Psssttt... Walmart Has Thousands Of Stores. They All Market Too. They All Had Sales. No One Died.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

Pssssstttttt... Hey, yeah, you, c'mere... Lots of other stores had big sales with big marketing and big crowds and overnight lines too. No one died at them either. Still listening? Maybe it wasn't Walmart's fault, or the marketing, or the sales... Psssssttt... Hey! Don't turn your head... You're gonna listen. You payin attention again? Good. Psssttt..... Maybe, just maybe, it was an isolated incident at an individual location due to a specific unruly and disgraceful crowd that had grown irrational. Maybe it was just them.. ya know, those specific people and stuff, since all the other crowds at all the other tens of thousands of stores across our country that were still lined up overnight and anxiously awaiting big sales just like the L.I. crowd, ya know, didn't manage to kill anybody or crush doors off of hinges or anything.

Pssssssttttt.... Got that? Pass it on.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. This thread has massive potential.

:popcorn:

[lamp_shade]

6. Scootch over....

:popcorn:

[KitchenWitch]

11. Do you have enough for the entire class?

:popcorn:

[madrchsod]

42. i`d bring the drinks but i`m broke till friday

[Fearless]

61. Here...

:toast: :toast: :toast:
:toast: :toast: :toast:
:toast: :toast: :toast:

[Neshanic]

43. Agreed. I am going to take "Obvious for 500" and post below.

[Missy Vixen]

89. I'll make some more, if I can join your party

:popcorn: :popcorn:

I'll even bring the boxed wine.
Julie

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. so then...it was just an accident looking for a place to happen...

how thoughtful of that paticular Wal-Mart to provide the location.

[TahitiNut]

3. Ted Bundy didn't kill everyone he met, either.

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. Please Tell Me You Realize How Asinine Of An Analogy That Is.

[Hissyspit]

5. The owners of the factory in Hamlet, North Carolina only had one incident, too.

Didn't mean they weren't liable.

[Democrats_win]

7. You've got to admit, it's quite an analogy.

An extreme one.

A lot of people consider Wal-Mart's anti-worker policy nothing short of murder: a.k.a. Ted Bundy.

[amdezurik]

23. funny how you ask that

yet seem oblivious on how asinine your OP is...

[TahitiNut]

41. Isn't it though?

:shrug: I guess it takes a special kind of stupid.

[Neshanic]

51. Excellent analogy.

[Javaman]

95. operationmindcrime has a history of being contrary for the sake of being contrary...

I take any and all posts by Mind with a block of salt.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Howardx]

123. i carry a salt lick to all of OMGs threads

no, that's not a typo. OMG fits.

[Grateful for Hope]

115. Yup, sure is. n/t

[yardwork]

57. I thought it was on point, actually.

Here's another analogy you probably won't like - if a drunk driver kills only one car full of people, should we blame the people he hit instead of the drunk? I mean, obviously there was something wrong with the people he hit, since he missed all the other cars on the highway, right?

[ProfessorGAC]

60. Barking Up The Wrong Tree, OMC

The Professor

[Selatius]

80. No more asinine than your OP. nt

[lame54]

99. As asinine as suggesting...

that walmart is not at fault simply because it was an isolated incident

if somebody slipped on the wet floor of a walmart are they not liable because nobody else got hurt in any of their thousands of other stores?

They are still liable

Somebody died on their premises under the conditions they set up - you are pretty quick to clear them of any wrong doing

[cliffordu]

14. BWAhahahHAHha haha AHAH AHAH haha hAh

Perfect.

You could say the same thing for Bush.

Yo, TahitiNut!!

:hi:

[yardwork]

59. Think of all the people still alive after eight years of Bush. What did he do wrong?!

[yardwork]

58. Now you're confusing theis thread with logic!

[ProfessorGAC]

64. Oh, TahitiNut Will Do That

When logic is part and parcel of one's being, that'll happen. Nut is a very logical and reasoned man.
GAC

[TahitiNut]

81. It's a curse.

:dunce:

[Javaman]

94. best responce ever! DUzy for you! nt

[Solon]

8. Having worked at Wal-Mart for a couple of years, I can tell you that most stores lack security...

They even have a specific code that calls all male associates to the front of the store, for security purposes. I remember having to pull two women off each other over the last Furby sold, one attacked the other while she was exiting the store. I got a scratch on my face for my trouble, less than an inch from losing an eye, these types of things are NOT reported in any newspaper or media outlet.

[roguevalley]

86. Remember when the LA stores got caught locking in workers and

treating them like slaves. Even one death is too many, considering that the come on that brought people there was a joke. the op is sad.

[RadiationTherapy]

9. That is some way of communicating you got there...

it's like you don't really want anyone to read what you have to say.

[Lautremont]

10. Oh, thank goodness Wal Mart has found a champion! Psst, psst.

When you're done here, you can start a whisper campaign to rehabilitate Blackwater. There are millions of people in Iraq, and they've killed only a small percentage of them!

[Sonicmedusa]

12. "due to a specific unruly and disgraceful crowd"

Why don't you just come out and say what you mean?...."They stampeded because they are black savages."

[Fumesucker]

22. Yeah, that's pretty much the way I read it too... n/t

[Sonicmedusa]

39. "those specific people and stuff"

You mean like, um, BLACK PEOPLE?

[JonQ]

49. Would you feel better if the crowd had been white?

I think it doesn't matter personally; irresponsible, greedy, and inhumane people come in all shades. Nature is color blind when it comes to handing out the douchebag genes.

I'd say this mob was unruly and disgraceful, not for their race but for their actions.

And again, I'm sure there were groups waiting at walmarts around the country that matched the demographics of the NY one, and no one died at those places.

People are overreacting to this. It was a horrible tragedy, not a broad condemnation of our culture.

[yardwork]

62. It was a totally preventable horrible tragedy. I'm condemning Walmart.

[JonQ]

67. Walmart didn't trample anyone to death

from what I saw their employees tried to stop the stampede but were unable to.

[yardwork]

73. Companies are legally obligated to provide reasonbly safe environments.

Walmart deliberately created a very unsafe environment and did nothing to protect its employees or customers. I hope they get sued to the point where it is much more expensive for every corporation to ignore safety than to ensure it.

[JonQ]

76. They deliberately created an unsafe environment?

By encouraging people to come to their store? Should they stop allowing people to shop there to be safe?

Yes companies have an obligation to provide a safe environment. That doesn't mean that anything that goes wrong on their property is their fault. A person could walk in to a walmart and start blasting away at shoppers. Is it walmarts fault or the shooters? Note, they did not install metal detectors, frisk customers, or put snipers anywhere in the store to deal with this eventuality.

And this is exactly why mobs feel they can act as they do: they get away with it. There is no personal responsibility when you are part of a mob, it's always "the situation", and you couldn't help it.

[yardwork]

83. That dog won't hunt.

Tell it to the jury.

[JonQ]

84. It hasn't gone to court yet

no doubt it will and we will see how it comes out. Of course juries don't always come to the right decision. I still feel people are responsible for their own actions, and blaming on society, the situation, everyone else doesn't change the fact that everyone in that mob whether they are punished by the law or not, has to live the rest of their lives knowing that they had a part in an innocent persons murder. It might make them feel better to say it was all Walmarts fault, and they will of course say that in public, but I imagine in private they must feel a little bit of remorse (the sales couldn't have been that good).

[Ichingcarpenter]

77. They created another one that day at another Wal-Mart with this X-box fight

This could have ended badly and could have easily been averted with cards.

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=230423

[blondeatlast]

85. Because the OP doesn't know that's what he means but that's precisely what he meant.

One has to consciously suppress racism to function effectively in today's society; that's the biggest difference in today and 1957.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. Hmmmmm. That's Interesting.

It's even more interesting being that until this thread, I had no idea the crowd was black (just figured it was a typical crowd makeup). Guess I'm more racist than I thought! I even spew racism when I'm not aware the topic is even racial! WOOOOHOOOO OMC!!!!!

:eyes:

[mudesi]

106. OPERATIONMINDCRIME, I don't think you're a racist

But I have a hard time believing you didn't know the crowd was made up of minorities. It's been reported quite extensively in the MSM as well as here on DU.

[Lautremont]

108. I don't think he's a racist either.

But, as he's just confirmed, he's apparently a guy who likes to post about things he knows virtually nothing about.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Well, FWIW,

Haven't watched an ounce of tv all weekend and just browsed the DU threads, while laughing my ass off at the drama in them.

Had no idea it was a mainly black crowd. Just knew it was a walmart and Long Island. Thinking long island, I had been thinking white actually. But it doesn't much matter to me one way or another. :hi:

[JonQ]

122. If he had known the racial

demographics of this crowd, should he have not posted it? I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

[GodlessBiker]

13. Wal-Mart was negligent in the way it let people into its store and by installing doors that...

could not handle the crowd it hoped would arrive that morning.

Res ipsa loquitur.

[AlCzervik]

16. i read in an article on Bloomberg that the crowd estimates for that location were

around 2,000.

You'd think after a couple of hundred people lined up the management at that store would have hired more security.

[GodlessBiker]

17. Yep. Or hired them from the get-go, knowing their doors were a weak link.

[jmowreader]

21. They don't MAKE sliding doors like that!

The "negligent in the way it let people into its store" comment is spot on, though.

[GodlessBiker]

29. Perhaps they should have installed different doors.

[JonQ]

52. So if the facilities are ever inadequate

wherever you go, you can't be blamed for your actions? I've been in places where I had to (gasp!) wait in line to use the restroom. Clearly they didn't prepare for the number of people they'd have present. I suppose it would have been their fault if I'd decided to urinate on the floor then?

[GodlessBiker]

54. Well, if somebody dies as result of their lack of preparation, then they are at fault.

Why should the guy who died be blamed for his actions in the Wal-Mart case?

Who is the injured party? If someone slips and falls on your urine in the bathroom, did the store adequately take measures to make sure the bathroom was safe and free from pools of urine on the floor?

[JonQ]

56. I didn't blame the guy who was trampled

I don't think anyone has. I blamed the crowd. Mobs are a terrible thing, not in the least because the people in them feel immune to punishment (an accurate assessment usually). Putting up a store and having a great sale does not give those waiting the right to act this way.

[GodlessBiker]

65. But having inadequate security and doors after receiving the very crowds the store was...

hoping to get means they were negligent in preparing for circumstances which were easily foreseeable.

[JonQ]

72. A crowd =! a mob

I've seen crowded stores before, or groups of people waiting eagerly to get in to one. They don't all lead to tragedy; even if the store doesn't have multiple squads of riot police there to start cracking heads at a moments notice. Why?

[GodlessBiker]

79. There's no harm if there's no foul. You need an injured party to put the matter to the test...

Perhaps other Wal-Marts were negligent in their security and in other factors, but since no one was hurt, no one can test them on it.

Here, we have a dead person, and there is ample reason to believe that Wal-mart - after doing what it could to attract the crowd it received and not doing what it could to prevent the crowd from impinging on inadequate doors (was the crowd to know the doors were inadequate?) - was negligent. The jury, however, will decide if the store was negligent. (Actually, it won't get that far. Wal-Mart will probably settle the case.)

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwilightGardener]

18. Well, they should have had more security or police there to handle

the crowd and the initial entry into the store, but the cold-blooded human-stomping assholes in the crowd deserve most of the blame, IMO.

[AlCzervik]

20. 2,000 people cued up, more security was needed no matter what the mood of the crowd.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Once store management saw the size of the crowd, they should have

contacted local police and asked them for assistance when opening the store, even if they didn't have the foresight to employ loads of temporary security personnel beforehand. The store is responsible for the reasonable safety of its shoppers and employees, ultimately, so they will get dinged by some big lawsuits, and that's fine with me. But it's also hard to anticipate that some people will simply act like mindless animals over common crap that you can buy anywhere.

[AlCzervik]

28. i worked for Home depot when y2k was coming and all the end timers a nuts

were coming to the store to buy out all the batteries and generators and water, on new year's eve day we had a big line before the store opened, maybe 500 or so but the store manager had the smarts to hire security guards, there was probably about 20 of them and you have to remember the shoppers that were coming in were a pretty wild crowd. Anyhow it all went smoothly and we sold out of all the generators and pretty much every battery pack we sold.

[TwilightGardener]

32. LOL! Good thinking on their part--I mean, if you think your SURVIVAL may depend on

getting that goddamn generator, then who knows what you'll do to get it?

[Ichingcarpenter]

36. They had a loaded gun and left it out in the open

without a trigger lock on it. Negligence

[BlueGirlRedState]

19. My WalMart experience on Black Friday

I live in Waco. I woke up at 5 for the 5 a.m. sale, got there about 5:30. I wasn't going to sleep on the sidewalks for any kind of sale. And didn't need to.

People were friendly, they let you through if you needed to get through. If you asked where someone found a particular item, they told you. Everyone, including customers and staff, seemed a little sleepy.

But I do have a suggestion for WM: you need to make some aisles one-way. That would have helped a lot. And set up some temporary registers throughout the store to keep the front of the store from being congested. If there had been an emergency, it would have been difficult to vacate the store.

[Fumesucker]

24. You are claiming, that out of the thousands of Walmarts nationwide..

This particular Walmart just happened to have a clientele made up primarily of would be killers?

Do you have any idea how statistically unlikely that is?

[DireStrike]

26. Your thinking is fallacious.

Just because it was an isolated incident does not relieve Wal Mart of liability. Why blame the crowd when it could easily have been the store that was at fault?

However, you are right to point out that this DID happen at only one Wal Mart. Perhaps the company has policies in place to prevent things like this, and maybe this store deviated from them. Its wrong to criticise the entire chain for an incident at one store, unless they had a strong degree of control over the circumstances that caused the incident.

[Cleita]

27. Again another OMC thread that goes off half cocked in

it's reasoning but then I guess you don't mind letting everyone know that you aren't very bright.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. LOL!

[devilgrrl]

30. Oh stop it!

:spank:

[mudesi]

31. NOBODY IS TO BLAME

It wasn't Walmart's fault and it wasn't the crowd's fault.

Accidents happen. Nobody intended to kill anybody.

[Ichingcarpenter]

33. Good thing the gun wasn't loaded by that 8 year old kid

Nobody is to blame, just like george bush would like it.

[mudesi]

38. Are you referring to the 8 year old who killed his father?

Because in that case, if there is anybody to blame, I can safely say it was not the 8 year old child.

Because he is a child.

[Ichingcarpenter]

It was the adults in charge of the store and not

the kids in line.

[Ichingcarpenter]

40. dupe delete n/t

[TwilightGardener]

I wouldn't say that--there's definitely a lesson to be learned here, for both retail stores

and shoppers. Lots of blame spread around to different parties doesn't equal "accident" or "everyone's blameless".

[Romulox]

34. By definition, no one *intends* an accident. That doesn't mean that a negligent person can't be

held liable.

I think you need to separate "blame" (a moral/religious concept) from "responsibility" (a civil law concept.)

[AlCzervik]

35. i'm sure the intent of the crowd was not to kill that guy but when you have 2000

shoppers lined up at the door you need more security for crowd control, it's that difficult to to figure out.

[Neshanic]

48. That's amazing. The WM mouthpiece said those same exact words.

[tkmorris]

88. "Mouthpiece". I like that word

It is surprisingly useful when looking at the OP's body of work.

[GodlessBiker]

55. Since when is intent the only standard? Negligence is at issue here.

[arcadian]

37. Deaths at a Wal-MART store is only good for Wal-Mart

Free advertising. You think anybody will stop shopping there over this? Evidence could be found that Sam Walton was a prison guard at Dachau and people would still shop there.

[Neshanic]

44. A person died because flat screens were on sale.

Let's repeat that.

A PERSON DIED because flat screens were on sale.

This person had a family, and needed money I presume because he was working. Giving your life to a corporation that does not have the forethought or likes the "thrill" of rabid shoppers to hype on TV is not good.

People in line could be dealt with like other sane companies do. You line up, you get a card. The card gets you your lust object. No card, no lust object.

What a pathetic way to look at someone dying, trying to make money to live.

And the others that make fun of it with "the chick at Saks planted her heel in my toe" posts are equally sickening.

[hlthe2b]

45. Recent crowd stampede deaths: ("unruly & disgraceful" crowds)

From a very detailed website that documents and discusses the causes and prevention of crowd stampede events: http://www.crowddynamics.com/Disasters/death_by_human_stampedes.htm

I would encourage OCM and many others to spend some time at that site, educating yourself. I learned a lot as well.

**

Some cases of reports relating to "crowd stampede deaths" over the years at concerts, at soccer stadiums, at religious gatherings and other events.

AT MUSIC VENUES:

Dec. 3, 1979, Cincinnati: 11 killed in a crush to get into a concert by The Who.

Aug. 29, 1980, Maseru, Lesotho: About 20 people killed in a stampede when police in the African country fired tear gas into a crowd trying to force its way into a concert by singer Steve Kekana.

Sept. 30, 1987, Mexico City: Four killed when 25,000 people waiting for a performance by Timbiriche, Flans and Fresas pushed into the concert area.

Dec. 19, 1987, Nashville, Tenn.: Two teens killed in the crush of a crowd departing from a Public Enemy concert.

Jan. 18, 1991, Salt Lake City: Three teenagers killed when the crowd at an AC-DC concert rushed the stage.

Dec. 28, 1991, New York: Eight suffocated in pileup of people trying to get into City College of New York gymnasium for charity basketball game played by rappers.

May 30, 1999, Minsk, Belarus: 53 killed when a crowd fleeing storm at a rock concert and beer festival stampeded in an underground passage.

July 1, 2000, Copenhagen, Denmark: Eight killed in crush of fans trying to get closer to Pearl Jam at an outdoor concert.

Feb. 17, 2003, Chicago: At least 21 killed at a Chicago nightclub when guests rushed to the exits after someone used Mace or pepper spray.

AT SOCCER STADIUMS:

June 23, 1968, Buenos Aires, Argentina: 74 killed when soccer fans try to leave stadium by closed exit and are crushed by others.

March 12, 1988, Katmandu, Nepal: At least 93 killed and more than 100 injured when soccer fans fleeing a hailstorm stampede into locked stadium exits.

April 15, 1989, Sheffield, England: 95 crushed to death, 400 injured when police opened gates to alleviate crowding at soccer match.

June 16, 1996, Lusaka, Zambia: Nine soccer fans crushed to death and 78 others injured during a stampede.

April 11, 2001, Johannesburg, South Africa: 43 people killed and 155 injured as fans try to push into overcrowded stadium.

25th March 2005: Five crushed to death in Iran. At least five people were crushed to death and 40 others injured after a World Cup qualifying match in Tehran, Iran. thousands of spectators rushed to the exits of the Tehran Azadi stadium on Friday night, after Iran beat Japan 2-1 in the Group B qualifying match for the 2006 World Cup finals. More than 100,000 spectators packed the stadium, and all rushed for the exits at the end of the match, causing the stampede, local doctors said. There was no reason for the rush for the doors.

AT RELIGIOUS FESTIVALS:


March 31, 2001, Multan, Pakistan: 30 people killed when crowd of worshippers surged through the gates of a shrine.

Jan 25, 2005, Wai, India. 300 trampled to death during religious festival.

Wed 6 Apr, 2005 Six die in Bangladesh Hindu festival stampede 9:32:46 GMT DHAKA (Reuters) - At lest six people have been killed and several injured in a stampede during a Hindu religious festival in Bangladesh, police say. Six people -- including four women and a child -- died when thousands of Hindu devotees rushed to take holy dip in a pool at Kasiani, about 160 miles southwest of the capital Dhaka, a police officer said on Wednesday. Thousands of Hindus are taking part in a week-long annual bathing ritual, held to celebrate the birth anniversary of medieval saint Hary Chand Thakur. Hindus make up around 10 percent Bangladesh's nearly 140 mostly Muslim people.

Wed 31st August 2005. At least 640 people have died after a railing collapsed on a bridge packed with Shiite worshippers marching in a religious procession, sending crowds tumbling into Iraq's Tigris River. The dead included women and children, a senior police official said. One survivor said panic ensued when people heard that a suicide bomber was in the crowd. Tension was running high in the crowd because of a mortar attack two hours earlier against the shrine where the marchers were heading. Iraqi Deputy Interior Minister Hussein Ali Kamal said the death toll stood at least 640 but the figure could rise. Survivors were rushed in ambulances and private cars to numerous hospitals and officials were scrambling to compile an accurate crowd. Bare-chested men swam through the muddy river looking for bodies. "We were on the bridge. It was so crowded. Thousands of people were surrounding me,'' said survivor Fadhel Ali, 28, as he stood bare footed and soaking wet after swimming from the river. "We heard that a suicide attacker was among the crowd. Everybody was yelling so I jumped from the bridge into the river, swam and reached the bank. I saw women, children and old men falling after me into the water.'' Health Minister Abdul-Mutalib Mohammed told state-run Iraqiya television that there were "huge crowds on the bridge and the disaster happened when someone shouted that there is a suicide bomber on the bridge.'' "This led to a state of panic among the pilgrims and they started to push each other and there was many cases of suffocation,'' he said. Hundreds of thousands of Shiites were marching across the bridge, which links a Sunni and Shiite neighbourhood, heading for the tomb of Imam Mousa al-Kadhim, a 9th century Shiite saint. About two hours earlier, mortar shells exploded in the shrine compound, killing at least seven people. US Apache helicopters fired at the attackers. At least six people died after drinking poisoned juice and food they received around the mosque, Dr Muhannad Jawad of the Yarmouk hospital said. After the bridge disaster, thousands of people rushed to both banks of the river searching for survivors. Hundreds of men stripped down and waded into the muddy water downstream from the bridge trying to extract bodies floating in the water. Television reports said about one million pilgrims from Baghdad and outlying provinces had gathered near the Imam Mousa al-Kadim shrine in the capital's Kazimiyah district for the annual commemoration of the Shiite saint's death. Shiite religious festivals have often been targeted for attack by Sunni extremists seeking to trigger civil war among the rival communities. In March 2004 suicide attackers struck worshippers at the Imam Kadhim shrine and a holy site in Karbala, killing at least 181 overall. The head of the country's major Sunni clerical group, the Association of Muslim Sholars, told Al-Jazeera television that the disaster was "another catastrophe and something else that could be added to the list of ongoing Iraqi tragedies.'' "On this occasion we want to express our condolences to all the Iraqis and the parents of the martyrs, who fell today in Kazimiyah and all over Iraq,'' the cleric, Haith al-Dhari, said.

OTHER STAMPEDE TRAGEDIES:

Dec. 4, 1999, Vienna, Austria: Five people trampled to death in a stampede of spectators at a snowboarding event.

Dec. 1, 2001, Gaibandha, Bangladesh: At least 31 killed in a stampede of people scrambling for charity clothes.

July 21, 2001, Akashi, Japan: 11 trampled to death when youths pushing through a crowd at a fireworks festival triggered a stampede.

9th Sept 2005 Woman Dies in Plane Stampede Maha Akeel & Mohammed Rasooldeen COLOMBO/JEDDAH, 9 September 2005 — A woman passenger was killed and dozens were injured yesterday following a stampede on board a Jeddah-bound Saudi Arabian Airlines jumbo jet after a bomb scare. The bomb alert proved a hoax. Saudi Arabian Airlines said in a statement that the pilot of Boeing 747-300 Flight SV781 from Colombo to Jeddah via Riyadh received a call from the control tower at 10 a.m. while taxiing for takeoff that there was a bomb on the plane. He immediately decided to evacuate the plane that carried 424 passengers and 19 crewmembers. The tower and airport authorities directed the pilot to take the plane to a secluded area of the airport and evacuate the plane. The captain then ordered the opening of the emergency exits and rolling out of the slides. The Sri Lankan woman who died was wearing an abaya. She hit her head on the tarmac after sliding down the escape chute, said D. Atthanayake, airport duty manager, citing preliminary inquiries. “It was a chaotic situation,” he added. “Only tomorrow morning we will be doing the post-mortem,” said Dr. SC Wickramasinghe, who runs Negombo Hospital north of the capital where four other injured were being treated. At least 19 people were admitted to nearby hospitals while 75 others suffered bruises and other minor injuries, according to air force spokesman Ajantha de Silva. Police said bomb squad officers were checking the plane, but had found nothing and believed the bomb alert was a hoax. Security authorities at the airport said they were trying to trace the caller. The stranded passengers were put up in hotels near the Colombo airport. They will be brought to the Kingdom in an alternative plane. A Saudia source told Arab News that the alternative plane departed from Jeddah at 4 p.m. (Saudi time). An airline official at the Colombo International Airport told Arab News that the alternative flight would leave Colombo at 4 a.m. (Sri Lanka time) today, and would arrive in Riyadh at 6 a.m. and at Jeddah at 8.15 a.m. The incident came a day after peace broker Norway announced it had suggested the airport, named after President Chandrika Kumaratunga’s late father and former Prime Minister Solomon Bandaranaike, as a neutral venue for talks with Tamil Tiger rebels. The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam rejected the site in a statement issued to the media after the bomb hoax. — Additional input from agencies. Colombo Launches Probe Into Saudia Bomb Hoax Stampede. RIYADH, 10 September 2005 — Passengers of the Saudi Arabian Airlines Flight SV 781, on which a bomb hoax sparked a stampede at the Colombo International Airport on Thursday, arrived here in a special Saudia aircraft yesterday morning at 8.20 in Riyadh. Meanwhile, Colombo launched a full-scale investigation on the bomb hoax which triggered an emergency evacuation from the Riyadh/Jeddah bound flight Thursday afternoon. The grounded aircraft also left Colombo at 8 p.m. yesterday without passengers on board after airport authorities issued a clearance certificate for its takeoff. “We are trying to trace the call which initially came to the airport telephone operator and then connected to the control tower,” airport chief Tiran Alles said. “An investigation is under way.” Nineteen passengers who were seriously injured in the scramble to exit the Boeing 747 jetliner through emergency chutes were still in hospital yesterday, a day after the incident. A total of 62 out of the 430 passengers and 22 crew members were injured and most of them had minor bruises. Alles said they were probing the incident thoroughly. “We have had similar hoaxes in the past,” Alles said. “This is serious because a life has been lost and many more people were injured.” The airline authorities have identified the dead woman as Fatima Aboosalih, 28, from Bibile, 225 km from Colombo. She was coming for employment as a maid to a household in Jeddah. Among the arriving passengers, a Sri Lankan housewife who was coming with four children including a 1 1/2-year-old infant had lost her valuables worth SR200,000 which she claims she had put in her handbag. “When the passengers were asked to evacuate, I carried baby Fakhira immediately and asked my children to get out of the plane as quickly as possible leaving the handbag,” Farhana Faroon told Arab News. She added: “It had all my jewelry including a diamond set and Rs. 150,000 cash which I collected from the tenant of my house rented in Colombo.” Although she had minor bruises to her elbow, she opted to stay in the hotel without going to the hospital for medical treatment because she did not want to leave her children alone in the hotel. “The airline officials gave all the handbags except mine to the respective passengers when we came to the airport on the following day for the Riyadh flight,” Farhana said. Accompanying Farhana were her children Fakhira, Fariha, Fadiya and Famidha. Her husband works as an accountant at a premier food establishment in Riyadh. At the Riyadh airport, Farhana got only three of her five checked in bags and she was asked by the airport authorities to collect the rest of the luggage today presuming that the bags had been tagged to Jeddah, the final destination of the flight. A banker who wished to remain anonymous said that the airline officials were cooperative in the emergency situation. “We were asked to remove our shoes and leave all belongings before we ventured to slide through the chutes,” he said, adding that he got even his shoes back when he came to the airport again to board the rescheduled flight. “I got all my accompanied bags, thanks to Saudia,” he said. Mohammed Najeeb and Mohammed Izmi who work for King Faisal School in Riyadh said they did not get their bags and were asked to come the following day to collect them. A senior official from the Saudi Arabian Airlines in Colombo told Arab News that all the passengers had identified their bags at the Colombo airport before loading. “There is no chance of bags getting lost, perhaps some could have been dispatched to Jeddah in an emergency situation of this nature. In such a case, they will be diverted to Riyadh again,” he added. He confirmed that Farhana had lodged a formal complaint in Colombo and had been assured that the airline would do its best to look into the matter. Saudi ambassador in Colombo, Mohamed Mahmud Al-Ali was also on the flight but he escaped injury. He was on his way to attend the funeral of his father and got a SriLankan flight later though he was able to take only his hand luggage. “It was a long journey. I took a flight to Abu Dhabi and then to Madinah and finally I reached Tabuk in time for the funeral,” Al-Ali told Arab News. Saudia Bomb Hoax Call Originated From Airport Mohammed Rasooldeen, Arab News RIYADH, 13 September 2005 — Preliminary investigations indicate that the hoax phone call last Thursday saying that a bomb was on board Saudi Arabian Airlines Flight SV781 originated from within Colombo’s Bandaranaike International Airport (BIA). There was no bomb but during the emergency evacuation of the aircraft, one Sri Lankan woman died and 74 other passengers were injured. A special two-man team from the Kingdom is currently in Colombo to assist with the investigation. According to information obtained by Arab News from Colombo, the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder have been handed over to Kingdom officials. “We do not have facilities in Sri Lanka to read the recordings in these machines,” H.M.C. Nimalasiri, Sri Lanka’s director general of aviation, told Arab News. The Saudia team of Abdullah Al-Salem and Ghazi Al-Taifi held talks Saturday with the director general. The director general said, “Saudia crew deserve a special word of praise since they responded promptly to the signal from the airport control tower for emergency evacuation.” He pointed out that the injuries were mainly due to panic among the passengers who were trying frantically to slide down the chutes. He said the SriLankan airlines emergency team at the airport also did a commendable job in assisting the passengers to evacuate the aircraft. The dead woman, Fathima Nazeema, mother of six, first came to work in Saudi Arabia about eight years ago. A Saudia official said that the airline had paid her funeral expenses and appropriate compensation would be paid to the next-of-kin according to IATA regulations.

[hlthe2b]

46. Causes of Human Stampedes

Death by Human Stampedes

(updated 11th September 2005)
http://www.crowddynamics.com/Disasters/death_by_human_stampedes.htm

Stampedes

"Crowd forces can reach levels that almost impossible to resist or control. Virtually all crowd deaths are due to compressive asphyxia and not the "trampling" reported by the news media. Evidence of bent steel railings after several fatal crowd incidents show that forces of more than 4500 N (1,000 lbs.) occurred. Forces are due to pushing, and the domino effect of people leaning against each other.

"Compressive asphyxia has occurred from people being stacked up vertically, one on top of the other, or horizontal pushing and leaning forces. In the Ibrox Park soccer stadium incident, police reported that the pile of bodies was 3 m (10 feet) high. At this height, people on the bottom would experience chest pressures of 3600-4000 N (800-900 lbs.), assuming half the weight of those above was concentrated in the upper body area.

"Horizontal forces sufficient to cause compressive asphyxia would be more dynamic as people push off against each other to obtain breathing space. In the Cincinnati rock concert incident, a line of bodies was found approximately 9 m (30 ft) from a wall near the entrance. This indicates that crowd pressures probably came from both directions as rear ranks pressed forward and front ranks pushed off the wall.

"Experiments to determine concentrated forces on guardrails due to leaning and pushing have shown that force of 30% to 75% of participant weight can occur. In a US National Bureau of Standards study of guardrails, three persons exerted a leaning force of 792 N (178 lbs.) and 609 N (137 lbs.) pushing. <9> In a similar Australian Building Technology Centre study, three persons in a combined leaning an pushing posture developed a force of 1370 N (306 lbs.). <10> This study showed that under a simulated "panic", 5 persons were capable of developing a force of 3430 N (766 lbs.)." From Furin "Causes and Prevention of Disasters"

[hlthe2b]

47. The elements causing Crowd Disasters

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Fruin%20-%20causes.htm

THE FIST MODEL OF CROWD DISASTERS

The primary elements involved in crowd disasters have been determined from personal experiences, analysis of major crowd incidents, and basic traffic flow principles. The elements provide a model for understanding the causes of crowd disasters, means of prevention, and possible mitigation of an ongoing crowd incident. The elements of the model form the acronym "FIST", which is a useful reminder that any crowd situation can quickly become threatening and potentially lethal. The acronym is defined as follows: FORCE (F) of the crowd, or crowd pressure; INFORMATION (I) upon which the crowd acts or reacts, real or perceived, true or false; SPACE (S) involved in the crowd incident, standing area, physical facilities - stairs, corridors, escalators; TIME (T) duration of incident, event scheduling, facility processing rates.

Force

Crowd forces can reach levels that almost impossible to resist or control. Virtually all crowd deaths are due to compressive asphyxia and not the "trampling" reported by the news media. Evidence of bent steel railings after several fatal crowd incidents show that forces of more than 4500 N (1,000 lbs.) occurred. Forces are due to pushing, and the domino effect of people leaning against each other.

Compressive asphyxia has occurred from people being stacked up vertically, one on top of the other, or horizontal pushing and leaning forces. In the Ibrox Park soccer stadium incident, police reported that the pile of bodies was 3 m (10 feet) high. At this height, people on the bottom would experience chest pressures of 3600-4000 N (800-900 lbs.), assuming half the weight of those above was concentrated in the upper body area.

Horizontal forces sufficient to cause compressive asphyxia would be more dynamic as people push off against each other to obtain breathing space. In the Cincinnati rock concert incident, a line of bodies was found approximately 9 m (30 ft) from a wall near the entrance. This indicates that crowd pressures probably came from both directions as rear ranks pressed forward and front ranks pushed off the wall.

Experiments to determine concentrated forces on guardrails due to leaning and pushing have shown that force of 30% to 75% of participant weight can occur. In a US National Bureau of Standards study of guardrails, three persons exerted a leaning force of 792 N (178 lbs.) and 609 N (137 lbs.) pushing. <9> In a similar Australian Building Technology Centre study, three persons in a combined leaning an pushing posture developed a force of 1370 N (306 lbs.). <10> This study showed that under a simulated "panic", 5 persons were capable of developing a force of 3430 N (766 lbs.).

Information

In the broad systems sense, information has many forms. It includes all means of communication, the sights and sounds affecting group perceptions, public address announcements, training and actions of personnel, signs, and even ticketing.

Space

The configuration, capacity, and traffic processing capabilities of assembly facilities determine degrees of crowding. Space includes standing and seating areas, projected occupancies, and the practical working capacities of corridors, ramps, stairs, doors, escalators, and elevators.

Time

A simple illustration of timing is the more gradual and lighter density arrival process before an event, compared to the rapid egress and heavy crowd densities after an event.

[hlthe2b]

50. PREVENTION OF CROWD DISASTERS

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Fruin%20-%20causes.htm

PREVENTION OF CROWD DISASTERS BY CROWD MANAGEMENT

Most major crowd disasters can be prevented by simple crowd management strategies. The primary crowd management objectives are the avoidance of critical crowd densities and the triggering of rapid group movement.

Terminology

Although the terms crowd management and crowd control are often used interchangeably, there are important differences. Crowd management is defined as the systematic planning for, and supervision of, the orderly movement and assembly of people. Crowd control is the restriction or limitation of group behaviour. Crowd management involves the assessment of the people handling capabilities of a space prior to use. It includes evaluation of projected levels of occupancy, adequacy of means of ingress and egress, processing procedures such as ticket collection, and expected types of activities and group behaviour.

Crowd control may be part of a crowd management plan, or occur as an unplanned reaction to a group problem. It can include extreme measures to enforce order, such as the use of force, arrest, or threat of personal injury. It may employ barriers that alter the space available for occupancy and patterns of group movement. Inappropriate or poorly managed control procedures have precipitated crowd incidents rather than preventing them. For example, police reacting to a group of unruly persons at a rock concert, herded spectators into areas where there were no means of egress.

INFORMATION

Crowd mangers must determine a wide range of information about a venue and the people occupying it before a group assembly occurs. Included is an assessment of the nature of the group, experience with similar groups, potential behaviour patterns, projected occupancy, facility processing rates, staffing, and means of communication between staff and with the crowd.

Nature of Crowd

Crowds can attract participants who come to observe and to peacefully enjoy the event, predators in search of victims, and people with other psychological or social agenda. <11> Constant monitoring of crowd behaviour is necessary for good crowd management. A proactive type of management is required, anticipating and resolving problems before they occur, rather than reacting when it could be too late.

Crowd Management Centre

Real time information about the status of crowd conditions in large assembly spaces is critical. A centralized crowd management and communications centre should be set up for this purpose. The ideal centre would provide a maximum view of the venue, supplemented by video camera access to blind spaces, pressure points, and major movement pathways. Full communications coordination should be provided between all venue staff, local police, fire, and emergency medical services, and any on-site radio or television media. Radio frequencies, telephone numbers, and similar communications information and related procedures should be in a printed form distributed to all staff.

Staff Training

The training of crowd management personnel is of vital concern. Often casual labour is employed at large events. These employees may only receive vague instructions, usually about controlling certain crowd behaviours. Even permanent staff may have limited training in crowd management, recognition of potentially dangerous crowd problems, and the handling of accidents and other emergencies. Training should include instructions on the basics of normal and emergency crowd movement and assembly; initial handling of accident victims, altercations and other crowd incidents; communications procedures and use of communications equipment; avoidance of actions that would incite or trigger dangerous crowd behaviours; and conduct and demeanour during an emergency. All personnel should be provided with a quick reference pocket guide to reinforce training guidelines and communications procedures.

Emergency Response

Response to crowd incidents must be rapid, authoritative, and provide clear and unambiguous information about the emergency and required group actions. Dispersion by multiple routes away from the cause of a crowd incident is preferred over concentrated paths of movement. The summoning of emergency services must be initiated immediately, and not left until the scope of the incident is determined. Victims of compression asphyxia can be revived only if resuscitation begins quickly.

Responsibilities of Performers

Actions by performers such as late cancellation, walking off stage, encouraging fans to move closer, throwing souvenirs to the audience, or other actions have precipitated inappropriate or hazardous group reactions. Entertainers should be fully informed of their own responsibilities for maintaining order, and the problems associated with inciting potentially dangerous group behaviours. Performers must provide advance notice of cancellation, before patrons begin entering the venue. Communication with the crowd should not be delayed if cancellation occurs after entry. Announcements should clearly establish refund policies, exit routes, and need for orderly movement.

Ticketing

Tickets are an important crowd management information factor. Reserved section and seat tickets determine specific area occupancy, and routes of entry and egress. Tickets also provide a means of instructing patrons on rules of conduct expected within the venue. Major art exhibitions have managed crowding by arrival time ticketing, valid only during a specific time period.

The Duty to Warn

A legal view of crowd management responsibilities requires that crowd participants be informed of foreseeable dangers associated with crowd behaviours and/or assembly facilities.

Litigation proceedings have shown that concert managers are aware that festival seating events cause some to faint from heat exhaustion, and furthermore, that these persons are virtually inaccessible within the crowd. This knowledge requires that crowd participants be warned of crowding hazards, and be instructed in aid procedures.

SPACE

Architects and engineers typically give minimal attention to the movement of people in initial building design, beyond compliance with local building codes. Code compliance does not guarantee that a building will function well during normal assembly use or emergency egress. Designing for crowd management requires that projected maximum occupancy levels of a space be correlated with the movement capabilities of all corridors, stairs, ramps, escalators, and other facilities. Designers have the responsibility of preparing the initial crowd management plan as part of the life safety evaluation of a new venue. <12> The plan should establish the assembly and people movement capabilities of all aspects of the venue, movement patterns, identify possible problem areas, and generally describe how the design will accommodate normal and emergency crowd movement. Traffic capacities of corridors, stairs, passenger conveyors, and waiting spaces, have been established by a number of sources. <13>

Movement Pathways

Access tree diagrams, or schematic line illustrations of pathway configuration, pedestrian volume and direction, are useful planning tools. The tree diagrams show the capacities of doors, corridors, stairs, escalators, landings, and identify pressure and conflict points. Pathway alignments should be simple and direct, and not circuitous or offset from the normal straight line of sight. Arrangements that result in unbalanced use of egress or ingress routes, dead ends, or similar confusing and irregular pathway choices, are not acceptable.

Dispersed and equally balanced ingress and egress points are preferred over a single centralized location. The influence of external facilities on the volume and direction of movement must be considered. Concentration of parking or transit on one side of a venue will focus internal movement towards that side, resulting in unbalanced traffic demands. Architectural statements, aided by directional graphics, should be used to visually define and clarify what processing functions are taking place. Ticketing should be separated from admissions, and the flow between them sequential, uni-directional, and without crossing conflicts.

Pressure Points

Pressure points are locations where a change in pathway processing capacity, normal directions of movement, or a confluence of traffic streams, results in conflicts or accident exposure. Examples include directional changes where there are inadequately guarded openings to lower levels, at stair approaches, and landings at the discharge or outlet ends of escalators. Crowd pressures at such locations have resulted in people being pushed over guardrails, down stairs, or in structural failure of guardrails.

Back-up Standby Power

Alternative power sources for lighting and communications are required. The New Delhi tower museum crowd incident is an example of the confusion resulting from a combined lighting and communications failure. A public address system tied to only one source could be lost when most needed.

Emergency Medical Facilities

Emergency room space and equipment sufficient to handle routine accidents and larger crowd incidents is required. Lives have been unnecessarily lost in large crowd incidents by the lack of simple equipment such as stretchers and oxygen. Many venues accommodate the population equivalent of a medium sized city, requiring that the medical centre be equipped to provide skilled response to cardiac, spinal injury cases and other emergencies. Means of communication with local emergency medical services, their response times and ability to handle a mass crowd disaster should be established as part of the crowd management plan.

TIME

The rationale for time based crowd management strategies is the control of pedestrian demand rates so that traffic flow does not exceed the capacity of any element of the venue. The objective of temporal strategies is to keep pedestrian densities below critical levels. Restaurant reservations and the arrival time ticketing method used for museum exhibits are familiar examples of time based crowd management.

Metering

It may be necessary to meter, or throttle the arrival rate demand at facilities with limited processing capacity. Examples could include stairs, narrow corridors, escalators, ticket gates, pressure points, or other locations where excessive arrivals will cause hazardous overcrowding. Metering must be carefully applied because it will cause waiting lines and crowding on the approaches to the metered facility. The approach area should be large enough to accommodate expected demands and to establish formal queue lines. Communication is a critical aspect of metering control. Personnel involved in the metering operation should be in constant communication with each other and alert to any interruptions in flow.

Early Opening and Delayed Closing

Early opening of a venue to extend the ingress arrival process, and post event entertainment or other strategies to lengthen the egress process, reduces crowding within the venue and traffic pressures on external transit, road, and parking facilities.

CONCLUSIONS

The crowd incident model and its derivative guidelines show that many crowd disasters could have been avoided by simple advance planning and management techniques. Reliable real-time communication between those responsible for crowd management, and authoritative communication with the crowd, are also critical elements in defusing a potentially lethal crowd incident. These strategies are also the least costly means of preventing crowd disasters.

[hlthe2b]

53. Conclusion: It's not rocket science. This WAS preventable

and WalMart most certainly is liable. (see the posts upstream)

[ColbertWatcher]

63. Thank you. n/t

[MiniMe]

66. Pssssttttt, the other stores were lucky. It's not like this is the first time

this has happened.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. Not Luck Entirely

In this case, the crowd was getting edgy. The idiot manager of that store had a fully staffed store 40 minutes before opening and INSISTED that the doors not be opened until 6am.

Perhaps most of the other stores would have had a manager that would have not been hiding in his office and surveyed the situation on a shopping day like that.

I think the whole thing could have been prevented by opening the doors 10 minutes early. People start looking at their watches when it gets close. All it takes is two people who have watches that are 3 minutes fast to inflame the situation.

The Professor

[Orsino]

68. And just maybe, Wal-mart's general lack of giving a shit caught up with them...

..in this "isolated" case. A uniquely unruly crowd would still have to have been allowed to approach the door, and would have to have been allowed inside.

That this crowd's gestalt may have been particularly savage in no way releases the corporation from whatever due diligence turns out to have been. We already know that Wal-Mart cheaps out whenever possible. If they are generally negligent in crowd control, violence still might only occur in one location. This incident may only be the tip of a very nasty iceberg; it's far too early to excuse anyone (including the crowd itself).

Investigation is important, if only to ensure that generally sane safety precautions are taken.

[Ichingcarpenter]

75. Watch Wal-Mart shoppers fight for the last X-Box at another store

BTW. I stood in line a K-Mart at 5 in the morning for the first PSII. They handed out
numbers to the crowd even back then. They had security and line order.


Wal-Mart created this scene that couldn't have ended even worse than it did.

Video Here:
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=230423

[Orsino]

78. I'm very interested in what a court would decide is due diligence.

I suspect that Wal-Mart will settle this, though, to avoid a precedent that would force them to spend even more money.

[iamthebandfanman]

70. you're right on one point

and that is that this sorta thing just happens sometimes... coulda happened anywhere really...

but that doesnt mean they shouldnt be held responsible if something they didnt do or could have done could have prevented it.

lets not pretend walmart is a good corporatation tho..

[ProfessorGAC]

71. Psssst! Needlessly Provocative

And absent of value.
The Professor

[TrogL]

74. Walmart stores are an accident waiting to happen - the definition of "negligence"

The stores are specifically laid out to hamper movement as much as possible and cause you to have to go past over-priced crap blocking the aisles to get to the goodies at the back.

There's also waay too few fire exists and most are blocked with crap or their signs are invisible because they're blocked by sale posters.

[lumpy]

82. Sheep folllow money not common sense. Donkeys are tempted

by carrots. Lemmings race over cliffs.

[eShirl]

87. booo hisssssss

[TexasObserver]

90. Your point of view is simply illogical, and further, without any basis in law.

The number of times Walmart opens without killing an employee is absolutely immaterial to any issue in determining their liability for THIS incident. If that were the standard, no one would ever be held negligent for anything. Even the driver who runs a red light and kills someone drives safe MOST of the time.

Your point of view is simply illogical, and further, without any basis in law.

Got that? Pass it on.

[THUNDER HANDS]

91. that's like saying after a plane crashes "hey, look at all the one's that didn't."

logically, it's true, but if the airline was at fault, it deserves to be investigated and those responsible punished.

I wouldn't be so hard up for this if I didn't see with my own eyes the potential for this to happen.

[mountainvue]

92. This is not an isolated incident. Wal Mart sucks.

Haven't I seen you defending them on here before?

[Javaman]

93. psst, ever hear of the WHO concert back in the 70's where 11 people were crushed to death...

shhhh pass it on.

tool.

[KG]

96. a man is dead, but it's no big deal coz he was the only one. a truly disgusting sentiment.

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

101. Takes A Special Kind Of Stupid To Think That's What The OP Was Saying.

Congrats!

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

110. .

[DaDeacon]

97. Hear, Hear ! Well said n/t

[depakid]

103. The clueless never learn about corporate acccountability

it's always other people's fault- which is why foreseeable (and prevenatable) incidents like this repeat themselves.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

105. Lo The Naked Ape in The Human Zoo. No surprise there! n/t

[rug]

107. And the passengers on the Titanic were just selfish pigs.

[blondeatlast]

109. And after White Line assured them that the Titanic could not possibly sink

so why would they need enough lifeboats?

Wow, that really does sound like what happened at WalMart...

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. A driver tried to kill WalMart shoppers here

Driver hits early morning shoppers in Lee’s Summit (on their way to WalMart)
By RUSS PULLEY
The Kansas City Star

A motorist struck two pedestrians this morning as they were pushing a shopping cart and crossing a street in Lee’s Summit, police said.

The pedestrians, a male and a female in their 30s, suffered scrapes and were taken to a hospital with non-life threatening injuries, said Lee’s Summit Police Department spokesman Mike Childs.

The accident was reported at 5:50 a.m. in the 800 block of Tudor Road, adjacent to a Wal-Mart store. The pedestrians were crossing outside a crosswalk and while in the westbound lane were hit by a 20-year-old Lee’s Summit resident going to work.

No charges have been filed against the driver or pedestrians, but the investigation is on-going, Childs said.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/912966.html

[Forkboy]

114. Thicker than a whale omelet.

[snooper2]

116. This stupid fucking thread is still going on?

psssssst


OPERATIONCRIMEMIND- Hillary needs some Mc.Lovin in GDP :rofl:

[Fumesucker]

117. The stupider the thread, the longer they last..

Hasn't risen to the prominence of Godwin's law yet, but it is a definite internet phenomenon. :)

[blondeatlast]

119. Touche'! LOL! nt

[mdmc]

118. i think someone lost their life

I could be wrong...but I thought there was a death in LI NY.

[Kazak]

120. Psssttt...don't be such a condescending jerk!

And, people just might take you seriously next time. :shrug:

[Rebubula]

121. Though I dislike WalMart

I do not disagree with any thing that you said.

[Bluebear]

124. Plenty of other factories made shirtwaists too.