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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 07:31 PM
Original message
The Great Political Divide in today’s United States
There is a great political divide in our country today. I must respectfully but strongly disagree with Barack Obama’s assertion in his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. There is not “One America” today. I don’t know exactly how many there are, but politically speaking the United States of America is not in any sense a united and homogeneous country today.

On the one side of the great political divide are those who call themselves liberals or progressives. I include myself on that side. I will refer to them here as liberals because, as far as I can tell, liberal and progressive mean the same thing. The term “liberal”, however, has been so denigrated over the past couple of decades by Republicans and our corporate news media that not many people call themselves that anymore. I think that’s a mistake. By changing what we call ourselves we are at least in part buying into the stereotype of liberals painted by Republicans – and thereby granting undeserved credibility to that stereotype.

The liberal outlook is personified in the U.S. Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution*, and the rules of the Democratic Underground. The Declaration of Independence declares that all “men” (and by extension, all people) have certain unalienable rights and that among those rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That in a nutshell is what separates liberals from the other side of the political divide. Almost everything else that separates us from the other side of the divide flows from those great principles.

The DU rules are largely an attempt by its liberal administrators to incorporate those principles into the running of their web site, which they do by emphasizing civility, the showing of respect for all DU members, and the absolute banning of bigoted statements. The U.S. Constitution is the attempt to incorporate those principles into the legal foundations of our nation*.

On the other side of the great political divide, at the other end of the spectrum, are Bush Republicans – the approximately 30% of our population who approve of the job that George Bush has done as President. It’s hard to tell exactly what these people believe in, but it is certainly evident that they don’t believe in the major principles of the U.S. Declaration of Independence or the clauses of the U.S. Constitution which purpose it was to incorporate those principles into the laws of our nation. To them, our Constitution simply represents a barrier to what they consider to be more important ends. Yes, they provide lip service to those founding documents of our nation, since they are very fond of claiming to be “patriotic”. But that’s where their commitment ends.

* We must acknowledge, however, that the U.S. Constitution was an imperfect attempt to incorporate the principles of the Declaration of Independence. At its beginning it greatly restricted the right to vote, it allowed slavery, and it incompletely protected individual rights against the intrusions of government. However, through the amendment process the American people have addressed all of those and many other defects, and our Constitution has thereby greatly improved over the 230 years of our nation’s existence.


Beyond the pale – clues to what is most important to both sides of the divide

A lot can be ascertained about the character of a political group by what it considers to be “beyond the pale”, a term that is used to denote beliefs or actions that are considered so outrageous that they should not be tolerated.

One major thing that liberals consider to be beyond the pale are shows of contempt for individuals that are based on group identification – such as race, national origin, gender, religion, class or sexual orientation. Such shows of contempt are the antithesis of the great principles asserted in our Declaration of independence.

By demonstrating contempt for groups of individuals – in word or in deed – one suggests that the people who belong to those groups are not deserving of the same unalienable rights that other Americans are. Therefore, even the verbal expression of contempt for these groups encourages the abrogation of their human rights, and when publicly accepted even serves in many cases to encourage violence against them. A prime example of that kind of behavior is Ann Coulter referring to John Edwards as a “faggot”. That statement, of course, was meant not only as an insult to John Edwards, but was meant as well as a show of contempt for all gay men.

There is very little overlap between the two sides of the great political divide as to what they consider to be beyond the pale. What Republicans mainly consider to be beyond the pale are criticisms of “their country”. (I put “their country” in quotes because most Republicans have a very different idea of what defines their country than do liberals.) A typical example is when Senator Richard Durbin dared to describe, on the floor of the U.S. Senate, the torture of U.S. prisoners under the auspices of the U.S. government. Republicans were greatly outraged by Durbin’s description – not because of the despicable actions of our government, but because Durbin exposed those actions. This principle also explains why Michael Moore is singled out for contempt by Republicans. Moore actually went so far as to imply that George Bush did an incompetent job of responding to the 9-11 attacks on our country – before it became obvious to the whole world that that was indeed the case. Republicans can’t stand that kind of thing because it exposes the imperfections of their country – or rather our current Republican government – for a wider range of people to see.

Liberals on the other hand don’t shy away from criticizing the rulers of their country when appropriate. To them it’s not the appearance but rather the reality that’s important. As I noted earlier, they want their government to measure up to the ideals expressed in its founding documents. When it fails to do so, liberals feel that it is better to criticize their government, in order to facilitate the correction of its defects, than it is to remain silent about them. That relates to another major principle expressed in our Declaration of Independence: “Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends (i.e., the inalienable rights of its citizens), it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…” That statement, of course, goes way beyond recommending mere criticism of government when conditions so warrant.

But Republicans don’t see it that way. When liberals vigorously criticize their government, especially during war time, Republicans call them “unpatriotic”. Thus, liberals and Republicans, to a very large extent, have diametrically opposite views on what defines patriotism.


The primary principles of today’s Republican Party

It is more difficult to ascertain what Republicans are for than what they are against, since they rarely openly admit what they are for. For example, George Bush claimed that we had to invade Iraq in 2003 because their weapons of mass destruction posed a great danger to our country, and then when no weapons were found he claimed that the reason for our invasion was to bring democracy to Iraqis – even though all we’ve brought them is the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians and the destruction of their country, and even though the great majority of Iraqis want us out of their country.

An important clue to what Republicans really stand for is provided by the documents written by the men of “Project for a New American Century” (PNAC), many who have played crucial roles in the military policies and planning of the Bush administration. In their document, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”, they say that the U.S. military must be much stronger than any nation or combination of nations that might oppose our ambitions, because we need to “shape a new century favorable to American interests and principles”. There are numerous references to this sort of thing throughout the document, the bottom line being that we need to be able to deter competitors by “deterring or, when needed, by compelling regional foes to act in ways that protect American interests and principles…”

A bit of reflection on the meaning of this document will show that it is the antithesis of our Declaration of Independence. Whereas our Declaration was a reaction against a foreign power that was trying to compel our fledgling nation to serve their interests, PNAC’s document asserts the right of our nation to compel other nations to serve our interests. And whereas our Declaration asserts the unalienable rights of all humans, PNAC’s document asserts that people from other nations only have those rights to the extent that they serve our interests.

Another important clue to what Republicans stand for can be seen in the domestic policies of George W. Bush and the Senate Republicans who have repeatedly supported him in virtually every one of those policies. Every single action of George Bush’s Presidency has served to advantage the wealthy and the powerful at the expense of everyone else. Such actions include, among many other things, his tax cuts for the rich, his cutting of social programs for the middle class and poor, his near total lack of response to the lives endangered by Hurricane Katrina, his abrogation of numerous laws and regulations that previously served to compel powerful corporations to act in a socially responsible manner, and his aggressive anti-union policies.


The ultimate difference between the two sides – respect for the rule of law

Republicans try very hard to create an image for themselves as being “tough on crime”. In so doing they invent victimless crimes such as drug use, with the result that half a million American citizens – mostly black, poor and highly unlikely to vote Republican – currently fill U.S. prisons for drug offenses, raising the prison rate in the United States to the highest in the world. Gay sex is another favorite victimless “crime” for many Republicans, though that’s one that even our very conservative U.S. Supreme Court has rejected.

But when it comes to some of the most important crimes of all – violations of the U.S. Constitution, international law, or our election laws, Republicans don’t seem to care much. For example, consider some Constitutional violations that George Bush has perpetrated on American citizens with the almost complete support of Congressional Republicans:

By authorizing the National Security Agency and other intelligence agencies to conduct warrantless spying on hundreds of thousands or millions of American citizens, he has violated our Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable searches; in his treatment of thousands of prisoners of war, he has repeatedly violated international law specified in the Geneva Convention of 1949, as well the due process clause of our Fifth Amendment, our Sixth Amendment right to a public trial, to face one’s accusers, to be represented by counsel and to be informed of the charges against one’s self, and our Eighth Amendment protection against cruel and unusual punishment.

When the 2004 Presidential election in Ohio (which caused George Bush to be “re-elected” President in 2004) was found to be riddled with “irregularities”, Republicans voiced nothing but contempt for any investigation into that series of crimes of monumental importance. And the Bush administration thinks nothing of playing politics with the U.S. justice system by firing federal prosecutors who refuse to be compliant with the political demands of the Bush administration.

All of these things vividly demonstrate how Republicans view the rule of law in our country – including our Constitution, which provides the foundation for our whole system of laws.

I said earlier in this post that one great principal of liberals is that they are against showing disrespect for individual people based upon group membership. There are legitimate exceptions to that principle, and the most important one today is the Republican Party. That Party is beyond the pale. Showing respect for people who support the policies of today’s Republican Party serves little useful purpose. We are dealing today with a group of people whose purpose is to hijack our country and turn it into a Fascist state which serves the privileged few at the expense of the vast majority of American citizens and causes much of the rest of the world to hate us. Adequately addressing that grave challenge will require something very different than the respect and civility with which Congressional Democrats traditionally relate to Republicans.
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. If this country were anymore divided
there would be civil war.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I agree with you....and I think that the Necons are vile and violent
Edited on Mon Mar-19-07 07:50 PM by MadMaddie
enough to start an internal war so they can attempt to retain their power.

I have caught flack for it before but would it be such a bad thing to give the Necons 3-4 states and let them run their own little facist country where none of the people have insurance, only the rich and their kids can move ahead in society and religion dictates everything they do.

Good Riddance.

The remaining 70% of Americans can move this country forward and into a position to really compete against other countries. The American dream can really be accomplished,everyone will have access to health care and education. And every citizen in the US can have equal rights and feel safe from tyranny.

That's all....I will get my own bag of popcorn and prepare to get flamed :popcorn:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. That wouldn't be a bad idea at all
Give them Texas, Mississipi, Alabama, S. Carolina, Utah, and Wyoming -- and good riddance, like ou say.

The only problem is, they would never settle for that. They want it all. And I shudder to think what they would do to get it. :scared:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. What about us non-neo-cons in those states?

Move to the Free states and get another job?

Yeah, right. Try getting another job in your own state, especially if you've got some age on you.

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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. I'm sorry but you can't fucking have MY Texas.
Sorry....a liberal, not a pacifist. TRY to take my home in Austin and find your butt full of buckshot.
Molly Ivins, Ann Richards, Jim Hightower, etc...lots of cool people here. Don't bash my fucking state. There are assholes everywhere.
I LIVED in Boston during the busing riots...little black kid hung from basketball poll. You want me to love your post, don't make blanket generalizations.
Lee
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Yes, you are right of course
There are of course millions of people in Texas who voted for both Kerry and Gore, and millions in New York and California who voted for Bush. I just got a little carried away with the thought that if Texas had declared its independence from us in 1999 then we could have had a decent President for the past 6 years and the world wouldn't be on the verge of blowing up. But then, that wouldn't be fair to the Texans.

Sorry if I offended you.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Bush was born in Connecticut, not Texas
No apology needed but I wish folks would get that right. <g>

If Natalie Maines had remembered that the Chicks wouldn't be in such hot water today...<g>
Lee
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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. I believe there is war coming just around the corner, from within.
Classic "divide and conquer". Read Howard Zinn's history book, "A Peoples History of the US".

We have a moment in time to change things and we are on a dangerous edge.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. The thing really keeping the country divided is the MSM
Since we all know that there is only about 30% of the country who follow bush, why is the MSM constantly pushing that point of view.

They never give both sides. Until the democrats get honesty in the media we will never have any type of unity.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The MSM, otherwise known as the "corporate media" -- since they aren't really "mainstream" --
is for the most part on their side.

The corporate media is owned by a very small number of extremely wealthy individuals, whose main interest is in maintaining the status quo. They have covered up for Bush tremendously, since he first became a candidate for President. I have always maintained that without their help he could never achieve double digit approval ratings.

Just think of it. They covered up the fact that he was wired to his handlers for his debates with John Kerry. They covered up the fact that there was no rational justificaton for war with Iraq. They have covered up the fact that he totally missed the boat on preventing the 9-11 attacks on our country (that is, if you don't believe in MIHOP or LIHOP). They covered up the fact that the 9-11 Commission was a ridiculous whitewash. They made Bush out to be some sort of a hero simply because he was able to utter a few coherant words to the nation following 9-11.

So, I believe that you are correct in the sense that without the corporate news media there would have been no Bush Presidency, and therefore there would be a lot less division in our country. But don't think for a minute that we will get honesty out of this particular corporate news media.

What we need is a way to oppose the power that they have, and for that we need to re-institute laws that will combat their monopolization of the national news. The internet has been a great help in that regard -- but too many people still get their news from the corporate news media. We need a President and a Congress who is willing to take them on -- big time.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
4.  You realize, of course, that they say exactly the same thing about us
And earnestly feel it in their hearts and bones as well.

Your post is intelligent and thoughtful, but unfortunately you lost me in your last paragraph. "I said earlier in this post that one great principal of liberals is that they are against showing disrespect for individual people based upon group membership. There are legitimate exceptions to that principle, and the most important one today is the Republican Party."

Throughout history, it has been a commonplace to talk about the noble principle of showing basic respect to individuals irrespective of their group identity. It has also been a commonplace to (of course!) make exceptions. Without fail, those exceptions are those who belong to the out-group, those whose views or customs are foreign to the in-group. At various times, where you wrote "Republican Party" others have written "Jews" or "Negroes" or "Hmong" or "Slavs" or "Palestinians" or "Irish" or "Women" or "Shia" or "Communists"...fill in your own. The list is endless. Every "exception" was made only after a group became convinced that another group was composed of evil, irredeemable, conniving members. When really, all it was composed of, was other people.

We are biologically wired to hate the out-group with lust and venom, and give a pass to the in-group, regardless of its sins. Using what we feel in our bones as a guideline about whom to exclude from basic respect is what eventually leads to holocausts and genocides and wars. To hurt someone you must first dehumanize them. Excluding them from the human compact is the first step down a steep slope.

I hate what the Republicans have done, but I will not hate them as individuals. I will do everything in my power to bring progressive ideas to the fore, and reshape the policies of our country, but I will not do it by dehumanizing them and thus guaranteeing this asinine McCoys and Hatfields political war continues into perpetuity.

I recommend reading the ethologist Eibl-Eibsfeldt's classic book on in-group/out-group xenophobia; your eyes will be opened to the true slavery of biologically-wired hatred. It's called Love and Hate: A Natural History of Behavior Patterns. I know of no other work more enlightening on the origins of hatred and how it can be defused. They sell it used below for less than a dollar, or it can be had at any library.

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Hate-Behavior-Patterns-Foundations/dp/020202038X/ref=sr_1_3/002-2720660-8775239?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174352091&sr=1-3

Peace.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You bring up some very good and important points.
Edited on Mon Mar-19-07 08:49 PM by Time for change
I did in fact feel somewhat uncomfortable about that last paragraph, and I wondered if some people might consider it somewhat inconsistent with other parts of the post, or even hypocritical.

Perhaps I didn't communicate exactly what I meant to say. I didn't mean to advocate hating Republicans (though perhaps I did in fact do that). I certainly was not advocating violence against them, nor was I advocating that we reflexively disrespect all Republicans, nor abrogate any of their unalienable rights. In fact, I have in some other posts advocated that we consider their point of view more and try to argue our causes from a point of view that we think will make sense to them.

Also, I do believe that there are a certain number of Republicans (I don't know how many) who are simply misguided, rather than ill-intentioned (I even had written that in an earlier draft of this post).

In part that last paragraph was a reaction against, for example, Democratic Senators who criticize George Bush or Alberto Gonzalez, while being careful to add something to the effect that they are "nice guys". I simply do not believe that, and it's difficult for me to understand how decent people can believe that. What makes someone a "nice guy" is what they do, not their ability to smile and act polite during a conversation with a Senator. And I believe that having an attitude like that -- reacting to George Bush, or people who actively defend the worst (most cruel) of his policies in an overly respectful manner, is not a productive way to promote progressive policies or a better country.

Or, another way of putting it is that, whereas I believe strongly that George W. Bush should be charged and tried for war crimes (and others as well), I most certainly do NOT recommend doing with him what he does with his prisoners. I do not want to see his Constitutional rights violated -- I believe that he should have a fair trial. And I believe that that is a major difference between him and me, because I feel quite certain that if he saw some of the things that I've written about him, and if he had the ability to throw me into a torture chamber and leave me there until eternity he would do it.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. As do you -- I appreciate that you took the time to post a clarifying reply
You have good insights, and it's a pleasure to discuss them civilly with you.

You are quite right, too, about making a distinction between professional Republican politicians and Joe or Jane Citizen. Not all repugs in Congress are vile (I'm willing to say some are merely wrong-headed), but I'll never smile wanly and say someone's a "nice guy" when their actions say they're not.

Meanwhile, you alluded to earlier posts you've made along similar lines. I'm going to look some of those up. I'm glad to make your acquaintance.

Best to you...

Peace.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. The temptation to demonize one's opponents is very strong
That temptation also has a very big unconscious component. You even participated in it just a touch by using the term "repugs" which is really shorthand for "repugnants", definitely a sign of opprobrium.

I've found it possible to go on to some right wing blogs and actually have my point of view listened to if not respected. First I make an effort to establish myself as an intelligent, thoughtful and well informed individual. Once that is accomplished I then start to very gently and indirectly cast doubt on their assumptions by using quotes and facts, never opinions.

I find that most lefties who go onto righty boards are predisposed to attack and call names, this accomplishes nothing other than reinforcing the already dim view that righties have for lefties. Of course the opposite is also true.

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend." -Robert A Heinlein
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. You speak wisely
If both ends of the political spectrum were more populated by those with your disposition and goals, our country would be less divided, and our people better served. To have an enemy is a time-consuming thing; to have a hundred million of them becomes all-consuming and an end in itself.

Once a man whose ax was missing suspected his neighbor's son.
The boy walked like a thief, looked like a thief, and spoke like a thief.
But the man found his ax while digging in the valley, and the next time he
saw his neighbor's son, the boy walked, looked and spoke like any other
child.
- Lao-tzu

It takes two to speak the truth: one to speak, and another to hear.
- Henry David Thoreau

Peace.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I have to admit
That wisdom has been slow in coming.

I've had to step back and take a long hard look at myself and my attitudes to reach the place I'm at today.

Since the Y2K election I've been angry and since 9/11/2001 I've been extremely angry.

My awakening has been a gradual process rather than some sudden insight. The same way the clouds slowly clear and you can eventually see the sun, so has it been with me. Now I can see the sun and its warmth is most welcome.

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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. "Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes..."
"Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend." -Robert A Heinlein

Great quote, I stole it for my signature
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Thanks for the compliment.....
I did however leave off the last part of the quote... It didn't seem appropriate to the sentiment I was trying to express.

Here is the whole thing:

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind, it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate--and quickly." -Robert A Heinlein

Hope this doesn't spoil it for you. :)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify that issue -- it is very important
Here are a couple of the articles that I was referring to:

Here is one where I suggest framing an issue in a frame that is more likely to get Republicans to listen to us:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5460956

And here is a plea to moderates and conservatives right before the November election:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2437571 (I also posted this on the Free Republic, where I was banned within seconds and was met with a vast array of insults.)

And here is one where I suggested that we allow conservatives to post on DU. Most DUers didn't much care for that idea:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2770454
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-19-07 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. The great divide is fueled by
Edited on Mon Mar-19-07 10:35 PM by mmonk
a different awareness of what's going on due to little or not much accurate information getting out into the public about what has happened since 9/11. Self proclaimed conservatives believe in an Alice in Wonderland alternate reality foisted through propaganda by those they have chosen to believe. The key will be for the truth to break through in order to lessen the divide enough for an informed public to make the right decisions going forward.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. You may have a good point there
but I wonder how much of the divide is lack of information vs. how much is due to people that care more about the things that Bush cares about than what we care about.

I look at it as something similar to what went on in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, though on a smaller scale -- for now. There were lots of people who had a good idea of what was going on, but they didn't want to think about it much. They may not have been rabidly anti-Semitic, like Hitler, but they found Hitler to be very charismatic, and as far as they were concerned, if he said it, it must be right, and they were willing to follow him like sheep.

In other words, I think that a lot of Republicans are like sheep. If so, as you say, a better national news media could help a lot in leading them in the right direction.
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live love laugh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
9. To say that there is a divide suggests equal halfs and that is not true,
In reality, there are the far right wing cons and there's the rest of America. The majority of people don't support the far right wing's anti-American goals.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. this country isn't divided at all
one of the biggest lies out there today...
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I plan on staying divided
Edited on Tue Mar-20-07 06:13 AM by mmonk
as long as political parties are loyal to groups and think tanks that are in conflict with the constitution and international norms and behaviors in general. The average citizen has shown in the last few years will blindly follow ideological heroes. I will share no common ground with them.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. I think there are four distinct parts
25% who care deeply and who are activists for the left

25% who are the same..except they are on the right

25% who can name every soap star and knows every Survivor winner, but only votes in presidential election (usually for the "cute one"

25% who don't vote, and don't care, and who probably think that Ghana is the capitol city of Canada..(if they even know there IS a Canada)
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
44. I think that's a little simplistic...
I would divide it up like this:

25% who care deeply and who are activists for the left

25% who are the same..except they are on the right

10% who can name every soap star and knows every Survivor winner, but only votes in presidential election (usually for the "cute one"

20% who don't vote, and don't care, and who probably think that Ghana is the capitol city of Canada..(if they even know there IS a Canada)

20% who don't vote because they feel neither of the major parties are honest, generally don't like politics in general.

You have to remember that we're lucky to get half the voting population to vote in presidential elections. In fact, voter participation is at a all time high, and it barely squeaks up to 60% of the voting population, that's just sad.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. The non voting portion of the electorate is closer to fifty percent.
Than twenty five percent.

I suspect that there are only about five to ten percent on either side who truly care about politics.

I find very few people in real life who are interested in talking politics.

Sports, TV shows, movies, celebrity goings on, the weather, sometimes the latest killing or kidnapping on the news. I'm sure there are other topics of conversation but that's what I hear the people around me talking about mostly when they're not discussing family matters or just plain old gossip.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
15. Nah, here's the real divide.
Those who want to live under a gov't where the people rule and those who wish to live under a King George. My advice to those who want to live under a King is to go back to fucking England. This is America.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. in regard to the u.s. declaration of independence and the u.s. constitution-
no, they were NOT written to say that ALL people have certain inalienable rights-

they were written to say that all white land-owning men have certain inalienable rights.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. That is not what the Declaration of Independence says
It says nothing at all about "white land-owning men". The unalienable rights that it refers to make no restrictions of that sort.

But in practice, the combination of our Constitution and the laws of our nation initially gave the vote only to white land owning men. That was, of course, changed over time, as our Constitution came to better reflect the principles stated in our Declaration of Independence.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. then why were there slaves?
Edited on Tue Mar-20-07 04:25 PM by QuestionAll
and why did the constitution have to be amended to give blacks 3/5 of a personhood, and then full personhood? and to give them and then women, the right to vote?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. The Declaration of Independence says nothing about slaves, and its principles were definitely
against slavery.

Slavery was present in this country long before our Declaration of Independence or our Constitution was written. And it would have continued if neither had been written. But slavery was allowed in our Constitution because the framers of the Constitution struck a compromise with the Southern planters who otherwise would not have jointed our country. In effect, the initial Constitution failed to live up to the principles of the Declaration of Independence because those who wrote it wanted the Southern states to join the Union.

But again, there is nothing in the Declaration of Independence that excuses slavery or says anything about it. I provided a link to the Declaration in my OP. Look at it, and tell me if you find anything about slavery in it.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. the reason it doesn't mention slavery-
is because when it says "all men are created equal", the people who wrote it knew that the socially accepted definiton of "men" at the time applied to all white land-owning men, NOT all "people" as you prefer to revise it. if they had meant "all people", then they would not have owned slaves or condoned the practice. they did both.

you might try reading a little howard zinn sometime.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Of course our Founding Fathers had many of the same human weaknesses that many of us have
I believe that if they had meant the Declaration to apply only to white land-owning men, it would have said so. Jefferson was the most important architect of the Declaration, and like many of the other signatories to the Declaration, while he owned slaves, he was also an opponent of slavery. I know that sounds inconsistent to many, and it is to some extent, but there is certainly lots of evidence that he meant the Declaration to apply to all people:

"During his long career in public office, Jefferson attempted numerous times to abolish or limit the advance of slavery"

from "Jefferson on Slavery", which talks in some detail about Jefferson's opposition to slavery.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. it DID say so...
Edited on Tue Mar-20-07 10:52 PM by QuestionAll
that's what was meant by the word "men" in polite society of the time.

but you're free to believe in whatever fairy tales make you feel good- just look at all the people who choose to believe in supreme beings, immortal souls, and an afterlife.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. The signers of any political document like the Declaration of
Independence have their own political views and definitions of key terms. Did many (most) believe that "men" meant white property-holding males? I would not be surprised. Were there none that believed the loftier definition that "men" meant all men and women? I doubt that, since such principles were publically discussed, if not universally agreed to at that time.

I imagine that 200 years from now people will look back on some of my beliefs and shake their heads at how narrow minded or bigoted I was in 2007. If I care more about the economic well-being of Americans than I do Brazilians, Indians, or Kenyans. (Perhaps national boundaries will no longer exist.) If I care primarily about the rights and prosperity of humans. (Perhaps whales have joined society as co-equal partners with humans.)


200 years is a long time. Many things evolve and grow (democracy, human rights) while others diminish or disappear (slavery, indentured servitude). Which things will evolve and which diminish in the next 200 years? None of us know, but I am sure that folks at that time will look back at us and shake their heads in wonderment at some of the things that we believe and practice today.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. The politics are divided, not the people
I don't think the average American is as politically divided as those in the political world believe.

I know many Bush voters who are really nice people, but when you listen to Fox News or other propoganda, your views will become distorted. I don't think the way to fight this is to add more fuel to the partisan politics. Just call out the republicans on their bullshit, and connect with middle America and the Democrats will be more successful. There are many Democrat senators and representatives from red states, so it can be done.
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. Common ground
Ask anyone what kind of place they want this country to be and I guarantee you that most people say that they want a nice place to live, make a decent wage, good schools for their kids, clean air to breathe, clean water to drink and freedom in their private lives. Guess what! Those are all critical tenets of the liberalism. When people talk about what they want on a non-partisan basis they become democrats.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Do you think that Republicans want those things for all people - or just for themselves?
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Americans want them for all people
Mostly the republicans in the government controlled by special interest are the ones who try to take them away. The rich 1% is only the 1% of the voting population so they don't represent everybody.

The reason that many vote republican is because of propoganda and wedge social issues which the republicans use to divide the American public. Adding to the division is just going to help the otherside.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. I'm sure it's true that many Republicans, as you say, are duped into voting Republican
I don't know how many, but I'm sure that it is quite a few.

I do not mean to add to the division. But at the same time, I believe that our elected Democratic representatives need to get real tough with the Bush administration. Impeachment would be a very good start.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. There is a difference between attacking the republicans
in congress and attacking the public who voted for them.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. True
I did feel somewhat uncomfortable with that last paragraph in my OP (See post # 5 in this thread).

I did refer specifically to the Republican Party in that paragraph, rather than individual Republicans, but I admit that it is somewhat ambiguous, and I should have worded it differently -- at least differently enough so that people wouldn't think that I was advocting abrogating the unalienable human rights of Republican individuals.

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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. RE: Do you think that Republicans want those things for all people - or just for themselves?
I think that only the most cold hearted Republicans don't care about having good schools, clean water, people not living in poverty. Most people, when partisanship is stripped away, want people to live a good life. Most Republicans I talk to anyway.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Interesting
If that really applies to most Republicans, then that suggests IMO that making them better informed would result in repeated Democratic landslides and great improvements for the lives of most Americans. I do hope that you are right and that we can find a way to make them better informed.
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. brilliant use of wedge issues
Maybe if we could stop talking about abortion, gay marriage, and prayer in schools we could spend time talking about improving public schools, weaning ourselves off fossil fuels, and creating health care for all while protecting small businesses.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I think that even more important
has been our national corporate news media -- i.e., their near total abdication of their obligation to keep Americans informed on the important issues of the day:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1784920
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
54. Hi Cant trust em!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. Disagree
Edited on Tue Mar-20-07 04:50 PM by BL611
There are NO exceptions, and once you justify an exception by saying that someone you disagree with is "beyond the pale" and that their views do not need to be respected within the context of a pluralist society, you are on a slippery slope to bad places. You think that they are "evil", as ideological conservatives think all Democrats are "evil" (and have many arguments on how everything from the New Deal to the income tax to Roe violates the constitution). You cite the PNAC document, but don't understand whats so wrong with it. The PNAC is not "evil" in some cartoon villain sense, they strongly believe (at least most of them) what they are doing is right and will lead to a better world. The problem is the moral righteousness of their grand theories which are ultimately based on a naive and utopian worldview (IMO a product of their Trotskyite origins). You however in this post commit the same sin of indulging your ego that they do. John Rawls (who quite honestly had alot more developed views on what constitutes liberalism than you appear to-no offense, there are not too many that wouldn't apply to) once wrote about how we are always prone to question the intentions of those we disagree with politically, as we believe that we are of completely pure intention (although of course we are not-none of us), and so therefore we conclude that those who disagree with us can only do so because their intentions are not pure. Again thats ego, not reason, not liberalism in any sense. Sorry.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I didn't say that I didn't believe that they should have the same Constitutional rights as we do
That's where I, and all liberals, differ very much from PNAC, and Bush and his supporters.

But still, I'm entitled to my opinion of them, and that doesn't make me a non-liberal.

It may be true that they think that we are evil. Does that make it wrong for us to think poorly of them? It's true that evil people project their evil to other people. But do you think that that means that we should therefore not believe that anyone is evil -- for fear that someone may accuse of of projecting our own evil?

You say that there are no exceptions? What about the Nazis? Is it wrong for us to say that they are evil? I don't think that I need a big ego to do that. I think that it is a very well supported belief. Yet, I believe that they should have rights -- like the right to a fair trial -- which I believe that many of them had.

I also believe that Bush, Cheney, and others should be tried for war crimes. I wouldn't recommend treating them like they treat their prisoners. Rather, I would recommend that they have a fair trial. Is that wrong?
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. If you wish to know how hard core Bush supporters "think"
Then I suggest that you read _The Authoritarians_ by Dr Bob Altemeyer.

It's an online book in PDF format, it is available for free and Dr Bob (as he calls himself) has no problems with it being printed or copied and passed around as you see fit.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

OK, what’s this book about? It’s about what’s happened to the American government lately. It’s about the disastrous decisions that government has made. It’s about the corruption that rotted the Congress. It’s about how traditional conservatism has nearly been destroyed by authoritarianism. It’s about how the “Religious Right” teamed up with amoral authoritarian leaders to push its un-democratic agenda onto the country. It’s about the United States standing at the crossroads as the next federal election approaches.

“Well,” you might be thinking, “I don’t believe any of this is true.” Or maybe you’re thinking, “What else is new? I’ve believed this for years.” Why should a conservative, moderate, or liberal bother with this book? Why should any Republican, Independent, or Democrat click the “Introduction” link on this page?

Because if you do, you’ll begin an easy-ride journey through some relevant scientific studies I have done on authoritarian personalities--one that will take you a heck of a lot less time than the decades it took me. Those studies have a direct bearing on all the topics mentioned above. So if you think the first paragraph is a lot of hokum, or full of half-truths, I invite you to look at the research.

For example, take the following statement: “Once our government leaders and the authorities condemn the dangerous elements in our society, it will be the duty of every patriotic citizen to help stomp out the rot that is poisoning our country from within.” Sounds like something Hitler would say, right? Want to guess how many politicians, how many lawmakers in the United States agreed with it? Want to guess what they had in common?

Or how about a government program that persecutes political parties, or minorities, or journalists the authorities do not like, by putting them in jail, even torturing and killing them. Nobody would approve of that, right? Guess again.

Don’t think for a minute this doesn’t concern you personally. Let me ask you, as we’re passing the time here, how many ordinary people do you think an evil authority would have to order to kill you before he found someone who would, unjustly, out of sheer obedience, just because the authority said to? What sort of person is most likely to follow such an order? What kind of official is most likely to give that order, if it suited his purposes? Look at what experiments tell us, as I did.

If, on the other hand, you’re way ahead of me, and believe the extreme right-wing elements in America are poised to take it over, permanently, I think you can still get a lot from this book. The studies explain so much about these people. Yes, the research shows they are very aggressive, but why are they so hostile? Yes, experiments show they are almost totally uninfluenced by reasoning and evidence, but why are they so dogmatic? Yes, studies show the Religious Right has more than its fair share of hypocrites, from top to bottom; but why are they two-faced, and how come one face never notices the other? Yes, their leaders can give the flimsiest of excuses and even outright lies about things they’ve done wrong, but why do the rank-and-file believe them? What happens when authoritarian followers find the authoritarian leaders they crave and start marching together?

I think you’ll find this book “explains a lot.” Many scattered impressions about the enemies of freedom and equality become solidified by science and coherently connected here.

You think I’m pulling your leg? Push the button.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. I haven't read that, but I did read John Dean's "Conservatives without Consciences"
The two books sound a lot alike.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Dean's book was based on _The Authoritarians_
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #36
56. Where in the PNAC document
does it say you should not have constitutional rights? Again anyone who disagrees with anyone will be tempted to call them evil, it is the first (and most major) process in dehumanization that leads to things like Nazism. Thats the exception, when a person is willing to dehumanize other people based on some political or religious belief, ethnicity, etc. The Neo cons may be wrong, but to compare them to Nazis is way over the top. Again you don't really seem to have a strong enough understanding of conservatism, or even neo conservatism (or fascism for that matter) to be passing the type of judgments on them that you are. Its very easy when you don't understand something to call it evil. When you see where people are coming from and give their beliefs an honest look, you're much less prone to call them evil (same goes for people on the right and the left). That doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, or not think that their misguided, or not think that the consequences of their actions has caused great human misery, but its about understanding that because you disagree with them they are not necessarily nazi's or fascists, just like Democrats are not Communists.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. The members of PNAC
They advocate the invasion of other countries in order to advance "American interests". That is a war crime. That's not my opinion, it's international law. You don't think that's evil? Why do you think it's over the top to call that evil?
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kdpeters Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
49. I really do HATE this type of argument
Not a single one of "them" interviewed for the entire article but somehow we have them all figured out;. I really do hate that.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-20-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. So what you're saying is that
In order for me to know what the agenda of the Republican Party is I need to interview them?
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