Consumers (as a group) are idiots. They are as bad as children.

[Joe Fields]

If you have a fuel efficient vehicle, then I am not talking about you.

If you have a truck, but need it for work, then I am not talking about you.

If you have a large family, and need an SUV, or a mini van, then you are also excused.



BUT, I just finished listening to an interview of one of the G.M. officials that spoke on Capitol Hill today, and what he said really amazed me. Several months ago, he said, when gas averaged four dollars per gallon, GM couldn't keep fuel efficient cars on car lots. Now that gasoline is around a buck and a half, the fuel efficient cars are sitting, and the sales of trucks and suv's dramatically increased, (relative to the fact that last month's sales were down over 40 percent.)

I thought children's attention spans were short. But come on, people. Will we ever get over the arrogance of being Americans who feel we have the god given rights to be selfish, continue to drive Cadillacs with baby seal skin upholstry, smoke 30 dollar Macanudo's while driving down the highway at 90 miles an hour with the top down, flipping the rest of the world the bird?

This is EXACTLY why I'm completely in favor of the government dictating to Detroit what type of cars they will make. The big three conned America into buying their high priced low mileage vehicles. We can't take the chance on trusting them again to do the right thing. Hell, we can't even trust ourselves to make good choices.

[driver8]

1. What short memories the American people have...

I actually saw a Prius in our neighborhood with a "For Sale" sign on it.

You NEVER saw that three months ago.

[BreweryYardRat]

31. I saw a Smart Car with a "For Sale" sign back during the summer, when gas was passing $4/gal.

I figure there's got to be a motivation for that other than "short memory."

[Juche]

44. Give it 5 years

In 5 years we will probably be out of this economic crisis and China, Brazil & India will be back using more gasoline than before. Gas will be back up to $4 a gallon or more by 2013.

A person could probably make good money off the fact that we only have 5 minute attention spans and can't figure out that gas prices are going to go right back up once this economic collapse is over. Too bad I don't have any good ideas. Wish I did.

[Mist]

2. Is there a source other than a GM official that would back up what he

says? Sounds like he's just hyping the product. I don't think most consumers will so quickly forget the outrageous gas prices we all suffered through so recently. GM would no doubt like very badly to blame the consumer for their crappy record.

[Joe Fields]

4. don't know. heard him talking on the radio this afternoon.

But he did go on to say that, while everyone is talking about the big three being in so much trouble, no one has stopped to notice that Honda's sales are down 42 percent and Toyota's sales are down 35 percent. It isn't just the big three who are in trouble.

[bighart]

32. heard an interview with a Toyota dealer on NPR this afternoon.

Waiting lists for hybrids are gone and sales of hybrids have dropped by around 50% since gas prices fell.

[Selatius]

3. There is no real cultural structure that encourages long-term thinking.

Regardless of whether this GM official speaks the truth or not, in some other countries, thinking long-term is actively encouraged as a daily facet of life. Also, few countries encourages as much individual consumerism as the US does. This is why many people prefer the privacy of their own vehicle than public transit, which happens to be more energy efficient. (A diesel-electric train hauling tons of freight can get over 200 miles per diesel gallon burned for each ton of freight hauled)

I would say, though, that culture and infrastructure are linked. The US primarily relies on interstates that are used by personal vehicles, which sort of came about because companies like GM bought up trolley train networks and intentionally destroyed them to force people onto cars. In other countries in Europe and even in the former Soviet Republics, rail infrastructure and public transit infrastructure was kept in place. In Europe and Japan, it was even updated to accomodate new, fast, safe bullet trains, many of which easily cruise at 150mph or even higher. Over a billion people have been given a ride on France's TGVs, and no passenger has yet been killed.

[Joe Fields]

7. so very true.

and while the politicians fiddle and offer us no real direction, our infrastructure crumbles. Thousands of bridges nationwide are deemed unsafe, the roads in most states are disastrous. Amtrack has never made a profit, and I heard the other day that it was cutting rail service.

[NoSheep]

40. THAT is THE problem.

[kenny blankenship]

5. It's for real. Dumb consumer = dumb market forces.

The main reason why Detroit's offerings are known as gas guzzlers compared to Japanese companies' models, is that gas is kept permanently expensive in Japan by high fuel taxes. The same could be said for European countries and their cars but Europe's many fuel efficient vehicles are generally not for sale in the U.S., leaving the continent represented mainly by luxury cars. In Germany as much as 77% of the price of a gallon of gas is excise tax, and in the Netherlands gasoline taxes often run almost twice as high in cost as the underlying product. In America gasoline taxes are the lowest that can be found in the industrial west. Whenever there's a gas crunch, sales of thrifty imports surge, but as soon as the price spike is over the American people go back to buying larger vehicles with larger engines. It seems dumb viewed from a distance. It is dumb--but it's people acting naturally and choosing what seems best for them at the time. The problem is not so much that the American people are dumb, it's that they have a dumb-as-hell government. The country as a whole will suffer the consequence of many individual dumb decisions through loss of jobs and money wasted on transportation costs (lining the pockets of foreign despots) that would have otherwise have been recirculated in more productive industries. Other countries like Japan and Germany, which have had to live with much smaller margins for error, have elected to override the choices individual consumers might make through the exercise of national energy policy and industrial policy.

In keeping with having no national industrial policy to speak of, and no national health care policy too, the United States also has no energy policy to speak of either. The natural result is wild instability and ruin for Detroit automakers. Clearly the idea that "the market forces" will lead automakers to build the cars with the right qualities to make profits for shareholders into the future was a dumb-as-hell one. Without stable profitability--made possible by a stable environment of fuel costs--the ability of Detroit to develop production technology and product design has withered, despite having all the supposed benefits of the free market and the most hands-off government in the industrial world. One year they're developing cars on the assumption that gasoline will be 1-2 dollars a gallon; the next year gas is 5 and going to 6 dollars a gallon. Japan by contrast did not leave the health of its auto industry or its national economy to the yo-yoing vicissitudes of market forces, and Japan has prevailed. Free market theory would predict that Japan and Europe would have been the big loser for having imposed artificial costs on its economy through "punitive" taxation on energy consumption. It was the United States who lost instead.

It's time for the real loser, laissez-faire economic ideology, to stand up and admit its utter failure in the real world.

[amdezurik]

6. stop the tax credit for SUV's

that the big 3 spent millions to lobby for and see how sales go. in particular if that credit were applied to any car over 30 mpg

[dflprincess]

8. A couple weeks ago the local news did a story on how local dealers

were selling more SUVs and big trucks and Toyota dealers actually had Priuses on the lot.

Idiots.

[madrchsod]

9. you want the government dicating what kind of car i can buy?

no thanks comrade...i like my freedom of choice.

[Joe Fields]

12. sometimes the parents must discipline the child.

For the good of everyone involved.

[gogoplata]

18. Yes, they need discipline. Much happier if they know limits.

[Joe Fields]

19. Yes, much happier!

[Fumesucker]

14. OK, let Detroit die then..

If they get government (taxpayer) money there should be strings attached.

See how your freedom of choice works out when there are no cars to be bought.

[NoSheep]

41. YES. I do. What the fuck is a car? Your identity? Sad.

[hendo]

10. oo, baby seal skin upholstry?

sounds smooth and silky.. I want some. But only if i can get the Cigars too. But I have a question, is there a way that you can throw in a bottle of top shelf scotch as well?

[Joe Fields]

13. you got it. I'll even throw in a bottle of Grey Poupon.

[hendo]

15. woohoo!!

and nice dark tinted windows so that i can pull up to someone, roll them down and ask for more Grey Poupon. :)

[Wednesdays]

23. Just watch out that they don't give you something

with gray poop on it. :evilgrin:

[stillcool]

11. we have been a consumer society

for too long. I don't think people change their habits until they are forced to...and that goes for corporations and governments too. It's easy to rationalize continuing behaviors, or even questioning the need to consider changing them. I saw one of the big oil execs on Charlie Rose a few years ago, and it was amazing. He spoke with such authority, justifying every little thing, from exorbitant bonuses to the 'rumor' of a limited supply of oil. I was left questioning everything I'd read, just because of his ability to sell his shtick. Blaming anybody/everybody else is always preferable to admitting wrong-doing.

[Odin2005]

16. This is why I can't call myself a "populist", most people are a bunch of idiots who...

...don't know or understand what is best for their own good. If that makes me sound like an authoritarian, elitist, "nanny-statist" them so be it.

[Joe Fields]

17. I don't believe it makes you a nanny statist.

Not in these particular circumstances.

[razors edge]

20. Sorry, I don't agree.

It is not an American only issue to begin with. Most of the goods and services to allow the 90 mile per hour situation you describe are imported now to begin with. If we stop buying them they will be diverted to emerging economies and the same will happen there.

Crude prices were manipulated higher by the (hopefully) soon to depart oilmen in the WH, and the oil companies are bringing their prices in line with what they should have been all along in the hopes that a grateful consumer will forget the the past raping of their pocketbook. We do have a short memory and this is what the oil companies count on.

That being said, and even though I derive my living in the petroleum industry, I do not believe in shitting where you sleep.

The issue is one of building a vehicle that people want. One that delivers the performance and utility desired and required,that demonstrates a real change in efficiency and ecology without rendering the vehicle useless for anything except a boat anchor when you need a camel to get the kids over the mountain in a snow storm.

Short of that you won't sell a single unit and this bailout bullshit is just another tax ripoff from our grandchildren.

We are all standing in the doorway, ready and packed for that journey of a thousand miles. We have our good leg out the door and ready to plant, but until we know where solid ground lies and what direction keeps us safe, we are paralyzed.

[undergroundpanther]

22. Truth is...

DiktatrW wrote:

<We are all standing in the doorway, ready and packed for that journey of a thousand miles. We have our good leg out the door and ready to plant, but until we know where solid ground lies and what direction keeps us safe, we are paralyzed.>

People are going to have to face the truth, there is NO solid ground,there is no one to point the way,no safety,or certainty.The world and life IS RADICAL UNCERTAINTY.

We will either decide to take a risk,and step out of the door,and move regardless of our fears..and change,so we can find a way to plant on our own and join together with each other instead of waiting for permission from a "leader" or"expert" .. Or we will decide to stay in the doorway, paralyzed,still playing the same old game of make believe,denying the world crashes down around our scared little heads as it dies,right along with us.

[razors edge]

24. I'd prefer a world

where simple truths are not so easily denied by power hungry mad men who would stand on their mothers necks to reach the brass ring.

It's obvious we will need to lower our expectations on many things. Are we ready for cheaper transportation that is light and efficient and typically considered less safe in a crash? Are we ready to hold the manufacturer of these vehicles harmless or will we insist upon making the vehicle manufacturers spend untold fortunes on testing and lawyers till it drives the price out of range or the vehicle to become so heavy it is inefficient?

The last leader to build a decent car for his nation is Hitler. Luckily we don't have one like him at present.

We do need leadership that can organize the kind of cooperation from the industry that strikes a balance we can live with.

What liability protections are reasonable.

What designs work best in what applications and what can government do to remove roadblocks to development.

What infrastructure is needed to accommodate the new technologies.

what regulations are needed to steer the consumer in the proper direction without giving monopolistic advantages to corps.

Those are some tall orders for a government who through the middle class overboard in the 70's.

I am not holding my breath. And I'm not waiting for a savior, although most are. It's what we taught them in school, and about the only damned thing most of them learned.

[undergroundpanther]

21. I don't have a car

I walk everywhere or take the bus.I live in sprawl land. I can walk for miles.
I can't afford a car,Don't want to maintain a car,feed it gas,and become dependent on a car.I don't want the cost and burden of a car.After witnessing for years how violent cars are,by being outside vehicles and seeing the effects not noticed by drivers ,like all the terrible roadkills,accidents and idiot and downright callous and aggressive behaviors cars helped foster in people.. I don't want to add more to what damage cars do to all the life around me to have a car.I do not like the effects car culture and cars have created, I hate the never ceasing sounds of engines running ,blinding headlights tearing apart the softness of the night and the car exhaust stink..So I will not contribute more to this mess by buying,maintaining,fueling and driving a car myself...

[bemildred]

25. Props.

Cars suck, and very expensively too.

[Joe Fields]

34. that's nice...

[anonymous171]

26. Meh. Once everyone starts buying again the prices will go right back up.

And then they will start selling those fuel efficient cars again.

[Qibing Zero]

27. Defamation of character!

Children are as rational, caring, and willing to learn as anyone (if not more so on all accounts).

Besides, relating them to consumers just makes you look old and cranky!

[Joe Fields]

35. I do hope your joking.

I missed the sarcasm smilie.

[Qibing Zero]

38. Not in the least

It just sounds like you're saying children are evil little creatures that need to be kept in line.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, though.

[Joe Fields]

42. OMG, you really leap to conclusions.

Children don't know any better and cannot be held accountable. If you think that they are wise and knowlegable, then I would have to say that's the most idiotic thing I've heard in awhile.

[jmg257]

28. So those who do want a SUV will have to buy a foreign made one? Doesn't seem helpful for Detroit.

Besides, I usually prefer making my own choices, not being forced to get what some else thinks is "right".

[TripleKatPad]

29. I was having this same conversation in my head

Not ten minutes ago. Everyone wants to blame auto company management for everything. But people WANTED and would only buy those stinking, giant SUVs and Hummers. So, of course, that's what Detroit produced. There's plenty of blame to go around. Time for American citizens to look in the mirror, too, and accept some responsibility.

[tjwash]

30. Large family? SUV? VAN? pfffffffffffft.

I have 4 brothers, and our dad just would cram us all in the corvair if he actually had to drive us anywhere. Anything less than 5 miles we were walking.

Soccer mom with her 3 kids really does not need that behemoth suburban with the dual TV/DVD combo and fold out card table in the back. You're absolutely right though...somewhere along the line Madison avenue grabbed sheeple by the nose and convinced them they needed that stuff.

[Joe Fields]

36. I completely agree!

[Marrah_G]

47. Single mom- 3 kids- yes I have a minivan

I drive other kids home from school after activities. I am all alone with no one close by to help. If I need to buy or transport anything large I would be screwed without my van. It's nothing special, no dvd or even a cd player. Just standard from the factory- I do have power windows-yay!

I am an adult. I am quite capable of making my own choices.

I wish people would stop trying to legislate every minute detail of my life.

Oh.....all those kids crammed into a little corvair? that would get you ticketed and or arrested these days.

Each kid must have a seat with a seat belt or car seat.

There are many things we did "back in the day" that are now illegal.

I am quite sure you can't toss a half dozen kids in the bed of your pickup anymore, at least not here.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

33. Pricing factors into this.

In the last few months, dealers have been conducting major discounts on trucks. A truck that went for $50k last year was selling for $32k this year.

[Joe Fields]

37. You can buy a lot of gas for the difference. Still, it's short term

bargain for a long term problem.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. If you *need* a truck... last month was a good time to buy. n/t

[NoSheep]

39. I thought I heard the GM guy say on NPR today-in a backtracking sort of way-

that they were committed to fuel efficiency now (bullshit I know but that's what i heard him say)

[Edweird]

43. People like trucks and SUV's..That's just the way it is.

[wuushew]

46. kick

:kick:

[The2ndWheel]

48. Cheap energy creates waste

Fuel efficiency and cheap energy will create more waste. You need fuel efficiency and high energy prices.