Doctors: Terrorists' Torture of Jewish Victims 'Beyond Words'

[breadandwine]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128629

[bunkerbuster1]

1. Please read the article, but not the comments.

The article is stomach churning enough.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. Okay, read both. I was under the impression that devout Jews

would not allow autopsies and that most medical examiners knew this? If they knew enough to identify the bodies as belonging to a Jew, why did they autopsy them?

:shrug:

[bunkerbuster1]

4. You don't need to do an autopsy to know that bodies have been tortured.

There must have been very obvious wounds.

I know that the preferred method of torture among some Iraqi groups is the cordless drill, for example.

[Midlodemocrat]

6. You're right. I read 'post mortem' and didn't realize they meant the autopsy

on the terrorists, and not the hostages. Sorry.

[NutmegYankee]

26. May be like many US localities - It's the law to perform one.

Regardless of faith.

[cali]

3. I read it. it doesn't sound like fact. no mention of what unspeakable

torture consists of. the quotes sound made up. And your source is from the far, far right.

What happened was tragic, but this just sounds like inflammatory garbage.

[bunkerbuster1]

5. It could be propaganda.

I'm looking at this as an early report; I will be interested to see if it's backed up by other sources.

[YOY]

8. Totally.

I highly wonder how much time they had in a heated seige to torture them so.

[breadandwine]

14. Yoy, your argument could also be applied to World War II.

How could the Nazis kill all those Jews while they were in the middle of a World War and all?

But they did. They diverted many trains that could have been used to move German troops and supplies and used them to transport Jews to the gas chambers.

There were Jews who had obtained detailed plans of Auschwitz, the biggest of the death camps, and gave them to the US and England, but were told that the camps could not be bombed "owing to the very great technical difficulties."

It was later charged that the real reason was that it was considered that if Hitler was diverting forces and material for killing Jews, it would be a waste of his forces and resources, and thus help the Allies win.

For their part the Germans had a running joke that they could protect from Allied attack any train transporting war supplies and troops simply by writing on the train, "This train is shipping Jews to the gas chambers."

At any rate, nobody disputes that the Jewish hostages were tied up. Not too hard to do some rotten things to them under the circumstances.

Also, the Israelis criticized the Indians for the slow pace of the fight over the Chabad House. It went on for hours. That's really not how you stop terrorists from doing what they want to do to hostages. I realize there were very extenuating circumstances for the Indians, the terrorists had grenades, for instance. But the Indian advance was extremely slow by the standards used by the Israelis. A plan is needed to get in fast and use shock and move like lightning if the hostages are to be kept alive.

Also, the Indians were originally focussed on the hotels and the alarm regarding the Chabad House was at first sounded by Chabadniks outside the country who tried to reach the Mumbai rabbi and couldn't get through. Even then, there were people in the area who called the police and only after something like a half hour did the police arrive at the Chabad House. That's a half hour after people called the police, not a half hour after the terrorists took over the Chabad House.

The terrorists had time to do stuff before the security forces arrived. There was then a delay of many hours before security decided to land on the roof. And then they had time to do stuff even after security forces landed on the roof because the security forces took hours even from there, slowly going from room to room and floor to floor.

You could take your argument even further. Since the terrorists were so busy, how did they even have time to kill the hostages?

For that matter, since the terrorists were so busy, how did they have time to make telephone calls to the media from the Chabad House? One of the calls was made on the rabbi's cell phone and his phone number was actually posted on a Chabad news website, in a community that knew his number. Are we going to say that in the middle of all this, the Hassidim were also making up propaganda about which phone was used? Anyone who would believe that doesn't know Chabad.

The calls were rather lengthy too, with the reporter asking questions, the terrorist giving his name, being evasive about some things and candid about others. He told the reporter his age, gave similar information about his comrades, their general ages, that is, not their names, though he also said how many comrades he had with him. He made political comments. Gave demands. If he had no time, how did he have time to do all that? A transcript of the phone call was furnished by the Indian news organization that got the call and it's pretty lengthy for someone who had no time.

Also, an Indian news organization reported that before the terrorists took over the Chabad House they were in a grocery store in the neighborhood and bought a lot of supplies, enough to last for three days, according to one grocer, including a large amount of almonds and a lot of chicken. Sounds like they anticipated having time to eat. If it was 3 days food, they anticipated being able to hold off the Indian authorities for a long time and they did.

[YOY]

15. I hate World War II comparisons.

Especially when the comparison is so inapt. A more subtle form of Godwin's law at best.

Your long spiel in essence is comparing me a holocaust denier because I am skeptic of the source and the 3 day situation giving enough time for one of the terrorists to be a dedicated torturer...and without the usual accoutrement's of torture. Sorry, I'm not biting with 100% confidence until I hear it from a source that I trust. I am not saying it not possible, but not as plausible as it could be.

They always seem to come from a certain wing too...

[breadandwine]

17. Yoy, before you call me "inapt" as you put it, learn to spell "inept."

The terrorists had 3 days you say? Hm. You seem to be quite aware of how much time they had.

Although I spoke about denial, I definitely did not call you a "Holocaust denier."

I give up. Are you one?

Or is this a straw man on your part.

We'll learn more in the coming days. The real issue is why you are so sensitive about an allegation against people who obviously committed the most heinous of crimes targeting innocent people in a Jewish house of worship. The religious identity of the victims was obviously part of the terrorists' phobia, nobody disputes this. Why are you so touchy about this?

[YOY]

20. No, the real issues is the source.

That's wht I am touchy about.

[breadandwine]

24. Yoy, LeftishBrit has a second source for this story.

Here---

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30mumterror-doctors-shocked-at-hostagess-torture.htm

But let me give you a teaching from the Hassidim. "You can learn from every man."

[YOY]

27. Oh, I'll take his source well over yours. However, I would like to see more.

If I may reverse quote by the wisdome of Robert Louis Stevenson: "Everyone lives by selling something."

Right wing media of all breeds sells news with emotion. I like my news non-emotional.

[cali]

28. so what? What do you know about that source? Are they just

reprinting the story? It's word for word the same story. And sorry, this story stinks. There's not one specific in it and the quotes sound just strange.

What happened- the targeting of these folks because they were Jewish is awful enough without people immediately jumping to some conclusion that as of now does not have any substantiation.

And what some people have to teach us is that they aren't trustworthy. That's my response to your saying.

[breadandwine]

33. Yoy, let me see if I understand this. You are troubled by Holocaust comparisons

and you don't like peddlers.

Have I left anything out?

[YOY]

35. breadandwine, let me see if I understand this.

You have no idea what a right wing rag is and does and you have trouble understanding the reply button.

This and you bring the Holocaust (the Jewish one from WWII...there are many more that are sadly overlooked, Cambodia comes to mind as does Stalinist Russia's purges) into a discussion where it is not fitting (inapt)...a form of Godwin's law to say the least. Trying to bait people into admitting Antisemitism much?

And it's YOY not Yoy.

[breadandwine]

36. YOY, this too is a straw man.

The source is now not an issue because as Leftish Brit pointed out, a separate source, from India, said the same thing.

It really sounds like you are trying to use somebody you don't like as an excuse to be evasive about a calamity that is absolutely inexcusable and which was witnessed by the whole world.

These murderers showed up with bags of hand grenades and were murdering civilians all over the place. Will you deny that also? Are you going to spend this whole thread bellyaching about a website you don't like after this horrendous act of hate?

Here's what you're saying. A group of bigoted hate-filled butchers committed a horrendous massacre. But never mind that. I don't like a website.

Aren't we being a little callous and petty here?

And sorry I called you "Yoy" instead of "YOY."

Apparently you're the real victim.

[YOY]

37. Who's denying the whole act?

I want to see it in on a press venue I trust a bit more. The New York Times? Le Monde? Hell, even the Financial Times.

Don't trust Right wing news sources. They are not newsworthy. It's not my personal gripe or bellyaching. Don't trust Right wing new sources. It's like going to Fox news for that right "spin" on things.

If you are looking for people who believe 100% what is initially in RW media sites and publications, you are in the wrong place.

[breadandwine]

38. So you only trust the mainstream media, YOY.

But you're telling me I'M in the wrong place?

[YOY]

40. No, just the parts into telling facts with no spin.

You are in the wrong place to post RW newslinks. Post some more right wing media and this will prove itself if you don't believe me.

[breadandwine]

42. So, YOY, you don't like Holocaust comparisons and peddlers.

And now you're telling me to get out.

Why are you starting to sound familiar, YOY?

[YOY]

43. Quick quibbling on crap and misinterpreting what I am saying on purpose.

and "I" was the one who was putting up strawmen... :eyes:

Post some more RW news and you'll get all the "feedback" on what flies here and what doesn't.

On edit: Peddlers? What a magical tangentland you must live in...

[breadandwine]

45. YOY, news is not right wing or left wing.

It is either true or false. If news you call "RW news" is not true, it is not news at all. You seem to have a view of news as if it is all propaganda. Again, this news is being mentioned also in an Indian news outlet.

I think you are trying to label certain people who have a history of being victims of massacre. Do you think you can just pick them off one at a time?

All over the world millions of Jews, regardless of ideology, are horrified by what happened in Mumbai. Some of them have political beliefs you and I don't share. But all you can think about is going after the messenger.

As for peddlers, you quoted Robert Louis Stevenson: "Everyone lives by selling something." Salesmen are peddlers. You can't just turn people into labels YOY. They are human beings.

You don't have the right to attack someone for reporting the truth simply because you don't like their ideology.

In the midst of a massacre you are obsessed with a website you don't like. Who is the one who is "quibbling"?

[YOY]

46. Wow. Post that theory in GD.

Seriously, post it. I'd really like to see it.

[Kalyke]

21. Um... inapt is a word and it totally fits.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inapt

BTW, your post WAS both inapt and inept. A handful, literally, of terrorists holding hostage an entire building, plus several hostages while battling an entire city of policeman and military is a far cry from several hundreds of thousands of Nazis.

[breadandwine]

34. I stand corrected, Kalyke. Quite right. Inapt is a word, opposite of apt.

However, the issue is not the numbers of people involved in this dastardly act. The hatred involved is a key part of the whole issue. And when people have hate, they can do things that are motivated by it, instead of acting rationally.

[EOTE]

44. "Inapt" is correct, not "inept"

"Inept" means incapable or in certain cases, unsuitable. "Inapt" means inappropriate, which seems like the more 'apt' word to use in this case.

[breadandwine]

18. Delete - system dupe.

...

[breadandwine]

9. A piece of advice. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Also, as for the autopsies, the Indians were trying to do autopsies on the Jews and ZAKA, the Israeli burial and identification society, which had arrived in Mumbai from Israel, was trying to keep the Indians from doing the autopsies, which are forbidden under Jewish tradition. Not sure how much success ZAKA had in this regard. The body should not be further violated under Jewish law. But external examinations can tell an awful lot without violating Jewish law.

In any case, the outside world knows very little about the traditional Jewish world. Some years ago there was a big Hassidic wedding in New York that made the papers. Long Island Newsday had a picture captioned, "Hassidic girls waiting for the day when they too will get married." The only problem was that the picture was of Hassidic boys at the wedding wearing traditional earlocks or "peyos."

The point is, any outsider can talk about autopsies and think they know something when what really happened may have been much more subtle. Probably doctors saw the bodies externally and third hand somebody said "autopsies."

Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov, the founder of Hassidism, once said, "I said one thing, you heard a second and you wrote a third. You thought you heard what I didn't say."

[cali]

10. sorry, I don't buy anything this vague it's stupid to do that.

You want to believe this, fine. I don't buy crap from right wingnut sources without corroboration. And the source you posted from is a wingnut source.

[LeftishBrit]

11. IsraelNationalNews is a crappy religious-right rag; but this is also reported in Indian newspapers

www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30mumterror-doctors-shocked-at-hostagess-torture.htm

[cali]

12. yeah, but what's the genesis of the article- which c'mon

has no specifics and reads like propaganda.

[LeftishBrit]

13. Not clear where it started, I agree that all atrocity stories need to be taken with some caution ...

until we know all the facts. And IsraelNationalNews is certainly not a reliable source, as stated above.

Even just going on the basis of what is definitely known, it's all pretty horrifying, however.

[YOY]

7. Hmm...not too familiar with the souce.

n.t.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

16. How long

before corpulent, pussel-gutted fundie shyster John Hagee starts using this story to bolster his claim that "Gawd is driving His Chosen People back to their own land?" After all, that's what he said about you-know-who with the Chaplin-stache.

Bets?



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[CTyankee]

19. I for one wish that there had been Israeli security forces there, altho it's a stretch to

believe that there could be. If Israeli agents could have protected these innocent people and dispatched the terrorists so they could not kill more people, it would be a good thing.

[breadandwine]

22. Agreed. Israeli security understands lightning speed.

They are known for making full-scale mockups of the hostage site and then practicing the commando rescue operation down to the last split second.

[Kalyke]

23. Why would Israeli security forces be in India????

[breadandwine]

25. Some Israel security went there because the terrorists were targeting Israelis and Jews.

People have a right to protect their own. Got it?

[cali]

30. uh, the state of India has the right to

refuse entry to foreign nationals- and certainly to the armed forces of another country?

Got it?

[breadandwine]

32. Cali, Israeli security did not do anything India asked them not to do.

There are also reports that there were consultations amidst the crisis between Israel and India over the situation, since it involved Israelis and Jews.

And don't confuse Israeli security personnel with "the armed forces of another country." Not the same thing. There were consultations between the two countries. Everyone was trying to figure out what to do.

[CTyankee]

31. Good. I didn't know that.

These guys don't mess around. It's the only way sometimes...unfortunate, but true, and the hatred of Jews surpasses all rational thought.

[DS1]

39. Pre-emptive anti-terrorism

where have I heard that before?

[breadandwine]

41. DSI, some Israeli security showed up for this hostage crisis --- after it started.

Generic comments can be a mistake.

[CTyankee]

29. Well, I said it was a stretch to think they would. I was just hypothesizing

if the HAD had a presence, they would have effectively taken out these terrorists. They are well trained and precise. I would not want to be one of the terrorists if Israeli agents had me cornered...