"I was spanked as a child, and I turned out to be a pretty damn good person." RE: Illegalizing spank

[The Cleaner]

I heard on the news this morning about a court in CA that is considering a case that would make spanking illegal. Not sure the details.

I used to be on the side of pro-spanking. As a child I was spanked. And I do feel that in some ways, maybe lack of spanking has led to some disciplinary problems with children these days.

But now, while I don't scowl at parents who spank, I am open to new ways of dealing with children, including positive reinforcement and rewards. "The nanny" TV show is a good example. Punishment is the "naughty corner."

I do get upset though when I see a parent quite obviously getting out of control and spanking the child hard, and repeatedly, out of frustration. That to me is violent. You can always tell when it gets violent.

What do you think? Should spanking be made illegal?

[LostinVA]

1. Uh oh

It's a bit early for popcorn, but what the hell.


:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[qanda]

2. Hey LostinVA

Are you sharing?

[LostinVA]

4. Yup, I made plenty -- here you go

Need some salt?

[Goblinmonger]

143. I know I'm late

but you got any left?

I'm really wondering what all this has to do with global warming?

[Midlodemocrat]

153. BWAHAHAHAHA

:yourock:

[Lord Byron]

3. My parents used corporal punishment

I turned out very obedient and became "intellectualized" at an early age. However, some kids get psychological problems from it. That said, I've seen how many white Americans (my parents aren't American btw) raise their children with the "go to your room and stare at the wall" punishment, and I can't help but think it's ridiculous. A family is kind of like a dictatorship. The children must obey the parents because the parents are wise, experienced, and are genuinely concerned with raising good children. The problem is when we have deranged drunk psychopaths physically abusing the children.

Should we make spanking illegal? No. Don't tell parents how to raise their children.

[BeliQueen]

5. No, but...

it would be a good idea to have people who want to become parents attend classes on discipline and child rearing to receive a license to procreate or raise a child.

I know it sounds a bit too much like "big brother" but you have to have a license to own a dog, why not a child?

[NNN0LHI]

6. I never beat on my kids and they turned out just fine n/t

[byronius]

7. I have two children, never spanked, EVER.

Straight A's, gracious, kind, and wise. It's not only unnecessary, it's a stress that is stored as muscle memory in the adult. I was moderately spanked as a child, and bear a deep grudge. My parents were quite sick about it though, the way they approached it.

It's what impatient, weak, parents do. I don't care what anyone else says. The standard issue line about 'I'm a damn good person' always masks something, and reads to me '-- in spite of being spanked.'

I've got a big chip on my shoulder about this. I do not consider it civilized behavior.

[Lord Byron]

9. Brother Byronius

Perhaps you are blessed with obedient children. But if a child refuses to submit to the authority of the mother or father, than what can be done?

[LostinVA]

13. "refuses to submit "

Oh boy.

[Igel]

132. My son refused to submit.

I picked him up and spanked him; we were on the sidewalk in front of our apartment building.

He was 3 feet tall, this was when he was maybe 2;8. He was running ahead of me and I told him to stop and come back; he always had before. This time he laughed and ran; such is the nature of independence when you're two. He ran between cars, cars that were taller than he was, and into the driveway; if any of the kids in the one-bedroom units had been driving past at their usual 20-25 mph (or greater), they'd have killed him and not been responsible for his death--I would have been. I ran, caught him, carried him to the sidewalk, told him never to do it again, and spanked him. That night, the following morning, the following night, etc., etc., I reminded him that I spanked him, and told him why he was spanked. My wife was outraged--she said her parents *never* spanked her--but admitted he'd been doing that to her, as well, and she was afraid.

A few days later he was again running ahead of my wife and me as we headed to the car. I yelled at him to stop as he ran between the cars. He did, and turned. Then he heard a SUV roar past him, 3 feet behind his back. The driver never knew he was there. My kid hadn't finished turning to see where the sound came from when a second SUV roared past. My wife ran and hugged him.

He understood. He submitted.

My wife told this to her mother, her completely non-spanking mother said spanking was justified. In a very few such cases she also spanked her kids, but my wife was simply too young at the time to remember.

[slackmaster]

140. Maybe you should have put a leash on him

Then you'd REALLY be in trouble in this discussion.

:hide:

[Midlodemocrat]

154. LOL. I used those things when my two oldest were toddlers

at Disney and sometimes other places. I don't have a problem with those things at all and they don't even remember me using them.

[byronius]

23. Ah - wrong question.

'But if a child refuses to cooperate with the mother or father, then what are the parents doing wrong?'

Nice username. Got kids?

[Lord Byron]

28. No kids

Must finish studies first.

[Igel]

135. Sometimes nothing.

Unless not sheltering the kid from every possible risk is wrong.

But that sometimes requires abuse of a different kind.

[Midlodemocrat]

24. Children aren't born obedient, if that is what you are saying.

And, children shouldn't be beaten. It's against the law to beat your dog, it should be against the law to beat your kids.

And, yes, spanking is beating.

[JacksonWest]

35. Spanking isn't beating. Let's try and remain intellectually honest here.

Spanking isn't done to hurt the child out of malice, and spanking causes no injury. There is a distinction-a clear one-between spanking and beating.

Spanking will have effects, just like anything else you do to a child. It isn't abuse, but it can cross that line-obviously. But if a two year old child bites you, a swift swat on the bottom and saying "no" can often be the best stimuli to prevent them from biting again.

Regardless, spanking does have consequences that I wouldn't want to see develop in my own children. So I wouldn't spank. However, I have no kids. It's easy for me to say I wouldn't do something.

[Midlodemocrat]

46. Spanking is done to hurt the child, that's the entire point of it.

Otherwise, there's no 'lesson'. And, the effect is that it makes a child angry at his/her situation, maybe not forever, but nonetheless, it does.

There are much better ways to get a child to be compliant. I think the OP is correct in that those SuperNanny shows are correct. When you see the most out of control children, you see a lot of violent behavior in the home. Spanking, yelling, pushing, etc.

[JacksonWest]

53. If you pinch someone to get their attention, one time, are you beating them?

It hurts, yes. Spanking will hurt, but it isn't designed to injure. If done properly. It's best use is on toddlers, who don't have the perception to appreciate time outs. I used a biting example in an earlier post. Apparently, that was the only time I was spanked, as a child. My dad was holding me, I bit him, and he spanked me and said no. I never bit anyone again.

I have no memory of this, and my Dad isn't a physical guy. It doesn't seem unreasonable what happened, not does it seem like it should be illegal.

[Midlodemocrat]

56. No, but why would an adult do that?

I'm not impugning your father, but I am at a loss as to understand why an adult would intentionally inflict harm on a smaller person?

My son had the potential to be a biter. I put him in time out on the stairs twice and kept repeating, no biting, no biting.

He stopped.

[JacksonWest]

66. That 's cool.

I don't have kids, I'm not going to tell anyone how to raise them. I was just browsing this thread and the comparison-or equation-of spanking with beating just seemed ridiculous.

As far as my father, he inflicted harm on me to prevent me from biting him or other people. It was a swat with one hand-I'm sure I was wearing a diaper- and that was it. As far as permanent harm, there's a crack in my ass currently, but I think it was always there.

I agree with you that spanking a child is something that I wouldn't want to do. I don't see why it should be illegal though. It doesn't warrant state intervention in my opinion. we can disagree on that, but it seems like reasonable people can draw a distinction between a beating and a spanking. Equating the two seems dishonest.

[treestar]

108. Exactly, that took patience

I have seen people in action - where the child is not doing what they want and they patiently repeat over and over, without raising their voice, what they want the child to do, and eventually, child does it. Good parents in action.

The other kind just don't have patience and so they resort to yelling or spanking. That's just impulsive behavior on the part of the parent.

[Igel]

142. You're confusing inflicting harm and inflicting pain.

There's a difference. My father inflicted pain on me from time to time by spanking; I learned what he wanted me to do--things like not staying out till long after dark in woods that teenagers on drugs and alcohol frequented when you're 7 or 8 years old. My mother never once raised her hand to cause pain. My mother inflicted harm by ridicule and by witholding affection.

Thank you, I'll take the occasional spanking. My father's a decent guy, and I'll miss him when he's gone. My mother's a ... well, let's not go there.

I also give the infrequent spanking, and the not-too-frequent hand slap. My wife always disapproved. The disapproval vanished when he reached up to pull a pot of hot something (soup?) off the stove, my wife said to stop, and he ignored her. Perhaps she was wrong--she had stirred the stuff and not repositioned the handle--and in a perfect, ideal world he'd never have had that opportunity. In the imperfect world he lived in, however, slapping his hand was far better than letting him scald his face and chest.

If my toddler is a person deserving of full rights and responsibilities, the whole gamut of human dignity and respect, I say give him a driver's license, the franchise, and let him buy and sell alcohol.

[Midlodemocrat]

155. Um.

If my toddler is a person deserving of full rights and responsibilities, the whole gamut of human dignity and respect, I say give him a driver's license, the franchise, and let him buy and sell alcohol.


I don't have any response to that, other than Wow.

[slackmaster]

60. Striking to hurt is beating, not spanking

The purpose of a lawful spanking is to humiliate, not to cause pain.

[Midlodemocrat]

62. Which is equally bad, if not worse.

Why would an adult intentionally humiliate their own child? What kind of thought process produces that kind of logic?

Aren't we supposed to protect our children?

[slackmaster]

65. Children who are operating at a primitive level don't listen to reason

Aren't we supposed to protect our children?

Yes, that's the whole point. Spanking should only be done to stop a child from doing something dangerous, when nothing else works.

[Midlodemocrat]

70. I must confess, in over 25 years of practicing psychotherapy on

children and adults, I have yet to see a child who operates at a 'primitive level'. Dogs, yes. Cats even. But not a child.

Tabula Rasa.

[slackmaster]

76. Oh, then I guess nobody else's opinions or observations count

:hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

81. That's not what I said.

I was responding to your 'primitive' comment.

[JacksonWest]

82. The same thought process that is behind any punishment.

Parents disciple kids, as do teachers, to make them better people and to protect them. Sometimes humiliation is used. You can disagree with it, but the thought process seems pretty easy to identify.

[Midlodemocrat]

84. I cannot fathom using humiliation to get my way.

I simply cannot.

[JacksonWest]

102. Clearly you didn't go to Catholic school.

I remember teachers drawing circles on the chalk board, and making kids put their noses in them for an entire class. The object was to humiliate them-to make them act appropriately.

My parents-not so much. Nothing intentional.

[Midlodemocrat]

106. LOL. Actually, I did.

And, I taught in one as well while in grad school.

[JacksonWest]

120. Clearly I went to a much crappier Catholic school.

You're not a nun are you?

[Midlodemocrat]

123. LOL. NO WAY.

That whole 'poverty' thing was a dealbreaker.

I'm married wtih three kids. I am a practicing Catholic, however.

[JacksonWest]

129. Good for you.

The whole chastity thing isn't much fun either.

[NashVegas]

204. Physical Punishment, Humiliation, Never Made Anyone a Better Person

Merely a more manageable one.

[treestar]

117. IA, that is actually worse than hurting them physically

Spanking never hurts physically (unless it goes that far, when it is abusive rather than discipline) but a child can get injured or hurt or be sick, and that experience may be bad in its way, but it's nothing like the damage caused by humiliation. If anything, that will produce rebels rather than responsible adults.

[RC Quake]

72. Spanking isn't meant to hurt the child in most cases

It's meant to embarrass and humiliate. It works. Everything in moderation can.

[Midlodemocrat]

74. See post #62.

[RC Quake]

91. I would have rather had a spanking

then what my mother used to do. When we needed discipline, she would stop talking to us and cry. That did more damage to us than a little spanking. Trust me.

[Midlodemocrat]

109. That is emotional abuse, though.

[RC Quake]

160. Oh, I guess emotional abuse is okay then, huh

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

166. Yeah, that's what I said.

Read the thread.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

107. Humiliating a child IS hurting them

[slackmaster]

141. A LITTLE humility never hurt anyone

We all need it sometimes.

[Midlodemocrat]

157. Humbling and humiliating are two different things.

I was very humbled on this board during the fundraiser by some of the posts I read, it didn't, however, humiliate or embarrass me.

[Igel]

147. I intend it to be pain,

with the implied threat of further pain.

Humliation? No.

Embarrassment? No.

Just pain, and the resulting pain avoidance. My young child knows a slap is a small bit of pain that causes no physical injury, and if he continues it will escalate, depending on exactly what's appopriate. Time out on the sofa or his room, revoking some privilege for the day, no desert, or a spanking.

I haven't slapped or spanked him for quite a while. "Do you want your hand slapped?" is sufficient to compel obedience, when compelled obedience is required.

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. It was in my family. Both my brother and I were beaten. No way could

those beatings ever be described as spankings. Nice try, though.

[JacksonWest]

77. So those were not spankings, right?

Once it crosses that line, it's no longer spanking-it's beating.

And I'm sorry to hear that.

[SammyWinstonJack]

240. Well supposedly it was spanking. The authorities at the time would have

declared it too be a spanking.

[LostinVA]

37. Thank you -- spanking is beating

Although so many DUers and people I know IRL try to differentiate between the two.


**Midlo has kids, and is a profession which makes her opinion on this valuable, imo.

[slackmaster]

38. If spanking is beating

Then the person doing the spanking isn't doing it right, and would be violating the law already in place in California.

[JacksonWest]

47. The two words mean entirely different things.

They have different definitions and connotations. I can understand if you're against spanking-but why make a case against it that relies on spinning semantics and offering misleading definitions? If you have a valid point, make it with logic and facts. Don't tell me that spanking a child is synonymous with beating a child. It is an impossibility based on the meaning of the words, and the law. You could argue that spanking is abusive- but that doesn't connote beating a child. Calling a child fat or stupid is abusive-but it isn't a "beating".

As it is, if beating and spanking are the same thing-why are they making a law against spanking? It would be covered under laws that forbid child abuse-or beating a child-already.

[LostinVA]

114. Spanking is beating -- it is physical assault

I'm not "spinning semantics."

[JacksonWest]

130. Physical assault, beating...no you're not spinning.

It's an open hand slap on the buttocks. Call it whatever you want. You know I'm right.

[Igel]

150. Giving a child a bath when she doesn't want it

is also assault.

If you don't think so, try it with a randomly chosen person on the street: Stop them, pull off their clothing, and then rub soap and a rag all over his (or her) body as they're struggling to stop you and shouting for the police. (OK, just rule out the occasional person who might enjoy it.)

But it still doesn't rate as a beating.

[SammyWinstonJack]

50. Nothing too be done but beat the living daylights out of him/her, then.

:sarcasm: major :sarcasm:

:eyes: submit :eyes:

My stepmonster use to love to beat the crap out of my brother, to the point where he bled and she wasn't shy about using a belt on me either. These beatings were for little things, trust me and certainly didn't call for the level of violence she used. Needless to say, those beatings cause long term mental anguish for us both.

Oh and btw, she never laid a hand on her own daughters, no matter what they did or didn't do.

[Midlodemocrat]

61. OMG. That absolutely breaks my heart.

I'm so sorry you and your brother went through that. :cry:

[treestar]

100. You lack any imagination for anything other than spanking?

It's not the only possible response.

[LostinVA]

12. I could have written your post, except it was just my father who spanked us

My mom never did. I'm 42, and had a very bad relationship with him until I was in my 30's. My mother disciplined us, but it wasn't physically or mentally abusive.

My sister has also raised her kids without any spanking, and they are both teenagers exactly like your own children. I do it strange that if I spanked an adult anywhere but in the bedroom, I could be arrested. Same thing if I spanked another person's child. Yet, someone is allowed to spank their own kids, and often be lauded as a good parent.

Should it be illegal? I'm on the fence about that. Do I think spanking's a good idea? No, I don't.

Okay, I passed the popcorn first, but had to get in my dollar's worth. Now, where the hell is the salt?!

[Midlodemocrat]

21. I have three, and if I say so myself, they are all amazing.

And, they were never spanked. They're all good students, good athletes, nice to be around.

And, most importantly, they have a firm belief in doing for others. Social justice and all that.

I got them to behave through talking and discussing, not beating them.

[slackmaster]

36. You're lucky you never had a child who was COMPLETELY out of control

We are primates, and with some children sometimes it becomes necessary to enforce dominance.

The proper purpose of a spanking is not to cause pain - It's to humiliate the child just enough to bring him or her into submission.

That said, I applaud you for breaking the apparently pathological cycle in your family.

[Midlodemocrat]

64. How did the child get so out of control?

Are you speaking from experience? Or is this just conjecture?

[slackmaster]

71. I've never had one, but I have observed them

Here's a link to the chapter of the California Penal Code that covers all forms of child abuse and neglect:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=11001-12000&file=11164-11174.3

Please go over it, then say whether or not you think it provides a clear enough definition of what constitutes harmful corporal punishment.

[Midlodemocrat]

80. I have observed them as well

and in my practice, it was usually the adult whose behavior was to blame, not the child.

Of course, this doesn't include those children with chemical imbalances, but that's a whole different thread.

I will read your link when I get a moment, thank you for posting it.

[LostinVA]

118. Just like Suppernanny says -- I love Jo-Jo

[slackmaster]

230. It's never happened to me, thank God.

I've seen a few and yes, there is always some way to attribute it to a failure of the parent(s). They're too preoccupied with their jobs, drug or alcohol abusers, or just plain immature and selfish.

I've known a single mom who had a small boy that broke everything in sight no matter what she did. She had no clue what to do. She had a history of making bad choices, one of which, IMO, was having and raising a child by herself on welfare. Her choice of a sperm doner was particularly awful. She was not up to the task.

[Breeze54]

167. I hope you don't have any kids.

[slackmaster]

188. I served as as step-parent for 12 years, with no spanking

:hi:

[Breeze54]

189. Wow!

and I'll bet you have 'nice' kids too! :rofl:

NOT!!!

[slackmaster]

190. He grew up just fine

Not rude like you.

[Breeze54]

193. Rude like me?

You're doing the nasty name calling, slackmaster!!

You must have been a great role model. :sarcasm:

[slackmaster]

195. Says the person who posted "I hope you don't have any kids."

If that's not a nasty fucking personal attack, I don't know what would be.

[Breeze54]

200. How is that rude?

You're saying that spanking is okay sometimes. I disagree.

I say it isn't okay and it's used by angry parents who have no control of their temper.

[slackmaster]

203. How is it NOT rude?

:crazy:

You're saying that spanking is okay sometimes.

I am saying the .gov shouldn't ban it.

I also said I am not a spanker. In fact, my ex-wife and I had a non-spanking pact.

[Breeze54]

205. Spanking and losing your temper on kids is rude.

You're the one who told me to "Bite you"....

That's rude!! (Despite the fact you edited it out!)

[slackmaster]

206. Yes, it was rude

Which is why I edited it out 30 seconds after posting it.

But not nearly as rude as saying you hope I don't have children. That's beyond rude. It's authoritarian and condescending.

[Breeze54]

213. So was your statement above.

I was thinking of your kids. Tough if you don't like my opinion.

You wrote:

"The proper purpose of a spanking is not to cause pain - It's to humiliate the child"

OMG!! Hitting them isn't bad enough! You also want to humiliate them!!!


:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[slackmaster]

215. If only anti-spanking Nazis had children,

Then every child's mommy and daddy would be an anti-spanking Nazi.

But since the alleged bill hasn't been published anywhere, neither you nor I, nor anyone else, has even seen how it would define "spanking", this whole discussion seems rather retarded.

Clearly there is a range of what people consider the word to mean.

[Breeze54]

223. This 'anti-spanking' bill is as old as the hills.

And legislation has been introduced many, many times over the years.

It's unenforceble, mostly. JMO.

[Solon]

196. If children are actually that completely out of control...

it indicates some problem, abuse in the past, mental problems or chemical imbalances, etc. In cases like that, enforcing DOMINANCE will most likely backfire. Treatment, drugs in some rare cases, etc. are what needed, not overbearing parents.

[tavalon]

45. Yeah

Why is it considered acceptable to spank a minor but not to beat up on one another as adults? Is it because they are defenseless, perhaps? Or is it because they are out of control (if it's that, then perhaps we should spank adults with bipolar - they're out of control some of the time)?

I do believe it is really just children beating up on other children but the ones doing the beating up are just in bigger, adult looking skins. I think hitting another is the refuge of a child, no matter how old that "child" may be.

And lastly, I have learned as a parent that time out isn't just for kids. I have put myself in it sometimes and have requested that my partner do it sometimes too.

[LostinVA]

119. GREAT post!

[northzax]

156. well, let's see

there are all sorts of things adults can do to children that adults can't do to eachother. for instance, my mother used to make me eat spinach. I am now 6'5" 230 pounds, I dare you to try and make me eat spinach. I dare you to make me take a bath, or take a 'time-out' or whatever other crazy things people do now.

so if everything that you cannot force an adult to do is abuse when done to a child, then there's a lot of abuse going on.

see how your arguement is simply silly?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

8. And... GO!

:popcorn:

[madokie]

10. my observation is if a parent will teach their child the difference between whats acceptable and

whats not at an early age, from the get go, there will be no discipline problems later. I am from a large family with lots of nieces and nephews and many different ways to raise a child and that is what I am basing my thoughts on. those early on days in a childs life is important in this

I was disciplined by spanking as a child and I see no lingering problems with that, for the record.

[slackmaster]

11. Link to discussion about this in the California forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=141&topic_id=26357&mesg_id=26357

[northzax]

14. the point is that anecdotal evidence is useless

in a discussion like this. Everyone on this board was either spanked or not spanked, and has a story to tell about how it did or did not affect them as adults.

person a says their parents were too strict, person b says their parents were too light on discipline. (in fact, my sister and I disagree about our own parents, and we lived through the exact same thing, so how can anecdotal evidence prove anything between strangers?)

there are two things, however, you will never see on this thread:

1: parents who say, "I never spanked my kids, and they grew up to be holy terrors, homicidal maniacs, really. I regret not spanking them. Boy are they lazy, useless layabouts, I should have spanked them more."

2: Parents who say, "I spank my kids and they fight everytime they get angry."

so it's a ridiculous discussion to ever have.

[Bill McBlueState]

33. I think you win the thread.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't count in any other venue; why would it count here?

This is a problem that can be approached by gathering good data and analyzing it, just like any other.

[Igel]

168. I agree.

But good data is damned hard to come by. It means controlling for parenting styles, situation, different definitions of 'spanking', for child temperament and both age and maturity. You'd have to have examine a lot of conditions--styles x situations x definitions x temperaments x ages/maturity.

But there's the rub: definitions of spanking vary arbitrarily, classification of parenting styles and child temperament vary, gauging maturity is hardly scientific, and the situations where different parents think spankings are appropriate vary. Even if one researcher examines 20 conditions, those 20 may not match any of the conditions posited by any other researcher.

As for anecdotes, they're useful in lots of ways; a lot of research starts as musing about anecdotal information. But anecdotes as such prove very few positive assertions. But they're great at disproving absolutes.

Saying "spanking emotionally harms children" may be true in a statistical sense, given specific definitions of 'spanking' and 'harm', but it's unlikely to be more than a statistical generalization. People forget this, and assume it's an absolute, and nobody much cares about the definitions. A single anecdote can serve as a counterexample, forcing the statistical nature of the claim into the foreground and falsifying the assumption that it's an absolute--even though anecdotes (unless of such a nature and quantity that they're data) can't show the truth of a proposition. A number of anecdotes can force attention back to what the generalization properly covers, so we look at the definitions embedded in the generalization.

[Dorian Gray]

54. Exactly!

Good points....

[Telly Savalas]

87. But don't you support their underlying logic?

"I was subjected to _______ as a child" and "I am a good person" implies "______ is a good practice".

Makes sense to me.


Let's fill in the blanks:

"I was subjected to spanking as a child" and "I am a good person" implies "spanking is a good practice".

Works for me.


"I was subjected to sexual abuse as a child" and "I am a good person" implies "sexual abuse is a good practice".


Um...

[northzax]

121. just remember

there are as many people who say "I wasn't spanked, and I am a good person" as there are the opposite. they are both fallacious reasoning to apply to the general public.

[MissB]

15. I think this guy may need a spanking.

http://www.katu.com/news/5364616.html

NORTH BONNEVILLE, Wash. - A man accused of using a stun gun on a 79-year-old relative told KATU News Thursday he's not sorry about the incident.

Aaron deBruyn, 26, is accused of using a Taser on his wife's grandmother Wednesday morning after he got into a fight with her regarding the spanking of his infant son.

His wife, Caroline deBruyn, said the grandmother, Rosemary Garlock, asked her and her husband not to spank the child. She said the grandmother was asked to leave the apartment but refused so her husband used the Taser on her while the elderly woman sat on the couch

[LostinVA]

19. And, an INFANT doesn't need spanking, even though sickos teach it

Fucking child abusers. They should be jailed.

Any man that would Taser an elderly woman is a sick pup. And yet he is allowed to do whatever the hell he calls "spanking."

I'm off the fence. Make it illegal.

[MissB]

22. Yep.

:bounce:

[Rowdyboy]

16. Children, like rugs, should be beaten regularly......

:evilgrin:

Seriously, I don't have kids so it doesn't directly concern me. Personally, I'm content to leave decisions on discipline to the individual parent as they know their child best. One single approach to discipline does NOT fit all children.

And I'm one of those who "was spanked and turned out pretty well anyway". Most southern adults of my generation I know were spanked.

[wicket]

18. "I'm content to leave decisions on discipline to the individual parent as they know their child"

Amen to that. :hi:

[porphyrian]

17. No. Child abuse is already illegal.

If a spanking constitutes child abuse, the spanker should be charged with that. Otherwise, we shouldn't punish parents for raising their children.

[aikoaiko]

20. In general, I think spanking has its place in the continuum of punishment

Of course, spanking can be used excessively and abusively, but then again so can time outs when you put your child in a dark empty closet for 5 hours.

I do remember reading some research as a graduate student about a moderate positive correlation between more spanking and more aggressive acts from the child, but cause and effect are impossible to establish. I think the researcher was Murray Strauss from UNH.

Plus, making spanking illegal discriminates against the S&M crowd.

[Midlodemocrat]

26. That isn't a time out, it's imprisonment.

and unfortunately, those most likely to do that will also beat their kids.

I know some fine parents who did the whole 'pop on the diaper' thing, but in general, I don't think it is an appropriate child rearing practice.

[aikoaiko]

39. I agree, it is imprisonment, but only because of the extreme nature of the act

I think the same is true of spanking, in general.

[Midlodemocrat]

49. I have never treated a child in therapy who was spanked who

wouldn't have been compliant if some other mode of discipline was used.

My own children are 16,14, and 10. Do they do stupid stuff? Of course they do, they're kids. But, my husband and I have made a pact to talk to them, and not yell. And, we never spanked. Time out worked very well.

[aikoaiko]

99. Maybe.

You have no idea if a child would have been compliant or not. Your psychology-fu is not that strong.

[Midlodemocrat]

104. I don't understand your second sentence.

What do you mean?

And, what I meant is that I worked with the families in question to devise alterior manners of discipline to stop the beatings and it worked.

[aikoaiko]

113. You're telling me that after working with you a child has never been noncompliant

with alternative means? Never?

[Midlodemocrat]

Not to my knowledge.

As a mandatory reporter, I had to report the abuse to social services and the police. And, as part of the 'sentence' an alternative means of discipline was a necessity.

The parents were under court order to halt the physical abuse and the children didn't want their families destroyed, so the families and I worked together.

Except in extremely rare incidences, I always treated the families along with the kid. Mainly because I believe that when a person gets into therapy and closes the door, they can essentially get the therapist to believe anything they say because there is not way of verifying.

It's essential to get both sides of a situation in order to fairly assess what is going on.

[ShortnFiery]

25. On a personal level, I'm glad I opted out on corporal punishment

And it's a good thing because my pre-teen daughter is working toward her second degree black belt. Further, six months ago, my husband, goofing around, made the mistake of sparring with her without chest protection and she cracked one of his ribs. :wow: That humbled the old retired jarhead a peg or two. :rofl:

However, I can understand a smack on the bottom in public (LIGHT and not when your pissed) to mostly embarrass them. When my little, at times "terror" started acted-up with screaming and crying, I would walk her out of the store immediate and return after my husband came home in the evening. Oh yeah, it used every ounce of strength to walk out of a store with my screaming child so I understand how it may be very very VERY tempting to spank in public. But like coercive interrogation, such tactics have been showed by social science to "very rarely" work. If they do work, it's in the short term and does not model MATURE behavior, i.e., the strongest and meanest MF in the FAMILY rules. :shrug:

I don't judge parents harshly who mainly tap fingers or lightly slap bottoms in store in order to embarrass a young child into behaving. I understand that not EVERYONE is blessed with the time or convenience of being a stay at home mom. Yes, I was blessed but I don't judge those who just tap to embarrass the little naughty behaving kids in order to get control. We're all wired differently. :shrug:

BTW, for those folks who think it's OK to use switches, paddles and belts on your older children, before you act please remember: They may the only ones available to care for you in your old age. The old adage, "What goes around, comes around" is apt in this regard. :evilgrin:

[JackRiddler]

42. I confess! I spanked!

Judge, I was spanked a lot more than I ended up spanking, if that's a mitigating circumstance. And I ended up a mess, but I don't think it was due to spanking.

Examples of spankings I've given:

1) Child of two attempted to climb over edge of balcony. I did not even consider explaining in words why this was bad! Oh lord, forgive me.

2) Woke up to see child holding a rock over my head, thinking it would be funny to hit me with it (following a game of ball-throwing the day before). Why didn't I have the patience to explain, with equations, the relative densities of rocks and balls?

3) Child hit smaller child for like, the fourth time. Employed spanking explicitly as demonstration of what it feels like. No recidivism since.

How does the jury find?

[Bucky]

58. I got spanked. It didn't damage me. It taught me boundaries.

It's a quick, if inferior, teaching technique. Reasoning is always better, but a pop is an attention-getter that is very easily overused and abused. By the age of 12 if you're still using corporal punishment, you're doing something wrong and the pops are counterproductive.

[JackRiddler]

211. First off...

Past the age of six, I figure, if you're using spanking, you're having communication problems.

What you say about boundaries is interesting. Before having a child, I thought I would never spank. The experience of being the giant who literally assaults a much smaller being (also known as dressing the child against his or her will) made me realize that routine activities seen as harmless and necessary are a lot more radical and physically punishing than the supposed horror of spanking. What is spanking, compared to the enforced cleaning and application of creams to an unwilling child's asscrack, him fighting you tooth and nail? (And don't tell me there's always a way to negotiate with a child on this - real parents know that overcoming the resistance to such simple seeming procedures can take HOURS.)

When we say spanking, by the way, I mean it very literally: hand slapping gluteus maximus, five to ten times, just hard enough so that the child perceives it as pain.

Children need to explore boundaries and have them defined for them; one of these is physical. I vividly remember the time my son spent the whole day yearning to find out what would finally get me to spank him. And that I finally did so brought him a sense of relief, place in the universe, and genuine calm. The latter not through intimidation, but simply because he understood what the limit of tolerable provocation was. We've talked about it since and he can verbalize this point.

[ShortnFiery]

63. Innocent! Only perfect parents should throw stones at those who are

doing their best to cope with many life stressors and raise a healthy child.

My mother spanked the hell out of me and to this day we are not close. :(

No, I have to pray often and literally force myself to call her. When I was a small child anything would serve as "a tool" (wooden spoons, hair brush, fly swatter) but her favorite *power play* was the act of slowly walking outside and stripping a ripe willow branch from our tree before "the games were to begin. :( Although she was barely five foot tall I lived in fear of this woman until I was twelve when I gleaned enough courage to grab the belt out of her hands and screamed, "What are you going to do now!"

I love my mom today but we are not close. I guess that's why I did not spank my daughter. She'll soon be 13 and we are very close, i.e., albeit I still am "the mom."

No way could I judge you harshly because I do not know all the stresses in your life at the time and it was only out of love, not a pastime or measure of entertainment.

I may have not spanked but I've said some things "in anger" that I wish I would not have said. And emotional wrongs can sometimes be as painful. Nope I'm also imperfect. Seems like you truly cared and harbored no ill will, that's what's important. ;) :hi:

[AnneD]

209. I too have used that tool on occasion,

She was spanked on these occasions (1-3 swats depending on infraction and no more. Talked to before and afterwords and always hugged afterwords for reassurance)

1)toddler child of 3 wandered onto a busy street after being told stay at sidewalk (and was placed there while single mom was taking beach stuff out of trunk). She could not be seen over the car hood and would have been easily been killed. Lesson-stay means stay.

2)2nd grade child playing out on front lawn with friends. Decided to go to a friend's house down the road with out asking mom. Mom goes outside to check on daughter, no daughter, no friends, just daughter's shoes. Lesson relearned-Mom is the boss-ask first.

There were 2 more occasions, similar to #2.

That was all it took for her to realize I was serious-"the look" was generally all that was needed to cause her to think about her actions. She got the "Come to Jesus Meeting" when it was more serious. It is but one of the tools that a parent can use. It is and should be use very sparingly. All forms of discipline should be age appropriate (spanking an infant and ta sering a Grandmother are not appropriate)

I was a very busy single Mom with very little support or resources. I laid out very basic rules (for safety more than anything else) and those were the boundaries. I was Mom, not captain of the debate team. I would tell my daughter once that I was her mean old Mom now but I would be her best friend one day when she got older. She'll be 17 this year and I am seeming less mean to her already.

She has come home and told me stories of some of her teen friends being kicked out of their houses. It never ceases to shock me-and seems more common than I ever would have guessed. Now neglect of a child and a lack of guidance is far more abusive than an occasional swat ever will be to my way of thinking.

The parents, not the state should have a vested interest in the child's welfare and bear the brunt of responsibility for raising them. I don't believe in child abuse, but I don't believe in abusive government telling me how to raise my kids either.

[Bill McBlueState]

sure.

You're not generally allowed to hit people. Why should children be exempt from that?

[Igel]

172. "Generally."

'Nuff said.

[JackRiddler]

27. Agree with all that you say

And no, spanking should not be made illegal.

[Oeditpus Rex]

29. For the record, this isn't in a court

It's a proposed bill by Assemblywoman Sally Lieber, a Dem. And it hasn't even gone to committee yet.

[JackRiddler]

220. Well...

it's a proposal to criminalize spanking. If it is passed (which will never happen!) it would mean court cases, yes.

Imagine it: cops barging into homes on suspicion that a child is being spanked.

[Breeze54]

30. Spanking is a sign of a parent losing their temper.

Time out and positive reinforcement work a whole lot better.

If you're that frustrated with an unruly child.

Take a deep breath.

Put them in time out and go smoke something.

Calm down.

This "legislation" will go no where. It's unenforceable.

[slackmaster]

40. Not always

n/t

[Breeze54]

136. Yes it is. If you can't control yourself;

how do you expect a child to?

Children learn by example.

[slackmaster]

138. I've been down this road before, it always leads nowhere

I am not an advocate of spanking. In fact, as a parent I renounced it.

[Dora]

185. n/t = "no text" which means it goes in your subject line. n/t

[Clevenger]

31. Spanking teaches children that you get what you want through violence...

...that being said, it should still not be illegal. We already have so many goddamned laws that everyone is a criminal.

[Zodiak]

44. I agree that we overuse laws against victimless crimes

but this one has a victim....and the victim is a captive and cannot defend themselves.

[Clevenger]

52. Making spanking illegal would set children and the State against parents...

...which busybody bureaucrats, prosecutors, and lawyers would just love. No, we already have laws against actual child abuse. Making "spanking" (who defines it?) illegal would begin an endless legal nightmare, and would likely destroy many good families.

[Midlodemocrat]

57. Maybe it would just prevent kids from being hit.

JMHO. YMMV.

[Clevenger]

79. Or maybe kids would just turn in their parents to the police...

...if they didn't get their way. Kids do shit like that, especially if they feel emboldened by the system.

[Midlodemocrat]

83. Um, not really.

Kids essentially want to please their parents, to make them proud of them. And, kids I treated who were being abused took a very, very long time to come forward with that information so that it could be dealt with.

I don't think this would be an issue.

[Clevenger]

101. Um, yes... it's inevitable that some kids would seek "revenge" in this way.

Once a person with a certain personality type learns that they can manipulate the system, they'll do it. We've all seen it or read about it. To think that some spolied, rebellious children wouldn't use such a law to "get even" with their parents for some perceived slight just isn't being realistic.

[Midlodemocrat]

115. The law applies to children under 4.

I don't see a lot of four year olds rushing to use the phone to dial the police.

[Clevenger]

134. So who's going to turn in the spankers?

If 4-year-olds can't or won't dial 911, who's going to enforce such an anti-spanking law? Will there be routine door-to-door "interviews" with children conducted by enforcers? I think the fact that 4-year-olds are so easly cowed and manipulated by adults makes the likelihood of the law being abused even greater than if it applied to children over the age of 4.

[HoneyBee]

94. The law in question applies to kids under the age of 4.

This tidbit is often left out of the discussions. I doubt that they have 911 on speed-dial for such occasions.

[LostinVA]

122. Oh boy

[Zodiak]

86. If the person who is supposed to care about me

smacked me in the face, I would turn against them, too.

"Endless legal nightmare". I admit that there would be some regulations to put into effect, but I think that your statement is hyperbolic. As it stands now, the laws against child abuse have a high "proveablility" factor. I watched a man beat his 3 year old daughter with a belt....smacking her ass and thighs at least 10-15 times. When I called the cops, they told me it was not a clear case of abuse and they sent no one because "there were no broken bones nor was there blood drawn".

Spanking = Physically hitting your child to show them right from wrong

Pretty easy definition to me.

Slap to the wrist?
Shaking the shit out of a kid?
Knocking them in the back of the head?

All constitute physical punishment = "spanking"

I admit that I am damaged goods because I was horribly abused as a child. The experience has made it clear to me that no person who cannot defend themselves needs to be subject to any adult's idea of right and wrong under the threat of a physical beating. I am against this type of coercion just as much as I am against torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. God, so much abuse on this thread.

It breaks my heart. I'm so sorry you went through that.

I wish you healing. :hug:

[Zodiak]

126. thanks, Mildo

I will consider myself healed when I have the courage to have children.

I am getting there...slowly, as I learn to trust myself. I am a different person than my father.

[Clevenger]

116. Like I said, I'm opposed to spanking, but we don't need such a law. n/t

[New Earth]

32. I never spank my daughter

the only time I ever have was when she was about 2 and ran into the street, it was just a reaction so she would know it was wrong. She's so good that I don't have a reason to spank her, but I think she is so good because of the way I talk to her when she does something wrong. There are definately others ways to deal with a child misbehaving than to hit them. I don't think it should be "illegal" though. All children are different - maybe it is better for some, as long as it is not used constantly -- if a child is spanked for everything they do wrong, it is not going to teach them anything but anger.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

34. If you can't instill discipline in your children without hitting them --

then you're not a very good parent -- much like a leader who relies on war to solve problems rather than diplomacy.

The disciplinary problem with children these days is probably due more to absent parents (either due to work, divorce or abandonment), the use of television and video games as babysitters and the lack of personal responsibility among many parents these days (ie those who blame the teachers, etc. for not totally raising their children for them.)

[Zodiak]

41. When I was a child

I tried my best to be a good kid from the age of 0-5 when I was raised solely by my mother. I do not remember her hitting me more than a tap to the wrist. Her withering stare was enough to stop me in my tracks.

Then my mother got together with my military dad for a couple of years. During that time, I was beaten with fists, open hand, belts, and a bull whip. I was threatened with my life (drowning) for not being able to dive properly at the age of 6. Needless to say, I did a perfect swan dive, but I resented fearing for my life for it. My parents got divorced...partially because my father was a womanizer, and partially because my mother found numerous bruises on me in the bathtub (I hid them from her).

When I went to school (in Texas), I was given a paddling by the Dean of Boys for being out of my seat when the bell rang....at 18 years old! I watched the asshole in the mirror grit his teeth when he hit me and smile to himself. I was a straight "A" student that has never had a discipline problem.

Needless to say, I grew up with a REAL problem with authority that remains in vestigial form to this day.

I do not have children because I am afraid of the cycle of abuse.

Make it illegal. If drugs are illegal because a couple of people abuse it (its more than a couple of poeple who abuse their kids), so should beating a child.

[Clevenger]

67. I was rarely spanked, yet I also resent authority....

Nearly every boy who went through the "system" when I was growing up (I'm 56) came into contact with some degree of institutional sadism. I feel sorry for what happend to you, but you were beaten and abused, not "spanked".

[Zodiak]

105. What's the difference?

Back then, that what it was defined as...a spanking. The military encouraged such behavior from my father, the school had no problem with their program of abuse, and other parents knew it was going on an gave their approval to it, as well. From our perch 30 years later, we can call it abuse. I call it "life for a kid in the 70's on a military base"....we ALL went through it...every one of my friends on that base.

I do not think that there is such a thing as "light" violence as acceptable behavior. Violence, whether mild or intense, should never be used as a means to teach someone so small and helpless "right from wrong". The distinction between a spanking and abuse does not exist for the child...only that someone who declares every day that they love them suddenly becomes a tyrant who inflicts pain (terribly confusing for a child).

[Midlodemocrat]

152. .

:applause:

[Bandit]

43. Sometimes there is a fine line between spanking and beating

I feel an intelligent person never needs to hit another to get their message across. Although when it comes to a two year old sometimes it takes a little more to get their attention, that is for sure...

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. I swatted mine during emergencies when they were toddlers, but as they got older

we switched to time-out and now we lose privileges.

(By emergency I mean, they tried to many times to play with an outlet or something, and I finally had to resort to pavlovian training.)

[mainegreen]

51. Silly, that's why we have tasers!

:P

[Bucky]

59. !

:)

[ShortnFiery]

69. Or waving the gun around also tends to get their attention.

:rofl:

[Rosemary2205]

68. I think it depends on the kid

I got spanked once - a quick swat on the bottom. Nothing big. I was generally obedient and the spanking upset me so much that it just wasn't worth it. After that a firm talking to worked.

My brothers, on the other hand, insisted on being wild maniacs no matter what amount of firm talking to, groundings, loss of privileges etc they were given - and my parents attempted to be quite strict. When one brother started getting violent and punched a girl at school in 1st grade they added spanking to the talking and other punishments. Once my brothers knew that belt was there it was a whole different story. Within a year they knew the meaning of basic respect. -- This is not to say they were docile with no opinions of their own.

[Lord Byron]

73. No offense but I think "time out" is ridiculous

I really do. Also, I should say that different cultures have different methods of raising their children. Upper middle class white Northern Americans generally don't spank their kids. So please don't try to force your values on others.

[Midlodemocrat]

89. It's not.

At all. And when and if you have kids, you might feel differently.

[LostinVA]

124. Timeout is a proven method -- it is not ridiculous

[Zodiak]

128. I agree

I have seen the effectiveness of good parenting strategies on the most obnoxious of kids.

These strategies did not entail beatings.

[northzax]

158. so is spanking

natch.

why is social isolation and humiliation more or less acceptable than physical punishment?

[Midlodemocrat]

169. Well, I don't consider it social isolation to place a toddler

in the dining room when I'm in the kitchen. JMHO.

[northzax]

178. depends on how it is done, right?

punishing someone by withholding human contact can be just as damaging, would you not agree?

[Midlodemocrat]

182. I don't see it that way, although I do agree with your point that

withholding human contact is punishment.

Time outs for my kids generally grew out of inappropriate behavior while playing. A child doesn't want to miss out on the fun, so putting them in a different room from their friends or their toys can work wonders.

It takes more effort on the part of the parents because the first few times they don't get that they have to stay on the stairs, or in the chair, but they eventually get it and they eventually stop the behavior that got them there in the first place.

One caveat though, you can't get a very young child to share and putting them in time out for not sharing does no good at all.

[fleabert]

227. I was part of that group,

and I was spanked. a lot.

I will NEVER spank my children. Ever. I hope. Because it was done to me, it's likely to be a knee-jerk reaction in a crisis, I hope I can overcome that. I have found myself challenged when caring for my cousins, neices, and nephews- but I didn't do it. I hated being spanked, never remembered why I was spanked, or what the lesson was- just that my parents thought it was okay to hurt me.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

75. Stephanie Miller has been talking about this all week

My mother swatted my behind exactly once when I was growing up. She proudly told her friends she didn't spank. But she played head games with me, stuff that was so vile I won't talk about them on the internet. Suffice it to say it was psychological abuse and it has taken me most of my adult life to get over it. So I think there are a lot of things far worse than spanking.

[Midlodemocrat]

85. God, I'm so sorry.

You could have been one of my patients many years ago.

I wish adults would realize the damage they do to the little innocent lives in their care.

[slackmaster]

90. Most people are ill prepared to be parents when they have children

Way too immature.

[Midlodemocrat]

95. That is beyond the truth.

We make hairdressers get training for crying out loud to CUT HAIR!!!

But we don't teach people how to parent.

And, I confess, my education probably gives me an edge, not necessarily in the parenting arena, but in the experience arena. I saw so much abuse when I was in practice, emotional, verbal, physical, sexual, there is NO way that I would do that to my kids. I love them too much.

And, so far, they're turning out pretty well.

[slackmaster]

137. Glad to hear that - My ex-wife and I made a non-spanking pact early on

We raised one child, her son from a previous marriage. Both of us had been spanked occasionally by our mothers. We didn't feel it had harmed us, but thought we could do better.

At age 31 I violated the pact once, in a situation I considered to be desperate. I swatted the boy once, not very hard, after he failed to heed repeated verbal warnings not to get too close to the edge of a high cliff in Hawaii. It worked. Of course anyone sitting in their comfortable office chair (including me) can think of any number of other ways I could have handled the situation without force, but they were not in my shoes at that moment.

(ETA truly bad parents wouldn't have taken their child to Hawaii in the first place. He had a great time there.)

The problems I see here are A) Parents' lack of maturity and B) Parents' lack of better skills for coping with their childrens' behavior. Young adults with small children are armed only with the poor skills they learned from their young, immature, unskilled parents.

Rather than this IMO silly quest to outlaw all forms of corporal punishment, I'd rather see the state take the money it would cost to enforce the new law and spend it teaching parental skills to young adults.

Unfortunately, that's not how things work in California. The proposed law wouldn't cost the state any money at all; like so many other proclamations coming out of Sacramento this would be another unfunded madate handed down to counties and municipalities to enforce.

[NashVegas]

212. How Do You Train People Uniformly To Parent?

It's not possible, and if it was, society would probably become a truly boring place, in the longer run.

My attitude is much like the OP. I was spanked on 2-4 occasions as a kid and wouldn't say I was harmed by it.

But looking back?

The one spanking I specifically remember came as a result of wandering away from home (with two friends) for a couple of hours. I was spanked because my activity scared the crap out of my mom, and it was easier for her to give me a "spanking to remember" than it was to deal with her fear and communicate it.

[Midlodemocrat]

216. I think when they are passing the

"what to expect while you're expecting" books right after the stick turns blue, there should be some communication about parenting classes, or books or some such stuff.

In all honesty, I don't know what can be done. I just know that I have seen the heartbreaking results of majorly fucked up families and I wish I could do something to prevent it.

When I see a mom beating the shit out of her child in the grocery store (because let's face it, the kid doesn't want to be there AT ALL), I make it a point to make eye contact with the mom and kind of comment along the lines of "gosh, they can sure push our buttons, can't they?" Kind of a shared experience sort of thing.

A lot of the time moms or for that matter, dads, are just overwhelmed. They have to get to work, work all day, pick the child up from daycare, fix dinner, do homework, baths, read stories and collapse.

I confess. It was much easier for me. I didn't work when my kids were small. I had the luxury of staying home and being with them and therefore, that was MY job. So, I felt I needed to give it my all, like I would have if there was a paycheck involved.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

96. When I taught school

I made sure that the kids knew that they were worthy. I still feel the most important thing to give a child is a positive self image.

[johnnie]

78. I got spanked, talked to, sent to the corner, time outed and a lot more

None of it worked on me. I was scared shitless of my father (although he didn't beat me), but I wasn't scared enough to not do the things I did.

Spanking didn't work in my case, neither did the time outs, washing my mouth out with soap, being sent to bed early, being sent to the corner, paddled at school, parental talks and just about every other disciplinary actions my elders took. I was just a little shit. I turned out fine though.

[Midlodemocrat]

88. That's a matter of opinion.

:hide:


:rofl:

[johnnie]

111. All four of my therapists think I am

And the warden at county said I was their best prisoner they ever had... all 6 times!

[Midlodemocrat]

125. Did they also say you were a major hottie?

Cause that's a vital piece of information!!!

[devilgrrl]

202. Treating a kid like that doesn't work, especially when love is absent the rest of the time.

No love - unruly kid. Plain & simple.

[Javaman]

93. Dang, I wish I got my popcorn early in this one...

:popcorn:

[AlCzervik]

97. i've never spanked or hit my daughter and my reasons for not doing so are 2 fold

#1 i've just never needed to, maybe i'm lucky but my kid never threw a fit or attempted something dangerous...ie finger in the light socket, #2 my own childhood, i won't get into details but a block of 7 years was exceedingly unpleasant and physically painful.

[treestar]

98. Maybe you aren't so good

Seriously, we all have problems and insecurities.

I would say a parent who can do it without spanking is doing a better and more sophisticated job of parenting. There is a difference between those who just don't discipline (whether spanking or not) and those who know how not to do it.

IOW, it is over simplistic to say that those who were spanked will turn out to be better discplined than those not. And that the striking of the child does not have some negative affect along with whatever is alledgely positive.

[Selatius]

103. If your children misbehave, then take away something they like to punish them.

If they have a playstation, then take it away until they behave themselves. Taking away something they like has the same effect as using force. The only difference is they don't grow up and resort to beating their own kids because of what you did to them when they were kids.

[HoneyBee]

110. Again, the proposed law applies to kids under the age of 4.

[Selatius]

127. Well, substitute playstation for child safe toys.

If your child has a favorite toy, then naturally that could be the focal point of repercussions for poor behavior.

[northzax]

159. no, instead they learn that what is valuable

is stuff, and if they don't do what authority tells them to do, they don't get the valuable stuff. great lesson.

see how every single parenting technique can be twisted by those with an agenda?

[haele]

112. If the parent is out of reach and a kid gets hurt by touching a hot burner

in the kitchen or pulling a pot down on his or her foot despite all the talking to and corner punishment, is the parent now liable because they did not move quickly enough or the kid did not listen well enough?
Depending on the child, sometimes a quick attention getter is what is needed to stop a trend towards disaster. Some young children will respond to a sharp word and the threat of future punishment to bring them back to awareness of their situation. Unfortunately, pain of any sort is one of nature's primary teaching tools, and some post-toddlers are just not developmentally sophisticated enough to listen to anything other than the actual memory of pain. A quick swat will often make a kid think twice before doing the undesirable action again. After all, I would never punish one of my cats if they scratched a visiting four-year-old for being too rough with them - the child is old enough to know better and listen to adults telling him or her to "leave the kitty alone". Nature is there to teach the child that kitty does not want to be cornered and played with.

I'm not talking about babies that cry constantly and psycho parents who are too immature to deal with it. Abuse - Violence out of rage or frustration is always excessive and should be illegal.

I'm talking about dealing with headstrong, fixated children who would otherwise ignore any stimulus other than what is their focus. To legally take away one of the primary tools for a responsible parent to rein in a five or six year old who work themselves into a state where they won't listen and strike out at any resistance is foolish.

And yes, anecdotally, I do know of at least two kids who were disciplined with time outs, gentle words, and rewards by well-meaning but very unobservant parents and turned out to be self-centered, un-aware, manipulative shits. One in jail for grand theft, the other looking for co-enabler number seven or eight. Likewise, I know of many people who as kids had the shit beat our of them by short-tempered, selfish, and equally un-observant parents and grew up with equally serious emotional and relationship issues.

There is no perfect world nor is there a perfect kid. Raising children requires that the parents be responsibly observant and able practice the best methods for each situation that comes up to get their kids through the development years to become equally responsible, observant, and emotionally stable adults.
For some children, that might mean grabbing an arm and deploying a quick swat on the butt to get their attention - or to use another supposed "bad parenting practice" - putting them on leashes when going out in public. For others, a sharp word, a "count to three" or a time out will work just fine.

IMO, only the people directly involved with the family would be in the position to know what really works with a child. A new "one sized fits all" law will do nothing but punish responsible parents when there are already serious laws against abusive treatment of children that are apparently not being enforced.
As it is, the parents that get prosecuted under child abuse laws are almost uniformly the poorer, working class parents - the "pillar of the community", good, middle class, professional families are the ones that don't get investigated when there is abuse. Enforce the laws, and you won't have to worry about kids getting hurt through abusive spanking, and you won't be punishing the parents who might have to give their kids between the ages of four to seven a quick swat as an attention getter perhaps once or twice in their childhood.

Yes, I was spanked four times growing up. Each for something I did that I: 1) knew better than to do yet did anyway and seriously damaged or destroyed something and 2) continued doing after being otherwise disciplined and warned repeatedly to stop. I remembered not only the punishment but the disappointment it gave my parents and I did not do these things while I still lived with them. (What I did after I grew up and moved out of the house was only done after I had learned the reason behind the rules and understood when a rule could be broken and when it shouldn't. But I still remember the punishment and the disappointment.)


Haele

[bleedingheart]

145. I agree with your posts

I was spanked as a child very rarely but when I got a swatting it was for something I did that I was either endangering myself or so out of control that I needed to be set right.

I rarely spanked and for the same reasons my mother did. I swatted my toddler's buts when they went to touch the stove, or run into the road..etc

My daughter was a consumate runner...I would take her places and the moment I let go of her hand...off like a dart.
I did my best to handle the situation (reasoning, time outs..going back home if it was really bad (no spankings))and then one day I ordered a child leash.

She saw the leash, she cried and cried "please no..I am not a dog"..."please no..."...

So I put the leash in my purse and told her that when we ventured out that if she ran one more time...the leash was going on. I made it her choice. Never needed the leash...but it was the best $14 I ever spent.

[Rosemary2205]

149. good post - nt

[seabeyond]

131. the bigger issue. these laws will always allow the republican party

to be strong and a force in this society.

i hate hate hate this bullshit as much as i hate hate hate a fundamentalist christian to tell me how i am suppose to live my spiritual life and putting it into law

[Zodiak]

133. So we should allow children to be beaten

so we can elect Democrats? So the Repubicans do not get more power?

There are clear victims here....ones that cannot vote, cannot leave their abusive situation, and cannot articulate what they are feeling because they are too young. This is not the same as preventing gays from marrying (because who suffers if they marry?).

If we allow children to be beaten, then we know there is suffering. I am not going to ignore it because a few Democrats need a job.

[slackmaster]

139. Beating children is already illegal in California

:hi:

[Zodiak]

144. so why is this at-issue then?

Seems to me that beating a child would not be debated if it were already illegal.

Or is it that the law has defined a "beating" as physical punishment less than a certain threshold and is now considering violence as just that...violence...whether you euphamize it as a "spanking", describe it as a "beating", striking, or whatever other sematic argument is brought to bear. Regardless, I see this as black and white between violence against children and no violence against children.

Should violence against children be illegal to teach them right from wrong? Even limited, controlled violence?

I say yes.

ON EDIT: put the "il" in front of illegal.

[slackmaster]

163. It's really very simple

It's been made an issue for political reasons.

[Rosemary2205]

146. Beating children is illegal in Georgia too.

spanking is still legal though.

[seabeyond]

151. it is not beating. that is the same bullshit talk republicans use...pro abortion

you are playing a f*in word game in manipulation in argument for agenda purpose on telling a parent how to raise their children. it is not beating. there are laws against beating. calif is real good at going after parents for beating. this has nothing to do with beating. what it does have to do with is other people changing the definition of abuse to meet their own outrage and judgment of this punishing tool.

all the children in the world who have had parent spank them will tell those who are against it is not not abusive, it is not a bad punishment and those that oppose close their ears and refuse. it is your personal line. just as those that feel to allow the selling of after morning pill or contraceptions is spiritual abuse and want to pass law on it because of their belief

i am not posting to argue you moral outrage at spanking. i am saying i refuse to allow these types of laws on the democratic side as much as i am opposed to the religious laws being forced on us by the rw.

you .... are no better.

and the american people will reject. the democratic party will be rejected

[Zodiak]

170. I do not appreciate the cursing at me

and must ask that in the interest of good discourse you refrain from it when addressing me.

It would also serve you better to attack the message and not the messenger.

Now, having said that, you have no idea what my personal agenda is. Maybe you should read this thread to know where I am coming from rather than hurl accusations. I have outlined clearly where I am coming from. This has nothing to do with politics for me, so I find it ironic that the person who does cage this issue into politics accuses me of an agenda.

I ask...what is the definition of "spanking" and "beating"? Three times or more...causing a bruise? Only on the ass? Those sound more like semantics than my approach.

Because to me it all is violence, not a "tool". This is a "tool" in parenting like torture is a "tool" in the war on terrorism. It is coersion through violence.

To me, I am the not the one playing word games. Violence is violence. Violence against children is wrong. It is that simple to me. After having been a beaten child and knowing all of the other beaten children I grew up with (and the damage it has done to their lives), I think this issue is pervasive enough to warrant looking into from a legislative point of view.

[seabeyond]

174. what a hoot you are. you want your world one way, which is fine i can respect

go for it and do. but, you want all others to accomadate you as you see fit. that i wont do. you dont dictate how i talk. if you are offended by cussing, ignore me. i will cuss when i see fit. if that dismisses all i say, that is your own limitation, not mine.

[Zodiak]

194. Now you couple it with jeering

cursing, accusing me of a non-existant agenda, and now laughing at me. I guess you have run out of points because you are no longer discussing the topic at hand.

I cannot dictate how you talk, true...nor do I wish it, but I can dictate how you address me.

Your rights end at the tip of your nose. Read the DU rules about composing oneself with other DUers for a refresher.

[Midlodemocrat]

171. Major difference.

You, as an adult, have the option to completely disregard the fundamentalist Christian who is trying to convert you, or influence you.

A child small enough to be spanked is helpless to do anything about it. Let's face it, how many parents spank their teen age football playing sons? They discipline them in other ways, grounding, taking away the car, etc., they don't spank them because they CAN'T.

And, when they were little, they shouldn't have spanked them because it is wrong to do so.

[seabeyond]

176. as an adult, when a fundamentalist gets a law passed refusing to sell me after morning

pill, or not getting married cause i am gay, or deny me the birth control pill, i as an adult am effected

[Midlodemocrat]

181. But as an adult, you have the option to challenge that and

get it changed. A child doesn't have that option. All they can hope for is that they don't piss mom or dad off again and get hit.

[seabeyond]

228. then pass a law that a parent can not yell at or use scorn on their child

as disciplinary measures. those two things are right up there in the same level of abuse as a spanking. while we are at it pass a law that a parent must be conected to the child, because a parent that does not connect the child cause more life long pain for a child than any spanking will do

[LeftishBrit]

148. I don't think spanking as such should be illegal...

(not that I'm pro-spanking, but the question asked is whether there should be a *law* against it - I think not.) However, I do think that it should be illegal to use a stick or other implement.

[Fleshdancer]

161. Is there some sort of horrible spanking epidemic going on that I don't know about?

I'm not trying to be flippant about this issue, I really want to know the statistics on this. Do we even know how many parents are spanking? Do we have actual studies measuring the physical and or emotional damage from spanking? Do we have an exact definition of what spanking is?

As a parent, I do not spank but I also don't think making it illegal is necessary either. I wonder what would constitute a spanking worthy of getting arrested....one pat with an open hand? Two? Four or more? Would it have to occur in public? Would a mark on the bottom have to be seen by a social worker? How in the world would this work?

[frogmarch]

162. Spanking should be illegal

It's battery.

I was never spanked, and neither my husband nor I ever spanked our three kids, who all grew up to be good people, who in turn, do not spank their kids.

Seeing a child being slapped, spanked, or in any other way abused, boils my blood.

[slackmaster]

180. Battery is already illegal

It's not at all clear what you are trying to say.

[frogmarch]

222. I should have added IMO

to "It's battery." making the statement read "IMO (In my opinion) it's battery."

There.

[redqueen]

164. Yes, I think spanking should be made illegal. n/t

[Deja Q]

165. The Nanny? Fran Drescher's show from 1995?!

Sorry for the joke, I know you mean "Nanny 911" or "Super Nanny", which are far more of a joke as far as I care because I wouldn't be surprised if those 'reality' shows only show handpicked families and situations where it DID work out in the end. Much like diet pills, these shows need 'results not typical.' as a disclaimer before the program starts.

I was spanked as a kid. For some things I never understood why I did wrong and still am confused.

But I'm not saying it's wrong either.

All I know is, I lack the emotional capacity to be a parent. I'm wise enough to know I'd be a fool. And that already makes me smarter than many. I'm not going to make any mistakes or, more likely. act out of frustration. And we have 6 billion miracles on this planet already. I can be used for more productive things; other people can stick to the reproduction.

In the end, it's best to get over it. After all, one cannot change the past AND not everybody can make a book or tv show about being spanked and become famous... though I have a few sweeps week-worthy incidents of my own childhood that could net me a few million too (though none of those incidents were due to family, and I support their decision to spank)...

[DiverDave]

173. Spanking shows OUR failure.

If you need to spank to get a point across, you are the one that needs it.

Patience, love, respect, and LISTENING these all are part of raising kids.
I have 2 boys, spanked the older, once, felt terrible.
Haven't had too since, we talk about actions and results of actions.
He gets corner time, tho not for a long time, and we take computer and games away.
Seems to be working fine.

Make it a crime?...dunno, gotta think about that.

[Midlodemocrat]

175. I tend to think it is one of those crimes that will never get

reported, but might make parents stop doing it. Like the whole seat belt thing. It's a crime in a lot of states not to wear one, but even before it was a crime, people wore them because it was the safe and responsible thing to do.

[slackmaster]

177. It would be extremely ironic for the state to make it a crime

Discourage parents from using force on their children, by threatening THEM with force in the form of the criminal justice system.

Parents can do better than spanking their children for misbehaving.

The state can do better than sending people to jail for having poor parental skills.

[Midlodemocrat]

183. I would hope that if it passes, it becomes one of those laws

that isn't prosecuted, but people abide by anyway.

[slackmaster]

184. IMO a public awareness campaign would be more likely to work

People ignore a lot of the laws that ARE enforced.

[Midlodemocrat]

186. You might very well be correct.

There has been a lot of 'public awareness' about spanking over the last generation or so and it does appear to be less popular than it was previously.

[Madspirit]

179. Sick

Hitting children is sick, sick, sick. That it's OK to hit someone who doesn't come up to your knees yet if you were hitting an adult, you would be charged with assault...once again...sick, sick, sick, sick, sick.
Madspirit

[Clinton_Co_Regulator]

187. Here is a poll asking that very question

http://www.clintonherald.com/

Bottom right of page.

[devilgrrl]

191. I was spanked. As a adult, I still want to belt my mother for it.

Violence begets violence.

Spanking doesn't solve anything, it just produces more pissed off people.

[slackmaster]

192. As a young adult I sometimes resented my mother for occasional spankings

At age 48 I've for a long time realized that she was very young, and in a difficult marriage. She was only 23 when I was born. I have completely forgiven her for the few times she spanked me or my brother out of frustration.

I wish people could wait until at least age 30 to have children. Better still, 40. But that's not the way things work.

[devilgrrl]

201. My mother was young too and married the wrong man...

I resented being on the receiving end of her bad choices. It's one thing to spank for misbehaving and entirely another because you're simply there. It wasn't MY fault I was born.

[slackmaster]

207. I hope you can forgive your mother some day

The best payback IMO would be for you to have children and never spank them.

[VenusRising]

197. ...

10000 Maniacs - What's The Matter Here

That young boy without a name
Anywhere I'd know his face
In this city the kid's my favorite
I've seen him
I see him every day
Seen him run outside
Looking for a place to hide
From his father
The kid half naked
And said to myself
"O,
what's the matter here?"

I'm tired of the
excuses
Everybody uses
He's their kid
I stay out
of it
But who gave you the right
To do this?

We live on Morgan Street
Just ten feet between
And his mother
I never see her
But her screams and cussing
I hear them every day
Threats like
"If you don't
mind I will beat on your behind"
"Slap you, slap you silly"
Made me say
"O, what's the matter here?"

I'm tired of the excuses
Everybody uses
He's your kid
Do as you see fit
But get this through
That I don't approve
Of what you did
To you own flesh and blood

I'm tired of
the excuses
Everybody uses
He's your kid
Do as
you see fit
But get this through
That I don't
approve
Of what you did
To you own flesh and
blood

"If you don't sit
In your chair straight
I'll take this belt
From around my waist
And don't you think
That I won't use it!"
Answer me and take your time
What could be the awful crime
He could do at such young an age?
If I'm the only witness
To your madness
Offer me some
words to balance
Out what I see and what I hear
All these cold and rude
Things that you do
I suppose you do
Because he belongs to you
And instead of love
And the feel of warmth
You've given him these cuts
And sores won't heal
With time or age
I want to say
"What's the Matter here?"
But I don't dare say
"What's the Matter here?"
But I don't dare say

[slackmaster]

198. Police:Grandma Shot With Taser Gun For Interfering With Spanking

Just to add another level of irony to the discussion.

SAN DIEGO -- A man was ordered to stay away from his wife's grandmother, after he shot her with a Taser gun during an argument, according to authorities. It happened in Aaron and Caroline Debruin's home, in Washington.

The Debruins were spanking their child, when Caroline's grandmother, Rosemary Garlock, stepped in and asked the parents to stop, according to police.

Garlock was asked to leave, and when she didn't Aaron Debruin shocked her using a taser gun, police said.

Garlock called police and Debruin was arrested, according to authorities.

http://www.10news.com/news/10852366/detail.html?rss=sand&psp=news

[The Count]

199. Abused kids may turn all right (i.e - Bill Clinton?). It doesn't make abuse OK

I am not sure that making it illegal will help much, but it's definitely a poor way to educate children. In my book.

[cynatnite]

208. Spanking a kid doesn't make them a good person as an adult...

We have on occasion given a swat on the butt to our kids, but outright spanking...we don't do. Even if a parent does spank that shouldn't be the only option in regards to discipline. Any parent who use only that form of discipline needs serious parenting classes.

[DuaneBidoux]

210. Should not be made illegal. But I believe there are alternatives 90% of the time.

I have a 13 year old boy. I think we may have spanked him three times in his entire life so far and two of those times were when he was a toddler and we caught him sticking something into a wall socket.

There are situations where some kind of inflicted pain is the only reasonable alternative. Again, referencing my own son: he loved to seek out objects and stick them in wall sockets. We tried to child proof them but this kid had tenacity! Ultimately we decided that the only way to assure that he stoped trying was to make him associate immediate pain with the act of trying to stick something in the wall socket. It didn't take long and he got the message. On the whole I think it was a good choice.

There are also children who are so strong willed and do not seem amendable to other methods.

In general however I feel like using corporal punishment indicates a failure of more creative and intelligent methods. Corporal puniishment should be used sparingly and only as a last resort. I feel the same way about war.

[slackmaster]

219. I think you are doing fine

Anyone who would fault you for your measured use of spanking is out in left field.

Ultimately we decided that the only way to assure that he stoped trying was to make him associate immediate pain with the act of trying to stick something in the wall socket.

Far better to risk long-term psychological damage from spanking than see your boy crispy fried. ;-)

[MyNameGoesHere]

214. Spanking, killing Iraqi's,

devaluing human life. if you do one you will probably engage in the other. It is my belief this is why we cannot get along with anyone, somewhere we were told if you do not like how someone is acting hit em until they straighten up. No wonder we try to kill everyone in the world that we cannot understand or want to understand.

[trumad]

217. Wow--- a spanking debate on DU

Now that's Progressive...

Seriously--- I have 3 kids--- 9--12-- and 13.

I've never spanked them and I'm proud of that achievement. WHY? Because my kids can tell their friends that they've never been spanked by their parents. I can tell my friends that I've never spanked my kids and then watch them marvel at how well my kids have turned out.

My neighbor friends spank their kids... their kids are 11 and 9 years old. They use a spatula. Their kids are always getting spanked I presume because they are always getting in trouble. You'd think that if spanking worked, they wouldn't always be getting in trouble. Nope

Kids aren't animals...they're human beings.

If you spank your children then you are a deficient parent. You simply do not have the smarts to discipline your kid without corporal punishment. Shame on you for having to discipline your child with physical force.... shame on you.

[Lord Byron]

224. My mother was not a "deficient parent"

Sorry. She was born in the Maghreb. Respect the fact that other cultures have different methods of raising their children. It's not for you to judge.

[trumad]

225. That was old school...

Hey---we didn't wear seat belts back then either.... Would you consider a parent deficient today if they allowed their kids to rife in the car with no seat belt? Yep.

It's a new day and spanking should be a thing of the past.

[cynatnite]

229. I swatted my son when he was four...

It was one on the butt when he ran across the street and almost got hit by a car. That was after I told him to get away from the street. That's the last time I've done that and I don't recall ever giving him a swat before. He's seven now. My other two girls are much older and I couldn't tell you when I did with them.

I don't know what you'd call it, but I don't think it's spanking.

[slackmaster]

231. I think that is appropriate, and did the same thing just once

To prevent my stepson from getting too close to the edge of a 2,000 foot sheer cliff in Hawaii.

I don't know what you'd call it, but I don't think it's spanking.

Some here would call you a "deficient parent" because of that one incident. Personally, I wouldn't presume to know better than you how to handle your child.

[WinkyDink]

218. So was I. And I'm a very aggressive person, much to my female, 5'2" detriment.

Got the "strap" (belt) a few times, too.

[burythehatchet]

221. Every child will respond differently

based on the other aspects of parenting, personality, sensitivity, and so on. Since the risk of damaging the child forever exists, I will never ever use violence to discipline a child. As a person who was abused as a child , I can tell you it was very damaging to me. It has taken decades and good therapy to reconcile my childhood.

[katsy]

226. I married older and had my twins at an older than average age.

My father never believed in spanking/hitting or mental attacks.

He used to speak with me. We'd have a talk. I usually ended up crying because I felt soooo bad about what I did. At family gatherings, kids and animals always ended up around my dad. I was proud not jealous. But anyway...

As the years moved on... I flew the nest. Always had my own pets. I was especially proud of myself because none of my pets would ever cringe at my hands. My hands were helpful to feed, fun to play with, and soothing and comforting.

By the time I had my own children, my hands wouldn't work in any other way.

I stopped bothering with time-outs at 3 because my daughter said she liked her "privacy" anyway.

Now, at 5, we talk. I win some and I lose some. But credit goes to them for agreeing to being tolerable sometimes, thinking before acting, and trying harder to follow the rules the rest of the time.

Would that settlement between me and my kids be BETTER for any of us if I spanked? Would spanking have made me a winner 100% of the time instead of 30%?

I don't know and don't care. I still like my hands.

[blues90]

232. I am a child from the 50's

I was spanked ,hit with belts , punched and slapped . Let me tell you this does not make you well behaved what it does is instill a long lasting fear if you need to confront someone later on in live . I don;t mean attack someone but challenge an opinion of take a stand for something you feel strongly about . It took me many years to get past this crap .

[Manifestor_of_Light]

233. I still shudder to think about my experience

Both my parents chased me down the sidewalk with a bamboo switch in hand. Mom would run down the sidewalk screeching my name and I would hide down the street and my friend and I would laugh at her for looking ridiculous. Usually I could run faster than they could.

My crime? LEAVING the house. GOING OUTSIDE to play. My mom didn't want me to play with ANY of the neighbor kids because we lived in a trashy lower class neighborhood. I was desperate for companionship, even though the little bastards and bitches would pick on me, and eventually I would go home crying. I was supposed to be a goody-goody.

However, did she give me any alternatives? Let me join the Girl Scouts, which was the only place where I was not picked on in a group of kids? No, she wouldn't. Mom was a jailer.

I still shudder and am horrified when I think about them going after me with a switch just for going outside and not staying in the house. The 'hood was quiet; there was no heavy traffic nearby in the postwar cheap suburbia I grew up in.

I got swatted a couple times with a hand on the outside of my clothes, but never with a belt.

I remember the stings on my legs. I remember a lot of things my mom did that make me shudder. And this was in the early sixties.

These were intelligent, college educated people.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

234. And then there are the sadistic ticklers

I'm convinced that ticklers are sadists.

My former MIL from hell was tickling my at the time hubby (who was an overgrown child/college student) and she told me to join in because it was funny.

I told her, "No, I won't. I think it's cruel and sadistic."

I also called her husband (my FIL) a scab when he described the horrors of having to work in the chemical plant when those workers were on strike and Mr. Rice University Ph.D. just couldn't bear the thought of getting his hands dirty and doing actual physical work (like my father did in a stinkin' refinery for thirty years).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

235. I know of one horrible example

His daddy beat him with a belt growing up, and then before the old man died, he apologized.

This guy is a sociopath. However, he hides it well because he's filthy rich and can get away with just about anything.

[upi402]

236. spankings legal, beatings not (I say)

who decides though?

[NaturalHigh]

237. It's tough to draw the line.

I don't spank my kids and never will, but I'm against outlawing spanking.

[upi402]

238. I never

spanked my daughter, but years later my son need one or two a year. Never in anger, always explained ahead of time. Hugs followed and a good talk. Both are 100% good people with no issues.


I dunno... lucky I guess. Grateful for sure.:shrug:

[slackmaster]

241. The line is drawn clearly in existing Califonria law

Go to our handy searchable collection of California statutes at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

Check Penal Code, look up key word "assault".

Repeat, looking up key word "battery".

The basic definitions for these are both in Section 240.

Then, do a search in the Penal Code with no key word. You'll get the table of contents. Search for the chapter on child abuse and neglect. There you will find a section that defines unlawful corporal punishment.

Too many people are trying to debate this subject without having a clue about it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

239. Read John Bradshaw "On The Family"

He goes into the "poisonous pedagogy" written about by Alice Miller, a German psychologist.

She explains that severe discipline, breaking the child's will, total obedience to authority and such enabled the rise of the Third Reich, due to unquestioning obedience. Hitler was beaten savagely, and so were millions of other people. Apparently millions of people still think this way.

[Odin2005]

242. The arguments against spanking in this thread are pathetic.

If a young child is doing something extremely stupid sometimes spanking is the only option, I don't care what the "experts" spewing touchy-feely psychobabble say.