticed at the time, though, was that Three Mile Island was in one sense a success story: The concrete containment structure did what it was designed to do -- prevent large amounts of radiation from escaping into the environment. And although the reactor itself was crippled, there was no injury among nuclear workers or nearby residents. Three Mile Island was the only serious accident in the history of nuclear energy generation in the United States, but it was enough to scare us away from further developing the technology: There hasn't been a nuclear plant ordered up since then.

Today, 103 nuclear reactors are quietly delivering just 20 percent of America's electricity. Eighty percent of people living within 10 miles of these plants approve of them (that's not including nuclear workers). Although I don't live near a nuclear plant, I am now squarely in their camp. I have come to realize that nuclear energy -- along with a stronger focus on renewables, like wind, geothermal and hydroelectric power -- is essential to providing a sustainable supply of electricity.

And I am not alone among seasoned environmental activists in changing my mind on this subject. The pioneering British atmospheric scientist James Lovelock now believes nuclear energy is the only way to avoid catastrophic climate change. Stewart Brand, founder of the Whole Earth Catalog, says the environmental movement must embrace nuclear energy to wean ourselves from fossil fuels. On occasion, the holders of such opinions have been met with excommunication from the anti-nuclear priesthood: The late British Bishop Hugh Montefiore, founder and director of Friends of the Earth, was forced to resign from the group's board after he wrote a pro-nuclear article in a church newsletter.

There are signs of a new willingness to listen, though, even among the staunchest anti-nuclear campaigners. When I spoke recently to a packed house on the issue of a sustainable energy future, I argued that the only way to reduce fossil-fuel emissions from electrical production is through an aggressive program of renewable-energy sources plus nuclear. A Greenpeace spokesman was first at the mike for the question period, and I expected a tongue-lashing. Instead, he began by saying he agreed with much of what I said -- not the nuclear bit, of course, but there was a clear feeling that all options must be explored.

Here's why: Wind and solar power have their place, but because they are intermittent and unpredictable they simply can't replace large primary plants such as coal, nuclear and hydroelectric. Natural gas, a fossil fuel, is too expensive already, and its price is too volatile to risk building large-scale plants.

California currently has a clear choice when it comes to increasing its base electricity supply. It can continue to build natural gas plants that will rely heavily on costly, imported fuel, much of it from unstable, potentially hostile regions, or it can promote nuclear and renewables, particularly hydroelectric, biomass, geothermal and ground-source heat pumps, all of which can contribute to the power supply without emitting CO2.

Fresno-area proposal
One approach to CO2 emissions reduction is now being promoted by the Fresno Nuclear Energy Group. They are proposing twin 1,600-megawatt reactors, built in Fresno County away from any earthquake risk, and using treated wastewater for cooling. This is a feasible and environmentally supportable proposal that can help California meet its objectives for greenhouse gas emissions.

That's not to say that there aren't real problems -- as well as various myths -- associated with nuclear energy. Each concern deserves careful consideration:

• Nuclear energy is expensive. It is in fact one of the least expensive energy sources. In 2004, the average cost of producing nuclear energy in the United States was less than 2 cents a kilowatt-hour, comparable with coal and hydroelectric. Advances in technology will bring the cost down further in the future.

• Nuclear plants are not safe. The 1986 accident at Chernobyl was a disaster, but it was an accident waiting to happen. This early model of Soviet reactor had no containment vessel, was an inherently bad design and its operators literally blew it up. According to the multi-agency United Nations Chernobyl Forum, 56 deaths can be directly attributed to the accident, most of those from radiation or burns suffered while fighting the fire. But no one has died of a radiation-related accident in the history of the U.S. civilian nuclear-reactor program.

• Nuclear waste will be dangerous for thousands of years. Within 40 years, used fuel has less than one-thousandth of the radioactivity it had when it was removed from the reactor. And it is incorrect to call it waste, because 95 percent of the potential energy is still contained in the used fuel after the first cycle. Now that the United States has removed the ban on recycling used fuel, it will be possible to use that energy and to greatly reduce the amount of waste that needs treatment and disposal. Japan, France, Britain and Russia are all now in the nuclear-fuel-recycling business. The United States will not be far behind.

• Nuclear reactors are vulnerable to terrorist attack. The six-foot-thick reinforced concrete containment vessel protects the contents from the outside as well as the inside. And even if a jumbo jet did crash into a reactor and breach the containment, the reactor would not explode.

• Nuclear fuel can be diverted to make nuclear weapons. This is the most serious issue associated with nuclear energy and the most difficult to address, as the current example of Iran shows. But just because nuclear technology can be put to evil purposes is not sufficient reason to ban its use.

The only practical approach to the issue of nuclear-weapons proliferation is to put it higher on the international agenda and to use diplomacy and, where necessary, force to prevent countries or terrorists from using nuclear materials for destructive ends. And new technologies such as the reprocessing system that has been introduced in Japan (in which the plutonium is never separated from the uranium) can make it much more difficult for terrorists or rogue states to use civilian materials to manufacture weapons.

Coal-fired plants
The 600-plus coal-fired plants emit nearly 2 billion tons of CO2 annually -- the equivalent of the exhaust from about 300 million automobiles. In addition, the Clean Air Council reports that coal plants are responsible for 64 percent of sulfur-dioxide emissions, 26 percent of nitrous oxides and 33 percent of mercury emissions. These pollutants are eroding the health of our environment, producing acid rain, smog, respiratory illness and mercury contamination.

Meanwhile, the 103 nuclear plants operating in the United States effectively avoid the release of 700 million tons of CO2 emissions annually -- the equivalent of the exhaust from more than 100 million automobiles. Imagine if the ratio of coal to nuclear were reversed so that only 20 percent of our electricity was generated from coal and 60 percent from nuclear. This would go a long way toward cleaning the air and reducing greenhouse-gas emissions. Every responsible environmentalist should support a move in that direction.

PATRICK MOORE, co-founder of Greenpeace, is chairman and chief scientist of Greenspirit Strategies in Vancouver, British Columbia.

http://www.greenspirit.com/logbook.cfm?msid=150
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Patrick Moore is a sell-out corporate shill.
I'm not one to get worked up on the nuclear power issue either way (I'm moderately against it, but pay much more attention to other issues I think are more pressing) but I'd never in a million years cite him as a source for an argument I wanted to lend credibility to.
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southerncrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Agree, sounds like someone has finally met Pat Moore's price.
Snaring the Founder of Greenpeace over to your side is quite a coup. Lends credibility to the nuclear- is-clean argument.

I remember the Rethugs pushing for more nuclear reactors recently, although I can't recall which ones.

I am still quite suspicious of the "waste disposal" problem. Will have to hear more from a variety of credible sources b/4 I'm sold.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well, a (disputed) co-founder
Most of the known co-founders say he was an early joiner but not a co-founder.
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southerncrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Even more reason to doubt his "change of heart" on nuclear.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. so you still haven't the courage to read dr caldicott before you
pump out another level of propaganda?

pity


for others who do have it, and really care enough about this world:

http://www.helencaldicott.com/


peace
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Lovelock has more credibility. Read up on the Gaia hypothesis...he wrote it.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. know both very well. i repeat.... eom
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well then, you should read Lovelock more carefully.
Apparently you didn't get the message.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. i have. yet - surprise! not - you still have not read caldicott. eom
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Why do you keep avoiding the issue? Do you agree or disagree with Lovelock? nt
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ends_dont_justify Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. they asked first :) N/T
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
9. The Union of Concerned Scientists disagrees.
Not sure what made that guy decide to be a whore for GE, but:

From http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/nuclear-power-and-climate.html

In this context, the Union of Concerned Scientists contends that:

1. Prudence dictates that we develop as many options to reduce global warming emissions as possible, and begin by deploying those that achieve the largest reductions most quickly and with the lowest costs and risk. Nuclear power today does not meet these criteria.

2. Nuclear power is not the silver bullet for "solving" the global warming problem. Many other technologies will be needed to address global warming even if a major expansion of nuclear power were to occur.

3. A major expansion of nuclear power in the United States is not feasible in the near term. Even under an ambitious deployment scenario, new plants could not make a substantial contribution to reducing U.S. global warming emissions for at least two decades.

4. Until long-standing problems regarding the security of nuclear plants—from accidents and acts of terrorism—are fixed, the potential of nuclear power to play a significant role in addressing global warming will be held hostage to the industry's worst performers.

5. An expansion of nuclear power under effective regulations and an appropriate level of oversight should be considered as a longer-term option if other climate-neutral means for producing electricity prove inadequate. Nuclear energy research and development (R&D) should therefore continue, with a focus on enhancing safety, security, and waste disposal.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. They are wrong. France gets 85% of it's power from nuclear energy
safely and efficiently with no greenhouse emissions. So can we.

Their opposition is political, not scientific.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. it is interesting that some of the leaders of the environmental movement -- . . .
Lovelock, Stewart Brand, and now this guy -- are now all of a sudden becoming nuclear power advocates . . . personally, I'm not sure what to make of it . . . I've always respected their work, but I've also always opposed nuclear power as too dangerous, especially when so many other alternatives have yet to be fully explored and developed . . .

have all of these guys been paid off by GE? . . . or is the situation SO bad that they honestly feel there's no other way to save the planet? . . .
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. There are alternatives, but the alternatives aren't enought to stop global warming.
Even if we maximize them starting today, it won't be enough. The only solution we have at the present to time really address greenhouse emissions in a meaningful way to prevent potential global catastrophe is nuclear energy.

France gets 85% of it's energy from nuclear power, and many other countries are expanding their use of safe nuclear power. As the largest greenhouse gas emmiter the U.S. should be doing everything it can, which includes nuclear power.

Wind, solar, etc., just won't be enough in the little time we have left to make a meaningful difference in the emissions.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Little time we have left?
And it would take 15 years to bring a *safe* nuclear plant on line. Safe being a relative term; nuke wastes last thousands of years.

This "Nuclear is gonna save us" canard is terrible reasoning. We can limit emmissions now, but what that means is cutting back on production. We could cut back on production tomorrow, but it would mean a change in lifestyle, and that ain't gonna happen, is it?

Efficiency and conservation are of paramount importance but that's not what the OP is about, is it? No. It is more, more, more nukes. And every ecologist with dirt knows that more of the same ain't gonna cut it.

So keep your "Nukes are gonna save us" BS where it belongs, please.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Exactly
Solar and wind don't have the capicity to replace fossil fuels right now.

Nuclear power produces lots of clean energy with no co2 emissions and is economically competetive with fossil fuels on a large scale.

Nuclear isn't perfect, but is the lesser of the two evils when compared to its competitor coal.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. I notice he glosses over the nuclear waste issue
Not that I think it's an intractable problem, just that there's never been a serious attempt at solving it.

There needs to be a serious balance between the NIMBY alarmists and the people who think it's just another waste disposal issue.

This is an engineering issue, not a "reinvent the wheel" issue.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. The "Crazy Aunt in the Basement"...as Ross Perot used to say...
Is the nuclear waste problem...and it is a big one...

I am really torn on the use of nuclear energy...I don't think it should be abandoned, but solutions to some of the big problems associated with it need to be solved before any dramatic increase in its use is approved...
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Canadiana Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. To be honnest
I get the picture that most people who oppose nuclear energy really have no idea of the science behind it or the history of it. Most people don't even know the very basics of nuclear power.

I don't understand what people's beef with nuclear is - of COURSE there are some problems with it but France (as mentioned in an above post ) currently gets over 75% of its electrical energy from nuclear, why can't we do the same? It's damn clean energy. China is building 1 coal plant a week! This is terrible.

And to adress the waste issue - scientists will have to think of ways to reduce and/or safely dispose of it. It can be done. FYI a large nuclear plant creats about 3 cubic meters of solid waste a year.

To sum up: nuclear and alternative energies such as hydro, solar, and wind all need to lessen our dependence on oil.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well
Edited on Mon Mar-19-07 08:31 PM by MonkeyFunk
I understand it as well as an average layman can understand such things, and I think there are still problems, both technological and economic.

The waste issue *IS* an issue to be concerned about, and I haven't yet seen any practical proposals for how to deal with it.

As for safety... it's a concern. Not that the likelihood of an incident is that great, but the potential for a large-scale disaster exists with nuclear that doesn't exist with other technologies.

Nuclear should be an absolute last resort. We've barely begun to tap and exploit other, safer, renewable resources. Why? There's not much money in it. If I can heat my own water through solar, nobody gets paid (beyond whoever sells me the equipment: once). Nuclear power maintains the current structure where large, private utilities get to charge me every month for the rest of my life.

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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. You are always going to be charged every month for power
the only difference is the source of it.

Also the main large scale disaster is resulting from fossil fuels, not nuclear power.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. yes
for some power. But I think if we had made a serious commitment in the 70s to renewable energy research and development, things could be very different today. We could, individually, provide for SOME of our energy needs.

For the more large-scale needs, there might well be options that are much cheaper and safer than nuclear. We simply haven't invested the resources to develop them, because they're not as economically interesting to the large energy companies.
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ends_dont_justify Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. Nuclear energy is also converted by heat. Nuclear waste is a heat biproduct
I certainly see where, if nuclear plants were used all across the world, where intensely heating the planet could share consequences to destroying it.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
25. please, all, before accepting the pro-nuke propaganda, read:
NUCLEAR POWER IS NOT THE ANSWER
by Dr Helen Caldicott
http://www.helencaldicott.com/books.htm#newbook

and this is her website:
http://www.helencaldicott.com/

and to you, OP, i tried, again. i wish you courage.

no more from me on this now.
g'night


peace all
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