Is this really true regarding the prius?

[FormerDem06]

A friend of mine who bought a scion sent it to me. It's from a college newspaper but it could have some validity to it. I apologize if it's been posted before, I went back several pages looking for it.


http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188


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The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
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Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.
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All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?
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[Beaverhausen]

1. No

the group who did the 'research' that this editorial is based on is an automobile industry market research group - http://cnwmr.com

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlipperySlope]

2. Yes

Unfortunately, the prius is no panacea.

[demobabe]

3. I don't know, but I'd like to know...

This is the big question with all alternative methods of energy: how much impact do they end up having on the enviroment, including their production and disposal?

Like Nuclear power, which has always been considered the most dirty form of energy because of what to do with nuclear waste. Now I see threads saying it's a better option than other alternative energy sources, and that scares me to death.

So many questions.

[Touchdown]

4. They always talk about the up usage of any

alternate fuel/electirc/hybrid car compared to just the plain gas usage of a regular ICE car. It's apples and oranges.

We could also talk about the plastics plant that make the Hummer's dashboards, the tool and dye emissions that forge the engines, bauxite mines aren't known to be the cleanest places in the world, and that is needed for the almost twice the sheet aluminum for the Hummer that a Prius would use, the coal fired power that it takes to run an oil refinery to make the gasoline and lubricants that the Hummer require...Oh and I'm sure that the leather seats weren't made from free range cattle either.

[redqueen]

6. Yup... in summary, it's crap.

Love your sig. :hi:

[Beaverhausen]

5. Here is some info disputing this editorial

granted, it's from a blog, but it points out several fallacies in the research:

"it's garbage. the approx. battery lifetime of the Prius batteries is 100k ... the lifetime of the car itself is significantly higher (on par w/ a Corolla).

the lifetime of a Hummer is not 300k... according to consumer reports, Hummers are terrible in the defect/maintenance area, and therefore have a high maintenance cost. Also on CR, the Prius has a very low maintenance cost, save the $3k every 100k miles for battery replacement.

those numbers are cooked up because you need a 3:1 "correction factor" to try to make the numbers show that a Hummer is cost-competitive to a Prius... put in a real ratio (very close to 1:1) and you get the real story. "

read more here
http://stevenwandrews.newsvine.com/_news/2007/03/15/615456-prius-outdoes-hummer-in-environmental-damage

[madokie]

7. amazing how these things such as this can be asked so many times

to be debunked only to raise again

[kiahzero]

8. Check out the comments on Slashdot

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/20/1858204

[Iwasthere]

9. BS !! all BS!!

Geesh! Wake up! Obvious BS. My wife and I drive less than 40 miles day. I have an echo (40 mph) now but am hoping Toyota offers the plug in version soon so that I can get unlimited mileage (in town). The gas station will rarely see me unless I go on a trip. And don't give me that BS about power grid useage. I will be charging my batteries from solar, 100% off the grid. Sick of all the lies and the people buying those lies.

[endarkenment]

10. CNW Marketing Research report: dubious at best.

Just because crap gets recirculated doesn' mean its not crap.

As others pointed out: they focus on manufacturing costs and ignore use costs.

[CabalPowered]

11. A Hummer lasting 300k and a Prius only lasting 100k miles ??!!

Those are absurd assumptions. I know Prii nearing 100k and still not a single problem.

There is some truth to the battery argument but if you were to do a full-cost accounting of both vehicles, the Prius is going to win on both sides of the equation, by a long shot.

[DaveJ]

12. Yeah that 100K remark makes the article seem dubious

I had to go through and find it...

"Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles"

"The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. "

They're obviously referring to the battery life, but nevertheless the 100k lifetime statement is a lie. If the writers of this article ever did legitimate research, that was evaluated by an academic committee, they would know that this does not qualify.

[kiahzero]

28. That doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

That would mean that the Prius costs $325,000.

[Sammy Pepys]

13. I think that's a big time stretch, but...

...while I'm kind of intrigued by vehicles like the Prius, I don't think they're all that much better for the environment than a normal vehicle but more like a novelty. I think we need to look at alternative fuels vehicles to really make an impact.

[onenote]

14. Call major BS

Yes, the mining of nickel around Sudbury created something of an environmental wasteland -- so much so that NASA used it for testing moon rovers -- FORTY YEARS AGO!

In the 70s there was a major -- indeed historic -- regreening effort undertaken in Sudbury. Over 3 million trees have been planted, new mining and smelting techniques adopted, and the place is anything but a wasteland.

CHeck out the town's website: http://www.city.greatersudbury.on.ca/cms/index.cfm?app=home_cgs&lang=en

[lectrobyte]

15. The article is an old one that was written by a marketing firm

with big 3 connections. If you track down the original, they also estimated that a conventional Honda Civic and a conventional Ford Focus were also worse than a Hummer, which just seems nonsensical.

I guess if you assume that a Prius is basically thrown away at 100K miles and things such as batteries are not recycled, and that a Hummer will last for 300K miles, then you can make a case like CMW does. I fully expect the battery packs will be recycled, after all, plain old lead-acid car batteries are one of the more recycled parts, and with a $200 bounty on the Prius's NiMh battery packs, I don't think they are likely to be a problem.

As for the mine, Toyota purchases 1% of the nickel produced by INCO. All of the sudden this 1% has raped the environment around Ontario, even though this company has been producing Ni for over a century? Sure.

[Touchdown]

21. The 2009 model Prius will have Lithium Ion batteries

...Toyota is boasting a 90 MPG from their next gen Prius, and a battery life for the LIon batteries to be in the 200-400k mile range...longer than the projected life of the car.

So there's two more of their dubious arguments that fly out the window.

And rubber? You could have 8 Prius tires for as much rubber that is used for 4 Hummer tires.

[Schema Thing]

16. 10 years from now

I'll wager that there will be a hell of a lot more Prius' on the road with 200-300k miles than there are Hummers, at least by percentage of total manufactured.

[gravity]

17. I don't know if the prius is more less ecofriendly than the hummer

but a small car of similar compacity is probably more environmentally friendly.

Much of the price premium paid in hybrid cars is for the increase input energy required to produce it.

[lectrobyte]

22. I don't follow. The CVT and motor-generator in the Prius

have fewer moving parts than a conventional car with its alternator, starter motor and automatic transmission. The battery pack is extra, but it's only 100 pounds or so, so how much "energy input" is there for that?

[gravity]

24. Because it requires energy to mine the materials

for the battery backs and produce the materials made to build the car. More exotic materials usually require more energy to produce.

I'm not an expert on this, so I can't give concrete numbers, but input energy is an important factor when choosing a eco friendly vehicle, which is often overlooked.

[lectrobyte]

27. True. But nickel is hardly an exotic material. Lots of it used in cars

already. And the Prius weighs roughly the same as most other small cars.

[LSK]

18. check out this rebuttal

http://emma.brocknet.net/wordpress/?p=641

[supernova]

19. About the nickel, here's the thing

Marketing firm origins aside, let's say the article is correct and that nickel mining is a problem. Is/would Toyota be the world's worst consumers of nickel? Aren't there many other applications of nickel in manufacturing than batteries? My point is you would have to compare nickel consumption in the auto industry to other manufacturing applications in order to make a viable argument that it's mainly Toyota's fault that nickel mining is a problem. This article doesn't bother to point that out.

[lectrobyte]

20. and the fact that the mine in question in Ontario has been there for

over a century. The NiMh battery pack in the Prius is approximately 100 lbs in weight, and probably one of the easier bits to recycle, they have a phone number to call for recycle info, and a $200 bounty on the battery packs. Sorry to drag this on, I bought a Prius two years ago and just get tired of all this FUD about them. If we all drove something that got 50 MPG, then by my calculations we could be off of imported oil. Not to mention all the other "hidden" pollution. Cars like the Prius recover energy in braking that would otherwise be used to grind brake pads into dust, so the car will probably never need a brake job.

[gravity]

23. The argument is about cars

It's Toyota's fault that they use nickle in their batteries. If it is less environmentally friendly producing hybrids than other comparable cars, then it is a problem. Buying a hybrid compared to a non hybrid car would be hurting the environment more.

Comparing between industries is like comparing between apples and oranges, its pointless. You have to compare it to similar products that are substitutes for each other to make a valid argument.

[lectrobyte]

25. I guess. Toyota uses approx. 1% of INCO's output from that mine, and

they recycle the battery packs. Seems like a fair trade off, considering the hydrocarbons saved over the life off the vehicle. We are talking about Nickel here, after all.

[supernova]

33. Actually the "argument"

is about whether the nickel mined to make batteries for Prius's is environmentally significant. My point is you can't tell that from this article. And it's in the authors' best interest to NOT tell you that. The article makes it sound like this is a mine that they just opened up yesterday especially for Prius batteries. Clearly not true.

[Canuckistanian]

41. Stainless steel is the most common use for nickel

Battery production is WAY down on the list.

[supernova]

43. Thank you for answering my question

Canuckistanian. :hi:

Looks like Sudbury has cleaned up in the same way Pittsburgh did. (My mother's family moved to Missouri from Western PA in the 30s to escape the coal dust that settled over everything. Here lungs couldn't take it.)

[Canuckistanian]

44. No probs!

:hi:

[roamer65]

26. No wonder nickel is over $20 a pound now and rising fast.

The demand for NiMH batteries for cars, laptops, general purpose batteries. Canada is even withdrawing their old pure nickel coins from circulation for melt.

[lectrobyte]

30. It's also used in stainless steel. So all these new kitchen appliances

that are stainless steel instead of being painted are probably also increasing demand.

[gravity]

32. True, but...

The point is that toyota uses more than other car manufacturers which is the problem.

I am not going to say which car has the least input energy costs going into it, since I am not qualified to give that sort of answer, but its something worth considering for evaluating the effectiveness of the car has in reducing greenhouse gases.

It could be possible that a standard economy car which gets over 35mpg be more energy effecient than the prius once input energy costs are factored in.

[roamer65]

37. You are correct.

Makes me wonder how long the nickel deposits will last in Sudbury.

[Cant trust em]

29. Lesser of two evils

I really don't like where this argument is taking us, which is "unless something is a 100% perfect solution then it's not worth it". I'm not questioning whether the Prius manufacturing is bad for the environment, I just want to know which is worse, the Priuses or the Hummer. If we're going to wait around for solutions that don't have any drawbacks then we're going to be waiting a long time. Please someone find me some public policy that doesn't have some unintended consequences.

[Canuckistanian]

40. It's a false dichotomy

"America, love it or leave it."

In a false dichotomy (also called a false dilemma, either or, black or white, the missing middle) you are presented with two choices, when in fact there are more than two choices. If one choice is discredited, then the reader is forced to accept the other choice. But this is not an adequate argument, the choice favored must be supported by evidence.

Examples:

"If today is not Tuesday, it must be Wednesday."

"Evolution science is in disarray, so 'creation science' must be right."

http://info-pollution.com/false.htm

[gollygee]

31. It seems like the best environmental choice would be to get a used, gas effecient car

because tons of materials are used to manufacture new vehicles, and it causes pollution to manufacture new cars.

Hummer vs. Prius is kind of a false dichotomy. There are so many other choices. New Prius vs. used Corolla? I'd say the used Corolla would win.

[gravity]

34. Exactly

You can't compare a hummer and a Prius, since they are intended for completely different uses.

You should compare a prius to a corrola to get an accurate picture, and the hummer to another SUV.

[roamer65]

39. Plus, there should be a tax credit for anyone who buys any car that gets 35mpg or higher.

[PerfectSage]

35. The Sudbury of today is not the same as the 60's/70's

Inco scrubs all the sulfer dioxide out of the smokestacks and converts it to sulfuric acid and sells it. They been reforesting Sudbury since the 80's but some parts(hill sides) are still to toxic to grow trees.

http://www.city.greatersudbury.on.ca/cms/index.cfm?app=div_landreclamation&lang=en&currID=4035&parID=0


Before:

After:

[Canuckistanian]

38. The damage to Sudbury's landscape happened several generations ago

It was the result of unregulated small mining operations that burned individual kilns for extracting nickel and copper.

Here's an explanation:

As early as 1856, surveyors detected the presence of copper and nickel in the Sudbury area. In 1885, a surveyor discovered the richest deposits of nickel ore in the world. One year later, mining of copper and nickel began in earnest and continues to this day . In these early days, the sulfur was removed from the copper-nickel ore in an "open roast yard", a mound of ore and wood that was kept burning for months before being loaded into a furnace. This process not only stripped the surrounding land of its timber for use as fuel wood, but also increased the frequency of fires. These roast yards, now long abandoned, are believed to have contributed significantly to the barren landscape that has characterized the Sudbury area because of their highly toxic soils. They have also been a source of native vegetation that has acquired variation in nickel and copper tolerance (Hogan et al. 1977).

http://horticulture.coafes.umn.edu/vd/h5015/96papers/msmith.htm

It certainly isn't like that today. The modern smelters at Inco and Falconbridge are much better now, comparable to any modern smelting operation in terms of pollution.

[roamer65]

42. Not to belittle Sudbury's eco damage, but I would bet Elliot Lake is far worse.

All those uranium tailings left over from uranium mining are an ecological and radioactive disaster.

[garybeck]

45. just get a diesel.

run on vegetable oil or biodiesel.

your car will last longer, and pollute less than a prius (and a hummer).