Sweet Jesus I hate the NRA !!!

[marmar]

:argh:



from ThinkProgress:



NRA Propaganda At Nation’s Largest Gun Show: Obama Is An ‘Enemy Of Your Gun Rights’»

Since Barack Obama’s election, the National Rifle Association (NRA) and other pro-gun groups have been warning that the new president will take away their second amendment rights. This multi-million dollar campaign is already having effects. Not only is the NRA trying to profit off this fear-mongering by increasing its membership, many gun sellers are holding “Obama Sales.”

On Friday, ThinkProgress visited The Nation’s Gun Show in Chantilly, VA, where 1,000 vendors took over a building the size of two football fields. The NRA’s fear-mongering was all over the event. An ad in the Washington Post read, “GET YOUR GUNS WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!” While we waited in a long line in the cold, visitors willing to begin or renew their NRA membership were able to get in free and skip the line.

We spoke with an NRA coordinator at the event who confirmed that the organization had seen a dramatic increase in membership after Obama’s election and noted that the turnout at this gun show was much higher than at one two months ago. When we asked whether Obama would revoke gun owners’ rights, she strayed from the official line and admitted that with important issues like the economy, he may not go after it right away. Some of the materials that were being handed out at the NRA booth: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/11/24/gun-show/


Traces of these myths infiltrated some of the vendors’ tables as well: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/11/24/gun-show/


One vendor with Liberty Firearms was wearing a button with Obama’s name crossed out and warned a couple, “Get ready for the Obamanation.” He told us that he was actually having trouble restocking and ordering new wares because suppliers were canceling orders and getting ready to dramatically increase prices to take advantage of the hype, as they did in 1994. The man selling the “NObama” shirts said that his business was also way up. “People are afraid,” he said.

Despite the NRA’s best efforts, many individual gun owners recognize the campaign as nothing but hype. ThinkProgress spoke with Gary Foster of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, who said that while he could not speak for his organization, his personal opinion was that many media stories about a rush on guns are overblown: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/11/24/gun-show/


As FactCheck.org has explained, much of the NRA’s information is completely inaccurate: “Obama has spoken in favor of government registration of handguns, for example, but has not called for registration of all ‘firearms’ including hunting rifles and shotguns. (Many of NRA) TV spots and fliers also make claims that are directly contrary to what Obama actually says about guns.” Obama has also reassured voters that he has no intention or desire to take away their guns.


http://thinkprogress.org/2008/11/24/gun-show/

[xchrom]

1. they knew they were going to spread this propaganda --

and probably planned for it from before the election.

[Buck Laser]

2. Screw 'em. Just screw 'em.

[SammyWinstonJack]

3. Predators and those who fall for this, are morans!

:puke:

[Lint Head]

4. The NRA is an anti gun rights organization!

My free speech tells me that they are an organization set up to crucify people that disagree with them.
My free speech tells me that they DO NOT protect my right to bear arms.


:dem:

[aikoaiko]

5. Obama is not the great satan of gun rights, but since he does support a AWB he will beNRA fodder

You can't tell people that you support banning popular guns and then tell people they are overreacting when they believe you might do it.

[rangersmith82]

22. Yea its bad when you want to ban the AR-15

This is Americas rifle.

It is used to hunt, target shooting and in most major shooting activities.

You can't come out saying you are gonna ban the most popular rifle in the United States and not expect a backlash.

They are millions of the rifles in the United States, many of which are owned by fellow Democrats.

Do we want to alienate our fellow gun owners over such a law?

Are we prepared to give control back to the repubs in 4 yrs???

If we renew the AWB, we as a party will suffer a huge backlash from gun owners.

And the NRA will laugh at us while they make more $$$ on memberships.

[Catherine Vincent]

39. Your concern is duly noted. nt

[Lint Head]

6. This sounds like a threat that needs to be reported to the

Secret Service. This is inciting a riot. Maybe the riot act needs to be read to the NRA.
:dem:

[ColbertWatcher]

7. May I invite you and all other reasonable people to post their take on the NRA ...

... on the Truthiness Encyclopedia's page for the NRA (http://www.wikiality.com/NRA)

Please register before posting so your IP address isn't shown.

[NJCher]

8. what can be done about outright lying like this?

Surely there is some recourse.



Cher

[ColbertWatcher]

9. I try to mock them at every turn, see my post #7. n/t

[msongs]

10. just marketing scam - NRA and gunmakers to increase sales using fear --> like religion nt

[rangersmith82]

17. If we would just stop the Assault weapon Ban crap...

There wouldn't be people scrambling to buy guns, and nobody would even give a damn what the NRA said.

For some reason we gotta ban having regular capacity Magazines, adjustable stocks and flash hiders from Semi auto rifles.

Are Black rifles really that scary that we have to ban them?

Is this cause really worth losing our newly aquired political Capitol???

Just curious, we have tons of other issues....Iraq, the economy, health care etc.....

I think it would be smart to drop all of the anti gun crap.

[Flubadubya]

34. While "we're" at it... let's include Bazookas and Nukes to boot!

:eyes:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

38. Ahhh...

it's so cute when they are new and post their weirdness. 8 posts and already so obvious.

[Redneck Socialist]

84. And yet, what your so called "troll" has posted makes more sense than most...

...of the rest of this thread.

Odd that.

[rangersmith82]

110. Im sorry facts cause you issues....

Facts are sometimes hard things to accept.

Anti-gun thinking will never help our party.

[walldude]

57. LOL...

I was going to respond to this pathetic claptrap but what I have to say deserves it's own thread. Oh and while I'm here, learn to put something down with a single shot, that way you won't look like a pussy.

[MineralMan]

102. Real good, then..

Pssst....I hope you're not an NRA member. You know that the NRA routinely turns over its membership list to the Treasury Department. That way, they'll know which houses have all the guns in them.

It's a secret, though, so don't tell anyone I told you. Move at once, change your name, and bury your firearms in the back yard. They're coming for them soon...:hi:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. Make some room for me 'cause I think they're total @#$%heads nt

[mudesi]

12. There are NRA DUers, unfortunately (nm)

[-..__...]

31. It's because of the anti-gun DU'ers...

and zealots like the Brady Campaign/VPC/MMM that I am an active NRA member.

I don't read, keep in touch or adhere to their rhetoric... the NRA has fucked over gun owners several times, but offer me an alternative.

I'm a member because they're the only game in town (the ACLU sure the fuck is no help), that's at least making an effort to preserve the 2nd amendment.

Name one other organization that has their track record or influence?

Cease enacting gun control laws and the NRA can go back to being what it's mission was meant to be... an organization to promote gun safety and the shooting sports.

[Paladin]

92. So, It's All The Democrats' Fault, Right?

Same song, same dance....and we get to listen to this vapid, paranoid Gun Nut bullshit for the next eight years, right here at DU. Lucky us.

Anybody with a brain bigger than a small pistol primer knows that gun regulation is the kind of thing that's pursued in good times---not in times like the utter clusterfuck we find ourselves in now. Obama and his people need to deal with the shattered economy, rebuilding this country's international reputation, the environment, and a few dozen other crucial things throughout the course of his two terms. You know what the gun militancy movement's paranoid fantasies of governmental confiscation amount to? Wishful thinking. Despite your fervent wishes, guns weren't even a blip in this just-concluded campaign, a real disappointment to you. To think that Fat Tony Scalia and his buddies on the Supreme Court gave you guys the gift of a lifetime with the Heller decision a few months ago---and you got about one day of gloating contentment out of it, before reverting right back to the same old bitching, moaning and Democrat trashing. Heller might as well have never happened from the way you're carrying on; talk about ingratitude. No surprises here---you're single-issue obsessives, and like all single-issue obsessives, you're never happy, never satisfied. And God knows, you're never any fun to be around.....

[rangersmith82]

13. The problem is the President elect keeps give them ammo....

It hard to argue with the right wingers when Our new leader has this on change.gov

Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

Then again he said the expired AW ban will be permenent...

Does this mean it will be permanently expired???

How can you convince people he will not try and ban their hobby when its in black and white on his web page???

If our President elect would just come out and say:

I as the President will enforce current laws and seek to stop any more infringement on gun ownership rights.

If he would do this the NRA would lose their power and no longer be a problem to our party.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Blaming the victim, eh?

Let's not pretend the NRA isn't really upset because he's black.

[rangersmith82]

19. You are correct, but they will never come out and say it

The problem is they will use the President Elect stance on assault Weapons against him.

If he would just drop it they would be nothing with out their your gonna lose your rifles scare tactic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. "If he would just drop it "

He has dropped it.

The only thing left is their loony conspirayc theories.

[rangersmith82]

24. No he hasnt....

Its still on his webpage....

http://change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy_agenda/


Here is what it says....

Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

The statement alone is the reason everyone is panic buying.

The gun owners are deathly affraid of these types of guns being banned.

A AR-15 when you can even find one for sale has went from $800 to $1500.

They are buying these things faster than they can be made.

If President Obama would just strike the last statement and publicly say: "I will not ban Semi Auto rifles/Assault Weapons" the madness will stop.

Until that time, expect things to get worse.

[EOTE]

40. I fail to see anything wrong with anything listed there.

I just read up on the Tiahrt Amendment and it seems like an awful piece of legislation made by an awful, POS conservative. I've included a wiki link to the guy if you'd like to read up on this asshole. And the AWB won't ban anyone's hobby. Just get yourself a gun not listed in the AWB, is that so freaking difficult? Are those little accouterments so incredibly important to you? Is it not enough that you be able to blow shit up with impunity?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Tiahrt

[slackmaster]

45. The problem with "get yourself a gun not listed in the AWB" is that there is no AWB

And at least one of the potential ones, HR 1022, lists historic, collectable firearms like the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine which are owned by millions of people. Not to mention sporting firearms like the Ruger Mini 14, Ranch Rifle, Mini 30, and the Remington 1100 shotgun which are also owned by millions of people.

The tabula rasa that is the AWB "list" is ripe for misinterpretation and paranoia.

[EOTE]

47. There was one, correct?

If so, if they were to resurrect it, that would be the one. Were people so incredibly deprived of guns when it existed?

[slackmaster]

49. The old one included a specific implementation date and a 10-year sunset clause

Resurrecting it would make no logical sense.

Were people so incredibly deprived of guns when it existed?

No, but it didn't do any good either.

[EOTE]

50. OK, so if Obama says he'd like to resurrect it, that's what he's referring to.

You can argue the merits of the bill, but I don't think anything would be terribly confusing. The AWB ban existed and gun owners were still able to shoot at as much stuff as they wanted. They just couldn't do it with fancy accouterments on their guns. No big loss.

[slackmaster]

51. The "loss" was one of choice, of liberty

It may seem like a small loss to you and many others, but the fact that nothing was given in return for it (e.g. increased public safety?) made it inherently bad.

[EOTE]

74. I believe in a truly free society, you shouldn't need a reason to make something legal.

You should need a very good reason for making something illegal, however. So I agree that there should be a very good reason for the AWB. So do you have any information regarding the ineffectiveness of the AWB? If you can show me something that suggeats that it has done nothing to increase the public safety, then I'd agree with you that it shouldn't be pursued in the future, certainly as it existed then.

[slackmaster]

78. Supporters of the AWB had 10 years to gather data to make a case for renewing it

When September 2004 came around, they showed up empty-handed.

Most of the firearms stigmatized as "AWs" are rifles, which have always been used in less than 3% of gun-related crimes.

Firearm-related crimes had already started to fall off a peak before the AWB took effect, and its expiration is not correlated in any obvious increase in fatal or non-fatal firearm injuries, or crimes in which firearms are used.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

One possible issue with the statistics is the FBI never made any effort to track crimes committed with "assault weapons" - It classifies firearms as pistols, rifles, and shotguns (and the occasional unregistered machinegun).

[EOTE]

79. From the link you provided, it looks like gun crime did increase in 2005.

It also seems as if gun crime increased in 2006 as well. I know that's anecdotal and doesn't necessarily mean all that much, but I think it would be something to look into. What I'm even more interested in is that huge peak that occurs in 1994 or so. Do you know what is thought to have caused that sudden rise in the late 80s and early 90s, and more importantly, what caused the rapid decline afterwards. Off the bat, I'd assume it was due to the economic conditions of the time, but it seems unlikely that that alone would cause a nearly 50% increase in gun crime within a mere 4 years.

[slackmaster]

94. Crime rates are closely tied to the condition of the economy

The late '80s and early '90s was a period of great turmoil - High interest rates, the S&L "crisis", etc. In the early 2000s it was the collapse of the dot com bubble.

Off the bat, I'd assume it was due to the economic conditions of the time, but it seems unlikely that that alone would cause a nearly 50% increase in gun crime within a mere 4 years.

Probably not, but it sure as heck didn't have anything to do with gun control laws. (Particularly the AWB - As has been discussed many times here, gun manufacturers largely got around it by reconfiguring their products, and the high-capacity magazines that could not be manufactured or imported were already present in very large numbers.)

[EOTE]

95. Then what was it then?

I agree that it's unlikely that all of that decline was due to the AWB (which was enacted immediately prior to this large decline in gun violence) and that a large amount of it seems likely due to economic conditions. However, I don't believe that the AWB can be completely ruled out as a factor. Not knowing much else, looking at that graph, you can see a large decrease in gun violence immediately after the AWB was passed, then a steady gain in gun violence immediately after it was repealed in 2004. From 2004 to 2005, the percentage of violent crimes involving guns jumped 50% from 6 to 9%. I think it's unfortunate that gun manufacturers made a mockery of the ban by making modified versions of their guns to skirt the bans, but it still seems that in spite of that, the ban did at least something to prevent gun violence. And if lives were saved for such a small sacrifice, then I just can't see it as being all that bad.

[slackmaster]

99. Let's follow proud DU tradition and blame the rise in crime on Bush and the Republicans

:hi:

Or perhaps there was a change in reporting methods.

I think it's unfortunate that gun manufacturers made a mockery of the ban by making modified versions of their guns to skirt the bans...

From their perspective, they were keeping their people employed and fulfilling a legitimate demand in the market.

but it still seems that in spite of that, the ban did at least something to prevent gun violence...

Did it? I haven't seen a shred of verifiable evidence to support that claim.

[zbdent]

14. and yet it was under Bush that they were confiscating guns in N'awrleans ...

[unpossibles]

16. yeah, but Bush is not ...

...a "scary" black man with a strange name.

Oh, he's scary to you and me, but not to these clowns. This is like the huckster sales pitch of "hey, I got a guy coming down to buy this at 5, so you better act now!"

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. Exactly right!

[rangersmith82]

25. Yea and we saw the outrage over the New Orleans gun grab...

We as a party should never follow in Bush's footsteps.

We are a party of Change and Freedom.

We should never follow the repubs or restict the rigts of our citizens.

[Thothmes]

43. It was the New Orleans PD

[michreject]

21. I'm going to the gun show in Birch Run on Friday

I'll see how it is live and in person.

[ogneopasno]

23. Meh -- the NRA is becoming more and more irrelevant.

According to the Brady Campaign:

In head-to-head races between candidates endorsed or “A” rated by the NRA and candidates endorsed by the Brady Campaign, Brady candidates won more than 80 percent (including eight of eight U.S. Senate races).
The NRA spent over 90 percent of its independent expenditures in Senate races on losing candidates (for elections called as of this morning).

[rangersmith82]

26. And this will continue unless..

we renew the AW ban.

If we do this it will give the NRA power and a new purpose.

If we do this I fear we will lose congress just like we did in 2011.

[NoGOPZone]

42. We lost the Congress in 2011?

What other tales from the future you got? Any Powerball results?

[rangersmith82]

107. sorry

I meant 1994.

If we allow another AWB, I fear we will lose control of congress.

This happened in 1994, due to the AWB we lost control of the House and Congress for 12 yrs.

[KillCapitalism]

27. The nuts need to be removed from the NRA.

Take out the crazies & I think you'd have a decent organization.

Not too long back there were some in the NRA trying to argue that people should be able to own RPG's, chemical, and biological weapons.

Yeah...like someone's going to deer hunt with a bazooka, some VX gas, or some Ebola virus.

[slackmaster]

46. I guess you could encourage reasonable people to join it and vote the crazies out

It takes five years of annual dues to become a voting member IIRC.

[rangersmith82]

111. source???

I don't think the NRA would be stupid enough to say everyone can have grenade Launchers...

[tabbycat31]

28. my dad's a member

and I've read his magazines. I think that the writer was jerking off when the article on Sarah Palin was being written. I read the last one endorsing all the candidates, and I had to stop. NEver before have I seen such partisan shit. I think I'd rather watch Faux Noise.

FTR he does not own any current firearms. He collects Civil War era weapons. And he does go to the shows, but he dosen't dare mention his political affiliation (Democrat his whole life, he instilled his political beliefs in one of his 2 daughters). I gave him an Obama sticker for the car, but he declined to put it on because of gun shows that he attends frequently.

I've never handled a gun and have no intention of doing so. The only way I would have a gun in my house would be if I married someone who's job requires one.

[-..__...]

29. "What we got here is... failure to communicate".

"Some men people you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week have here right now, which is the way he you want it... well, he you get it. I don't like it any more than you men people".

Folks... I just don't get it.

Why is this gun control crap such a hot and heavy issue with some of you?

There are 10 amendemnts to the Bill of Rights... not 9.

The more you raise it's ugly head, the more the NRA, myself and other gun owners are going to shove it right back in your face.

Think gay marriage/rights is a hot topic on the move and with some clout?

Start fucking around with the 2nd amendment/RKBA if you want to see some real backlash and repercussions.

You want to diffuse the NRA and it's goals?... Just give it a rest already.

[ContinentalOp]

30. Yes, let's compare people's basic civil rights with the right to own any deadly weapon you please.

Because let's face it, that's the issue here. The "second amendment supporters" are like free market zealots. They are never happy with any compromise. They believe that the right to bear arms is absolute. If the AWB were taken off the table they would be trying to repeal the ban of machine guns, then chemical weapons, then nuclear weapons. It's not about reason, it's about a fundamentalist ideology.

[-..__...]

32. I don't support "compromise" WRT to civil rights or gun control.

Do you?

Should gay rights activists compromise and accept civil unions?

Why should gun owners compromise on their rights?... and let me refine that a bit... the RKBA applies to all Americans, not just gun owners.

Whether or not one chooses to exercise that right is up to them

Your strawman examples are typical of the gun grabber mentality. :eyes: :silly: :crazy:

Chemical weapons... nuclear weapons. Where the fuck do you people come up with this shit?

I mean for real.

So... let's "compromise" with the anti-rkba crowd, shall we?

They have a serious hard-on for the AWB (why, I don't know.. actually I do know, but that's another story).

They also have on the platter closing the "gunshow loophole" and requiring trigger locks.

So, they get that. Now what else do they want?

Licensing...

Registration...

Ammo bans...

Ammo/firearm serialization...

One gun per month...

Waiting periods...

but, that's all "reasonable"... correct?

"Compromise"? I think not.

See'ya in court or at the ballot box.

[PeaceNikki]

63. The more frightening thing is the propaganda they push on people.

It's more of the same old FEAR!! FEAR!! FEAR!! FEAR!! FEAR!! bullshit the GOP has been pushing for forever.

Fuck the NRA. They are no more than the marketing division of the gun manufacturers.

[trollybob]

33. This country is so culturally divided,

on the one hand, you have the sophisticated well-educated, intellectual types with common sense, and on the other, ignorant rednecks who drink Pabst Blue Ribbon, watch Nascar, think Toby Keith is a musical genius, voted for G.W.Bush (twice), love war, and just GOTTA HAVE THEIR GUNS!!

[spin]

35. So stereotyping is a mark of a well educated person?

Assuming you didn't forget the sarcasm tag, I have a simple question for you.

How many gun owners do you personally know?

edited to add

Welcome to DU.

[trollybob]

106. What's wrong with stereotyping?

sure, it's an exaggeration, but there's still a lot of truth in it. And to answer your question, none. Most of the people I know realize that you're more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than the extremely remote chance that you might actually use a gun to legitimately defend yourself, and they don't see any need to hunt since they can buy all their food at the grocery store.

[rasputin5]

36. You could be joking...or you could be an idiot.

Not at all sure which.

[slackmaster]

44. I like guns, am educated, sophisticated, intellectual, and have common sense

But for some strange reason I don't like any of those other things, especially PBR.

Your post typifies the "Package Deal Fallacy".

[scrinmaster]

37. Maybe if Obama didn't support the Assault Weapons Ban,

the NRA and gun owners wouldn't be so opposed to him.

[walldude]

52. Maybe if NRA members weren't such pussies and could hit their target

without the help of Automatic and Semi-Auto weapons then they wouldn't have a problem. No one needs a fucking Assault Rifle to hunt or to protect their home. Buy a fucking 12 gauge and saw it off.

[aikoaiko]

54. If not done correctly, that sawed off shotgun could be a federal felony

[walldude]

56. Yeah I know, but it has nothing to do with my point.

If you need an assault rifle then your problem isn't Obama, maybe you ought to go learn to fucking shoot.

You doesn't mean you personally... you means person who demands the right to be able to kill many people very fast, like the freepers had to do after the riots on election day :rofl: :rofl:

I got nothing against gun ownership. My dad taught me how to shoot and I never felt like a pistol, a 30-30 or a shotgun wasn't enough.

[aikoaiko]

62. But it does because some people make the same comments about short-barreled shotguns

Why would you need it? :shrug:

An AR15 is an excellent home defense weapon and I'm of the opinion that law abiding civilians should be left to make their own decisions about what long arm is best for them.

[michreject]

58. But it shouldn't be

If handguns are ever made illegal to own, the sawed off shotgun will be the stick up gun of choice. Watch the death toll rise.

[fascisthunter]

55. Thank you

[ManiacJoe]

59. Let us help educate you regarding guns.

Automatic weapons do not help you hit your target; they tend to make you less accurate due to the recoil.

Semi-auto weapons have no characteristics related to the action that would help (or hinder) accuracy.

It is illegal to hunt with an assault rifle due to it being an automatic.

An assault rifle would be a poor choice for home defense due to over-penetration issues. However, an AR15 or other "assault weapon" could be a good choice.

Shotguns are OK for short to medium distances. Sawing off the barrel tends to reduce its usefulness and is usually a federal felony (plus a violation of many state laws).

If you are looking to get into gun safety and/or improve your shooting skills, give the NRA a call as they are the leading organization for both. If you don't like their politics, complain to the NRA-ILA.

[walldude]

66. Since we got locked out of the other thread let me ask again

You seem reasonable. Would you support a law that says you have to be trained and certified in safety of said weapon before being allowed to own one?

Life is about compromise. I don't think we need assault weapons but I am willing to let it go as long as they aren't just handing them out like candy. I know a number of people who love guns but really shouldn't be allowed near them. The image of the 8 year old who couldn't handle an UZI and accidentally shot himself in the head when it recoiled comes to mind.

[ManiacJoe]

80. No, I would not support that.

There is nothing special about "assault weapons" (AKA semi-auto carbines) that requires different restrictions than any other non-automatic rifle. Bolt-action, pump-action, lever-action, semi-auto-action: it is all the same, pull the trigger and one round is fired (and only one round). Semi-auto firearms have been around since the 1890s. There is nothing special here.

A different, but related question, would be "Do I support requiring training and safety certification for the ownership of any firearm?" No, I would not support that, mostly because it is not needed. You can get safe usage of a firearm by reading the owners manual and following the Four Rules of Gun Safety. To become proficient at it, you need practice. If you want quick proficiency, you need training. But "proficiency" is well beyond "safe usage". Unfortunately for humans, just because you have had the training or read the manual does not guarantee you will follow them.

Assault rifles (M16, real AK47, etc) are not "assault weapons" according to any of the common definitions of "assault weapons". Neither are machine guns nor sub-machine guns like the UZI. Because they all can fire multiple rounds per trigger pull, they have been heavily restricted at both the federal and state levels since 1934.

The accident of the 8-year-old with the UZI was just that, an accident although preventable. The owner should have known that the boy was going to have problems with the UZI on full auto (due to characteristics specific to UZIs). The boy probably would have had no trouble with a full-auto M16; probably no trouble with an MP5 (different type of sub-machine gun that the UZI).

Federal laws changed in 1968 defining who is not allowed to possess firearms. Licensed dealers are required to use the NICS check to verify eligibility (plus any other method they want). Private sellers are prohibited from using the NICS check, so they have to use other means for determining the same eligibility. Guns are not handed out like candy. Unfortunately, sellers who violate the law are usually not prosecuted like they should be.

[rangersmith82]

108. nope

I should not need a license to exercise a constitutional right.

Do we have to be certified to use free speech???

Current laws require you to be 18 or older for rifles/21 for handguns, not a felon and to be free from mental illnesses.

That the only restrictions we need.

[JuniperLea]

70. If you are using a gun as self-defense, or house protection...

A shotgun is the perfect choice. Depending on the choke and shot size, you have a lot of stopping power that won't do as much damage. A 410 with light load bird shot and a modified choke is perfect. You wouldn't go out hunting people... you'd be in your own home. There's very little recoil, and you won't blow a hole in your wall. But you will deter someone who has broken into your home.

[aikoaiko]

71. "A 410 with light load bird shot and a modified choke is perfect."??

If can't "won't blow a hole in your wall" it cannot be an effective way to stop a violent criminal.

I'm not saying shotguns are bad, but for the most part I would prefer a 5.56 carbine over a shotgun in almost every home defense situation. And if I did use a shotgun it wouldn't be with anything less that #4 Buck.

[JuniperLea]

75. Have you seen that action in action?

I have. Worked like a charm. By the time the guy knew what hit him, gramps had the old single shot reloaded and had filled the guy's belly with another load.

Some of us do well with larger weapons... the ordinary citizen is something altogether different. I would never suggest a novice gun handler try a 5.56 carbine, or any shotgun large enough for buckshot. The recoil would only add to the terrifying situation.

I'm a 38 or 45 revolver gal myself. I won't shoot anything I can't break down, clean, or fix on the spot.

[aikoaiko]

87. No. but I have seen birdshot in gelatin.

People smarter than me recommend that defensive ammo reach at least 12 inches of gelatin penetration.

Birdshot doesn't even come close.



Honestly, I don't consider pump action or single action shotguns any more difficult to use than an AR15 carbine. They all take some practice in order to be used with ease. Now your revolvers are sublimely simple and yet effective.

[JuniperLea]

101. What is the distance you're talking about?

I'm talking about 5 to 15 feet... inside your own house, like I said.

I saw a guy get knocked to his ass at 10 feet with a 410 loaded with birdshot to the belly. If you're talking yards and yards away, it's not exactly self-defense now, is it? And of course you'd need more fire power if you're shooting at fleeing game or flying clay pigeons. I'm talking close range; self-defense.

[Pavulon]

89. does not meet fbi minimums

for penetration. Shotgun, 12ga pump, using #4 or better is the proper tool for that job.

410 is hard to find and unless in slug form is not lethal on the spot.

[JuniperLea]

103. I'm talking very close range...

Self defense, inside your own house... not chasing someone down. Not more than 15 ft away.

[JuniperLea]

68. I walked into a burger joint about a year ago...

And the young man behind the counter had a big, thick gold chain around his neck. At the bottom of the chain was an AK47 pendant, diamond encrusted. He was a puny little dude, the kind you could knock over with a hearty laugh. I guess he felt ballsier because of his jewelry. I thought he looked exceedingly stupid... and like he probably had a little dick.



They must be popular; this was very easy to find.

No one but the military needs such a thing. It's ludicrous for someone to fight to keep such a thing.

I come from a hunting family, and I have no problem with guns... but this isn't a gun... it's a murder machine.


I'm putting this here because, well, you know:)

[ManiacJoe]

83. Are you referring to the full-auto version

or the civilian semi-auto version? For the full-auto version, I personally would not buy one; but if you can afford to buy it and feed it, more fun to you.

There is nothing special about the semi-auto version. It is just another semi-auto carbine, no more no less. Great for plinking. Good for hunting small to medium game. Very reliable due to its loose construction (which limits its accuracy to about 300 yards).

[aikoaiko]

72. I really don't know where you are getting this "no one needs a....."

Police are trading in their shotguns for AR15s because there are a better choice for dealing with civilian criminal activity.

Police use AR15s to clear houses because they are effective. Why should a law abiding civilian be less armed when facing criminals in their own home?

[jmg257]

97. Life and death? I would take all the help I can get! Worth shooting once? probably worth atleast a

double tap. Semi-autos are great for that!

[Bertha Venation]

41. . . .

:popcorn:

[kwolf68]

48. Cooks

These are the same types who hold up in the hills of Montana...they are fucking psycho nutjobs, totally devoid of any rationale or intellect. They live only for the almighty gun, that ever omnipotent symbol of freedom.

[aikoaiko]

53. I know what you mean. Look at these guys

What's up with this iron stuff? :shrug:

[greguganus]

98. Bobby operates a chuckwagon for militants in the hills of Montana on his days off. n/t

[didact]

104. LMAO*

[lib2DaBone]

60. Too Bad The NRA Gun Nuts were not more concerned with the CONSTITUTION!

[aikoaiko]

73. The 2nd Amendment is a part of the constitution.

There are a single issue organization and the that part of the constitution has been attacked and whittled away like no other.

[walldude]

76. The 2nd Amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms

So when your neighbor gets a nuke, or a scud you will think it's ok right? It's in the Constitution.

[aikoaiko]

82. Do you want to talk about arms or ordnance? We were talking about semiauto rifles, pistols, shotguns

At the time of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they wanted people to own arms suitable for the individual militiaman -- typically a rifle. They didn't really expect people to provide their own ordnance such as cannon.

I am fine with my neighbors owning semiautomatic rifles, shotguns, and pistols --- even those listed in recently proposed AWB.

[Lorien]

93. I think it's time that we defined "arms" once and for all

if we define it by the standards of the framers of the constitution, then muskets would be the only allowable "arms". We need new terminology; handguns, pistols and rifles could be called "arms", while the semi-automatic crap along with the heavier stuff could be called something else- thus ending the idiocy once and for all.

[walldude]

77. Yeah too bad

or they might think the right to "keep and bear arms" meant you could put an atomic bomb in your backyard. :eyes:

[ManiacJoe]

85. But no one thinks that.

:shrug:

[Stump]

61. The NRA may be a bit extreme...

But I'd hate to imagine where we'd be without them. I have to be a member of the NRA, because it makes no goddamn sense to take guns away from the people...criminals will always have weapons. The AWB is a crock of shit and I'd love to see some stats to show it would make a difference...

[PeaceNikki]

64. Are you scared that Obama is going to strip you of your gun rights?

The NRA's propaganda is beyond justification. It's putrid.

[Stump]

65. We'll see...

I don't like the AWB and I'm just glad to know someone (NRA) is there to protect my rights.

[PeaceNikki]

67. Jesus, you drank their kool-aid, didn't you?

By the way, they are only concerned with that one right. That's all they fucking care about. In fact, their efforts directly attack most of our other rights. I, for one, think their existence sucks. They lobby and lie and they're practically a cult.

[Stump]

69. I understand what you're saying...

And if Obama doesn't want to enact the AWB, no biggie, fuck the NRA. But if he does wish to enact any gun bans, I hope the NRA fights it tooth and nail.

[AuntPatsy]

81. Anyone with common sense knows better than to believe such bs....

if one pretends to it is simply because they are choosing to play politics and by shouting such nonsense they believe it helps the repugs....they seem to forget, many dems are gun owners, many and know better....

[Canuckistanian]

86. "take advantage of the hype, as they did in 1994"

And before that, 1977, when Jimmy Carter became president.

This "Democrats will take your guns and Bibles" act is getting old.

But the rubes are still falling for it.

[aikoaiko]

90. "take advantage of the hype, as they did in 1994" except that many guns were banned in 1994

at least many guns with certain configurations and standard capacity magazines for handguns.

[rangersmith82]

116. Yea exactly....

How can we argue over us wanting to ban guns when we put it in black in white on the President elects website???

http://change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy_agenda/


Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

[Mister Ed]

88. My gun-owning brother-in-law says NRA stopped representing gun owners years ago...

...and now they're only about money and power.

My gun-owning brother-in-law's pretty smart.

[jmg257]

96. Money and power can be a good thing - especially when lobbying in Washington. nt

[Mister Ed]

105. I guess his point was that money and power have become their raison d'etre

and that they've forgotten all about the gun owners for whom they once advocated.

[elshiva]

91. An ad in the Washington Post read, ?GET YOUR GUNS WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!?

Great selling point! That will certainly make people buy more guns. "Limited Supply Is NEARLY GONE, BUY NOW!"

[LanternWaste]

100. NRA: Sells the fear and reaps the profits...

NRA: Sells the fear and reaps the profits.

Evidence that bumper-sticker philosophies and dime-store allegories are all the rage with the half-educated, knuckle-dragging, Australopithecus crowd brought up on a steady diet of god, guns, and gays...

[rangersmith82]

109. And yet...

We give them ammo to use against us.

Once again if we would drop our anti gun agenda the NRA would have no relevance and they would be forgotten.

As long as their is a potential AWB in the future they will profit from gun owners fear.

If you don't collect or own Military type rifles you will never understand the fear gun owners go through over this potential ban.

The AWB to gun owners is what a Gay marriage ban is to Gay couples.

I say let gay couples marry and drop all future gun legislation.

They are many other more important issues to worry about.

[rangersmith82]

112. Why does everyone think gun owners are stupid knuckledraggers???

I'm a gun owner, so now i'm a stupid knuckle dragger because I don't want my rifles banned???

Very progressive of you...

Why should any American have to give up any of our rights???

I guess us Democrat gun owners are just a bunch of hillbillies watching Nascar and cleaning our rifles.

[janx]

113. I think that person was talking about the NRA, not gun owners.

The NRA is ridiculous.

[slackmaster]

114. Yes, NRA accounts for less than 5% of gun owners

Most of us are really very nice, once you get to know us.

[janx]

115. One of the lowest things the NRA does is send mail to KIDS

saying that the government is going to take their guns away. KIDS! When my daughter was in her shooting phase, the NRA mailed her that stuff on a regular basis.

I'm not a gun owner currently, though I have been, and I never got that stuff in the mail, but she did!

[yodoobo]

117. Its ok,. Obama will have the last laugh

My prediction is that 2009 will be a very bad year for the NRA.

I can hardly wait.