Michael Moore's Plan to Save the Big 3 (Petition)

[graywarrior]

http://bravenewfilms.org/petitions/show/32-support-michael-moore-s-plan-to-save-the-big-3

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Kicked so more can see and sign n/t

[Kalyke]

2. Stupid plan

I won't be signing this.

I have a plan of my own:

1. Americans need to stop demanding trucks and SUVs and start purchasing all these hybrid and electric cars they keep saying they want, but never seem to get around and purchase.

2. Republicans in Congress need to give up their pipe dreams of busting the unions because even Henry Ford several decades ago understood that, in order to stay in business, you have to pay your employees well enough to purchase your product.

3. People on message boards need to get out into the real world every now and then and realize there is a lot of work needed to be done to convince Americans in areas outside of big cities that light rail would be of some benefit to them. People in Oklahoma, Tennessee, Arkansas, Colorado, Nebraska, Alabama and Mississippi, for example, haven't seen a passenger train in a brazillion years (other than the novelties of the Chattanooga Choo-Choo) and, therefore, feel distantly removed from such modes of transportation. People on message boards also need to realize that most of the country does NOT live in tight quarters and folks need automobiles for farming, working and play.

4. Congress, Michael Moore and a good number of people on DU need to read more, if possible. Ford, for example, has had their future solvency plans broadcast and written about several times since summer. They plan to bring in their more fuel efficient European line, they're introducing two new hybrids in 2009 and they're waiting on the American people to get their heads out of their asses and purchase some of these products instead of, well, trucks and SUVs.

5. Congress needs to place stiff tariffs on foreign automobiles, pronto.

Of course, my plan won't work because Americans, including our Congress, are so woefully misinformed they couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.

[lunatica]

3. When I tried to buy a hybrid they didn't have enough

My car was totalled and I was forced to buy a new one right away. I tried to buy a hybrid but was told the waiting list was over a year long.

[Kalyke]

4. When was this?

I did a Google search last night for hybrids in my area and found a good number of them - new and used.

I think there was some push to purchase them when they first came out, but that "shininess" has worn off now that people are hurting for money and can't afford a $32,000+ investment when they can buy a non-hybrid for a lot less.

[lunatica]

5. 2006

You're inference that I'm lying is pathetic

[Kalyke]

10. Your inability to read is pathetic.

I never inferred you were lying and even just re-read my post to see where in the hell you would get that idea (I didn't see it). If I'd thought you were lying, I would have flat-out said so. I don't mince words.

I'm merely pointing out that December 2008 is far different than 2006. People can't afford $32,000+ cars right now; therefore, there are no more waiting lists.

:eyes:

[Bluenorthwest]

13. Gee

You say that Americans demand SUVs and refuse to buy hybrids, but you also say that Americans can not afford to buy hybrids, which is far more accurate.

Which is it? Are we refusing to buy them, or can we simply not afford them? It really can not be both.
What's the old saying from the South about pigs in pokes, and 40 thousand dollar cars that don't exist yet?

[jaybeat]

7. No, here's what's stuipd.

1. If Americans want trucks and SUVs that get decent fuel economy, they can't buy them. The Isuzu Rodeo (overseas, not the SUV made in Kentucky) and the successor Isuzu D-Max/Chevy Colorado, gets 50 mpg--it's a four-door pickup. Other "small" pickups (Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Ford Ranger!) come w/four doors and diesel engines everywhere in the world--except the US! Stupid.

2. Agreed. Not Stupid.

3. Uh, 50 years ago, trains and transit went just about *everywhere* anyone lived. Sure, use the car or truck to get the rest of the way, but long-haul trucks? Long-distance car trips? Stupid. Subsidizing inefficient cars and trucks with tax dollars while driving rail into the ground? Stupid.

4. Great. They could have done it 20 years ago. Instead, they made a Lincoln pickup truck. Stupid.

5. Er, no. Congress needs to let compact, fuel efficient vehicles INTO the US, so that Detroit will have something to compete with besides themselves. They live in a bubble, isolated from the realities the rest of the world has been dealing with for decades. (Europe's had fuel costs 2-3 times ours for 30+ years. They still drive, farm, and get from here to there. Faster than we do, to.) Stupid.

[Kalyke]

12. Here's what you're missing.

1. Cost. Diesel autos are more expesnive Joe Farmer can't afford them. Caveat: I didn't mention affordabliity in my initial prose. Joe and Jane wanted AFFORDABLE big trucks and SUVs. The Big 3 gave them to them.

2. We agree.

3. Yes, I know this. I'm 38. I wasn't alive 50 years ago and neither were most people currently in the work force (and, if they were, they were too small to remember it). So, my point still stands. People aren't familiar with this type of travel and they're too in love with the freedom a personal vehicle allows them. Oh - and I'm all for subsidizing efficient vehicles. The Japanese government does that for their auto-makers by helping with research and development. We agree on that point.

4. It may have been stupid, but apparently people wanted it. :shrug:

5. Fine, but you can't go around blaming management if it's not a level playing field. The Big 3 competed where they thought they had a strong foothold: the truck and SUV game. And, for Pete's sake, Britian is the size of Alabama. Europe hardly has the vastness of the US AND, here's the kicker, they aren't in love with automobiles like Americans. It's a mindset. So, don't call me stupid. You need to study history a bit more.

[jaybeat]

22. Fine. You're missing plenty, too.

Just so we're clear, you're the one who called ideas stupid, and I tossed some back at 'cha. I never called YOU stupid, only your arguments, and wouldn't have done that if you hadn't gotten the ball rolling.

1. Cost. I call bullshit. Ask the Australians (who drive plenty, and have plenty of long distances, BTW), about their diesel pickups and SUVs. WAY cheaper than the huge hulks Detroit tries to sell. Priced an F150 lately?? Or a full-sized Dodge or Chevy? Get out.

1a. You know why cars cost more when they are made in USA? Healthcare. Germany and France export cars all over the world. Those companies don't have to pay a dime in health care for their employees. Higher taxes, maybe. But health care costs? Zip. Nadda. Zero. Zilch.

3. You and I weren't alive 50 years ago, but the big US auto companies were. They lobbied Washington to build freeways and regulate railroads into the ground; subsidize rubber and gasoline and destroy streetcar companies. They sowed; now they (and the rest of us who didn't have a say 'cause we weren't born yet) reap.

3a. Red Herring Alert! Red Herring Alert. Public, mass, and/or rail transit are NOT about "taking away people's cars!" That's trying to scare people like the gun lobby does. It's bullshit. We're talking about reducing the number of vehicle miles traveled. Reducing the use of fossil fuels. Reducing the amount of greenhouse gases we emit. If we can shift SOME trips to transit or rail, we do that. We need to do lots of other things, too, including making every mile traveled use less fuel, pollute less, and use more renewable, local fuel. But we ain't takin' away yer cars, so quit yer yappin' about it!

4. If so many people wanted the cars Detroit's been trying to sell, how come they are doing so poorly, compare with overseas-based companies (who still aren't doing so great). Not as many people want a Lincoln luxury monstrosity as want a Prius, I'd expect.

5. Australian's love their cars a lot, and they've got massive distances. So does Africa and the Middle East, though not as big a market, certainly. But, again, the Big Three MAKE a lot of these better vehicles, they just don't sell them here? Why? Well, for one they thought fighting higher CAFE standards for 30 years would make them more money. Giving Americans bigger, more, faster, heavier is usually a good strategy. But that kind of conventional thinking is what got us into this mess. Toyota, Honda, Isuzu, VW, BMW, Volvo, M&M etc. are no Saints (the Tundra gets worse economy than an F150, I think), but they still see a market in economy. Lower cost of ownership. Look how well the Sprinter's done as a commercial vehicle? FedEx used to drive step-vans. Now they drive diesel Sprinters that get twice the MPG. Why wouldn't they? Someone in Detroit needs to get a clue that households, especially today, are thinking the same way. When it comes to deciding what to sell to the US market, what's not level?

[Laelth]

29. Killer post. Lots of truth in there. Thanks. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[John Q. Citizen]

23. You are too young to remember, but the big 3, big oil and the tire manufactutors

colluded to put trolley systems out of business all across the US. Why? If people didn't use those system I mean?

[lunatica]

6. Thanks graywarrior, I signed the petition

Kick

[deaniac21]

8. Moore is an economic genius.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Thanks for posting this

Mike was great on Countdown last night.

[dysfunctional press]

11. can't sign, because i don't agree with it.

let the rail companies build the rail products, while the carmakers concentrate on over-the-road vehicles.

[Kalyke]

14. Thank you.

I like Moore and I agree with him on many issues - just not this one.

For the record, my Fords have all been wonderful cars. Much better than my husband's foreign sedan, which is in the shop every three months.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. It makes more sense than "loaning" money to failed corporations who can't pay it back.

But, politics, and lobbyists, will probably stick with the P.T. Barnum approach of soaking he suckers and telling us that "it's good for us."

[still_one]

16. I am more convienced that any money loaned to the big 3 auto comapnies will NOT save ANY American

jobs.

We are lending money to corporations headed by CEOs, who are responsible for the reason those companies are in the state they are in

If nothing else, why should THOSE CEOs continue to run the companies they helped destroy?

None of this makes sense, and it also applies to the financial institutions

[alfredo]

17. Moore was great on TV last night

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. It's not a plan, it's rhetoric. n/t

[graywarrior]

19. I spread controversy wherever I post

[lunatica]

20. You just attract it...

:thumbsup:

[graywarrior]

21. I could make a living off it

If there was any money around

:evilgrin:

[BrklynLiberal]

24. K&R

[MrsBrady]

25. K&R 100%

[satya]

26. Pass H.R. 676 and let all businesses (not just the big 3) off the hook for medical benefits.

Wouldn't that help their balance sheets immediately?

This is all about busting the unions. If we're going to let some companies go bust, then let it be the private insurers and for-profit health care and forget HR 676, just go straight to single-payer.

[Laelth]

27. k&r n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[tomreedtoon]

28. These petitions go to Reid and Pelosi. We're doomed.

They won't act on them, even if 300 million signatures come in. They're Bushies and wimps.