Will Israel ever be progressive again? Will it ever be worthy of progressive support again?

[Ken Burch]

(I'm starting this thread here because it isn't tied to an article and thus wouldn't fit I/P guidelines. Hopefully, since it isn't a bigoted thread premise, it will be left alone)

The original Zionist movement had progressive and humanist roots. "A light unto the nations" was the promise.

All that seems to be gone now.

The choice in the next election seems likely to be between the right-wing Kadima party and the even more right-wing Likud/Yisrael Beitenyu alliance. Neither of these has the slightest interest in any form of social justice or the rights of working people. Both, instead, are committed to militarism for militarism's sake.

There seems no likelihood that progressive or humane values will ever resurface as a majority sentiment in this country. There are a brave minority there who defend humane viewpoints, but they appear to be fighting a permanently losing value against the encroaching yuppie/zealot/strutting military mach consensus.

Given that, and given that the state seems, at present, to be doing Jews far more harm than good, what reasons are there for progressives to continue to support it?

Might there not be BETTER ways to fight antisemitism?

Is a 19th-century right-wing nationalist project really the way to serve that objective anymore?

I'd like to hear a case for why people who believe in peace, justice and hope should not consider Israel a dead zone.

[Ken Burch]

1. I don't want the Jewish people to be forced out of the place.

But there needs to be a radical change, and that change will probably have to involve converting to a multicultural democracy. This would not, in and of itself, be untenable.
It's hard to see how there's any reason for anybody who isn't in this for nationalism for nationalism's sake to defend the status quo.

It doesn't seem like a country where people with the values of Martin Buber would be welcome anymore. Or the values of Albert Einstein.

[cali]

3. As far as the status quo goes

I am strongly opposed to the Occupation, but I see no reason why Israel shouldn't remain a culturally Jewish country, as long as minority rights are protected. They are protected de jure, but have a long way to go de facto. I do not believe in a one state solution to the I/P mess- at least for the near future. You can't force that solution on two people. It would lead to bloodshed that makes the current mess look like a tea party.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. That's the basic question Cali -

how do you have a Democracy based on one religion - or even just the culture surrounding that religion. At some point, Jews may not be the majority. How does a Democracy prevent that from happening? Or how does a Democracy respond once it happens and the majority no longer wants to be a Jewish state?

[cali]

10. As I understand it, there's a Jewish culture

that is strongly secular- not merely "surrounding" a religion. And should the day come that Jews are a minority in Israel, than certainly the majority will change the essence of the nation- but that's quite some years in the future. And let's face it, there are many, many countries that are far more religiously rooted than Israel.

[MonkeyFunk]

11. oh, I know...

but I'm talking about a constitutional designation as a "Jewish State". I just don't see how a real democracy can maintain such a designation over the long haul. It would be like calling the US a "Protestant state", for example. It may not be a problem now, but it could be 100 years from now.

[cali]

12. You do realize that Great Britain is officially

a Christian state, right?

[MonkeyFunk]

14. Yes

You do realize it's a monarchy, too, right?

But the question remains - for ANY country - how does a real democracy mesh with a designation of the nation being for a particular religious or cultural group? There are no guarantees that religious or cultural group will maintain the majority forever. If the designation is more important than the democracy, then steps have to be made to limit the growth of the "outsiders", or deny them the same power others have in the democracy.

[Imperialism Inc.]

13. It is a "problem" that is discussed openly in the Israeli media.

The position that the state should take proactive measures to stop non-Jews from ever becoming the majority is a mainstream position. It would be a bit like if my neighborhood was forbidding Republicans to move in, and then proclaiming what a great liberal progressive democratic neighborhood it is. It may be liberal progressive but it sure wouldn't be democratic.

[papau]

18. multicultural democracy is not in the cards for a Muslim majority single state n/t

n/t

[wellst0nev0ter]

24. Translated: Look Over There! Iran! (n/t)

[William769]

2. Can the same be said of America?

[Ken Burch]

4. Unfortunately yes, at least on some days.

But here, at least, people are moving towards peace rather than war. People are slowly gaining humanity rather than losing it. This can change, of course.

But in Israel, it looks strongly as though the Avigdor Liebermans and the Binyamin Netanyahus will be popular for the rest of eternity. It looks like hate has carried the day forever.
It looks like nobody listens to people like Uri Avneri and the peace movement and B'tselem.

I guess I'm looking for some reason to believe the place hasn't gone permanently to the dark side.

I mean, if Likud and Yisrael Beitenyu do win the election, won't the basically just dismantle democracy and rule as a semi-military regime forever? Won't all hope be gone for all time if Netanayahu and Lieberman take over? We know they've got the next election locked up, so isn't all hope basically lost?

[cali]

5. Actually,

there's MORE reason to believe the U.S. is the nation that's gone permanently to the dark side, than Israel. In Israel there's a far more active debate on National issues than in the U.S. Read Ha'aretz any day of the week. And they may have Avigdor Lieberman but the repuke party is filled with dozens of his counterparts right here at home. And frankly, it doesn't look as if you're looking for some reason to believe that Israel hasn't gone "permanently to the dark side"; quite the contrary. Your language makes that clear.

[Ken Burch]

7. My language is the language of despair on this, cali.

I'd like to see hope here. The other thing that drives me to the level of pessisism I'm expressing, pessisimism I'd like to see a reason to give up, is that the Labor Party, from all I can tell, seems basically to have died, as has Meretz. They've both been declining and declining and declining in support. If they BOTH lose strength in the next Israeli election, will there still be a community of conscience and ideals in that country at all?

Give me some reason to believe it isn't all lost there.

[leveymg]

6. If the U.S rediscovers democracy, Israel will have to, also.

Both countries have to overcome the same Right-wing oligarchies. If we can emerge as a more democratic country from this reign of vulture capitalism and privatization, then Israel will follow suit. They really have no other choice.

No more tail wagging the dog.

[Ken Burch]

8. For the sake of everybody, let's hope you're right.

n/t.

[HamdenRice]

15. What the Hell Happened to the Labor Party????

I don't understand the Israeli electorate. Israel actually had relative peace during the Rabin and Barak administrations, while progress was being made toward accomodation with the Palestinians. Most of Israel's founding heroes were Labor. Labor leaders have the only hopeful, credible plan for the future. Labor cares more about middle class and working class people.

Yet the Israeli electorate rejects Labor over and over and votes for more terrorism, more privatization and more war.

I can't understand them.

Ooops. Republicans. George W. Bush. Kettle, meet Mr. Black.

[papau]

20. Fear buys votes - and the GOP in the US helped sell fear in Israel - Labor is

alive and well, and when or if the Palestinians ever have a government interested in a 2 state solution where one state is majority Jewish, the feeling of the vast majority in Israel that want peace will return Labor to power. At least that is my hope.

[Jim Sagle]

16. Will phony progressives ever stop obsessing over it?

[Ken Burch]

17. Who are you to say other people are "phony progressives"

Given that all you do is insult anybody who says ANYTHING progressive.
(oh, and please at least try to respond to this without simply using a dirty word).

I doubt Ben Harper would back you up on your left-bashing.

[Jim Sagle]

19. And who are YOU to selectively bash a small nation of people over and over

while neglecting everything else going on in this world?

I don't bash the left, just that portion of the left that reflexively and incessantly bashes Israel. You'd know that if you had any interest in ANYTHING but I/P.

[Ken Burch]

21. I post on all sorts of other threads.

Of the 118 active threads I'm involved in on this board, this, at the moment, is the only thread dealing with I/P issues. I've actually stayed away from there for awhile, partly because I found one thread I was in posted in a right-wing "pro-Israeli" site and used to unjustly abuse me.

And I don't see what's "Bashing" about lamenting the death of all progressive values in a country that USED to be progressive. It saddens me and it raises legitimate questions as to whether we should bother backing it since it no longer seems to serve any non-reactionary purpose. Nationalism is pretty much always reactionary in the end.

It looked like this place would be different. Why doesn't it bother you that it didn't end up being so?

If they never elect anything but right-wing governments again, will you still be arguing that the U.S. is obligated to send insane amounts of war aid over there? Will you still claim that this is owed because of PAST antisemitism?

[WinkyDink]

22. Compared to support for its progressive, enlightened, democratic neighbors?

[Ken Burch]

23. That's a cheap shot.

I wish all the ME countries were democratic. But the fact that Israel USED to be progressive and humane doesn't get it off the hook for going deeply reactionary since the Nineties.
And before you throw in the "Israel is gay-friendly" thing, remember, that will go away when Likud and Yisrael Beitenyu win the next election. And nobody there will even try to prevent it.

[cali]

25. Is your crystal ball really so infallible?

You seem to know with total conviction everything that's going to happen in Israel. Sorry, I don't believe your predictive qualities are the last word. As for that posters comment being a cheap shot, I kind of agree, but I must say even the mildest criticism of Iran or Ahmadinejad- even with a disclaimer that one is not advocating any form of military action against that country is invariably met with howls of outrage and denial- and you're aware of that. Whereas virtually no criticism of Israel is deemed too outrageous by the vast majority of DUers. It is rather interesting.

[Ken Burch]

26. No country that went that far to the right ever came back to the left.

Past a certain point reactionary politics become irreversible. Can you really deny that Israel, which used to be humane, has passed this point? Give me some reason to believe otherwise.

I'd be glad to be proved wrong. I don't enjoy feeling this way.

There should be more criticism of Ahmadinejad, but the problem is, that anytime anybody does join in such criticism, the response tends to be "see? see? that's why we have to nuke the place!"

You would agree that any military attack on Iran would be insane, I hope, especially since Putin would respond on Iran's side and we'd end up in World War III?

[cali]

please provide some proof of that broad assertion.

Because I can think of several countries that veered precipitously towards the right only to move to a saner position- Chile comes to mind, as does Spain and Greece. That's just a ridiculous statement. And I already gave you some reason for hope- the vigorous debate within Israeli society, and here's another, over in i/p, someone just posted a poll demonstrating that Israelis disagree with their gov's decision not to deal with the new Palestinian Unity government. However, if you're right than all hope is lost not only for Israel but for the U.S. I'm coming to reluctant conclusion that you simply don't want to see any signs that contradict your gloomy position.

As for your statement that anytime there's criticism of Iran, there's a chorus of calls to nuke it, surely you're not saying that happens frequently on DU. I've seen very, very few such endorsements of any military action against Iran.

Oh, and you know damn well that I've adamently affirmed that I am against ANY military action against Iran. I've said so repeatedly on threads that you've commented on. You're being a tad disengenuous in asking me that again.

[Ken Burch]

38. Actually, I hadn't been in any threads here where you discussed Iran

So I honestly didn't know what your views were.

[cali]

27. self-delete- dupe

[LeftishBrit]

30. Oh? What about Germany?

Under Hitler, that was as right-wing and oppressive and just about as evil an influence on the world as it's possible to be. Yet for many years it has been a decent, mainstream, reasonably progressive Europaean country, which often has socialist governments. Its current government is Europaean-style conservative, which still means way to the left of Bush. That is certainly a country which went to the right and came back.

Or, in case you argue that this is not a good example as the move to the left originally followed a military defeat - what about Spain? Spain was ruled by a right-wing, essentially fascist government until and through the war and beyond it - *until the 1970s*! That's a long time! Franco died in office in 1975. But since then, Spain has been a very democratic country, which often has socialist governments, as it does at the moment.

I think that any country can change for the better, and this is especially true of countries, such as Israel, that had been left-wing until fairly recently.

[cali]

33. I won't be at all surprised if the poster

you're addressing responds to neither of our posts refuting his claim.

[Ken Burch]

36. I'm not even going to touch a comparison with Germany in this context.

n/t.

[cali]

37. That poster may have mentioned Germany. I certainly did NOT

Again, here's what I wrote and asked you to respond to, but feel free to continue ducking.

please provide some proof of that broad assertion.
Because I can think of several countries that veered precipitously towards the right only to move to a saner position- Chile comes to mind, as does Spain and Greece. That's just a ridiculous statement. And I already gave you some reason for hope- the vigorous debate within Israeli society, and here's another, over in i/p, someone just posted a poll demonstrating that Israelis disagree with their gov's decision not to deal with the new Palestinian Unity government. However, if you're right than all hope is lost not only for Israel but for the U.S. I'm coming to reluctant conclusion that you simply don't want to see any signs that contradict your gloomy position.

As for your statement that anytime there's criticism of Iran, there's a chorus of calls to nuke it, surely you're not saying that happens frequently on DU. I've seen very, very few such endorsements of any military action against Iran.

Oh, and you know damn well that I've adamently affirmed that I am against ANY military action against Iran. I've said so repeatedly on threads that you've commented on. You're being a tad disengenuous in asking me that again.

[Ken Burch]

39. Well, Spain did. AFTER 36 years and Franco's death.

And Greece did, after the military junta finally fell at great loss of human life.

I'm glad to see that poll result. I'd be more impressed if the same poll showed support for Kadima, Likud and Yisrael Beitenyu collapsing.

[cali]

41. And Chile and Greece and yes, other states, but you've

clearly determined that Israel is as you put it, "a dead zone", and beyond hope, and any evidence that contradicts your theory, you dismiss out of hand. I'm done.

[Ken Burch]

42. I said I was hoping to find evidence that it WASN'T a dead zone.

I'd be glad for the nightmarish prospects that the next election seems to offer to turn out to be wrong. That would be great.

[Ken Burch]

40. It was LeftistBrit's post I was responding to in regards to Germany,

Even making that comparison re:Israel is a minefield I'd never step near, let alone into.

[LeftishBrit]

43. Good God, I do need to clarify! I was NOT making that sort of comparison!

I was NOT, repeat NOT, saying that Israel (or America or Britain or any other country) currently is anything remotely like Nazi Germany!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was simply replying to the argument that once a country (which seemed to imply ANY country) goes too far right it doesn't get back to the left again. I did so by pointing out that even in that MOST extreme of cases, Germany did move back to the left.

Another, less extreme, example of a country that was very right-wing and then moved back to the left is Portugal.

[Ken Burch]

45. No, you weren't making that comparison.

but it looked like I would have to do so. I was just trying to avoid going there.

[LeftishBrit]

44. Nobody was making a COMPARISON with Germany; I was simply pointing out that even the most extreme

case (far more extreme than any that we're dealing with here) of a right-wing country did move back to the left. I was responding to the specific argument that a country that moves too far to the right cannot move back to the left. So I would be grateful if words and thoughts would not be put into my mouth.

Spain, Portugal and, as Cali points out, Chile and Greece, are also countries that were very right-wing at certain times and then moved back to the left.

Countries change political affiliations all the time.

[LeftishBrit]

34. Good point, Cali

I have noticed that while many people here will say (rightly) that it is acceptable and not intrinsically anti-semitic to criticize the Israeli government, the same people sometimes assume that if you criticize the Iranian government, you must be a supporter of invasion.

It is quite possible to critize the Israeli government without being anti-semitic (though *some* people may criticize it as an excuse for anti-semitism) and similarly it is quite possible to criticize the Iranian government while being a strong opponent of invasion (though *some* people may criticize it as an excuse for supporting invasion). I think we should be able to criticize any and alll countries and governments. I don't believe in 'exceptionalism', either in the sense of any country or countries being immune to criticism, or in the sense of their being uniquely subject to criticism.

[WinkyDink]

29. Oh, behave. I don't even know what you mean by Israel's being "gay -friendly".

And just because YOU call something a "cheap shot" doesn't make it so.

If Israel isn't a progressive paradise, maybe it's for any number of reasons. Just like here.

[MonkeyFunk]

32. So Israel's neighbors make it anti-progressive?

Is Progressivism antithetical to peace in a hostile situation? Some would argue the opposite.

[WinkyDink]

35. Well, you're assuming I accept the premise.

But if true, why the emphasis on Israel here, anyway?
Because it hasn't lived up to some ideal?
Because her people and leaders have shown behaviors and traits common to many?

And yes, I think having continual attacks from one's contiguous neighbors might eventually make one weary and even questioning decades of policies.

[LeftishBrit]

28. I have hopes that some day it will be

There is a strong peace movement there, and the population is very divided on the issues. Even nasty ultra-hawk Sharon was moving, or being pushed, in the direction of giving up some land for peace, when he became incapacitated and was replaced by the inexperienced panicky fool Olmert, who has allowed Bush to lead him by the nose IMO.

Anyone with an interest in this issue might be interested in this organization, which I just found out about myself:

http://www.ameinu.net

As to why progressives should support this country (I assume you mean its existence, which should be supported, rather than its current government, which shouldn't be)- well, why should progressives support virtually *any* country? One could equally say that the United States should not exist, because it currently has a disastrously right-wing president who has caused disaster throughout the world; and because its creation involved oppression of, and at times genocidal policies against, Native Americans. One could say that Britain should not exist because it practiced imperialism for over 200 years. One could say that Germany shouldn't exist because of Hitler. Etc.

For the rest, I agree with Cali's posts, and would like to add that Israel was set up as a homeland and refuge for *ethnic* Jews; not necessarily religious ones. Many Jews in Israel are secular, and none of the main political parties have run, or attempted to run, the country as a theocracy (there are a few minor parties that might wish to, but they have no power).

Anti-semitism has usually not been based primarily on opposition to Judaism as a religion, but to Jews as an ethnic group. Indeed, the term 'anti-semitism' was invented - ironically by anti-semites - to express this very point ('anti-Jewish' might mean opposition to the religion; 'anti-semitic' explicitly meant opposition to the ethnic group, irrespective of religion). Hitler did not care whether Jews were Orthodox, Reform, atheists, or had converted to Christianity. Anyone who was ethnically Jewish - or even could be shown to have a Jewish great-grandparent - could be sent off to a concentration camp and murdered.

It is in this context that Israel was created as a homeland for ethnic Jews.

None of this justifies current and recent Israeli governments being right-wing and idiotic and violent, any more than it justifies any other country's government, including the Bush and Blair governments, being right-wing and idiotic and violent. But this is not linked to it's being a Jewish country; and yes, I think there is every chance that it could become progressive again, as it once was. Just as I hope that Britain will become progressive again, and that the United States will become more progressive than it ever was.

[BayCityProgressive]

31. At Israel's founding

it was social democratic/ or even socialist. Most of the founders were progressives and socialists. Just to give oyu an idea of how left-wing they were in the begginning, Castro once called them a sister socialist country to Cuba. Now they are moving in our direction of state fascism.