Well, I'm officially at war with my property manager. I'd like your opinion on my first salvo.

[shadowknows69]

Long story short our rent was changed suddenly from heat and water included to all utilities extra. Our PM did this little move without any legal notification of it and I just wanted your opinion on this letter.

XXXXXX,

Upon consultation with Legal Aid of Central New York’s Watertown office, xxxxx and I have come to the conclusion that you have not followed proper legal procedure in informing us of the change in our rental status.

When the house changed hands we had an existing lease/agreement that when we asked you about the status of that lease you informed us that a new one wasn’t necessary and that all the statutes of the old lease would stand. Regardless, in the same conversation, I requested that you produce us a new lease to sign or at least an agreement about what services were included in our rent, something you never did. At the time, as you know, we paid $450 a month with all heating and water costs included and us being responsible for electric and stove gas only. Also in our original lease was snow removal but you chose to ignore that insisting it “wasn’t in the budget”. In good faith we didn’t press this particular point in which the law was clearly on our side and we ended up hiring outside help to plow. Later you raised our rent to $540 with due process of thirty days with no mention of utility cost change.

This current transgression is something that we will not let stand however. On the advice of the staff lawyer I spoke to at Legal Aid, who by the way mentioned that he has “dealt” with you before, Nancy and I will not accept the responsibility for our heating or water costs until thirty days from the point you inform us in writing by certified mail of the change from rent with heat and water included to rent with all utilities extra. I am also informing the other tenants of their rights on this matter in case they don’t know.

We understand that after a year our rental status changed to a month to month lease situation, although I question the legality of you not providing us a lease when we requested it and I will be researching that as well. Regardless, even month to month renters are entitled to due legal process and proper notification of rental changes and this is the statute we feel you have violated and are willing to pursue in a court of law if necessary.

Therefore, we will only be paying you rent minus our estimated heating costs until you rectify your lapse in procedure or change us back to the original terms of our rent. We will provide you documents to show the difference in gas usage from the times before you did the end around on us and without our consent applied heating costs to our National Grid account.

Before gas heat was added we averaged about $20 a month in gas charges as you can see with the attached spreadsheet. Our Gas cost went from 20.21 for 1 month in September to 249.81 for the months of October and November. Allowing for a rounded number of $40 we would have normally paid for our gas for the two months since you added heating gas to our bill, the difference works out to 209.41 that we shouldn’t be responsible for. Therefore the enclosed check for December’s rent is the difference of 330.19. We will continue to apply this formula for paying our rent until the situation is rectified and we are properly informed of the rent change.

There have been numerous times since you took over this property that you have shirked your responsibilities in timely maintenance of things here and informing us of several visits from people showing the house and to do work here, both situations are clear violations of New York State renter’s rights. We haven’t pursued any of these incidents of incompetence so far, but this is beyond the pale and rest assured we will be holding you and Century 21 to higher standards from this point on with the aid of the New York Attorney General’s office at our back if necessary.

Thank you for your timely attention to this matter,

[EFerrari]

1. I'd keep it to 4 paragraphs because if you ever have to defend it in court

it just cuts down the stuff they can twist back on you.

Good luck, my friend.

[pacalo]

11. I totally agree.

[Warpy]

2. I'm afraid that without a lease you don't have much on your side

I'd start looking for a new place to live.

[shadowknows69]

3. We are doing that but the lawyer at legal aid assured me she was negligent in this

And told me if she started eviction proceedings on this basis that I should contact him again. This person has a huge reputation for being an incompetent slum lord around here.

[SoCalDem]

4. Did you call the health department?

They might be an ally.

[shadowknows69]

6. I'm going to get some code inspectors in here

There is a very real possibility that we are also providing heat to one of the tenants in this house who has his utilities included still. He's getting heat somehow and the owner of the house doesn't have an energy account here anymore so we suspect they ran a couple lines to his place off our furnace too.

[Captain Hilts]

13. Well, first off, suddenly doing this in Watertown in the WINTER...

you must have some legal protections.

I drove through there Nov. 1st. Already snow on the ground nearly all the way to Utica.

[WolverineDG]

9. even an unwritten month to month lease is a "lease"

and (at least under Texas law & I'd think it would work the same in NY), he is entitled to notice based on how often his rent is due (if month to month, then 30 days).

dg

[remedy1]

16. Wrong.

There is no such thing as an "unwritten" lease. A lease must be in writing, signed by both parties, and have a defined term. A month to month agreement is an at will agreement (either verbal or written, preferably written) subject to change with sufficient (usually 30 days) written notice. A rental agreement always favors the owner, whereas a lease is much more difficult to modify without agreement of both parties. Anyone who rents should have a valid lease.

[WolverineDG]

17. Wrong

Read the Texas property code if you don't believe me.

dg

[remedy1]

21. The "texas property code"?

What is that? Leases are governed by contract law and UCC. Trust me on this, I have owned many rental properties. There is no such thing as an unwritten lease.

[WolverineDG]

22. If you don't know what the Texas Property Code is

then you don't own property in Texas. Trust me on this, I live in Texas.

dg

[rvablue]

5. Don't have any expertise to share....but where are you renting in NY for $540 with

utilities included...that's a nice deal.

Not trying to say you shouldn't complain. It's your legal obligation to follow the terms of the lease or get tossed so the same should apply to greedy landlords.

[shadowknows69]

7. Upstate and that's why she's pulling this shit.

There is a serious lack of housing right now where I am. She thinks she could get 700+ for this dump and is probably right because people are desperate here thanks to an influx of new military families that our city planned very poorly for and every landlord is gouging the shit out of rent-wise. My wife and I can't afford more than 540 a month, which really worked out to about 650 a month with electric that we've always paid for.

[Justyce]

8. You don't have a lease & owners are allowed to set their own

prices, so I think the best you can do is buy time while you look for another place.

[WolverineDG]

10. He does have a lease

it's just not a written one.

dg

[dysfunctional press]

12. but if it's a month-to-month lease, the terms can be changed at the end of the month.

or the lease can be rescinded as well.

[WolverineDG]

18. and that's a downside

but still doesn't change the fact that it's a lease.

dg

[remedy1]

15. There is no such thing.

A lease must be in writing and signed by the parties to be valid. An unwritten lease does not exist. A month to month rental agreement is generally subject to modification with 30 days written notice to the tenant. The tenant can accept the modification(s) or vacate.

[WolverineDG]

20. Yes there is

a written lease, in which the written contract governs.

an unwritten lease, which is controlled by the property code (at least in Texas)

dg

[michreject]

27. He ain't in Texas

In Michigan, if it's not a written lease, it's not a lease.

[lakeguy]

23. depends on which state you are in

unless you own rental property in every state, you don't know what you are talking about.

[shadowknows69]

25. exactly and the basis for our complaint is

That we weren't even given the chance to decide to vacate. It was just done to us and now we're stuck with the massive heating bills until we get out of here.

[dysfunctional press]

28. if he has your security deposit money, expect to subtract the money you subtracted from your rent.

at the very least...

[VOX]

14. However justified, you might consider removing the confrontational and challenging passages.

I'm not even sure if, in the long run, it'll make you feel any better or set things right.

In your letter, you should make your points, but use your "cool" as a tactic. Along the lines of, "This is this, and it should be that, and here's why, etc."

As much as you might have every reason to be totally enraged, handle all transactions with your property manager as purely business. Red-flag challenges like "This...is something that we will not let stand," or "you have shirked your responsibilities" will not do you a bit of good. Your property manager will just dig in deeper and dirtier, until it becomes a full-blown feud, with no chance of any meaningful communication or resolution.

Trust me on this, I've been in your spot more than a few times.

Hang in there --

[mdavies013]

19. Did the attorney advise paying less that the amount billed?

In North Carolina you cannot for any reason withhold rent...you have to take legal action first. You have to pay to stay. If not you can be evicted.

I agree that you should remove any combative language. State the facts and only the facts.

Remove the item about not providing a year lease as there is no requirment for the landlord to provide you with a year lease. Your orignal agreement was most likely for a year that switches to month-to-month. It can be canceled or changed with XX days notice...check your lease.

[anigbrowl]

24. Too long, too personal.

If you're going to be your own lawyer (so to speak) you don't negotiate as if you were trying to persuade a jury. Short and specific is best. Your basic point is that you asked for a new lease, didn't get it, and see provision in your existing lease for ad-hoc changes in your utility costs. Edit it down to half the length, lose the threats, and keep your tone (and powder) dry. The less you say, the fewer ways there are for their lawyer to twist your meaning if it should end up in court.

[shadowknows69]

26. The edited version. Input please.

Upon consultation with Legal Aid of Central New York’s Watertown office, Nancy and I have come to the conclusion that you have not followed proper legal procedure in informing us of the change in our rental status.

When the house changed hands we had an existing lease/agreement that when we asked you about the status of that lease you informed us that a new one wasn’t necessary and that all the statutes of the old lease would stand. In the same conversation, I requested that you produce us a new lease to sign or at least an agreement about what services were included in our rent, something you never did. At the time, as you know, we paid $450 a month with all heating and water costs included and us being responsible for electric and stove gas only. Also in our original lease was snow removal but you chose to ignore that insisting it “wasn’t in the budget”. In good faith we didn’t press this particular point in which the law was clearly on our side and we ended up hiring outside help to plow. Later you raised our rent to $540 with due process of thirty days with no mention of utility cost change.

On the advice of the staff lawyer I spoke to at Legal Aid, Nancy and I will not accept the responsibility for our heating or water costs until thirty days from the point you inform us in writing by certified mail of the change from rent with heat and water included to rent with all utilities extra.

We understand that after a year our rental status changed to a month to month lease situation. Regardless, even month to month renters are entitled to due legal process and proper notification of rental changes and this is the statute we feel you have violated.

Therefore, we will only be paying you rent minus our estimated heating costs until you rectify your lapse in procedure or change us back to the original terms of our rent. We will provide you documents to show the difference in gas usage from the times before you applied heating costs to our National Grid account without our consent.

Before gas heat was added we averaged about $20 a month in gas charges as you can see with the attached spreadsheet. Our Gas cost went from 20.21 for 1 month in September to 249.81 for the months of October and November. Allowing for a rounded number of $40 we would have normally paid for our gas for the two months since you added heating gas to our bill, the difference works out to 209.41 that we shouldn’t be responsible for. Therefore the enclosed check for December’s rent is the difference of 330.19. We will continue to apply this formula for paying our rent until the situation is rectified and we are properly informed of the rent change.

Thank you for your timely attention to this matter,

[EFerrari]

29. I'd use paragraphs 1, 3, 4,5 only.

2 and 6 have loopholes that can be debated, whether you're right or not. If you need to, include a separate accounting in numbers but keep it very brief. EX:

New Rent

- estimated cost of utilities

----------------------------------
Amount tendered