Why Should GM, Ford and John Snow's Chrysler Receive Federal Funding?

[David Zephyr]

They haven't made vehicles that consumers wanted to buy in eons.

They haven't made environmental vehicles that the planet needed. They dug in their heels.

They do not have any real credible high-mileage, low emission vehicles scheduled for years. They lie about it. But the Chevy Volt is a siren song of fraud. It's little more than some water color renderings and a guarded prototype or two. It will not be realistically on the market for years and they know it.

I don't like bailing out the banks, the brokerage firms either.

And I don't like bailing out this rotten to the core industry.

The government should make direct mortgage loans to the American people cutting out the waste of the middle-men and loan sharks.

3% for 30 years if you have great credit. Direct from Uncle Sam.
4% for 30 years if you have good credit. Direct from Uncle Sam.
5% for 30 years if you have bad credit and are a risk. Direct from Uncle Sam.

The foreclosure paradigm would turn around quickly. Housing prices would stabilize.

Americans could stay in their homes.

Let GM, Ford and John Snow's Chrysler go into bankruptcy where there will be transparency across the board.

Believe me, Toyota, the Chinese and a lot of investors will pick off the assets and will make something of many of those brands again. The overlap, the redundancy, the lack of product rationalization will be history.

These companies may have once been worth saving or may have once been salvageable. Not anymore.

At most, one of those three will survive.

Let them have the $28 Billion. But it won't help one thing except to push the can down the road a few more months.

Those factories should be turned into Manhattan Projects to re-employ those workers to pump out wind and solar which is what the nation really needs more than to screw around trying to retool a bunch of unpopular branded vehicles that won't be ready for 5-10 years and that will be too late.

Get out of Iraq and put our tax dollars toward green jobs and empower the rust belt again with something America needs.

It's time to let them fold.

It's over.

[MichiganVote]

1. The mortagage crisis is the can getting kicked down the road and its now the least of our prob.

[Better Believe It]

2. A Total Bull Shit Anti-Worker and Anti-Union Post

It shows that Republicans don't have a total lock on idiots.

Without organized labor Obama would not be president-elect.

And the Republicans would control both houses of Congress.

So take your right-wing anti-labor crap and post it somewhere else.

[David Zephyr]

8. Wrong.

Making products that no one will every buy is hardly productive use of labor.

As I said, let these three corporations fold. And transition with as many billions as it takes to convert those very facilities into the green environmental economy that we needs.

Those workers can make solar voltaic cells, wind turbines and more just as easily as they can behemoths that no one will ever buy.

Redirect the labor force toward something useful.

I am a socialist.

[gizmo1979]

20. What do you do for a living?

Do we make more than you and you think that's wrong?

[David Zephyr]

24. No. Your wish to ascribe jealousy as a motivation for my comments reflects poorly on you.

I'm on your side.

I would like to see the feds underwrite every auto worker and the subordinate industries' workers pay for two years until we can retool those fabulous industries and factories into the green technologies like wind and solar and high speed rail.

That's a little old-fashioned 'central planning' but if the Rust Belt doesn't do it, the South will.

We can piss 1 Trillion away in Iraq for pure futility, we can certainly afford to take care of our workers and put them into a track that will have dividends for generations in good jobs, cleaning up the environment, reducing our dependence on foreign oil dictators and keeping all those energy dollars right here in the U.S.A.

I am not jealous of your pay. That's just silly and beneath you.

This is a great time of jeopardy. The Feds must step in and protect the workers, but it is idiotic to continue building cars that no one is going to buy anyway. We are paying Halliburton to rebuild bridges in Iraq that we haven't even blown up yet; we can certainly afford to continue paying our auto workers as we transition away from the insanity.

There is not room for the three automotive corporations in the U.S. At least not these three.

We can't go back to the past.

[notadmblnd]

26. They made those behemoths because that's what people wanted

and from the numbers of them on the road, it doesn't exactly look like no one bought them. You can thank your pretzledent and congress for four dollar a gallon gasoline. That is why they are now sitting on the lots.

[Deja Q]

3. An interesting hypothesis, and if it extends life by a few months they may reverse course...

Or maybe the naysayers are right.

But given all the emotions of recent, I'll be the waiter and summarily order complimentary prune juice for everybody.

[LuckyTheDog]

4. No, sorry, but we need an industrial base

And we don't need an economic depression.

You know nothing about the Big Three if you think they have not made fuel-efficient cars. Yes, they also make SUVs. So does Honda. So does Toyota.

And, yes, they DO have real credible high-mileage, low emission vehicles in the works.

I could go on and on. Your post reveals a deep ignorance of the auto industry, the Big Three, and the importance of GM, Ford and Chrysler to the U.S. economy.

[Deja Q]

6. Well, at least I can revoke one glass of prune juice...

:yourock:

[David Zephyr]

9. Not true.

"And, yes, they DO have real credible high-mileage, low emission vehicles in the works." Not true.

They have bullshit.

[LuckyTheDog]

12. Please become informed

They have a lot of cars NOW that get good gas mileage. I have a Chevy with a V6 that gets 30 MPG on the highway. The new Malibu does better than that. The Ford Focus does even better than that. What thehave in the pipeline is much better and "greener" than what they have now.

Sure, the Big 3 were slow to adopt hybrids. Why? Because, unlike Toyota, they could not afford to lose money on a model the way Toyota lost money on the Prius (which I doubt has yet to create an economic payback for the company or any of its owners). Toyota would not have been able to put out the Prius without its huge profits from things like Land Cruisers.

The myth is that the Big 3 did not "make the small cars people wanted." The reality is that Americans have not wanted small cars. And that is why the Japanese, Koreans and Europeans all sell SUVs here.

And that beings up another issue: Why it is OK for the foreign car makers to pump out huge SUVs, but unforgivable for the Big 3 to do that?

[Deja Q]

14. Ford definitely does.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

:beer:

[trof]

5. Because you don't want all those employees/retirees on unemployment/welfare,

Medicaid, food stamps, and no longer consuming any goods but the bare necessities.
Figure what all that will cost the government/us.

Plus, those folks didn't make the decisions about what to build and how to market it.
They just worked on the line or were the line and middle managers who were the overseers.
If you want to punish those few at the top who made those decisiions, have at it.
By all means.

[David Zephyr]

10. You won't save the workers by bailing out these useless corporations.

If you read what I wrote, I said give them the $28 Billion, but it only pushes the can down the road.

We need to retool those factories to make what America needs.

If the Rust Belt doesn't do it, the South will.

Are you suggesting that Detroit continue to pile up square miles of millions of cars that no one will buy? That doesn't help those workers.

It's time to retool.

[LuckyTheDog]

13. GM has SOME plants working overtime now

Those plants are making what Americans want most from GM: SUVs such as the Chevrolet Tahoe.

Like it or not, Americans love big vehicles.

[trof]

17. No sir, I'm not at all suggesting business as usual.

I agree with what you say about the rust belt and the south and retooling.
I live in Alabama where we have 3 auto plants.
Mercedes, Hyundai, and Honda.
Plus all the peripheral suppliers.
Of course we gave them the world and the moon.
I don't think they'll pay any taxes until sometime in the next century.

BTW, our 2 U.S. senators, Sessions and Shelby, have been loud and long about dumping the Big 3.
Ain't no Deetroit plants down here.
:-(

[David Zephyr]

23. Thanks. A sensible liberal.

The best thing for the Rust Belt is to convert to the new green technologies.

And as I said, if the Rust Belt doesn't, the South will. That's just the way it is.

I'd like to see a little old-fashioned "Central Planning" to direct these marvelous old industries in the Rust Belt on a fast track to Green Technologies and even building high speed rail, too.

But building more cars that no one will buy is simply idiotic.

Thanks for weighing in.

[notadmblnd]

27. You're outr of your mind. GM has plants in Tennessee (Saturn)

and Shreveport La has a huge truck assembly. Why is it ok for the government to subsidize the foreign makers in the south, but not ok to loan The US makers in the north?

[trof]

31. By 'down here' I meant Alabama. And I'm not yet out of my mind.

Talk about hyperbole.
:eyes:

[mdmc]

7. i disagree

we should save them

[David Zephyr]

11. Save the workers, save the infrastructure and retool. Save these useless corps? No.

.

[LuckyTheDog]

15. Let me get this straight

We should nationalize the Big 3 and re-tool their plans to make things for which there is currently no mass market (windmills) and shut down the capacity to build things that people actually want to buy (Chevy Tahoes)?

How would that help workers in the long run?

[catnhatnh]

19. Well...if the OP had specified locking in union jobs...

and benefits and conditions, I could easily go with them building wind generation systems. There's no mass market??? Of course not-current manufacturers have not yet hit economies of scale. But suppose one of the Big 3 built the "volkswagen" of wind generators...simple, efficient, and inexpensive? Suppose for a start that were offered to states and municipalities below cost and tied to a public works program to hire the unemployed to install and maintain? The trick to reducing fossil fuel use is a large reserve of solar and wind and tidal and hydro over capacity combined with a massively oversized transmission grid. For once and i'll wind would indeed blow the grid (all of us) good...as would easily predictable high tides, rain runoff, droughts, and other cyclical natural phenomenon.

Your basic "normal" power producing facilities would remain the same, but energy overproduction would be easily predictable and fossil generation curtailed. Actually a series of "speculation factories" could be built regionally to soak up excess production of power ONLY during predicted high production periods...think aluminum smelting for one process that is fairly simple but energy intensive...

Anyhow, my real point is that the union should be the sole non-negotiable point...with the union I could happily back any bailout and without it I will back none. The rest is just a liberal's daydream of increasing energy independence and revitalizing our jobs market. Otherwise, if we are all to be serfs without a hope of working upward in caste, why should we care?

[David Zephyr]

25. I'm pretty much saying the same thing.

Read some of my other posts. I think we owe it to these workers to continue to pay them...even if it means not to work for a corporation that has collapsed until we can retool most (there's probably room for one of the auto giants to survive) of those wonderful industries into not just wind and solar massive production, but also for high speed rail. The payoff will be for generations to come in keeping our energy dollars here in America, a cleaner environment and a real PWA program like FDR began.

If we can piss away $1 Trillion in Iraq on a mistake, we can certainly invest in our autoworkers and those in supportive industries to it.

It's old fashioned central planning, but we are in a national emergency and sometimes it takes a big nudge in the correct direction to get us on the right track.

But regardless, there's no way that all three of these corporations will survive.

And if the Rust Belt doesn't go for it, the South will.

[LuckyTheDog]

29. That's La-La land talk.

I will not buy a windmill any time soon. In a few years, I will want to buy a new car. I sure hope it is an American car.

[RufusEarl]

16. It's pretty simple to me..

The country needs those million plus jobs & the manufacturing that goes with them..

Peace!

[gizmo1979]

18. Did you know Gm sold the most cars

last month,more than Toyota,by 20000 cars,so I don't know where people come up with they make cars nobody wants.
Those are good paying jobs you won't make anywhere near that money in any entry level job.
I' be interested to know what you do for a living?I for one like my job and don't care for people writing me off as if I'm just a number.We ARE PEOPLE JUST LIKE YOU!So give us a chance and you'll be alot happier.I know I will be.

[notadmblnd]

21. let me provide you with a couple of facts

The goal of the terrorist on 911 was to ruin the US economy. At that time the US auto makers stepped up to the plate, kept people in their jobs and held up the economy. Now I'm going to provide you with another fact.

According to the national Automotive Dealer Association 16.9 million cars were sold in the US in 2003. In addition to that, 35,000,000 used cars were sold in 2003 for a combined total of 51.9 million units. In 2004 17.3 million new cars were sold. Both were record years.
The numbers for new cars declined in 2007 to 13.8 million sold in this country. So you are wrong about people not buying American made cars.

Now that the US auto makers are asking for a loan, let me stress that again, they are asking for a loan, not a hand out we have people like you whining.. "let them fail." If you take the loss of two million jobs in this country lightly and think that you and yours won't be affected by it, you need to think again.

You need to get off your biased high horse and educate yourself. I don't know if you are jealous because you don't feel the American auto worker deserves to make a living wage because you don't or if you feel that you've had to work harder for less. Those people work hard. They come home dirty, smelly and sometimes even injured. My husband almost dropped dead while at work for GM and if it weren't for his own common sense in getting to the hospital, His family (me and his son) wouldn't have had the time we did with him. He did pass a few years later because there was no new heart for him.

What's going on in congress is a dog and pony show and GM, Ford and Chrysler will get the needed money. If not from the US Treasury, then from some other country. Don't worry that you might have to have an extra dollar taken out of your paycheck in taxes to help car dealers out. keep your M-Fing dollar, I hope you choke on it.

[stillcool]

30. I don't think the auto industry...

is nearly as benevolent to it's workers, or this country. I wonder what involvement they have with the defense industry. I like the idea of bailing out the industry, but what will change if anything? I would say that Government having a stake would be a great idea, except not our government.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/gm-gdls-to-support-us-remote-weapon-stations-in-theater-03228/

http://www.global-defence.com/2003/gm_defense.htm

[blue_onyx]

22. Actually up until 2005

the US auto companies where making exactly what we wanted...big, gas-guzzling SUVs.

The US auto companies are a business which meaning their main purpose is to make money...why should they be worried about making the vehicles that the planet needs?

The impact of letting the US auto companies go under would be far greater than people think. It will devastate my state and many of the states around MI. It would also send the entire country into a worse recession.

The companies have been restructuring...just come ask the hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their jobs. GM has put forth a plan in which a lot of the overlap will be cut. Pontiac will only have a couple of vehicles, Saturn will likely be discontinued, and Hummer and Saab will likely be sold. With the loans to get them through the credit crunch, GM along with Ford and Chrysler will be able to turn themselves around.

I have said before on DU that we need a Manhattan Project for green vehicles. I believe this project should be done with the Big 3. The country should invest tons of money to help get vehicles with zero emissions to the market quickly. It would be good for the US automakers and the country.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Because loaning an industry $34billion that's worth $3billion makes sense..

Of course, we can expect them to pay us back..sometime..maybe..if we give them more money..and they sell their company jets and drive hybrids.

And, you believe in the P.T. Barnum school of finance and corporate welfare.