Far beyond abortion

[mudesi]

Broader medical refusal rule may go far beyond abortion

The outgoing Bush administration is planning to announce a broad new "right of conscience" rule permitting medical facilities, doctors, nurses, pharmacists and other healthcare workers to refuse to participate in any procedure they find morally objectionable, including abortion and possibly even artificial insemination and birth control.

I swear this man is going to make sure he literally sets fire to the White House before he leaves.

[Warpy]

1. What a friend we have in Jebus

Now he saves us the trouble of doing our JOBS.

People with morbid religious scruples need to find another line of work.

[DoctorMyEyes]

3. Really

I what other profession can you get away with shit like this? If you can't or won't do the damn job do something else.

[marshall]

76. I think people must be given their sabbath off, as a related example

I recall a human resources training I had to take--if someone for instance converts to Judiaism the employer is supposed to give them their Sabbath Saturday off. I can't remember if they have to try and accommodate them or if they must accommodate them.

I wouldn't object to wording that said something like "the hospital should attempt to schedule nurses or doctors so that they aren't doing a proceudre they find morally wrong" but that would allow for exceptions when such a scheduling accommodation cannot be made.

[Taverner]

2. Jeez - he's going psycho fundie right now isn't he?

Does he want to be a speaker on the fundie circuit?

[LisaM]

4. What is wrong with him?

Why is he such a total ass?

[Sugar Smack]

66. He's freewheeling, spiteful & inebriated malevolence at this point.

:nuke:

[lizerdbits]

5. As a woman who takes BCPs

to avoid being so bloated I have to wear a size larger pants and not have 3 month periods I say go fuck yourself asshole. And aside from that, my uterus is none of his fucking business. Maybe someone should start "Fundy Pharmacy" for these nuts who refuse to find another profession that works with their beliefs.

[PeaceNikki]

10. For the record, your reasons for taking BCP's are no more or less worthy of protection than anyone

else's.

[Pastiche423]

73. That was not called for

But you can't stop your snarky self, can you?

[PeaceNikki]

74. What are you talking about?

[Pastiche423]

87. Your post #10

[PeaceNikki]

92. Clearly you misinterpreted it.

But if you feel justified in snarking at me about it, whatever.

[Pastiche423]

149. Could you explain it please?

[PeaceNikki]

164. When a doctor prescribes the BCP, we all have a right to get it filled by a pharmacist

without judgment, questions, or explanation.

I think your snark-o-meter is on the fritz if it pinged for you. ;)

[Pastiche423]

165. My snark-o-meter is working just fine, thank you very much

You "judged" the poster you replied to who was only giving her reasons and thoughts about birth control pills.

Buh bye.

[PeaceNikki]

170. Out of all of the bullshit and "snark" in this thiread, you choose me to

to shake your finger at? Thank you for your important contribution to the discussion. :rofl:

You don't know me. Buh bye, indeed. :hi:

[Lyric]

181. No, your snark-o-meter sucks.

There are some people who claim that BCPs "can cause abortion," and that women who take them for anything less than some dire, horrific medical condition are "irresponsible" and "selfish." This attitude can sometimes even be found right here on DU; unfortunately, the admins permit anti-choice DU'ers to post here.

PeaceNikki was defending her preemptively from people who might claim that her reasons for taking them weren't "good enough," and making a statement that every reason is equally "good enough," whether it involves Stage 4 Endometriosis, mild cramps, pregnancy avoidance, or anything in between. If you read it as something else, that was your mistake--not hers. The only snarkiness I see is yours.

[PeaceNikki]

185. Thank you.

In addition, the post to which I responded came off (to me) as .... "well, judgments aside, I have VALID reasons for taking them!!"

I felt it necessary to point out that ALL reasons are valid and I even said that hers are no more OR LESS valid than any other and MOST importantly, it's none of ANYBODY's business WHY any of us take BCP.

Again, with all of the snark, in-fighting and bullshit in this thread, it's so very odd to me that 2 people waltzed into it and their only input was to criticize me. I don't get it.

[Quantess]

186. That's a great post. I don't know why PeaceNikki didn't just write that.

Oh, well. It's so easy to misundertand people on a message board. I've been misinterpreted many times before. :hi:

[PeaceNikki]

187. If it's so easy to misunderstand, you shouldn't be so quick to judge.

But whatever.

[Pastiche423]

189. This is defending someone?

"For the record, your reasons for taking BCP's are no more or less worthy of protection than anyone else's."

That's it. That her entire post. Please show me where she is defending anything.

[Quantess]

177. It looks snarky to my estimation, as well.

[PeaceNikki]

180. Awesome. It's now official. The snark police have made their ruling.

Now piss off.


(see... THAT's snark)

[Lyric]

182. Your estimation was wrong.

[lizerdbits]

171. I agree

Which is why I said 'aside from that my uterus is none of his fucking business' nor is any other uterus.

[Lyric]

183. Right on, sistah.

:toast:

[Wapsie B]

6. But what if someone were to claim moral objection to giving an 85-year old open-heart surgery?

What if a caregiver objects to the thought of performing major surgery on someone who's days are numbered? What if someone objects to allowing a patient to live, but only in a vegetative state?
This may give the fundies more rule over the womb and vagina but me thinks the law of unintended consequences will come into play after awhile.

[gollygee]

7. Or refused to give a kidney transplant to someone over a certain age

Or refused to perform surgery on someone who smokes, or drinks, or is overweight?

[mitchtv]

72. suppose they are, god forbid, Gay?

Or, they have HIV that requires treatment ? Point being, if you are licensed by the state, do your job.

[gollygee]

173. Yes - it's the license that makes the difference

The license exists to make sure that they meet certain standards to protect the public's health. This is a classic example of where the public's health needs to be protected.

[Bobbieo]

8. Bush literally hates Americans - look at all the nasty names we have

been calling him over the past 8 years and he is going to get even any way he can!!! He is a vindictive bastard.

[csziggy]

What if one of these fanatical fundies decides that Muslims should not be allowed to have medicine?

Or Pagans, or Buddhists - I can see that as one small additional step for these wackos. This concept is unconstitutional - at least would be if we had a sane majority on the Supreme Court.

[loyalsister]

172. Or pain killers to

someone who looks like they have been living rough. Despite major painful injuries after being hit by a car.

[Lyric]

184. Try getting a painkiller prescription when you're a Medicaid patient

for anything less than mangled limbs. *sigh*

I've had doctors balk at giving me narcotic pain meds for KIDNEY STONES because of the biased and erronous assumption that poor people are more likely to go sell their pills than to take them.

[MineralMan]

9. What if a doctor decides

that opiate drugs are too addicting to be prescribed and refuses to prescribe adequate pain relief for cancer patients? It would be against his "principles" that say that humans are destined to have pain, according to his phony deity.

Slippery slope, indeed.

[RedCappedBandit]

15. What if there is some fundy nutjob

who decides medical care is against god's will and lets all of his patients die?


okay, extreme, but you get the point. this is just absurd.

[MineralMan]

16. Not so far-fetched...

Every year, a number of children die because parents, guided by their "ministers" refuse medical care for a child suffering from a curable illness.

I doubt that many "Let God Heal It" fundies would go into the medical profession, but others lead people down the path of refusing medical attention.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

135. you mean like Mother Theresa??????

Who did not give her patients any ACTUAL MEDICAL CARE. She just kept millions of dollars in the bank and wouldn't even let her nuns do anything to help people other than pray.

Christopher Hitchens did an expose of Mother Theresa years ago.

[RedCappedBandit]

155. Mother Theresa was a nun, not a doctor

[FloridaJudy]

18. Or one who decides

That pain in childbirth is punishment for Eve's sin, and refuses to administer analgesia/anesthesia?

Not so far off the wall: women are dying in third world countries because the US refuses aid to NGOs providing maternal-infant care that they fear might in some cases mention abortion. Not provide it, mind you, just mention it!

Women. Are. Dying.

How dare these self-righteous bigots call themselves "Pro-Life"!

[Canuckistanian]

11. No kidding. This is a "scorched earth" policy.

Now Obama is going to have to re-instate the status quo. And the RWnut press is going to portray this as "the socialization" of America, with "atheistic overtones".

Obama should comment on this, BEFORE the inauguration.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. All the more reason for Obama & the Democratic Congress to make Plan B and Oral Contraceptives OTC.

Jesus-drunk pharmacists refuse to fill womens' prescriptions? Fine. Make it available without one.

Fuck. Enough, already.

[stuntcat]

39. omg, fingers crossed

I have to order BC pills from England because my insurance company is owned by Mormons. It's not easy, I'm already kinda Mental, borderline psycho, but I have to risk breaking laws and then take chances with my f-ed up memory just to avoid the chance of getting pregnant.. when I've made it clear to my doctor and everyone in my family that I would kill myself if it happened.

Why the fuck can't we just get the pill ourselves? Why the fuck are they making it so hard for me to just get the f'ing operation?

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. I reckon if they find their jobs morally objectionable

they need to find new jobs.

Fuck them and the cross they rode in on.

[BrklynLiberal]

25. ditto!!!

[RedCappedBandit]

14. Won't happen.

Oh wait, that's in my ideal world I'd LIKE to live in. Here in the US, I sadly wouldn't be surprised.

:puke:

[rug]

17. Should people be compelled to particpate if they conscientiously object?

Here's the proposed rule and 42 pages of history.

http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2008pres/08/20080821reg.pdf

[RedCappedBandit]

19. Yes

I didn't read the link, but if I'm understanding your question correctly, my answer is yes. Doctors, hospitals, and anywhere else that offers health services have obligations to treat their patients in either the best, most effective way, or in whatever way the patient deems necessary unless that patient is unable to decide for him or herself.

[rug]

27. Should they be compelled to perform gender assignment surgery on children?

[BrklynLiberal]

29. How far off the subject can you possibly go.....

That is an absurd comparison. If you cannot see that then you simply do not understand the entire problem.

[rug]

41. A doctor or a pharmacist has no legal right to deny a patient treatment... under any circumstances!

Who said that?

[Deja Q]

54. a fair response; indeed, do children make rational decisions?

They usually learn from their parents and ambient environment.

And until puberty, how do they even begin to know that they'd rather have a willy instead of a wonka, or vice-versa?

Let's ASK questions, regardless of how tangential. He was talking about something pertinent to the medical industry. Doesn't seem to be off the subject very much at all.

[RedCappedBandit]

No, because such a procedure

does not fall into the "treat their patients in either the best, most effective way" category. It is actually quite the opposite.

You might as well ask if they should feel compelled to perform assisted suicide on children because that's what the parent wants.

Edit: I'm going to have to change my response. Such treatment paths may be appropriate, depending on the child's age and various other factors. Also, I believe the child should meet with a counselor before undergoing any treatment to determine whether the parents are actually pushing for what is in the child's best interests. However, surgery at that age is extreme. I know they are given hormone therapy at the proper stages of development, and (assuming their parents are open, caring and understanding) allowed to dress and act as the gender they identify.

[rug]

43. There are cases where such surgery is considered the best and most effective way.

If the child is in excruciating agony, should the physician agree to the parents' request for euthanasia?

[RedCappedBandit]

47. No

I'm against assisted suicide, but haven't considered every possible reason. That isn't what this thread is about, though.

I edited my first response, so please check it again.

[BrklynLiberal]

56. Is English your first language? I cannot seem to make sense out of anything you say..

[Sal Minella]

20. People who object to filling prescriptions shouldn't become pharmacists. Not rocket surgery, here.

If they can't do the job, they need to go into a different line of work, not hang around and try to force their dim-witted beliefs onto other people.

[rug]

28. What about non pharmacists?

[BrklynLiberal]

33. They should not be allowed to perform abortions.

:silly: :crazy:

[rug]

44. Must a doctor be compelled to perform an abortion?

[BrklynLiberal]

55. If he does not want to do abortions he should become a proctologist.

[rug]

113. I don't mind talking to assholes but I don't discuss assholes.

[mondo joe]

84. Only if it is his or her job to perform abortions. NT

[rug]

115. Should a medical school student be required to participate in abortions as part of her training?

[mondo joe]

117. It is an essential part of the medical education. It is, on occassion, a life

saving procedure. Any physician should have a basic knowledge.

Whether the student needs to participate in order to gain that knowledge is not something I'm qualified to say.

[JerseygirlCT]

191. Exactly

And people who cannot provide (or insure that such care will be provided) complete medical care for women ought not to go into a practice where that will be required.

Simple, really.

I'd like to see the AMA and whatever group oversees pharmacologists to insist on these standards as well.

Patients first. If your morals interfere - get a different line of work. You should take on the consequences, not your patient.

[PeaceNikki]

21. They should be compelled to find another line of work if they can't fill an Rx

The doctor made the decision to prescribe. It's none of the pharmacist's business why.

[rug]

30. Should the doctor be compelled to write the prescription?

[BrklynLiberal]

32. yes.

[rug]

45. Do you think any doctor can have a valid conscientious objection?

[BrklynLiberal]

57. The he has every right to CHOOSE ANOTHER FIELD or become a proctologist!!!

:crazy: :crazy: :silly: :silly: :wtf:
Habla Ingles?

[mondo joe]

88. Yes - and as a result they should not take a job requiring them to do that which

they find objectionable.

[JerseygirlCT]

192. Not if it's not based on his/her patient's health

objections to medication A because his studies have shown it to be less efficacious than believed? Ok.

"Moral" objections to say, birth control? No. That person needs to find a different practice where that conflict won't matter.

Bottom line is that the patient should not suffer for the doctor's personal beliefs that don't concern the patient.

A doctor can certainly limit her/his practice - I've had gyns who no longer deliver babies for instance. They let me know up front that they've curtailed that part of their practice, and if I need that service, they'll recommend someone. Ditto abortion services. If that's explained upfront, that can work.

But when a patient's health is compromised by a doctor's personal beliefs, I think the doctor has compromised his or her ethics.

[PeaceNikki]

37. If it's the proper course of treatment, yes.

Absolutely.

[rug]

46. So, the woman must have a proper reason?

[PeaceNikki]

48. Wow. You're thick.

[rug]

51. And you're unsubtle.

[PeaceNikki]

83. All treatment requires the "proper reason", Einstein.

If you waltz into a physician and say, "Hey, I feel like triple bypass surgery, doc!", they aren't compelled to do it. In fact, they ought not unless a "proper reason" exists.

[rug]

98. What proper reason do you want a woman to give for an abortion, Sanger?

[PeaceNikki]

101. A) Pregnant B) Doesn't want to be

[BrklynLiberal]

91. .

και είστε πολύ πολύ ηλίθιοι.

[BrklynLiberal]

62. Sie sind zu sogar dem Sorge-Antworten zu dumm.

[BrklynLiberal]

69. U bent te onwetend zelfs om te hinderen te antwoorden.

[BrklynLiberal]

90. U bent te onwetend zelfs om te hinderen te antwoorden.

[ismnotwasm]

96. Well there is a problem here with the way that question is posed

You either have a relatively narrow topic say abortion, or a broad topic, say, women who are able to bear children.

Let's broadened it shall we?


Should a doctor be compelled to write prescriptions for non pregnant women who can potentially get pregnant, knowing that a medication, say, an antibiotic or treatment for an autoimmune disorder would cause harm to a fetus or cause abortion?

Please, If yes, explain the difference to me. If no, explain where personal morals blend into medical practice and maintain the integrity of standard medical practice.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. No, they should not be forced against their will to, say, fill prescriptions they don't like.

They should be completely free to find another line of work.

[rug]

31. It's not about what they like. Do you think there are no valid conscientious objections?

[BrklynLiberal]

35. They can become pig farmers.....

[rug]

49. Or they can remain pharmacists consistent with their principles.

Or do you propose a moral test along with the licensing requirements?

[BrklynLiberal]

58. Is there a moral test fpr pig farmers?

[BrklynLiberal]

65. ..

Вы слишком глупы, чтобы даже потрудиться отвечать.

[mondo joe]

82. The license ought to require filling prescriptions as prscribed unless there is

a legitimate medical contraindication.

[rug]

111. That would be fair but it's not the law.

As it stands now, the fundamentalist management of a pharmacy chain can pass a blanket policy of not filling birth control prescriptions. Without penalty. This rule, while impacting reproductive rights, also provides some measure of protection to a fundamentaslist employee. It will require the employer to make a reasonable accommodation for religious and moral beliefs.

[mondo joe]

114. The fundamentalist employee's "protection" is uncalled for in such a scenario,

and comes at the expense of the health of the person looking to fill the prescription.

If a pharmacy fills birth control prescriptions, the pharmacists who work there ought to fill them.

[rug]

119. And a Hasid should be compelled to work there on Saturday.

That's not the law. A particular workers's right to conscience needn't come at the expense of anyone's health. Furthermore, if the solution is, if you don't like it get another job, the better answer is hire another worker who doesn't share the objection.

[BrklynLiberal]

120. ..

Ihre Unwissenheit und Arroganz sind über Beschreibung hinaus.

[mondo joe]

122. Employers have to make reasonable accommodation.

If it's not a significant imposition in performing the job, anyone can have his or her religious day off.

If, however, that prevents the employee from the normal function of the job it's not reasonable and the employee can find a more suitable job.

The solution is not to find someone who doesn't share the objection if the employer doesn't need another employee.

[rug]

134. You're simply depositing the right to make moral decisions with the owner, not the worker.

Should the owner have the right to make that decision. And is that right rooted in property rights? And since the worker has no property right to the pharmacy he should quit or be fired?

[mondo joe]

136. No. The worker has the moral decision to take the job or not, knowing the

implications.

Was there a physician draft forcing doctors to work at abortion providers?

[rug]

151. No but there was a conscientious objection to the draft that applied to physicians as well.

[mondo joe]

153. Physicians aren't drafted to work in settings where they may need to provide abortions.

Neither where they drafted to be physicians at all.

They made their choice.

[RedCappedBandit]

40. If they object to doing their job, they get another one.

I am an atheist, hence I will not try to become a Catholic priest. See how that works?

[rug]

52. So, no Hasidic pharmacist should work for a pharmacy that's open on Saturday.

Let's say the Hasidic pharmacist opens his own pharmacy and is closed on Saturday.

Should he be compelled to remain open on Saturdays?

See how that works?

[BrklynLiberal]

59. Simple. Just like you.

:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[rug]

99. Maybe you should put more effort into thought than smileys.

[BrklynLiberal]

63. Você é demasiado estúpido para incomodar até em responder.

[RedCappedBandit]

77. A hasidic pharmacist could work for the pharmacy that's open saturday

That person would have two options that I can see

A) Work Saturdays anyway, accepting the fact that there are things in life you have to do that you don't necessarily want to do.

B) Work something out with the manager to work around the scheduling conflict


Of course, your analogy has nothing to do with the actual argument here, which is whether or not that pharmacist, or a doctor, has a right to deny a patient the services he or she needs.

[rug]

100. The actual argument is whether a worker should be protected from firing for a moral objecti

And choice A belittles the strength of a moral objection.

[mondo joe]

106. And the answer is: if you morally object to a job, you can leave the job.

Or better yet, don't take it to begin with.

[RedCappedBandit]

110. And that argument is irrelevant

Under normal circumstances, it is reasonable that a person's place of work should facilitate his or her beliefs.
However, when it comes to patient health in the medical field, the ramifications are more serious and impact not only the employer and employee, but the people in their care. Hence, a doctor's personal beliefs have no place in dictating his patient's treatment. If you are unable to live with the fact that the health of your patient comes first, you should not be working in the medical field. PERIOD.

[rug]

121. It has nothing to do with beliefs affecting treatment.

The question is can the doctor be compelled to provide that treatment if he objects to that treatment, per se, on moral grounds. His belief affects the treatment not at all. The patient can receive the treatment from another doctor. While easier said than done, it's no less glib than telling the worker to find another job.

[mondo joe]

124. It's not up to the physician to decide what will or won't be provided on moral grounds,

unless he or she is in private practice.

[rug]

129. So you would afford a private practitioner protection but not to a staff doctor at a county hospital

[mondo joe]

130. It's not "protection". The owner of a business can always establish policy in

ways employees can't.

The staff physician's protection is to not take a job performing procedures he or she doesn't want to perform.

[RedCappedBandit]

133. I already answered this question multiple times

I don't see why you keep trying to ask the same question over and over. :shrug:

[Zhade]

163. No, they cannot be compelled. They either do it, or fucking quit.

NT!

[Zhade]

162. They took the job despite having the objection. Fuck them.

They aren't entitled to their job. They made their choice, they have to live with it.

[Tansy_Gold]

86. that's not a medical decision. your comparison is not valid

The Hasid who elects not to do business on Saturday is not making a medical decision based on his moral/religious beliefs. There are many pharmacies that are not open on Sundays or holidays.

[rug]

103. The implication goes far beyond the health field.

If you read the proposed rule, it provides job protection on matters of conscience. While this rule is limited to the medical field, it has far broader implications for workers.

[mondo joe]

107. For example: If you are opposed to burgers you can work at Burger King but refuse to sell

burgers, and your job will be protected.

Right?

[rug]

123. How many hospitals are called Abortion King?

The comparison is inapt.

[mondo joe]

126. How many physicians are expected to provide abortions on the job? Very few, and

only those who know they will have to, or may have to.

The analogy is perfectly accurate: no physician takes a job that may or will require providing abortions without knowing it.

[rug]

131. See your post 117.

And you're right, very few of a hospital's staff or resources are devoted to abortion. And the workers in those hospitals should be protected from assignment there if they have moral objections. The employer's rights do not trump this right.

[mondo joe]

132. If staff don't want to provide abortions they shouln't work at a facility that provides

them.

It's not a reasonable accommodation to not do the job you're hired to do, or to deny an available service to patients.

[rug]

137. If you're a nurse hired to work in neonatal ICU,

should you be compulsorily transferred to an abortion OR if you object on moral grounds?

[mondo joe]

140. If you work at a county hospital and that is a possibility (and I'm not saying it is),

then that's a choice you make.

My understanding is such a shift would be highly atypical. And if a reasonable accommodation could prevent it, it would be a non issue.

[mondo joe]

152. If I run a burger place and a vegetarian is hired to work the counter, but business

slows down and in order to keep her on staff she'd have to work the grill on occasion, can she be compelled to do so or lose her job?

Or do I have to let her only work the counter and hire an additional person I can't afford to work the grill?

[mondo joe]

94. Should someone who is opposed to selling burgers work at Burger King?

[mudesi]

97. YES

It's such a simple question with such a simple answer. His reasons for staying closed on Saturdays are illogical and irrational. If his religion is so important to him, then he needs to find a line of work flexible enough to work around those beliefs.

[rug]

102. Your opinion of what is irrational and illogical is not compelling.

[mondo joe]

104. Everyone is entitld to his or her irrational belief. They are not, however, entitled to

be paid to indulge their belief rather than to carry out the act for which they are paid.

[mudesi]

178. Not my opinion, just a fact

You are one of many here on DU who confuse opinion with fact.

To say you are against giving out birth control pills because a collection of books written over 2000 years ago says it's immoral is utterly irrational, period. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. The same applies if one is against giving out birth control pills because another man who wears a pointy hat and white robes says so.

Find a rational foundation for being against giving out birth control pills and then we can have an actual debate and discussion. Until then, there is one side who is right and one side who is wrong on this issue, and I don't think I need to tell you which is which.

[Quantess]

179. Or he could hire someone to fill in on his day off.

As anyone with common sense would.

[Zhade]

160. Correct.

NT!

[mudesi]

95. There are many valid conscientious objections

It's just that these particular objections are not valid at all.

[rug]

105. You see, if it's an objection rooted in conscience, it is not for you to say if it's valid.

[mondo joe]

23. No if they are conscripted. Otherwise, people should do the work for which they

are paid.

[rug]

34. So you give the choice to the employer. Should an employer refuse?

[BrklynLiberal]

36. No. He should pay unemployment insurance.

:silly: :silly: :crazy: :crazy:

[mondo joe]

78. The employee has the choice on taking the job.

If you don't want to serve burgers, don't work at McDonalds.

[BrklynLiberal]

26. If you have some problem with birth control, etc., do not go into pharmacy!

If you feel compelled to become a doctor, become a proctologist!!!
The same applies to nurses. Become a pediatric nurse or a veterinary assistant!!
What the hell kind of bullshit is it to go into gynecology and not provide the services you are
required to give to your patients!!!

A doctor or a pharmacist has no legal right to deny a patient treatment... under any circumstances!!!

If my conscience is against hunting, I do not go into the forest with a loaded gun!!!!!!!!

These people are hypocrites and liars. They go into this field, knowing in advance that they will find something they object to!!!

[rug]

38. Birth control and abortion are small parts of medicine.

Should a pediatrician perform female circumcision on a child if the parents ask for it?

[PeaceNikki]

42. Absurd comparison # 2

You're on a roll.

[rug]

53. Medicine is full of "absurd" dilemmas.

An unconsidered post on a message board does nothing to resolve the implications of the post.

[BrklynLiberal]

60. Vous êtes trop stupides pour même tracasser de répondre.

[BrklynLiberal]

68. .

您是太无知的以至于不能甚而麻烦回答。

[Pastiche423]

85. I was doing so well translating your posts

until I came to this one.

P.S. I agree w/what they all said.

[BrklynLiberal]

89. Congrats..and thanks for agreeing.

You can assume this is pretty much the same sentiment..
:thumbsup: :hi:

[rug]

125. I enjoyed you Babelfish exercise more than your usual babble,

[BrklynLiberal]

143. Ihre Unwissenheit und Arroganz sind über Beschreibung hinaus.

[rug]

147. Pulsus mihi.

[BrklynLiberal]

150. Congettura che cosa. Siete ora sopra ignorate. arrivederci.

[Pastiche423]

148. Thought so!

[Ilsa]

75. Why would any doctor perform a surgery that they are not trained in? nt

[RedCappedBandit]

81. If you can't fulfill the needs of your patients

as a doctor in a given field, you have no business being a doctor in that field.

[Ilsa]

118. Yeah, I am in agreement with you on the main issue and your comment.

My point is that the question was ludicrous to begin with. Female circ isn't performed in the US by ANY medical doctors. There is no training for it. It was a BS question.

And yes, the pharmacists should dispense any legally written prescription. There is not reason for them not to unless they find an error made by the doc. Personal beliefs should not be part of the practice of dispensing meds.

[defendandprotect]

144. They used to all be trained to do abortion...now NONE are ---

I think you have to request it to get that training now ..

Keep in mind some of this can be emergency for women --- not planned --

[Ilsa]

175. I think it is still part of the training for specialty in OBGYN. It would have

to be, in order to perform D&C after spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) with complications. But I could be wrong.

[mondo joe]

79. Abortion is not something everyone is well trained to do. Filling prescriptions is

essentially the same function regardless of the medication.

No one is forced to take a job performing abortions.

[rug]

108. So, a physician can cease performing abortions?

[mondo joe]

109. If a physician has taken a position which requires providing abortions, he or she can

leave that job.

Most physicians don't provide abortions and don't have jobs that require doing so.

[PeaceNikki]

112. Exactly.

One would not become an OB/GYN who performs abortions if they had objections for moral reasons. And it's unreasonable to think that someone would go to a ENT doc and ask for an abortion.

What a silly argument.

[mondo joe]

116. There are few enough abortion providers in the US. If you work for one, you knew

what you were doing when you took the job.

[defendandprotect]

142. The Medical schools stopped teaching it, for one --

[rug]

145. What's number two?

http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2005/10/26/Focus/Brown.Med.School.Continues.To.Develop.Abortion.Curriculum-1034195.shtml

[defendandprotect]

174. Two .. where abortion info made available ...it's elective --

Students who opt to participate in the elective abortion training observe about four or five abortions performed by surgeons at WIH. These sessions are strictly hands-off, and medical students are never allowed to participate in the procedures. Students also attend sessions at PPRI where women considering abortion receive counseling.

Good article --


:)

[RedCappedBandit]

80. This comparison is, as another poster said, absurd

Offering birth control is beneficial and satisfies the needs of a patient.
Female circumcision has no medical benefit, is a form of mutilation, and not a valid medical practice.
The two situations are simply NOT comparable.

[juno jones]

190. Female circumcision is a 'religious' thing.

Are you proposing that doctors be allowed to follow only their religious dictates without care for the safety and mores of secular society?

Slippery slope that, and the real scenario under which such acts would become possible, as allowed by religious conscience.

[Quantess]

193. I believe FGM is illegal in the United States.

[Lucian]

67. If I could recommend a post, I'd recommend this one.

[BrklynLiberal]

70. Thanks.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Lucian]

64. They should find another fucking job if they can't do their job.

It's not that hard to figure out.

[mudesi]

93. Their objections are based on absurd and false religious beliefs

So yes, they need to be forced to do their jobs despite their brain damage.

If they can't get past their psychological instabilities, they can seek therapy or they can join the clergy and be among their own.

It frankly scares me that religious fundamentalists are even permitted to practice medicine at all.

[rug]

139. Why don't you work on revoking medical licenses for theists.

[BrklynLiberal]

146. Gettare la vostri arroganza e

shallowness deve dargli una grande emozione. Fa il resto di noi pensarlo è un idiota.

[rug]

156. Exquisite rendering of "shallowness".

[mudesi]

176. If I could I would (nm)

[Zhade]

159. If they want to keep their job? Fuck yes. They knew the job when they signed up.

NT!

[BrklynLiberal]

24. I hope that Obama can reinstate separation of church and state, and

force physicians to abide by their Hippocratic oath.

This is DISGUSTING!!!!!!!

[Fleshdancer]

50. breaking news: Bob Jones University becomes a "medical" school

How ironic that a man with absolutely NO conscience whatsoever is attempting to push through such bullshit. Too bad I'm not surprised.

[Lucian]

61. If any doctors, nurses, pharmacists, etc find ANY part of medical science...

"morally objectionable", then they should NOT be in the medical/health care field.

Where does Dubya plan to draw the line on this issue? What if a doctor doesn't want to give open heart surgery to a 95 year old because they find it "morally objectionable"?

[davsand]

71. I find the asswipe's regime "morally objectionable." I never got to say no to that.

Where is the f***ing fairness in THAT?


_____

Something I do want to point out, however, is that women's clinics still will stand, women will still get scrips filled for EC or even BC Pills, and tubal ligations will still be happening someplace. It may not be happening next door to your house, but it IS still gonna be happening and there isn't shit the fundies can say about it because there will ALWAYS be care providers who are willing to do the right thing for their patients.

Plus, there is soon gonna be a new sheriff in town, and I doubt there was a law ever made that can't be UN-made. Obama came from a state that has passed laws regarding a woman's right to access birth control and health care. HE knows better even if the chimp doesn't.



Laura

[Hekate]

127. So I see my internist about this clogged artery, but he doesn't "believe in" open heart surgery...

He's under no obligation to refer me to a cardiologist now, right? Or discuss it, or anything?

I'd like to know just how broad this directive is, and how many loopholes for malpractice there really are in it.

Hekate

[mondo joe]

128. I'm waiting for a Planned Parenthood clinic to hire an RN who - after being hired - declares

that she opposes abortion and won't do anything related to abortion. Or birth control.

And then is supposed to keep getting paid to do nothing.

[rug]

141. The link is in #17, all 42 pages.

[Hekate]

158. You've posted a brazillion objections to our objections in this thread. Why? Existing laws...

Before Bush and his loonies entered the scene, existing laws and existing medical protocol were entirely enough to protect the interests of both patients and medical providers. Bush (and his loonies) are only interested in dividing us into ever smaller and more hostile segments, not in protecting the unborn/the helpless as they claim.

Hekate

[Hekate]

188. Hello? Are the brazillion objections over for now? nt

[defendandprotect]

138. OK -- let's take back our tax dollars from all the churches ....

Meanwhile, this won't be based on conscience but on intimidation --

A gynecologist who won't discuss/prescribe birth control --!!???

[Hekate]

161. I am increasingly supportive of that stance. Bush destroyed the separation of church and state...

... and as Boxer told Inhofe about elections, "there are consequences". In this case, the consequences ought to be an end to the special status churches have traditionally enjoyed in this country.

Hekate

[libnnc]

154. So does that mean that if

something were to happen to me that puts me in the hospital -- is it possible that someone on the nursing staff could decide that their belief in jeebus prevents them from allowing my partner to visit me? Fuck that noise.


Keep your fundamentalism out of my health care!

[Cid_B]

157. What about...

... the death sentence and suicide?

[SeattleGirl]

167. Well, since they don't involve a fetus, they don't matter to those

assholes.

Sanctimonious fuckers!

[SeattleGirl]

166. You know, though, if it were his daughters who got pregnant and

for whatever reason, didn't want the child, or would be facing a bad medical situation, those girls would be an abortion immediately.

Fuck him, and fuck all the fucking asshats who keep putting their bibles and their fucked up beliefs off on women they have no business messing with!

[Hekate]

168. Sure, but they can afford to fly to Switzerland or England on "vacation" so it doesn't apply to them

Or if they didn't want to go out of the country, there's always some country-club doc who could oblige his wealthier patients.

Just like in the Bad Old Days before Roe vs Wade. Laws, like taxes, are for the little people.

Hekate

[SeattleGirl]

169. You said it.

Pisses me off beyond words.