I'm so damn sick of hearing I made $80/hr

[Nightflurry]

I'm getting really tired of this meme. I heard a caller to CNN today saying autoworkers need to take a 50% pay cut because they're making $80 an hour and watching a machine work for them. Let me tell you some things.

I worked at a Ford plant on a F150 line from 2006-2007. I worked my ass off. I sweat in well over 100 degree heat, I bled from injuries, I had constant severe back pains, and many other things. Every week the emergency bell went off in the plant and people were rushed to the hospital with serious injuries. I don't remember any machine doing any work for me at all. Those little video clips you see on the news are not the norm for auto plants any more than the images of Iraq on CNN are. They're sanitized images.

Oh, I made $14.84/hr as well. They don't pay people $28 anymore unless you were working there since before the two-tiered wage structure was enacted. I also got almost no benefits. My medical insurance was ER only. No drug coverage, no office calls. I got sick last fall with a kidney infection and it cost me $4,000 even with my so called insurance. I didn't get paid time off for being severely ill either.

Mind you, this is a UAW job with the Big 3.

I'm so goddamn sick of being told I just made too much money and had it sooooo good. Nobody would work like an animal like that for $14 an hour unless they had no choice, and people don't.

I was laid off at the end of this July. I have no "Job Bank" or any such, another concession the union made for newer workers. I just collect unemployment and beg for a fast food or retail job.


Sorry, needed to vent. I know none of you people know me. Have a good day, and don't believe this anti-union lie the media is spreading.

[Warpy]

1. That stupid meme set off the bullshit meters here at DU

but thanks for telling it like it really is.

The problem is that this has turned into a nation of lazy fools who will believe any piece of hateful crap the right wing noise machine spews because they won't take the trouble to check it out. Worse still are the "news" outlets that pick it up without challenging it.

I hope you find something soon that will pay the bills without wrecking your body.

[Venceremos]

2. Sick of it too

This $80 an hour meme is sheer nonsense. I'm betting even the "old hires" don't earn that much. The media gets that figure from combining their actual salary plus the "estimated" value of all their benefits combined.

My husband worked a UAW job for 30 years, although at a farm implement plant in Illinois (not the Big 3 auto in Detroit). Whenever the local press was angry at the union, they would use the same tactic of combining hourly wage (BEFORE taxes) with estimated benefits. It's a load of BS, but it works like a charm to get the masses pissed off at unions.

[Nightflurry]

5. The old hires get $28

The old timers get 28 give or take a dollar. My dad worked at the plant I did for 34 years, he had it a lot better than I ever will, but he certainly wasn't rich.

[LiberalFighter]

20. I sure didn't consider myself rich. I don't have a big house.

I have been driving the same vehicle I bought brand new in 1998. I don't have any other vehicles or recreational vehicles.

And as a retiree I am scared of what might happen. I saved a lot for my 401k and have doubts about its future.

[applejuice]

150. And don't forget many to MOST old-timers have gone through tough times over the years...

My dad has worked in steel mills for about 30 years and while he is doing pretty well at the moment, he went through hell when we were kids, laid off numerous times. We lived as a family of six on a minimum wage job for some time. I can't go into all the details here but it was very very bad.

When he finally got back to work with the same company it was at a plant 2 hrs from our home.

I don't suspect any "old-timer" in the auto or steel industry has had it extremely easy over the years.

[Nightflurry]

156. Certainly

That line of work has always been feast or famine it seems. My dad had times he was laid off as well when I was growing up.

[LiberalFighter]

18. They would even include such amenities as parking space, restroom facilities, etc.

Probably also include plowing the parking spaces so the employees could park.

[On the Road]

127. Oh Dear God

I understand including benefit costs provided they are described properly, but those examples are ridiculous and insulting.

[bean fidhleir]

111. It's not just salary plus bennies, it's the FULL BURDEN

Each full-time slot in product development is burdened for budgeting purposes with a pro-rata share of ALL OVERHEAD costs, including management, personnel, finance, marketing, admin, etc. Anything not directly involved in product development is overhead.

So each body out there on the assembly line is carrying on her or his back a piece of all the costs in the rest of the company that are not *directly* involved in getting product out the door.

[Bluzmann57]

134. I think I have a good idea where your hubby was at.

And if it's what I think, the company brought in a guy specifically to break the Union and it worked. The company went bankrupt, but by golly, they weren't Unionized anymore.

[bulloney]

135. KO pointed out several days ago the $70 combines current and legacy benefit costs

divided by the number of UAW members who are still working.

[tclambert]

136. No, no, no, it's worse than that.

One of the threads here (sorry, I didn't bookmark it) ran down the origin of the $80/hour myth. Some journalist totaled all people costs, including retiree pensions and retiree health care as well as active workers' salaries and bennies, then divided by the number of currently active employees, forgetting to add in the retirees. And he arrived at $78/hour. And now they're compounding the error by rounding up to $80/hour.

I just saw a TV news story that got it right (or closer anyway). They quoted $23.50/hour for workers at an older, normal factory, and $15/hour at the most modern plant.

The way to fight this might be to respond to any use of the $80/hour figure with, "You must mean $18/hour. You said it wrong." That's not exactly right, but it's a helluva lot closer.

[illuminaughty]

161. That's how I understood it too.

A huge distortion with the figures and the idiots just hear it passed around, repeat it and believe it.

[onehandle]

3. Agreed. K&R. nt

[CK_John]

4. It's not take home but cost of labor to the companies, an accounting concept. n/t

[JHB]

23. How much you want to bet that number includes...

...executive pensions lumped in with line worker and other employee pensions?

[awoke_in_2003]

48. of course they are...

and just one $1 million salary does some skewing.

[safeinOhio]

76. Labor is 8% of the total cost of a car

Transportation is 30%. Now tell me why it is cheaper to build a car in South America or overseas?
Why do imports get better gas mileage? Those other countries have had high taxes and 5 or 6 dollar gas for decades. If we had the same, our cars would be very different today. Yet it is all the UAWs fault.

[aggiesal]

147. A couple of years back the WSJ did a report on ...

the Big 3 automakers, and determined that the reason american cars cost so much
is because of the pension plan.
They also mentioned that it was the executive pension plan that inflated the cost of
the vehicle and not the workers pension plan.

Go figure.

[JHB]

171. I remembered that report too.

It's why I brought up the point here.

[HughBeaumont]

6. Anyone who parades the "blue collar work is easy" chestnut has never done it.

During inventory time at the auto parts warehouse I used to work at, everyone was required to be out on the floor. Even the senior guys made no more than $18 an hour and did work that made much of their upper body and arms awash in pain. I couldn't even imagine working in tool and die shops with air hammers and tons of noise. My dad had to LIVE in a steel mill for 37 years just to provide for all of us. He now has severe back pain and a defibrilator. He's lucky he retired.

Worker-blame for corporate screw-ups is the tool of the laissez-FAIL set. Unions gave EVERY worker almost all the rights they know and take for granted.

It amazes me that people think $50,000/year is a king's ransom. Do they not get that's what the average American SHOULD be earning if wages kept up with productivity and inflation these past three decades?

[Nightflurry]

8. Agreed

There were times I spent 80 hours a week in that place, and it certainly wasn't cozy, or quiet. I made 35k in the year I worked there, my dad used to make about 60k.


Nice signature, love that movie.

[LiberalFighter]

24. And consider that autoworkers produced over $200 of value per hour with their labor.

And UAW autoworkers are by far more efficient than non-union autoworkers.

[leveymg]

74. That puts them up there with Associates in big DC law firms

Only auto assemblers aren't making $160,000 in their first year.

The economic priorities and rewards systems in this society are s-o-o-o screwed up!

[LiberalFighter]

77. Except lawyers charge for ten minutes even if it is for just one minute.

There are probably some lawyers that don't use that pricing method.

When I started at GM over 30 years ago I was paid around $7 an hour. We worked 2 out of 3 Saturdays most of the time back then.

[awoke_in_2003]

49. "Unions gave EVERY worker almost all the rights"

And as a non-union worker (not by choice) I thank all those who, in the past, bled and died for workers rights. Americans don't know their history. Without unions, we would still be living Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle"

[AZ Criminal JD]

57. Maybe if time stopped in 1908 we would still be living in "The Jungle"

But this is 2008. Roosevelt instituted reforms such as a minimum wage and overtime protection. As time went on agencies such as the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, Mine Safety, Pension Guarantee Corp were set up to protect workers. "The Jungle" is a thing of the past and has little to do with unions.

[awoke_in_2003]

58. You might want to take a look

at how long unions have been around. The teamsters alone go back to 1903. These reforms that the government enacted would have NEVER been instituted with the people demanding it. The government is there to protect their bosses, and only act when we the people start to get restless.

[Hippo_Tron]

153. Unions were an essential part of Roosevelt's political base

And part of the way he built up the middle class he did was to pass legislation strengthening union power.

[amborin]

166. only unions protect workers, none of those agencies you mentioned protect anyone

[Kitty Herder]

7. K&R

[cascadiance]

9. Those people complaining about what you make would be better off lobbying for Universal Health Care.

One of the requirements for getting an automotive industry bailout should be that the auto industry supports and lobbies for universal health care, which would take away one of their big costs, and not affect their workers in any adverse way that wage cuts or trying to destroy their union contracts would.

[Nightflurry]

13. I hear ya.

The UAW has been for universal healthcare for awhile now. All the monthly union letters always spent a good portion talking about that issue.

The companies know it saves money, otherwise they'd not have moved some plants to Canada. It's not like Canadian labor is especially cheap, they just don't have to pay the CAW workers health benefits. It's beyond me why they don't lobby for it here.

[HughBeaumont]

39. Because it would step on the toes of the insurance conglomerates.

The wealthy look out for each other . . . even if it means killing their businesses and the economy.

And why not? They gots THEIRS.

[LiberalFighter]

25. I had a chat with the plant manager of the local truck plant during our rally.

Asked him what his position was on single payer national universal heath care. Mentioning that when insurance companies are prohibited from it there would be a 30% or more savings.

[Fleshdancer]

10. Knowing the conditions you worked in, I wish you did make that much

I agree with your point though. This meme needs to die a quick death.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. A big K&R. n/t

[boomerbust]

12. I would love to see

These CNBC cowards work on the auto line for 14 bucks an hour. Like Larry Kudlow, Maria Barfaromo, Charlie Gasbagarino, Melissa Francis, and Dennis what's his name. These right wing hacks make me ill.

[Nightflurry]

14. They'd be in tears at even twice that n/t

[LiberalFighter]

26. They would die of a heart attack.

[truedelphi]

45. That would truly be priceless. n/t

[Rambis]

15. 40$ an hour to put on 5 bolts

That is what my faux news watching neighbor tried to pass off as fact at a group gathering last weekend. I always have to call bullshit in this guy every time!
Me....
"Where did you get that load of shite?"
Him... well, um no answer
Me...."that is a myth- It sounds good but not one thing about it is true"
One of these days I am going to lose it and beat the piss outta this useless bastard because he never stops.

[Nightflurry]

19. Oh man

If you got that kinda money for that little work there'd be people lined up for miles at every plant in the country trying to get a job.

[LiberalFighter]

28. You got that right. There isn't one job in an auto plant that involves just 5 bolts to put on.

In some cases there are multi-tasked type of jobs. Maybe an assembler sets 5 nuts in the tool and applies the tool to the tire and tightens the nuts. And then there would be other tasks to complete while those bolts are tighten down.

I bet your neighbor would end up stripping the bolts trying to keep up and failing to complete the rest of the tasks for the job.

[tclambert]

138. If there were a 5-bolt job, it might pay $14/hour, but you'd have only

about 30 seconds to put the 5 bolts on. And then you'd put another set of 5 on every 30 seconds for 8 hours. That would be 4800 bolts a day. Nobody would design a job like that anymore. Maybe in the long ago. Today, plant designers know better. That kind of job would drive anyone stark staring mad. You have to give workers more variety.

[EstimatedProphet]

16. Even if they all made $80 an hour, so what?

That still would not be the reason they needed a bailout. the reason they need a bailout is because the CEOs and execs make $$300 MILLION per year!

[tclambert]

139. THAT IS A GREAT PICTURE!

The Eye of Sauron on the White House! That is . . . precious.

[pampango]

17. There's another OP in GD that has info that in some recent years workers made more at Toyota

factories in the US than workers at GM.

"Typical hourly wages at Honda, Nissan and Toyota are only slightly lower. Due to the effect of profit-sharing formulas, however, there have been some recent years in which a typical Toyota worker has taken home a larger annual paycheck than a typical GM worker."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4578894

[LiberalFighter]

31. GM received little if any profit sharing too.

And in my opinion GM would intentionally divert profits from the US manufacturing to other divisions of the company. Such as the EDS (computer) division. IMO GM would contract to EDS outrageous fees for work that wasn't justified.

Workers only received profit sharing based on US plant operations.

[Nederland]

34. Question

Are Toyota workers unionized?

[druidity33]

40. NO. nt

[totodeinhere]

67. If that's true, then what's wrong with the domestic auto makers?

I don't see Toyota or Honda or any other foreign auto makers asking for billions in bail out money, and they make plenty of their autos right here in the good old USA, and according to your information their labor costs are about the same as what the domestic auto makers have to pay. I agree that this crisis is not the fault of the auto workers, but then whose fault is it?

[pampango]

75. Bad management, which is why "strings" have to be attached to any aid to the auto industry.

To give current management $25-$34 billion quickly and "strings-free" would make us enablers of bad management who would feel justified in continuing with business as usual. This would not only do nothing for auto workers long term, it would harm them by enabling management to avoid making changes that would make the industry a viable place to work for decades to come.

[whathappened]

89. they would be getting there loans

fron there own home lands , and i think there are hurting to , so maybe they will have to shut there shops down here to

[tclambert]

140. They are hurting:

Here's November sales figures for the Japanese big 3:

Toyota - down 34% from a year ago.
Nissan - down 42%
Honda - down 32%

[CC]

98. Foreign car makers that assemble their

cars here only assemble a small portion of their total cars in the US and only a few models. Most of the parts are made overseas with cheaper labor and low to no health benefit cost (government supplied health care coverage) then shipped here for assembly.

They have only been in the US for a few decades and do not have the pensions to support that the big 3 have. I am not sure what they do now since I haven't worked there but I doubt they have a pension setup like the big 3 used to have and is still paying for. Many do not have to worry about high pension cost in their country of origin either.

Many of them have gotten financial help in one form or another from their governments. It may not be called a bailout but a money infusion is still money no matter whose government does the giving.

All that said the big 3 have still made some major mistakes and should have major over site for a long while if they get taxpayer money. Management should have to pay for their bad decisions even if it means replacing them with more competent and less arrogant people. This coddling of the rich, over priced CEO bullshit has got to stop, Too many of them are getting away with running companies into the ground and tearing apart our economy and the few good ones we will never hear about because they aren't demanding handouts.

Union workers on the whole are hard working people that suffer through regular lay offs, specially the first few years they work for a company. Yes there are also some that take advantage but then there are people like that in every facet of the world. Still no reason to paint all union workers as lazy or bad.

[Oldtimeralso]

118. Another Item of Interest

How many of the Foreign car plants in the US were given incentives to locate here by State and Local governments, ie. Property tax breaks, Low interest loans, use of eminent domain to acquire land et al.

[totodeinhere]

157. Many parts used by the domestic auto makers are also assembled abroad...

using cheaper labor. The entire auto industry is international.

[Oldtimeralso]

123. Foreign car assembly in the US..

can also be costly as VW found out with their plant in PA which they closed and shipped the work to Mexico.

[Hippo_Tron]

155. Japan has Universal Health Care

[amborin]

168. they do that also as a union busting strategy

....pay somewhat near a union wage

all the while denying pensions,etc...and running their lines much faster

[sinkingfeeling]

21. Anybody who brings up this crap should be slapped back down. I didn't hear a word about how much

money a 'mover and shaker' on Wall Street, selling credit default swaps makes an hour. But our marvelous government sure didn't bat an eye jumping in with hundreds of billions of dollars for them.

[phusion]

22. $28/hr doesn't make you rich either...

especially with kids.

[carnie_sf]

92. I agree

I work at UPS (Teamsters) and our top drivers make $29, and I wouldn't call any of them rich.

[yardwork]

112. $58,240. Not much for a family of four, especially with prices going up.

That's not rich.

[MindPilot]

27. Yeah, seeing the line on TV is nothing.

You have to physically experience it to understand. My first thought the first time I was in a car plant (late 70's, Ford's small car plant in Milpitas, CA -- near San Jose) was "you could not pay me enough to do that job."

And when they blame the workers and the union, the big purple elephant in the room is that the company negotiated and agreed to contracts with the unions; so if the labor costs are too high, whose fault is that?

[progressoid]

29. Tell CNN too!

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/dotcom/

[Sadie5]

30. That $80 per hour wage

is a skewed figure just like the rest of GMs bookkeeping is messed up. By the time Waggoner's accountants added in the $28 per hour wage, lousy insurance benefits with inflated numbers, social security paid on behalf of the workers(GMs half), PSP matching funds and the cost of replacing the toilet in the employees restroom they came up with this wage. My husband worked for GM for 34 years but I don't see anything changing until Waggoner is outed and international outsourcing is stopped.Rumor is that Waggoner is all set to invest some of his bailout money in a Brazil plant, wonder if Pelosi will stop him from doing that.

[awoke_in_2003]

50. "wonder if Pelosi will stop him from doing that"

you probably already know the answer to that :(

[yodoobo]

32. Thats true. The $70'ish figure doesn't take into account 2 tier wages

The 70'ish figure is accurate as a figure for total employee expenses for long time employees.

But for folks hired in more recently, its nowhere near $70.

If you made $14,84 an hour, then your total cost is probably about $30 an hour. (Not quite double since they also stiffed you on benefits)

[Erin Elizabeth]

33. Yep, Sounds very similar to how I occasionally hear about

how teachers have it SO easy and make SO much for only working from 8 to 3 and getting a billion vacations a year. If you even remotely believe any of that, let me know, I'll set you straight (you in the general sense here).

I feel ya.

[awoke_in_2003]

51. Teachers are probably

the most underpaid people in the country. Don't know what state you are in, but our (Texas) schools are so underfunded, it is not unusual for teachers to purchase class supplies out of pocket.

[Night_Nurse]

145. Let's not forget nurses, either :-) nt

[awoke_in_2003]

151. Especially

the dreamy nurses :hi:

[Roon]

158. Nurses rule!

I spent a moderate time in the hospital last year and have really grown to like nurses. I was in ICU and I got a sponge bath and I was comatose. I was aware enough to enjoy my sponge bath though. They use this crazy dried powder to wash your hair. It was wonderful!

I agree, nurses are way underpaid and are in great demand. Maybe a nurse will hang out for awhile if you gave them a livable wage!

[donco6]

56. On AVERAGE, our teachers make $35/hr.

That's WITH vacations considered. And that's averaging ALL teachers, not the median.

I think that's pathetic, but we've actually increased it quite a bit from where it was when I started here.

[CTD]

35. $70/hr is the COST to the manufacturer, not what YOU get

There are other costs to an employer that are directly related to your employment - things like your benefits. And they are typically presented in terms of a % add-on to your actual wage rate (what YOU get). 40% is typical for benefits alone. And union shops tend to fare better than others in terms of benefits - it's one reason why workers like unions. Then there are the retirement costs.

So with all costs included, a $30-40/hr wage rate could easily turn into a full cost to your employer of $70-80/hr.

And, apples to apples, that is actually a lot higher than the cost of labor non-union foreign manufacturers pay.

[joeunderdog]

61. A total bullshit stat. Designed to be misleading.

I have defended the UAW employees to even liberals who are somehow believing the 80/hr lie. They include health benefits and retirement for current AND PAST employees, electricity and toilet paper for all I know.

Why haven't the handouts for Citibank and AIG been held to the same standard of scrutiny and the same method of salary computation as the Big 3?

[sunnystarr]

79. The $70/$80 myth has already been debunked

It was based on the hourly rate plus the health benefits plus the pensions plus holiday/vacation time of all retirees and cuurent workforce divided by only the current workforce. Republican math to take down the unions.

[desktop]

82. I just cruised by the 700 Club and Pat Robertson says they make $70 an hour

That comes directly from God, so it's got to be true.

[Enthusiast]

96. They repeated the same bullshit on CBS

just yesterday evening! Corporate media.

[tclambert]

142. According to First Kings and the Second Book of Chronicles, the value of pi is 3.0 even.

God not so good at math.

There have been two attempts by state legislators (different states) to legislate the value of pi as 3.0 even, because the Bible says so. The measures did not pass. Indiana was one of the states. Can't remember the other.

(On further checking, one of the stories about legislating the value of pi appears to have been a hoax. And the Indiana attempt, though real, may not have been about the Bible. But the Bible does say Solomon made a pool in the temple, perfectly circular, that was ten cubits across and thirty cubits around.)

[illuminaughty]

164. Wow that's a weird coincidence.

I was just reading about this the other night. Pi being 3.0 in the Bible. Was on a website listing errors in the Bible and it had a whole list of numerical/scientific errors.

It also corrected the idea that the Bible said the earth was a sphere. It actually translates to "circle" and the way it is described it is obvious it meant a flat surface.

[lizziegrace]

130. If I had time, I'd look for the Olbermann video

he debunked the $80/hour myth with with the exact information and formula you posted. Unfortunately, the people spewing this bullshit aren't watching Olbermann.

[NorCalDem]

91. wow, you are grossly misinformed....

one only gets to the $70-80 per hour stat if you ADD IN THE COST OF ALL RETIREE COMPENSATION (roughly 600,000 former employees) costs and divide it by the current workforce (roughly 150,000 to 200,000 or so). THIS is how that number was obtained, and it's grossly misleading, a fudged statistic, and a borderline lie.

CURRENT employees cost the company no where even close to $70 or 80 an hour, and the fact that you believe that stat as provided is laughable.

[yardwork]

113. So what's the "real" cost to the manufacturer of management's salaries?

If people making $15 an hour cost the company $70, how much do the managers making $200,000 per year cost the company? Or the CEO making $200 million?

[Night_Nurse]

146. How much...

do those private jets cost the company, hmmmm?

[madrchsod]

36. i`m really fucking fed up with the anti-union shit

the only people who trash the unions are people who never busted their ass in the heat or cold.

at least i can look at my hands i know i worked hard for a living....

[rebel with a cause]

66. I worked in union and non-union factories

and none of them were a piece of cake, but the difference between them was quite noticeable. One of the big differences was in the pay rates of the workers. In the union shops, wages were regulated and everyone was paid on the same pay scale. Non-union was not the same. Some people made a lot more than others, we were not allowed to disclose our pay rate so we would not know who made what. I am not a secretive person and I don't like unreasonable rules, so I soon found out that some were making more than I was and others were making a lot less. I have a fairness issue, so this was definately not for me.

There were more differences such as workers protection for unfair treatment and others, but I will leave it with just these examples.

[amborin]

169. denying workers info on wages is a standard non union ploy

[cboy4]

37. Just an example of how lazy-minded some people are.

Can't even put two and two together on their own.

It's embarrassing.

And I'm sorry for your situation. It sucks, I know.

[proud patriot]

38. Venting can be a good thing

I'm sorry about your employment situation.

It's going to be a rough year , but I really believe
lots of new jobs will be created soon .

my best

[JuniperLea]

41. I find it annoying that this isn't brought up in the press...

They just keep letting them lie like this! I'd like to see the Toyota $40/hr figure they keep touting broken down. I'm betting they are comparing apples and oranges.

I've known a lot of auto workers and I've never known one to make more than $30/hr, and they had been with the company 30 years!

I'm sick of the auto company big wigs too. They burn their candle at both ends... pump up the workers with their "poor us" routine, then what do they do first? Tell the world they plan a massive worker lay-off! Bastards! We should be able to see their total compensation figures! I bet we could find enough EXTRA CASH in those to keep the actual WORKERS working!

This whole thing is on my last nerve too. Venting is good... no apologies needed.

Edited to say... if we worked on getting single payer healthcare, we could save a lot of these jobs!

[Nightflurry]

43. Hey I agree

I worked for those CEO assholes, I dislike them way more than the average American I bet.

Think about it though, if everyone who had a shitty boss had to lose their job over it and half the country cheered it on it'd get pretty depressing to them, too.

[Synnical]

42. I heard it today from our company Insurance Agent

Had to set him straight.

[rucky]

44. So would you go back to work at a 50% pay cut - to $40/hr?

If not, can I have the job?

[Liberal In Texas]

46. K&R - Welcome to DU.

[awoke_in_2003]

47. I grew up in Cleveland...

And just about every one I knew worked at either Ford or Chevy. When I hear this union trashing crap it rankles me to no end. Every member of my grandfathers congregation were hard working middle class Joes, not some overpriviledged workers (unlike management). They went to work every day, punched the clock, and gave the company 8 hours of sweat. In return, they got paid decent(at least up to the late 80's)- but by no means were they overpaid.

[madmom]

52. No need to apologize Nightflurry, being from an auto worker family I know where

you are coming from. It's really disheartening when people say "let them fail and let the chips fall where they may" These people just don't understand what a job like that takes out of a person. It's like we are totally irrelevant now so go away. Unions are made up of strong people and we need to fight the good fight.I hope things work out for you.:hug:

[windoe]

53. Reality check

This is why Joe the Plumber propaganda BS was such a slap in the face to people who work their asses off, lost jobs and have no benefits.

The truth needs to go viral on the internet until the saturation of it spills over to the mainstream. The citizenry needs to be "bailed out", not the richest investors who gambled away OUR money. We have had our tax money wasted on criminal activities when it should have gone back into the system to maintain it. The system crumbled, not because of some mysterious depression, it is because our tax money was given to rich investors and CEOs who never did their jobs, which was to manage companies and support the workers. They do not deserve to be rewarded for this, they should be fired, and the workers compensated. This is such a criminal corrupt time we live in, and mainstream misinformation is the exact opposite of what is really happening!!

[Laelth]

54. Please, continue to tell your story.

People need to know the truth.

:patriot:

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[sarcasmo]

55. Thanks for stating the facts. Tired of the UAW hating at this so called liberal site.

[libnnc]

59. my local tv news aired a bull crap segment tonight

spouting that $80 an hour meme and they threw in an absurd statement about how sometimes workers just "hang around and do nothing". I couldn't believe it. It was a prepacked story directly from GM and had the most anti-union bent to it I've ever seen. The media is eating up that message. Someone needs to get the truth out there.

[Nightflurry]

60. Wee

Like I said upthread a bit. If these jobs paid that damn much and were so easy everyone in the US would want a job there. Hell why go to college at all when you can just sleep 8 hours a day for $80 an hour!

It doesn't even make sense, and people are eating it up.

[knitter4democracy]

62. Was that at Michigan Truck?

My brother helped re-do that line, so I was just wondering.

[Nightflurry]

64. Nope

Was a parts plant, not assembly.

[knitter4democracy]

133. Ah. Talk about hard work.

I don't think people get how difficult factory work is. There's always a time crunch on meeting orders, and then there's always something going wrong. Thank you for doing that job, though. You've helped a lot of families have the transportation they need to keep their jobs and get to and from school.

[no limit]

63. I'm sorry about your situation, that sucks.

[annm4peace]

65. is there a website with the true data?

I believe all what you are saying.. I live near a ford plant and I don't see people who look like they make 80.00 an hour.

But I need a site or a link or something to show the idiots who keep telling me the big 3 are going down because of union wages.

I'll cut and paste your story to them, but of course they will want some type of source.

[Nightflurry]

105. You know, I don't know.

I don't know I really have a way to prove what I said is true short of photographing my income tax returns, which I'm not going to do.

I'm sure the UAW has a website that details everything..

[illuminaughty]

165. Here is the video of Keith Olbermann

breaking down the figures.
http://vivosvoco.blogspot.com/2008/11/myth-of-70hour-auto-worker.html

[MrMickeysMom]

68. We needed to hear from you...

... You sound like you should vent to the local newspaper, too. I didn't believe it, but you know people who get their news from limited resources, they're gonna believe anything.

Good luck to you finding what you need.

[Jim Lane]

69. Thanks for speaking up! (n/t)

[GrpCaptMandrake]

70. That's a truth that needs broader telling

Your account is painful enough in its own right, but you know well it's a reality you don't carry alone. You and thousands of others are the ones the right-wing shits on at every available turn.

I'm glad you shared your story. I can't help wondering how many people DON'T know your reality. CNN doesn't. CBS doesn't. NBC doesn't. ABC doesn't. Fox wouldn't tell it even if they DID know.


Get On The H.O.R.N.!
www.HeadOnRadioNetwork.com
America's Liberal Voice

[earth mom]

71. Michael Moore needs to make another movie to shut those lying bastards in the media up.

I hope Moore realizes that he can't rest now because the thugs will be pushing their lies nonstop since they still control the media. :grr:

If it weren't for Unions there would NEVER EVER have been a middle class in this country.

p.s. I'm happy to give this thread rec #50!

[marlakay]

116. did you notice how Larry kept trying to shut him up last night?

every time mike was making yet another great point he would say something like you already said that. Well just maybe Larry we do need to repeat things a bunch of times since CNN tells so many lies over and over.

[earth mom]

131. I don't have cable, but this morning the local nbc news was dishing up the lie that union workers

make $28 an hour and they are costing the auto makers too much money. I was livid about their crap and changed the channel. :grr:

[barbtries]

72. i want you to know

that i do not and have not for one second believed that bullshit. putting this crap on the back of the workers IS maddening! especially given the astronomical amounts the corporate suits make. it is wrong. i can't believe anybody is buying into this bullshit.

that was a well written rant, and welcome to DU

[ProfessorGAC]

73. Oh, You Big Money Workers!

Trying to hide from the IRS, aren't you? LOL! Just kidding.

I even have questions about how the accounting is done to accrue those type of labor costs. Even with the pensions, and health care, or retiree health, i still don't see that number as making sense.

I think there are other allocations on that cost that don't reflect what ends up in the pockets of workers.
The Professor

[Better Believe It]

78. K & R

[Sadie5]

80. This all goes back to Bush

When Clinton was president he favored unions and the economy was going strong. Enter the 'placement' of Bush and things go downhill quick. I think it was in 2003 that the first stock market crash occurred and we lost a lot from our retirement that we had been putting into for years. When Clinton was in office we were allowed to tell the management company which stocks we wanted to invest in, Bush allowed GM to stop that and the management company to choose for us. Now our account is way down again after working for several years to replace what was lost in 03. After retirement when you reach 65 SS kicks in and your retirement is cut by the SS dollars you receive. Along with the Neoconservative business model and the CEO's any business would be failing.

[Oldtimeralso]

121. Demo5 said

"After retirement when you reach 65 SS kicks in and your retirement is cut by the SS dollars you receive."
Thanks to St. Ronnie the SS retirement age is now 67, done in 83 but not effective until 2000 and being phased in.

[VPStoltz]

81. I know the razzing - I'm a teacher.

If I hear one more person tell me how easy my life is because I "get my summers off," well, I'll just set them straight.
The average career length of new teachers in now down to 3 years. These are people who spent tens of thousands on degrees convinced this is what they wanted to do.
Teaching is not a job for the weak of heart or infirm of nerve. And be prepared to work 2-3 extra hours everyday off the clock and every weekend September through June - again off the clock.

[bobd0]

83. K&R This myth needs to be debunked.

This is class warfare, plain and simple. They're using patently false figures to divide and conquer blue collar workers -- AGAIN. I don't understand how the unions and media continue to allow this lie to continue. Unless it's the same old story of the corporate owned media just doing their masters' bidding.

I worked at companies that touted our "Total Compensation Package" that came up with some ridiculous hourly rate that we weren't earning a third of. They'd have year-end meetings to tell us how much the company was paying us in total compensation. Every year when I saw the figure I'd tell them they owed me some money. I'm sure you know their response. So I'd tell them I can't pay my bills with benefits. Can I call my mortgage company and tell them I'm paying this month with my health insurance benefit? Hell no. (Health insurance which, BTW, has become little more than catastrophic illness insurance in recent years -- with higher premiums and reduced benefits.) And that's not to mention the two-tiered system they initiated for new hires. I've worked for less than one-quarter of scale to get my foot in the door at several union and non-union companies and without benefits as well. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

So thanks for venting. I wish those blue-collar suckers who fall for this $80/hr myth would wake up and realize this for what it is; the Republican Party and their corporate buddies waging class warfare against workers by poisoning the waters and pitting us against each other.

[lefthandedskyhook]

84. Anti-Union = Anti-Human

I was a union carpenter until Ronald Reagan came along and flattened my income. Sure unions have had their problems. The solution is to fix the problems, not destroy the unions. What this is really about is corporate influence versus the people (specifically the middle class).

[mwooldri]

144. Not always... really depends on the ethics of the company.

I presently work for a company (no not Walmart) and yes, the word "union" is a dirty word around here. They don't recognize one, and from what I hear if anyone even talks about organizing it is put down rather quickly. But for about the same pay the OP's getting I'm getting far better benefits for doing a far less strenuous job, and the company is well regarded for treating its employees quite well.

However unions have their place and one literally from what I remember saved my dad's job. He used to work for a local authority in the UK, and his department got privatized. The new management wanted a change in the workforce and work practices (since they inherited the old local authority staff, work conditions, everything, including union membership and right to recognition). Since they couldn't make them redundant, they had to "fire" them. So, paying lip service to the disciplinary code, they trumped up charges of insubordination and called various people into the office, to administer a "first written warning", a "second written warning", a "final written warning" and a "termination" - all in the same meeting. These "written warnings" were all prepared beforehand and ready to hand over at various points throughout the meeting. My dad spotted this going on, and when it was his turn for his meeting he asked at the start "is this a disciplinary meeting, because if so, I'd like the union rep to be present." The answer was "Oh, no..." and the envelopes that were on the desk with his name on them were never handed to him. Later on, he actually got promoted... and introduced the changes in work practices (or rather the results) the privatized outfit was looking for (my dad had private-sector experience before working in the public sector).

Mark.

[lefthandedskyhook]

170. Yes, exceptions exist.

Still, the big picture matters most. At the end of the 1970's in the U.S. a union worker could buy a decent house, have medical care, and support a family on one income. The gradual demise of unions has undermined this stability and today typical full time workers not only do not have health coverage or real estate, but they often need assistance just for basic necessities. Collective bargaining remains the only time tested remedy for the kinds of abuses we have suffered under here.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

85. Great OP

K&R -

Here is a great little article on the topic:

The Return of the $70 Per Hour Meme
http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/18/the-return-of-the-70-per-hour-meme
You might expect it from right-leaning commentators like Will Wilkinson. You wouldn't expect it from someone like Mark Perry, who lives in Flint, Michigan. And you certainly wouldn't expect to see it in the New York Times, from the likes of Andrew Ross Sorkin. But all of them are perpetuating the meme that the average GM worker costs more than $70 an hour, once you include health and pension costs.

It's not true.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

Now that GM's healthcare obligations are being moved to a UAW-run trust, even that fictitious number is going to fall sharply. But anybody who uses it as a rhetorical device suggesting that US car companies are run inefficiently is being disingenuous. As of 2007, the UAW represented 180,681 members at Chrysler, Ford and General Motors; it also represented 419,621 retired members and 120,723 surviving spouses. If you take the costs associated with 721,025 individuals and then divide those costs by the hours worked by 180,681 individuals, you're going to end up with a very large hourly rate. But it won't mean anything, unless you're trying to be deceptive.

[whathappened]

86. right on brother

people need to get informed about the bs that is being spread about the workers at the big 3 and there off spring plants , it is a hell hole to work in once u get pass the photo opps they show ya on the boob tube , i worked for buick for 16 yr. and quit , i worked on the machine floor in the engine plant , and let me tell ya it was nothing but a dity place to be , cast iron dust was in the air and that is what u breathed everyday , my lungs are bad at the age of 62 , i would'nt no how they would be if i would have stayed the 30 yr . so these workers need there insurance to pay for all the damage that is done well at these factorys , as far as the pay goes , this pay was given to the workers to accept all the automation that were put in these factorys and watching our brother workers jobs being lost ,

[kentuck]

87. It's the end of the middle class as we have known it...

Detroit and the union workers did more to raise the standard of living in this country than anybody. Now, we are throwing dirt in their faces at they lay in their graves.

[The Backlash Cometh]

88. kicked for amplification.

[moriah]

90. It sounds like Wal-Mart people get better insurance than you did....

... and that's damn sad.

When I was looking at working directly for them (I work for another very large company that supports them), their health coverage was nowhere near as good as mine with my current company -- but the max out of pocket per year was $2k, and they did cover visits to doctors and have prescription coverage. It was still better than the coverage I had while I was at Dillard's -- when I looked at premiums to benefits ratio there, I decided to get coverage through BCBS -- better coverage for less, although if I'd gotten pregnant I would have been screwed as it didn't have maternity coverage.

I'm very happy with my current insurance -- HP takes very, very good care of their people. My premiums are about $250 a month, and if I need an MRI it's only a $75 copay, my highest-cost prescription drug (Advair) is $45, and a PCP copay is $20, specialist is $40.

[Nightflurry]

97. We used to joke

We used to joke that McDonalds employees had better insurance than us.

Now, to be fair and clarify a bit. I went to the emergency room on my 89th day of working there and my insurance kicked in on my 90th day of employment. Tough luck, huh? I was in some pain and pretty sick for about a week and was trying to hold out for day 90 but I got to the point where I couldn't stand up and had to call my dad and have him take me to the hospital.

So most of my costs were incurred before I had coverage, but it really didn't do much for me after, anyway. What a joke our healthcare system is.

[Soylent Brice]

93. fuck yeah!! set those assholes straight!!

i'm tired of hearing this bullshit about the "affluent" auto workers.

dumbasses.

[proud progressive]

94. so it's even worse than i thought?

folks, it's not the workers per se. gm is like any other company that has gotten to big for it's own good. they still design, build, market, and sell the same basic crap they made when they had NO competition. back then we all bought it because we had to.
no, it's not the workers fault. IT NEVER IS! we do what we are taught; try to make as much as we can; go home; and come back the next day. it's that fucking simple!
as cenk would say, 'OF COURSE IT'S THE MANAGEMENT'!
i know of what i speak. my last job was as a line engineer for a maker of automobile transducers. these things MUST work ALWAYS. what we made was so bad that our largest dept did nothing but process all of the returns. the entire process from design to manufacture to market was an embarrassment. who were the only companies that would buy our shit? gm, motorola - for ford, Cummings, chrysler. we tried, but the importers were too smart.
oh! by the way, whose fault was it for the shit that went out our back door? MANAGEMENT!!!
we also had no union.

[Romulox]

95. Can ANYONE tell me what the median compensation of a CITI or AIG worker is???

[Wapsie B]

99. The repugs are waging class wars here.

They're touting these high hourly wages to pit lower income people against unions.

[byrok]

100. My wife has a masters degree

and has been a school teacher for eleven years. She makes 36k/year. I guess my point is, why is it that someone with a GED and no student loan to pay back can make the same, if not more, working a factory job? I'm certainly not knocking factory workers, as I pack foam cartons myself. I'm just saying, our priorities are fucked up. Our lack of giving a shit about education astounds me.

[ieoeja]

101. Are you including all her benefits in that figure?

Because that is where the $70/hr figure comes from. How much does your wife's employer pay in health insurance for her? In Social Security? In Medicare? Into a retirement plan?

Now divide all that by how many hours she spends at work per year.

[Nightflurry]

102. Hm?

What makes you think I don't have educational debt? I was taking some night classes while working there, a lot of people were trying to cram some classes in even with 50-80 hour work weeks because we all know the writing was/is on the wall for the auto industry.

Besides, when you break your body like that it deserves fair compensation. You're selling your body to the factory, to be a machine so to speak. Not everyone is willing to do that.

[byrok]

106. I was not

speaking directly at your situation, I was speaking in general. I too have educational debt, although I work in a factory. I'm just saying that generally, it takes little or no education to work in a factory that pays more than one who needs a professional degree to teach. In addition, I've personally done many labor intensive jobs, yet I would never compare what I've done, to what my wife does 12 hours a day.

Also, in answering to the other reply about benefits, let's stop bullshitting here. The only thing that matters when speaking about such things are acual wages and health benefits. Both are inferior by most standards. In addition, my wife spends on average of 4 hours each night working at home, and, I know many, many teachers, and not one of them has only one employer.

[byrok]

108. Also, please let me add,

in no way am I suggesting that the average autoworker makes that ridiculous figure put out there by the media and other outlets. I know that is a bullshit figure. In addition, I do not begrudge the wages that automakers earn. I guess that I was merely venting my anger at my own families low wages for hard work. If I offended, I certainly apologize.

[JohnnyRingo]

103. K&R... Well said brother

The notion that auto workers earn an additional $50+ an hour in benefits is absurd. With the recent "3 tier wage platform" instituted here, the pay is below that of a good resturant bartender.

The other bugaboo I have with the media is their ignorance on the Jobs Bank. They never mention that it was created as part of an agreement to keep jobs in the US. When GM decided to send more jobs overseas, they had to find something for those displaced workers to do. GM felt it was more profitable to pay union workers to do menial tasks rather than keep the jobs here.

[slackmaster]

104. K&R

:kick:

[Two Americas]

107. k and r

I spent the morning arguing (successfully) with a bunch of right wingers about this, then I go to DU and hear from Democrats the same anti-Union arguments - more stubbornly held and more aggressively argued. WTF?

"The Union is not accountable."

Oh, and management is?

"The Union has been mismanaged."

Oh, I see. Unlike the auto companies themselves?

"The Union is just out to get all they can."

And management and the stockholders are out for....?

"Well yeah but the owners and stock holders are actually producing something and should be rewarded."

The stockholders are producing something and should be rewarded, but the workers are not and should not?

"The Union workers have all these perks and benefits that are crippling the companies."

Right. Private jets, golden parachutes, insider stock deals...

"But the auto companies cannot be competitive because wages are $70 and hour because of the UAW, and Toyota is paying less."

The Japanese and German auto companies pay their workers more. It is health care that is one big cost in that bogus $70 an hour figure, and that has nothing to do with the Union nor with the auto companies. Health care costs are a problem everywhere in the country, and that is certainly not the fault of workers.

And so on.

But my questions - why is it so easy to bring working class right wingers around to a pro-Union point of view (I don't understand how anyone can lose this argument) and so difficult to bring liberal activists and Democratic party sycophants around? As easy as it is to persuade people to a pro-Union point of view, how can there be so much anti-Union sentiment out there? Is no one else doing what I am doing? Why not? I can overcome 10 years of Limbaugh propaganda in 30 minutes, and do it wholesale. What is the problem? WTF? What ARE the liberals and Dem activists doing and saying, if they cannot or will not get involved in the battle?

[yardwork]

109. Thank you for posting this. I'm sickened by the attacks on working people here.

The richest country on earth can afford to give workers decent salaries, benefits, working conditions, and retirement. You got none of those things, and you're still being scapegoated.

People should be ashamed of themselves for attacking workers. Let's look at the hundreds of millions in salaries and bonuses going to CEOs, and their incredible retirement packages they get after they drive their companies into the ground.

[leftchick]

110. thank you

You should send this to Jack Cafferty.

[davidpdx]

114. That really sucks about having no medical insurance

In this day and age it is insane for an employer not to offer health insurance.

Thanks for letting us know what life is really like as an auto worker.

[orleans]

115. too late to recommend. thanks for the post. n/t

[orleans]

117. also... from randi's website:

"Michael Moore who made the penultimate movie about GM “Roger and Me” about 20 years ago, has known where this was heading for decades and that The Big Three will never change. He also knows it’s not the fault of Unions who have made massive concessions to the freaks at the top over and over and will do it yet again to save their industry and their jobs. Moore suggests we buy the companies outright and use them to build up our infrastructure, our military and let them know “We own your ass” Think 1940.
http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/

[pnwmom]

119. If we had nationalized health care not paid for by employers,

our per employee costs would magically drop. One more reason our hourly costs appear so much higher than in other countries -- we include health benefits that don't have to be offered in single payer countries.

[mykpart]

120. When they say "salary and benefits"

they include things like workers compensation (required by law). Probably also include the cost of safety equipment (like goggles) that is also required by law. Wonder how much an hour it costs to operate a CEO's private jet. Wonder how much an hour that pilot gets to sit around and wait for the CEO?

[Oldtimeralso]

122. Another Fact

The cost of labor also includes the cost of management and their benefits also so the company jets yes jets plural, pilots, the mahogany office furniture, the three martini lunches, and on and on and on...
These costs need to be reduced including the management wages, maybe the need a two tier management wage and benefit plan. The new hire management offices would be in unused FEMA trailers, they would not have heat or air conditioning, and have to use porta potties as they would not have any utility connections, maybe a company moped for transportation, out of town trip they could stay at YMCA's or if they are not available motel 6's with four to a room, and of course their salary would be less than half of their counterparts hired before them and when the counterparts retired these cost cutting measures would continue, just as the assembly line workers wage and benefit concessions do.

[Gman]

124. The $80 an hour rate is a gross distortion

it's called the "loaded labor rate" which includes wages, benefits and retirement. I think $80 an hour is cheap. AT&T's management loaded labor rate is $125, or at least that's what we used for budgets.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

125. My husband is retired from GM after 37 years

I would sure like to know where those $80/hour paychecks he was supposedly getting were, we never saw them. I am not complaining, he earned us a good living and it was not putting 5 bolts on an hour. He was tool and die and spent day after day many times lying inside a die stoning it to get it ready to be used. If you think that is not hard, back breaking work than you should try it. He had additional training to run the computers, and built the dies and mock up models. He is hard of hearing from working around all the noise and he always wore the earplugs. Also he was injured several times over the years, that metal is sharp, he almost cut off a finger once. And so many of the people who we know who worked there have one or more fingers missing. He worked hard to provide a good life and retirement and now we have to worry that our retirement and health care is going to be taken away because of incompetence from the higher ups and the government officials who want a "plan" for the car makers "bailout", where was the plan the banks had to submit for the AIG and Bank bailouts? What a rotten shame that our countrymen will actually say that it should be taken away from the big 3 auto workers and be so jealous that some have worked to provide a good living for their families. I just wish that people realized what unions have done for this county. I tell my husband what is bad is that in 40 or 50 years our great grandkids will probably be fighting in this country for unionization again in an effort to rebuild the middle class and get back the gains that were achieved over the years and lost this last decade.

[SmileyRose]

148. My disabled Uncle spent 32 years Assembly at Ford Atlanta.

He's been out of the plant for 6 years. The job disabled him but he just kep working hurt. Now the injuries have caught up in a big way. Like your husband, always wore earplugs and still ended up legally deaf (can hear some but not much). Some days he's in a wheelchair, others on a cane. Most days he needs help to brush his teeth. His hands hurt so bad some days he can't hold a glass of water or wrap his fingers around a spoon.

It was the job.

When I see supposed progressives bitching because at the max Uncle made $22 a hour I really wonder how many times their mama's must have dropped them on their heads.

Yours is a great post and I thank you.

[TWiley]

126. Hedge fund managers earn $300,000/ hour WITHOUT including benifits

A top executive may earn a 1 Million dollar salary which is $500 per hour. This does not include all his/her benifits either, just their salary. Where I work, the top executives have a much better benifit package than the average shop employees right across the board. Some Hedge-Fund managers made over 600 Billion last year in salary compensation alone. That is $300,000 per hour, and we bailed their sorry-asses out without flinching.

[ksimons]

128. wonder what will happen in DC with the Big 3 this week

sounds like there aren't the votes

[Nightflurry]

129. I think it's a regional thing.

If the bulk of the factories were in California then you can bet Pelosi would be singing a different tune. People on the coasts don't really seem to give a damn about the Midwest from what I've been observing.

I lived in Washington for awhile. I've had to explain this to people I know from there like this: Imagine if Microsoft, Boeing, and Google all went under. These people not from the midwest think it won't affect them. They can't be more wrong. They think they cheer only the death of the Midwest, but they cheer for a depression that could make the 30's look like a picnic.

We're all pretty damn scared where I live. Official unemployment in my county is around 12%. Real has got to be way more than that, and it's only getting worse.

I really sound pretty doom and gloom, I don't like being mopey like this. I've always tried to be a glass half full guy but I just can't see anything in the glass at all around here. Doesn't help that half the people in the country and cheering it on gleefully.

We voted for Obama here in Michigan for hope of the state surviving and hanging onto the few jobs we have left. He's got one hell of a problem to unwind, and he's got one chance. I'm cautiously optimistic.

[Kermitt Gribble]

132. Kick!

[EC]

137. I'm so tired of hearing that the costs of American Union workers

make the cars non-competitive when the foriegn cars cost more than the American Union Made cars...how does the cost of the union wages make them non-competitive? American cars don't sell because they are gas guzzlers period...dinosours...

[childslibrarian]

141. Thank you for posting.

I seriously did not know anything of what you are saying. It is not reflected in the news.

[mentalsolstice]

143. Yep, our nephew makes a buttload of money at a Honda plant

However, it's not because his hourly wage is so high, but because he does a lot of overtime. Additionally, he has to change shifts every 2-3 weeks, which precludes him from furthering his education and participating in family events. It's not an easy life, but he's trying to put back $$$ for his 4 y.o. daughter's education.

edited to clarify: although there are no impending layoffs at his plant, one never knows...

[Omaha Steve]

149. Labour Start just flashed your story around the WORLD!

http://www.labourstart.org/usa/

Congratulations.

[november3rd]

152. TV Show

Please email me and let me know if I can contact you about speaking on my tv show--"Media Monitors" about this topic. I am currently trying to find union members to complain about specific examples of commercial media coverage and how they contrast with reality.

[BlooInBloo]

154. (shrug) Crabs pulling other crabs back into the crab trap. It's the American way.

[neuvocat]

159. Thanks for sharing.

[profitfighter1]

160. GOP is a FAIL

Profit means that one who profits at another's loss

[illuminaughty]

162. Someone posted below a very correct definition of

how that bullshit number came to pass. Keith O. did a great piece on it. They are always looking for scapegoats and since they are trying to destroy Labor anyway, it's very convenient to use the auto workers.

I have great respect for anyone that can work on ANY kind of assembly line. My father was with TWA and I grew up in a middle class household but those days are gone. And he never even made the kind of money they're talking about.

As I've posted before here, a caller phoned into Mike Malloy's show when the Big 3 came to D.C. the first time and started blaming the workers and citing that stupid wage amount. Malloy tore him apart.
And also proceeded to list all the reasons why this crisis could NEVER be the fault of the workers. But even Malloy got frustrated because he said he can't educate all the ignorant people out there.
Especially when right wing radio has such a monopoly on the airwaves. It's a hard beast to fight.

[bluecollarcharlie]

163. I Just got home....

..after working my shift at a Chrysler engine plant. And even though i told myself i would not come here to futilely argue with the closet republicans on this site, i couldn't stay away because it is so important. I know it is too late to K&R this, but thank you for putting this up. People have become so gullible over the last 30 years that they will vote against their interests and throw away old allies. Even and especially these "new democrats" who are more than uncomfortable with blue collar guys (like me) making good money that doesn't require a degree and 4 to 8 years of sitting through boring lectures. And then you have the "old socialists" who are just anti-everybody and need big this that and the other to get the blood going. Even if it means knocking out the little people who make up the big.
Thanks, again for posting this.
Yours in Solidarity. And i hope and pray to God will we survive this so you can get your job back.

[amborin]

167. too late to recommend this, but you and all union workers have my support