the everyday psychopath

[undeterred]

I've been in my own little world the past few days, recovering from a job loss and trying to figure out what happened. The most prominent thing is that I could not stand working for a manager who lies all the time. As I reported this to Human Resources I gradually became aware that lying was not a problem for them- my inability to be subordinate to lying was the problem. And lying for them is not a problem either. They manufactured a work rule which never existed in order to try to deny me unemployment benefits, and I since have found out that they do this with everyone. They lie, all the time, about everything.

Why should I be surprised, that in a nation where the president is a habitual liar, corporations are led by groups of people who both tolerate and encourage habitual lying, as long as it is in their interest?

I started looking at personality disorders and came across a sort of "everyday psychopath", not the kind who murders, but the kind who is your relative or manager:

Too many people hold the idea that psychopaths are essentially killers or convicts. The general public hasn't been educated to see beyond the social stereotypes to understand that psychopaths can be entrepreneurs, politicians, CEOs and other successful individuals who may never see the inside of a prison and who don't commit violent crimes. However, they do often commit violations of another sort: They exploit people and leave them depleted and much the worse for the encounter. They prove to be treacherous employees, conniving businessmen, or immoral officials who use their position to victimize people and enrich themselves.

Psychopathy is characterized by such traits as

* lack of remorse or empathy
* shallow emotions
* manipulativeness
* lying
* egocentricity
* glibness
* low frustration tolerance
* episodic relationships
* parasitic lifestyle
* persistent violation of social norms


http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopathy_aspd_sociopathy.htm

This sounds like a lot of the people I know who have made it to upper management. The habitual lying is really the foremost trait though.

[XanaDUer]

1. Read "The Mask of Sanity" if you can find it

Your local public library can interlibrary loan it for you. Very interesting read.

[susanna]

37. That book actually discusses

the tendency of our culture to reward psychopaths in business and sport, IIRC. I agree with XanaDUer - folks should read this book.

[EFerrari]

2. When you say you started looking at PDs and "came across"

the "everyday psychopath", what are you meaning?

I'm curious. When Doug decompensated, some really very nasty, even dangerous, anti-social stuff got disinhibited. Stuff he'd never even imagine when he was okay.

Do you have a link or?

Thanks.

[undeterred]

7. There's a link in the original post

I took a class on personality disorders years ago, when the DSM-III was current. I am not in the mental health field so my knowledge is out of date. But at the time I remember that there were eight more or less normal personality disorders and three that were more extreme. I was just getting the big picture, not anything like the detail a psychiatrist would get. A psychopath would be someone with an "active" manifestation of "actisocial" personality disorder and that person would be considered very dangerous. They have no conscience.

But I did not realize that there was a "passive" manifestation of this personality disorder which involves lying and manipulation. There is no physical harm, just a lot of lying, manipulation, and emotional harm. Thats what I mean by an everyday psychopath. They aren't going to get arrested for anything, in fact they may do rather well in life. But they will hurt a lot of people along the way.

[EFerrari]

13. Gotcha. And yes, that happens. n/t

[mudesi]

3. Sounds like Dick Cheney

And Lynn, for that matter.

[DCKit]

4. And corporations, by definition,

are psychopathic entities.

[Double T]

5. Psychopaths are running wall street, corporate america and the WH.............

and many of their subordinates fall victim to their treachery each day. I'm sorry you had to go through your ordeal, it can be devastating. Here is some additional info: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/index.htm
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

[undeterred]

12. Wow, thanks.

I have run into individual bullies from time to time. But this time it was a whole department.

[TahitiNut]

25. If you want an almost complete description of DIck Cheney, read that.

He's the prototypical EVOLVED corporate bully ... in spades!

• Jekyll & Hyde nature - vicious and vindictive in private, but innocent and charming in front of witnesses; no-one can (or wants to) believe this individual has a vindictive nature - only the current target sees both sides
• is a convincing, compulsive liar and when called to account, will make up anything spontaneously to fit their needs at that moment
• uses lots of charm and is always plausible and convincing when peers, superiors or others are present; the motive of the charm is deception and its purpose is to compensate for lack of empathy
• relies on mimicry to convince others that they are a "normal" human being but their words, writing and deeds are hollow, superficial and glib
• displays a great deal of certitude and self-assuredness to mask their insecurity
• excels at deception
• exhibits unusual inappropriate attitudes to sexual matters or sexual behaviour; underneath the charming exterior there are often suspicions or intimations of sexual harassment, sex discrimination or sexual abuse (sometimes racial prejudice as well)
• exhibits much controlling behaviour and is a control freak
• displays a compulsive need to criticise whilst simultaneously refusing to acknowledge, value and praise others
• when called upon to share or address the needs and concerns of others, responds with impatience, irritability and aggression
• often has an overwhelming, unhealthy and narcissistic need to portray themselves as a wonderful, kind, caring and compassionate person, in contrast to their behaviour and treatment of others; the bully is oblivious to the discrepancy between how they like to be seen (and believe they are seen), and how they are actually seen
• has an overbearing belief in their qualities of leadership but cannot distinguish between leadership (maturity, decisiveness, assertiveness, trust and integrity) and bullying (immaturity, impulsiveness, aggression, distrust and deceitfulness)
• when called to account, immediately and aggressively denies everything, then counter-attacks with distorted or fabricated criticisms and allegations; if this is insufficient, quickly feigns victimhood, often by bursting into tears (the purpose is to avoid answering the question and thus evade accountability by manipulating others through the use of guilt)
• is also ... aggressive, devious, manipulative, spiteful, vengeful, doesn't listen, can't sustain mature adult conversation, lacks a conscience, shows no remorse, is drawn to power, emotionally cold and flat, humourless, joyless, ungrateful, dysfunctional, disruptive, divisive, rigid and inflexible, selfish, insincere, insecure, immature and deeply inadequate, especially in interpersonal skills
  

[davsand]

29. When they travel are they snakes on a plane?

I'm SO sorry, but I just HAD to do it...


Laura

[Double T]

39. THEY are ALWAYS 'snakes' on land, sea and in the air..............

and until YOU have been targeted and attacked by one of them, you'll never have an appreciation for their devastating behavior. I also understand THEY have a insatiable desire to devour 'cabbits'.

[davsand]

40. I have been a target in the workplace.

And I'll tell you it is NO fun. I ended up on both antidepressants and tranquilizers. I lost a year of my life to workplace harassment and I understand quite well how awful it is.

I also understand that I was sustained MANY times by a sense of humor and a sympathetic ear. If you quit laughing you end up in a bell tower, laying down on the yellow line or else six feet under. I refuse to do that.

Regards.


Laura

[Double T]

43. Glad you are a survivor and I'm sorry you were a victim of these thugs.

I am hopeful that someday there will legislation in this country, as there already is in many other countries, to stop workplace bullying and laws requiring the ouster of corporate sociopaths and psychopaths.

[Raven]

6. I have a close relative who is a "sociopath"

many of the same characteristics. These people are toxic. What is the difference between the two?

[undeterred]

9. I think an active sociopath may actually commit crimes

and do physical harm, while someone who is more passive stays within the law but is deceitful and conniving and dishonest.

[EFerrari]

17. And may experience those behaviors as survival measures.

I'm no expert in any sense of that word but that's what my family member thought/did.

[EFerrari]

15. Toxic? Well, Raven, people in general seem to be contagious.

I guess it's a matter of choosing your adventure. lol

[Syncronaut Seven]

8. My observations indicate that better than 20%

of the US population is clinically sociopathic. My estimate may be low.

[cassiepriam]

10. Corporate culture is ripe with sociopathy. It is the norm. BushCo reflects what the US has become.

[TahitiNut]

18. It truly is. It requires active, concerted efforts within a corporation to excise it.

Few if any corporations do so anymore. Indeed, psychopathology is rewarded and promoted. In the "trenches," the passive-aggressive psychopaths are becoming legion. I'm convinced, after a career spent in the corporate 'world' including 5 years as an internal auditor, that corporations have become a cancer on the globe - incubators for psychopaths beyond what Stanley Milgram ever imagined.

[cassiepriam]

22. The sociopathy is deeply ingrained in our culture at this point, will be

almost impossible to change it. It is extensive, deeply embedded,
and highly rewarded as you correctly point out.

Trying to change things from within the corporations is a death sentence.
Anyone who speaks out is fired and blackballed.

The corporations spawned BushCo. Getting rid of the repugs still leaves
a country full of sociopaths who are spitting images of Bush.

[melody]

11. An excellent link about psychopaths in the workplace, et al

http://www.bullyonline.org/

I've crossed paths with a couple of full-blown sociopaths in my life, one in particular. Victims of sociopaths become experts really fast -- Bush and Cheney are almost certainly sociopaths. This link helped me keep my head together during the worst of it.

[H2O Man]

14. Most psychopaths

do not commit murder. They are not the "evil genius" of movies. They are people you encounter in everyday life.

[EFerrari]

16. Yep. n/t

[undeterred]

19. The psychopath from my workplace seemed completely innocuous

If you met him at a party along with 9 other people, he is the one you wouldn't even remember. But he is at work full time bad mouthing you behind your back. To your face he is pleasant and even puts a little Christmas candy on your desk. Behind your back he is constantly building a case against you. If you tell him something he puts a little twist on it and tells someone else.

Once he gets a little bit of power, every single thing you do or say is not up to standard or its insubordinate. In my case, I was using "too many sticky notes". I'm not kidding. What really killed me is that when the old manager left this guy simply didn't have the skills to do about 1/3 of the job so I and another person just stepped up and started doing it. He didn't even seem to notice this. We didn't get a raise or any thanks for taking on more work, and he got a 15% raise for doing 2/3 of the job the last manager did. I caught him in at least a dozen lies which I reported to Human Resources, some of them pretty serious- and guess what- they just don't care. Being a manager at this place gives you a license to lie to people.

Silly me. But I can't work under those circumstances.

[H2O Man]

21. There are a number

good books that are worth reading. The two authors I found most helpful in the years where my job involved working with a population that included psychopaths were Dr. Robert D. Hare, and J. Reid Meloy.

Hare's book "Without ConscienceL the disturbing world of the psychopaths amoung us," and Meloy's "The Psychopathic Mind" are perhaps the best. I recommend them, rather than some of the lower quality books I have encountered.

[undeterred]

23. the link I found was work from Hare

I do think that the most interesting work is done by those who are studying successful people rather than people who fail in society. Not that the latter isn't important. Its just really interesting to see how traits like conniving and lying can also lead to success. I have an ex brother in law who exhibited all those traits as a teenager. But he married and became a "Christian public relations manager"-- well you can just imagine -- for some of the slimiest people around. He cheated on his wife and didn't come home at night for days at a time. If she challenged him about it he'd be all wounded and hurt. Such a liar. Eventually he walked out on the marriage and left a note on the dresser.

I could see all this crap when I was 16, I don't know why his wife couldn't see it till she was 46. There are a lot of people like this in the faux Christian world.

[LiberalEsto]

20. Here is a great book on jerks at work

"The No Asshole Rule"
http://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Rule-Civilized-Workplace-Surviving/dp/0446526568

My husband started reading it last week and said it's fabulous for helping him understand the lunatics he works with, and showing him ways to deal with them.

Good luck to you!

[LeftishBrit]

24. Sorry about your experience

I have also experienced a workplace bully who had many psychopathic characteristics. It was not fun.

An interesting recent book on this subject is Paul Babiak and R. D. Hare: Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work (2006).

[Quantess]

26. Kicking, because it's so darn interesting.

I'm sure there are many ordinary people who are like this to a degree, some more and some less. A layperson can't diagnose someone else, even unofficially, although while reading this I'm cerain that some of us are diagnosing other people in our minds...

[undeterred]

30. its so hard to deal with

because its so counter-intuitive that a person who lies all the time can be so successful. I guess I never realized what a skill it is, and that some people spend years perfecting and nuancing this skill. I thought this person was totally harmless and he made me lose my job- but he did 99.9% of his work behind my back- he even invited me to lunch the day he was going to fire me, though I declined. Now that level of duplicity takes years of practice.

[Quantess]

35. That's really lousy

that they (the manager and the rest of the company) are trying to prevent you from getting unemployment insurance. I know of a small company that gets its claws out whenever any of their former employees files for unemployment, and I think it's very petty of them. I don't fully understand the reasoning behind it. I was not involved in any way, but I got to hear all about it, from the person who was actively working hard to make sure this person did not get unemployment insurance. It was like a personal vendetta.

On another unrelated thought, have you seen the movie "American Psycho"?

[Lil Missy]

41. I saw that movie just recently!

"American Psycho"

It left me speechless! And, being the political junkie that I am, I immediately thought about Cheney and Bush. My SO thought I was nuts.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. Lots of lawyers and judges in that category, sadly.

According to my job experience. They enjoy abusing people and lying and backstabbing.

[Jonathan50]

38. What is the only official noble title still left in the United States?

It has to do with your post.

























"Your Honor"

Psychopaths like being feared and deferred to.

[karlrschneider]

28. That describes a guy I worked for. Senator Tom Coburn's daddy.

He was the most amoral man I ever knew, exhibited every one of those 10 traits and even seemed to take pride in them. :eyes:

[corkhead]

31. Psychopathic sounds like a more appropriate name for the Republick party

[rosesaylavee]

32. Hey, your week was almost parallel to mine!

You (and I) are better off without working with and for sick minds.

edit: doh. spelling.

[undeterred]

33. Well, that's true

but I have this terrible fear that they're almost everywhere. :shrug:

[rosesaylavee]

34. My family thinks

I am a magnet for odd employment situations. I do know that sickness is rewarded and can point toward some highly successful but truly sick people to prove it.

I am taking a few days to decompress and assess the situation before I leap into replacing that income. I don't get unemployment either in my situation but I do have a small cushion. I would prefer not working directly under this type of person again ... or hiring them by mistake!

[Jonathan50]

36. Psychopaths at Home, at work, and in the Garden

I found this whilst surfing one day and happened to bookmark it because I thought it interesting.

http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/signs/forum/viewforum.php?id=10

[noonwitch]

42. That sounds more like a sociopath

There are differences between sociopaths and psychopaths.

Sociopaths are mentally sane. They have no delusional disorders or any major misperceptions of reality (except of their own importance in the world). They just have no consciences and think that they are the only real people in the world. There are lots of highly-functioning sociopaths in the world-if you catch one at a young enough age, you can instill the concept of consequences in him or her. They commit crimes when they don't see the big picture-they do whatever they have to in order to get whatever they are trying to get.

A psychopath has a mental illness and doesn't have a conscience. A psychopath is insane, by most standards, and doesn't perceive reality the way most people do.

It's a fine line when it comes to criminals, but there is a difference, and there are degrees.