I gotta ask - what if it's ALL bullshit?

[Skip Intro]

I ponder this from time to time and I hope my initiation of this discussion doesn't get me banned.

But I gotta wonder - what if it's all bullshit?

What if all you see and hear from the mass media is bullshit?

What if all you see and hear from our politicians, the powerful ones, is bullshit?

What if the parties are a coordinated illusion?

What if they only dance before us from time to time for us to vote on the best dancer?

What if the national debt, the deficit spending, the bailouts, the high gas prices, what if all of it is a rip off of our treasury under the guise of public service by criminals at the higher echelons of either major party?

What if they're in cahoots?

What if everything you see on tv - shows, commercials, "news." What if everything you see on tv is brainwashing - manipulating your desires and actions?

What if it's all bullshit, we're zombies, and they've got us entertained while they rob us blind, destroying the country in the process?

The pendulum swings. Toward "us" now, but it will swing back. And then back again.

We all know it.


edit: fucking grammar

[RainDog]

1. step away from the bong

... j/k

[bertman]

58. Priceless!!

:rofl: :rofl:

Step away from the bong.

[RoyGBiv]

2. What if C-A-T ...

... really spells "DOG"?

Hmmm? Thought about that?

[20score]

3. This question has been asked by stoned college students throughout time.

Maybe 10 google times.

Still no answer.

Gotta love the question, though.

The answer of course is - 42.

[earth mom]

4. It is all bullshit. If people don't realize that by now, they are not paying attention. nt

[napi21]

5. Use your head. For months they were sayig it wasn't a recession,

but we knew better.

Everybody knew Paulson was nuts when he asked for $750 billion with no oversight and no controls.

They kept saying unenplyoment was low, but we knew better.

Just use your head.

If it doesn't make sense, it's a lie!

[napoleon_in_rags]

15. Excellent post.

That's exactly what it is, that which has predictive power, that which we said in the past that turns out to be true. That's science. That's analysis. Everything else is control, from framing the question as something a stoned college student would say without addressing its content to the latest TV news spin focusing on things that don't effect our lives in any real way.

[truedelphi]

52. Exactly. n/t

[soulcore]

6. What if?!

I've been living under that very assumption for the last 10 years or so .. and I'm only 28.

Throw away your TV. Stop believing in politicians. They all lie. Period.

[Laelth]

34. I've been watching politics for a long time, and I need to make this distinction.

Perhaps all politicians do lie, but one particular party lies a lot more often and about things that are a lot more important than the other party.

You can guess which one that is.

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[MrMickeysMom]

7. Then, I'd say-

Where are the aliens, and why are they hiding the mother-ship from us? I want to serve mankind.

[leftstreet]

8. War is peace! Freedom is slavery! Ignorance is strength!

Mission Accomplished!

[NYC_SKP]

9. Are you saying that you've just NOW figured this out?...Jesus....DUH!

We've known it all along!


:thumbsup:

[20score]

10. It is all bullshit. You're right about that.

And it does seem orchestrated.

But, the answer is still - 42.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. And what if I'm a brain floating in a jar, dreaming all of this?

Then I'm going to dream me some comfier socks. It's fuckin' cold out.

Hmmmm. Maybe the universe isn't expanding, everything inside it is just shrinking.. How would you know the difference, if there is no outside? Wait a minute. If nothing is outside, where is everything? Nowhere?

....Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

[TahitiNut]

12. Abby Normal? Is that you?

[TheWraith]

18. Hmm... I posted a similar opening thought before I saw your message.

GMTA.

[MrSlayer]

13. Well it is all bullshit.

Politics are the intellectual version of the WWF. Mostly fake, completely staged and in the end the owners get all the money. It is entertaining though.

[Hannah Bell]

14. I think most of it is.

I started to realize it when I lived overseas in the 80s.

Realised it more during some work experiences.

More when I did some serious research into social security & learned the public picture painted by both left & right was bullshit.

More researching family histories of wealth & history in general.


I'm of the opinion *they* - some portion of *them,* anyway - *are* in cahoots. It's gotten pretty blatant, in fact.

It's perfectly possible for every person living on this earth to have a decent, healthy, stable, productive life, while working less than most people do today & using fewer resources to boot. Except for the mind virus.

[Ichingcarpenter]

16. Galieo and Copernicus asked the same questions

So did those that thought for themselves.

[dixiegrrrrl]

44. Made them quite popular, didn't it? NOT

[TheWraith]

17. What if you're just a brain in a tank, just dreaming away?

Sooner or later you've got to crank down the paranoia and accept what sits in front of you. That the mass media, while lazy, inept, and often the tools of manipulation, aren't part of a grand overarching conspiracy. That the economic downturn is the result of bad policies, not an excuse to transfer money to the rich. That the world really isn't being run by anybody who knows what they're doing.

Yet.

[Popol Vuh]

19. Congratz! Welcome to the community of the enlightened

They are all bought and paid for by the powers behind the scenes. The mere FACT that you see someone on TV or in a magazine or newspaper means that they are not the ones controlling what happens. Obama is CFR (Council on Foreign Relations). Republican/Democrats Bush/Obama just opposites sides of the same coin. Good cop bad cop, both are still cops. Look, JFK was one of them too, but, he turned and then they whacked him.

That's why there was no fucking way they were ever going to let RFK win an election to the White House. There's no fucking way they could afford to take that risk. They had to whack him too.

Again, welcome to the community of the enlightened. Now here's some George Carlin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU3LkM1onFg


Peace,
Popol Vuh

[Joe the Liberal]

20. It is bullshit.......

and it's not to hard to figure out especially over the last eight years. The media and the politicians, republicans and democrats may seem like they hate each other by what you see and hear but in reality, behind the scenes its a whole different story. The economic turmoil is planned and created, the bailout is a scam, everything, it's all bullshit. C'mon where have you been? Wake up, of course it's bullshit.

[tritsofme]

21. What if you are one of them?

nt

[natrat]

22. i wonder if when they round us up for the camps that will be bullshit too?

[Tigress DEM]

23. Bullshit makes GOOD fertilizer.

Thing is with DEMOCRACY most of it IS bullshit, but in between times we get enough seeds planted and fertilized to make the world go round anyway.

Thing about a REAL DEM is they don't particularly LIKE BS and if they can do the job without it, they will.

WE THE PEOPLE ARE paying the price for our zoning out or apathy that set in after Vietnam got rejected and Nixon bounced.

It took SO MUCH EFFORT to get that done so people were ripe for letting the Govt be infiltrated with politicians who looked good but were evil under the skin.

It's less like a pendulum and more like a Segway PT. Each of us has to keep our own balance for the whole balance to be maintained.

The Govt behaves itself ONLY when all eyes are watching and all actions are transparent to the populace.

THIS administration going out is still smearing shit on the White House walls before it goes.

The grownups ARE in charge now and it won't be all that fun some days, but it will get better.

We CAN be zombies or we can shut off the damm TV or pressure the media to grow up and put on shows that we really WANT to watch.

[ChrisMCV]

24. I have been saying this for years

I am the unbanned repug that hangs out and this is the reason why we all need each other.
The system is so screwed it is beyond words. It is not some overreaching conspiracy, rather the culture of power and money that drives the vast majority of politicians on both sides of the aisle.

You here, even though I may disagree on many viewpoints are absolutely needed as you help keep the idiots on my side of the aisle in check, and I and those on my side hopefully can keep your idiots in check.

Its unfortunate, but right now that seems to be the best we can do, but I am a bit of a pessimist when it comes to politics lately, and not because of who won or lost, but because of the massive use of talking points and propaganda by both sides.

[tekisui]

25. What exact;y is an 'unbanned repug'?

Have you been banned before?

[ChrisMCV]

26. no, just still here

I am no mole, and have never been banned or had a previous account/sock puppet or any of that crap. I also am clear on my viewpoints, but I avoid debate here as this is your board, I am at best a guest and I know it.
I generally only post when its a subject that I think is beyond the rep/dem debate and something we as people can talk about. In this case its the fact that the political machine exists primarily for its OWN best interest and not that of its constituents. This is of course a generalization, but a very true one IMHO.

The ultimate responsibility for our government is ours, good and bad, left and right. More often then not, except for the strongholds of discussion on each side, DU on the left for instance, there is very little real discussion that educates and informs. I simply try to chime in on things that reach beyond the normal left/right debate on occasion.

[Autumn]

29. Welcome to DU Chris

I hope you stick around. Your comment in your profile seems to be right on.

[ChrisMCV]

31. Thank you, we are all in this together

I lurked here for about 5 years and have read the board pretty much daily for most of that time.
Know the enemy so to speak, only I realize your not the enemy, and neither am I.

I hope we all can work towards something better where the best of both sides work together to make something greater then the sum of its parts, not just a game of comprimise and power which allows the worst to rise while those with true vision get marginalized.

[blindpig]

27. So what then?

Though I'd shy away from the conspiratorial aspect of your OP, it's more of a cancerous organism functioning according to it's own logic, yeah, it's all jive.

So what do we do about it?

[ChrisMCV]

30. I wish like hell I knew

Our government is so big and complex it takes a "pro" to rise to power in the system.
To become a pro takes a person, even with the best of intention and comprimises them.
It ensures only those who are willing to play the game rise to positions of power.

Those that garner enough popularity to rise, but are outside the system, are portrayed as "outsiders" or crazy or some such. And they do attract others that ARE a bit crazy. Libetarians are a good example. Great ideas, but way too many in the black helicopter brigade to be taken seriously.

There is always talk of leaders and followers.
Our brains developed as hunter gatherers, and later agrarian species, where there was need of a certain "pack" mentality. Works pretty good in a situation of a small distributed population.

Now we are billions strong and the ratio of leaders to followers is severely skewed. Say on average there is one "leader type" for every 50 "follower types" So you end up with a very complex network of layers on layers of leader types fighting for position in the "Pack".

Guess who rises to the top? Generally its the most ruthless, at least politically.

In a small grouping, the leader is directly responsible to those around them.

Today the leader is seperated from those he/she leads by an incredibly complex, multilayered complex of people that they no longer have to view their decisions on a personal level. This creates a dangerous system and I don't think there is an easy "fix".

Even if one side won 100% of every seat in every branch of government, and the opposition were to "disappear", government would probably not change all that much. Thats why we all need to watch our politicians together, not simply on the basis of left wing/right wing.

[RagAss]

28. All concept is illusion.....even the things you like to hear....n/t

[Festivito]

32. No, not bullshit, it's just being human.

There are concerted efforts out there to take our properties, but understand that it is human to be so insecure as to need more than what is needed by that same insecure person. From time to time we use the word human to mean flawed.

And flawed we are.

When a pundit talks, do you think that pundit might be concerned with what his boss thinks? Sure he is. So are you when at your job. If the pundit boss wants greater media consolidation in order to enjoy his sick concept of the lottery win-it-all mentality we all enjoy, well, hey, why not report this in his favored light, make him happy in order to get that promotion, get that pay raise and KEEP THE JOB.

This works to a point. About now, many pundits are starting to realize that from a larger perspective, they've been shooting themselves in their own foot. Oh well, human, flawed, wrong, oops, time to get real again. And the pendulum starts to swing back.

Are the politicians worried about how the press will represent them in the press? Sure they are. So before press enlightenment they'll say what the press want them to say which runs on what the press' boss wants the press to say. Some topics break through this curb. Again, it's not perfectly contained. It's just a human thing.

Is it all a big conspiracy. Well, yes, there are conspiracies out there. Some are really well constructed. But, they are all constructed by humans. And by their inherently flawed nature, they can fail. Large groups of united people, let's say in a Democracy, are stronger than small groups of people united--no matter how well funded those small groups can be funded. We can make them fail.

It's not bullshit, it's just human.

[Laelth]

33. Entirely possible.

And you ask the right question ... what if?

Well, I say we keep fighting for what we believe is right. And we vote for the party that at least pretends to advance a progressive agenda, even if they are in cahoots with the other side.

What else would you have use do?

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[fla nocount]

35. What do you mean, What If? Of course it's BS.

You are now a fringe-dweller and are free of the disease that infects and confuses humanity. You're bindings have been loosened and the scales cast from your eyes. It's watch and wait from this point...assist any stragglers on your path, it's one of the responsibilities that come with being free.

[Two Americas]

51. not "fringe"

The general public already knows this, it is the intellectuals, the educated, the activists for whom this is news. It is not the concepts involved in seeing it all as bullshit that are jarring, that people resist, it is the social implications - seeing it all as bullshit threatens one's social status for the successful, for the winners, the adjusted, the "realistic."

It is so obvious that it is all bullshit, the evidence is so overwhelming and unambiguous, that denying it distorts all of our thinking and perceptions.

The people lack the rhetoric and concepts to express their opposition to the ruling class, and that is because anyone and everyone with verbal skills is pressured and co-opted into the service of the ruling class, which decapitates the working class.

The people say "they" when referring to the actions of the ruling class, the activists say "we." That is because they are first and foremost gentrified and aristocratic, which is a requirement if you are going to eat, going to make a living as one of the palace guards, the house Negroes.The people say "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" - which is far to the Left from the activist community. The people say "rich man's war, poor man's fight."

Seeing it all as bullshit will place one on the fringe of a certain social circle, the winners, the intellectuals, the liberal activists, the pundits and the chattering class, the academics and "leaders" - really just brown-nosers and sycophants to the powerful. But it places one right in the center of the prevailing thinking in the working class in general to see it all as bullshit.

Now, no doubt, some will be tempted to defend our house Negro status, thinking they are defending intellectualism or liberalism or academia. But I am not attacking those. I am pointing out how corrupted and compromised those are.

People have difficulty recognizing how they have been co-opted into the promotion of reactionary politics and the defense of the ruling class, because they have so much invested in their own personal success as smart people, and because of the risk of becoming social outcasts and pariahs with the other intellectuals and activists.

It is a lie that if we see it as all bullshit that we court mental illness, or that we will never get laid, or will be despised by the cool kids, or will starve. That lie is part of the web of lies that are designed to frighten us into denying our own perceptions and analysis, and to place ourselves into the harness and go to work 24 hours a day - not much of an exaggeration - promoting the whims and desires of the few, the wealthy and powerful few, the ruling class.

Thinkers (writers, speakers, readers) of the world arise and unite. We have nothing to lose but our mental chains, and those chains are the worst kind of all.

Almost all of the people are on our side - the invisible people, the people cleaning our toilets, hauling the trash, mowing the lawns, growing the food, cleaning the streets, building and repairing the cars, driving bus, waiting table, cleaning windows, working the warehouse, paving the roads, wiring the buildings, cleaning the offices, running the trains, driving truck, working the counter, washing the dishes, fixing the roofs, sorting and delivering the mail, fixing the plumbing, sweeping the floors, nursing, teaching and hundreds of other vital and unheralded tasks.

All of the anxiety, the fear, the danger, comes not from becoming a "radical" - it comes from the mental and emotional tension of trying to serve two masters, from trying to reconcile what we know to be true with what we are forced to promote and believe to be true. Cognitive dissonance has reached epidemic proportions in the liberal activist community, and that is the cause of all of the confusion and discomfort.

[Hannah Bell]

56. great post.

[Peace Patriot]

36. I'd say yes to most of your what-if's, but I think this is the crucial part: WHY?

Why is our political life so illusory and so rigged?

I think the answer is: To keep the citizenry from becoming active participants in our government, and to prevent us from exercising our sovereignty as a people. The illusions and the rigged-ness are aimed at more than disempowerment; they are aimed at demoralization.

Our response therefore needs to be: MORE CITIZEN INVOLVEMENT.

That is what the corpo/fascists fear most--we the people taking back our government.

I agree that we live in a sort of "Alice in Wonderland" political world. Everything is upside down, inside out and backwards. We vote against the Iraq War, and Congress escalates the war--sends more troops, gives Bush/Cheney billions more of our non-existent tax dollars to keep killing and occupying Iraqis until they sign the oil contracts, and an agreement for the US military to protect those contracts. The Bushwhacks and the Democrats seem to be of one purpose, in this regard. And even the president we think we just elected to end the war is now talking about long term occupation--some US troops in Iraq indefinitely--while the Forever War is moved to Afghanistan. Activists and voters flocked to him, as the only candidate left standing who opposed the Iraq War. And many now feel betrayed on this and other issues. The war just goes on and on and on, no matter how we vote, no matter what we do. The same with presidential crime. Our only weapon against it--impeachment--was taken "off the table"--a "table" that we were not sitting at. The accountability of the president was removed. The Constitution was shredded that day, by our party leaders.

And when you think back over the last decade, and research and investigate its events, you see a lot of things that were not very apparent at the time: For instance, the removal of all transparency in vote counting, and giving our election system over to private corporations, to be run by electronics with 'TRADE SECRET' code and virtually no audit/recount controls. That was accomplished by the Anthrax Congress in the same month as the Iraq War Resolution, and I believe they are related. The Iraq War Resolution guaranteed unjust war; the e-voting bill (HAVA) provided the means for shoving that unjust war down the throats of the American people, nearly 60% of whom opposed the Iraq war (Feb 03, all polls).

YES, we are being manipulated, propagandized and brainwashed. But what should we do about it? I think we should realize WHY these corpo/fascist forces are so determined to control the American people. It is because of our great potential as a progressive force in the world, especially our potential to curtail the global corporate predators and war profiteers who are harming the people of other countries as well as our own. Think about THAT. They damn well know the power of a sovereign vote in the U.S. of A. They damn well know what we would do if all our votes were counted in the public venue. As the final control, they withdrew all transparency from vote counting, and now, there is hardly a public official in this country, including President-Elect Barack Obama, who can prove that he or she was actually elected. The corpo/fascists have control of the actual mechanism of voting, and can easily--EASILY--manipulate the results.

So we get Bush-Cheney again in 2004, and a narrative about "soccer moms." Total bullshit. And four more years of war. Now we get a softer narrative, but the result is the same. More war. And guess what? We're clean out of money to help the poor and middle class in any way. (Question: How will the Bushwhacks' Financial 9/11 affect your social spending proposals? Answer (Obama): We'll have to prioritize and put some things off. --not exact quotations, but just about). It's a program for creating easy cannon fodder, I guess. No jobs, no alternatives; join the Army--and go kill more foreigners for Exxon Mobil, or whichever global corporate predators are in need of an army.

This IS our situation. The "good emperor" cannot really restore democracy. He is better than the "bad emperor," but he can be replaced--EASILY replaced--if he tries to implement any such notion (democracy) in any serious way. And the Diebold III Congress? They will do as they are told (not by us).

Do we despair at all this dreadful illusion and manipulation? NO! Understand what it is FOR. It is to shut you and me down; to make us passive; to make us give up on democracy. It is VERY intense, and very much aimed at making us feel hopeless and powerless. We need to understand our situation, with open eyes. We need to be practical. We need to look very strategically at the mechanisms of power--for instance, the voting system--and go for restoring our power as a people. I think restoring transparent vote counting is Priority No. 1. I think it can be done by citizen action at the state/local level. (Congress ain't gonna do it, believe me--and they could make things worse.) We have to fight this induced powerlessness--and all the corpo/fascist 'news' monopoly illusions that keep reinforcing it--by thinking clearly, and understanding power in a very practical way.

You and me becoming passive, in the face of this task--restoring democracy, restoring transparency, restoring accountability, restoring our power as a people--is what the manipulators want. That is their goal. So that is the very thing that we must deny them. They fear us. They really do. Why do you think they let Obama win? Why do you think they put a 'Democratic' stamp on the war in 2006? Illusions! Yup, very much so. BUT, also, these things are a measure of their fear of We, the People. And the remedy? First of all, take away their voting machines. (Or, alternatively--or in the meantime--demand that local election officials provide a paper ballot for every vote, and public counting of at least 10% of the ballots, at the local level, as a check on machine fraud.) Secondly, well, there is much to be done, as we all know--once we are able to elect real representatives of the people. Curtailment of the corpo/fascist 'news' monopolies. Significant cuts to the war budget (no more wars of choice!). A fair tax code. Total public funding of elections; free air time for candidates. Etc. Undoing all the harm. Re-building our democracy and our country.

We are really back to square one--pre-1776. Global corporate predators have replaced the East India Company (and the king). We have to start all over again, and throw the oppressors off. And we must do it peacefully and democratically over the long haul--as it is occurring in South America. Violent revolution is not an option, in my opinion--and in the opinion of most people. It almost always leads to more oppression. Also, our government now has boffo weapons and other war powers (massive domestic spying, indefinite detention without trial, etc.). They will simply crush any violent rebellion. That kind of rebellion is the past. The future is the long hard work of creating or re-creating democracy. And, as the South Americans are showing, it CAN be done. (And, not incidentally, one of the keys to the awesome leftist democracy movement in South America has been transparent vote counting--which was not easily achieved; it was achieved by hard work on the part of many people.)

If you think WE are suffering unreality--look into the history of dictatorships in South America. Illusion, delusion, brainwashing, propaganda and total unreality ran rampant during those regimes. And now South Americans are creating better democracies than our own ever was (except during the "New Deal" era). Our "good emperor" may help us do that. I have little doubt that he wants to. But he cannot do it himself. And he is hamstrung by "deals" he has had to make, to be permitted into the White House. If we want democracy, it is our task to create it. No one else can or will do it for us.

[Karenina]

38. You are SUCH a gem.

:loveya:

[leftstreet]

43. This post is a MUST READ

:thumbsup:

[Two Americas]

53. good post

Thanks. Well done.

One disagreement - overthrowing tyranny is not obsolete, and the weaponry is irrelevant. The greatest power that the weapons have is for intimidation purposes. If we believe that the weapons make social progress impossible, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Popular movements against tyranny were recently successful in Eastern Europe, despite the massive weaponry of the Warsaw Pact nations.

We should never think that we, the working people, are weak, powerless and at a disadvantage. It is the ruling class that is fearful, weak and powerless. That is why they need to intimidate us with weapons and bombard us with relentless propaganda and threats.

The state, the ruling class, has always been able to out-gun the people. So what?

[Peace Patriot]

65. The American Revolution was very bloody, and awful, awful, awful!

And most of the people who died, horrible painful deaths, were the poor, on both sides. And it has been true of almost every bloody revolution, that one tyranny replaces another. I have no illusions whatsoever about war of any kind, and I do not believe in violence to solve ANY problem. Maybe it's because I am something of a Buddhist, and I believe that violence breeds violence. The bad karma of killing other human beings comes back into the world. Some bloody revolutions have certainly been understandable, even laudable in some cases, but I wouldn't wish them on anybody. Because I think the blood--the ghosts, the hauntings, the injustices, the harm to the innocent--comes back.

"The state, the ruling class, has always been able to out-gun the people. So what?" This is just too casual a statement for me. "So what?" Death is what. Mass death. Horror. Displacement. Torture. Blood on your hands. Blood on your conscience. Lots of blood. And often the blood of innocents.

"...overthrowing tyranny is not obsolete, and the weaponry is irrelevant." I didn't say it was obsolete. Not at all. But there are many ways to overthrow tyranny. I just don't believe in one of them--killing people. Because the act of killing someone in a revolution is an act aimed at grabbing the power of the state, comparable to the acts of those who use the power of the state to oppress others. That is why so many bloody revolutions have gone bad. You need to exert a different kind of power to create a true and lasting revolution, one that will not turn against its own ideals. I guess you could call me a Gandhian and devotee of Martin Luther King. Change has to be deep. If it is merely a change of state power, or transfer of material wealth, by violence, it is not really change.

Further, I totally believe that the human race is evolving,socially and psychologically--a common human consciousness is being born, even as weapons have become so terrible, and even as we stand in peril of losing the planet that gave us birth, and on which we are wholly dependent. New ideas of equality and common purpose are binding people together across the globe. And if there is one universal in all of it, it is the worldwide desire for peace. Also, the desire not to be exploited, and the desire of self-rule, of sovereignty. Although there is violence and great suffering the world, never in human history have so many people been aware of the suffering and determined upon putting things right. Violent revolution is a thing of the past. It too often has been exploited by the violent, and even by those against whom it was aimed. For instance, the FARC guerrillas in Colombia are used as an excuse for war profiteering and vast corruption. I can't really condemn FARC, when I look at who is running Colombia (people who use death squads, killing thousands of people, to keep power; criminals and drug lords). But I see how the forces of evil use the FARC for their own purposes, to keep up a perennial war, supported by U.S. taxpayers, against their own people. It is a tragedy. And I wouldn't wish it on anybody. The U.S./Colombia recently killed one of the FARC ambassadors, who was trying to negotiate a peaceful end to the 40+ year Colombian civil war, with a bombing/raid on his camp inside Ecuador's border--killing a total of 25 people, in their sleep--with the excuse that they were "terrorists." That is what armed rebellion can lead to--the opposite of what you want.

I don't have all the answers. But I very strongly believe that we must--we simply MUST find another way to bring about change. Our Founders thought they were doing just that, by founding our democracy. Democracy builds change into the government system. It makes it possible for the people to correct the course of the ship of state, when it's headed toward disaster. And one of the great crimes of the Bush Junta (and our party leaders who have colluded with it) is to interfere with that democratic process, and keep us from correcting course.

Well, here, we have at least the memory of democracy--the memory of our tradition. We can build on that. We don't have to start from scratch. There is a lot of wisdom in our history, and many great social/political movements, and all of them essentially peaceful, and, until recently, we were making steady progress in the expansion of human and civil rights, and in the great experiment of living peacefully and prosperously in a multi-cultural society with infusions of immigrants from every land and culture. It was not so long ago that the U.S. was leading the world in efforts toward nuclear disarmament. But we have had two great problems that have crept up on us, due to our inattention, that now seriously threaten to end our democracy forevermore: the power of corporations, and our bloated military machine. And together these two entities have conspired to rig events and to rig our elections, to turn our country into a warmonger in the service of corporate power. THEY want the world to be an armed camp. Do we? Their weapons matter, because they can kill us all, the way they killed 100,000 innocent Iraqis in one week of "shock and awe" bombing, without a thought, without a hint of remorse. You don't think they can turn that firepower against us? It DOES matter that our country is already an armed camp, with highly sophisticated surveillance, weaponry and PLANS to subdue any rebellion. That matters strategically, and it matters morally, because if you encourage people to go up against overwhelming power, you are inviting a massacre.

The way back to democracy must be a peaceful path, giving the evil, conscienceless leaders who invaded Iraq no excuse to "shock and awe" any more people. It is a long hard road back to democracy. Ask the people of South America, who are well along that peaceful path. They started working on transparent elections about a decade ago. There is even more at stake here, for the corporations. It may take longer. Or it could "happen overnight," as movements sometimes do (or seem to do). And when you achieve your ideals peacefully, then you really have something. Then you ready for the 21st century that many have dreamed of.

[Two Americas]

66. agreed

I am not advocating violence. The popular movements to overthrow tyranny in Eastern Europe were remarkably bloodless.

We should not kid ourselves, though, about this. Violence is ongoing from the rulers under tyrannical regimes. The fact that it is dispersed, and hidden and lied about, does not mean that there is "peace" or non-violence.

One of the prime arguments against the Abolitionists was that they were fomenting violence. Then as now, we need to be careful that we do not ignore the daily and relentless violence by the master against the slave, for fear of the violence that may be done to the master by the slave. They is no equivalence there.

It is easy for people at the center of the global empire, leading
It costs nothing and is easy for American suburbanites and professionals, members of a privileged and gentrified aristocracy, to be "for peace" and non-violence. No one is better protected than they are from the ugly side of life, and American suburbia could not exist without many people somewhere being killed, enslaved and exploited. If our "peace" comes at the price of great violence being done to others, albeit out of our immediate view, that is not much of a peace and is most certainly not non-violent. In some ways, it could be seen as less justifiable morally to have the violence that is required to protect and defend one's own peace and tranquility being done by proxy.

It is luxury to be a relatively privileged American and be "for peace" - and that luxury is won by great violence being done around the world on a daily basis.

[Beetwasher]

68. I Think Electing Obama Was A Significant Step In The Right Direction

and onto that "peaceful path".

Color me naive, but I trust him to at least TRY to really do the right thing. Just look at his humble roots, his life lessons. Look at what he said today about the workers occupying the factory in Chicago:

"Obama on those factory workers occupying their factory in Chicago, demanding their benefits and pay. "When it comes to the situation here in Chicago with the workers who are asking for their benefits and payments they have earned, I think they are absolutely right. What's happening to them is reflective of what's happening across this economy."'

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/247116.php

Yeah, it's just words....for now. But when was the last time you've heard someone in such a position speak so unambiguously in support of the little guy?

[Raksha]

62. Absolutely amazing rant...if that's the right word for it.

Whatever it is, you nailed it. Thank you!!!

[razors edge]

37. Welcome to my world.

I think it was Bartcop who said, If someone makes a mistake that puts money in their pocket, expect them to make that mistake over and over again.

Thats all I see going on here, a game where the powerful pretend to be be hapless victims of their own incompetence as they rake in the cash from the working class taxpayers and pretend to commiserate with rape victim.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

[Dark]

39. So, Gore would have invaded Iraq, warantlessly wiretapped us, ransacked our treasury, destroyed the

middle class and used torture?

Okay...

[Greyhound]

48. He (probably) wouldn't have invaded Iraq.

As for the rest, of course he would have, he was instrumental in preparing this for years.

Citizen Gore has turned out to be pretty cool, politician Gore was just the same as the rest of them. Remember why Nader ran against him in the first place?

[ozone_man]

61. Forget Gore, Clinton is directly responsible.

For reappointing Greenspan and appointing Rubin and Summers to the Fed. This is where the bubble started (the 90's exuberance) that is finally popping. He signed Glass-Steagall into law, which deregulated banking and credit default swaps, and NAFTA, etc., leading to the export of manufacturing jobs overseas.

The lesser of two evils is still evil. I know, it feels good to have a Democrat back in office, but when you look at the corporate economics behind the curtain, it's not much different. Still the same corporate welfare and military industrial complex machinery.

[balantz]

40. "And now for my next trick, just stare into this TV screen."

[bvar22]

41. I generally agree with you, except for the Pendulum analogy.

"The pendulum swings. Toward "us" now, but it will swing back. And then back again."

In the last 1/2 century, the pendulum had been stuck on The Right. It has never approached swinging through The Middle. It has alternated between full on Fascism during the Republicans, and milder Fascism during the Democratic ones. The last piece of legislation that moved this country forward was the Civil Rights Act of 1968 that was signed by LBJ. Aside from that, our "government" has been nothing but a scam for looting the Treasury and Privatizing the Public Commons.

Yes, that includes the Clinton Administration.



Now we got Your Children's Money too !!!
And there is not a fucking thing you can do about it!
Now THAT is "Bi-Partisanship"!
Get Used To It!!!
Hahahahahaha......SUCKERS !

Have you ever played 3-Card-Monty in Times Square or been hustled by a good con at the Carnival?
Same thing.
No Pendulum.

[Breeze54]

42. Then we're all screwed... bend over and crack a smile!!!

:P

[leftofthedial]

45. what do you mean "what if"

Of course it's all bullshit!

There is a class war winding down (we got our asses kicked).

Everything is a show to keep us distracted and docile. We are an obedient herd of cattle.

[PassingFair]

46. Why hasn't anyone thought of this before?

:P

[MadHound]

47. No "what if" about it

Welcome to the two party/same corporate master system of government.

In this democracy they move the deck chairs around a little bit, different names, different places, and put on a good mummer's show of "good cop/bad cop"(I'll leave it to you to figure out which party plays which role) and most of the people are suckered in. Rather than out in the streets demanding better government, we get sucked into a staged political process that drains our energy and anger, redirecting it in a harmless manner.

The powers that be have one overarching fear, that we the people will wake up from this stupor one day and actually go out and seize the power back for ourselves. When we start shaking out major concessions, as we did in the thirties and sixties, then you know we're starting to panic them.

But sadly, between our frenetic lives, our constant struggle just to survive, and a compliant media, we're far, far from those days.

[dixiegrrrrl]

49. May i share what I told my son when he woke up from the dream?

Yep, you are right.
It is all a game.
The question now is: how are you going to handle this reality?
You have many choices.
Try to do the next right thing, usually starting with what is in front of you.
Maybe you can't "make" TPTB compassionate, but you can give to a food bank, or start one,
or start a community program.
Then someone sees you doing this, and they are inspired, and then....

Remember Carlin.
Think of Buddha.
Opposite are sometimes the same thing.

Small quiet acts of compassion often get more results than thousands of words being yelled into the cosmos.

Son was 12 when he woke up. btw.
He's 40 now, doing fine.
I am blessed.

So are you, Skip Intro, for asking the question and daring the answer.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. "Last night, Chuang-tzu dreamed he was a butterfly...

or was it a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang-tzu?" - Chuang-Tzu circa 4th Century BCE

[joshcryer]

54. The fact that you must say "what if" means that you're only halfway to the realization.

Once you have met the realization you can be at ease that at least you are an outsider and your participation is merely whim.

[Karenina]

55. What if?

:rofl: It IS. Now what? :rofl:

[Swede]

57. Neo has just taken the red pill.

And he ain't in Kansas,anymore.

[mudesi]

59. What do you mean "what if"? (nm)

[Berry Cool]

60. Wow, looks like someone really needs to rent "The Truman Show." n/t

[southerncrone]

63. Congratulations. Your eyes are now open. You've put your brain in gear.

Now what to do about it?

That is the question.

[bemildred]

64. And, they are DUMB FUCKS, because they are destroying the country.

They are too stupid to manage the good thing they have successfully. That's how bad it is.

[Two Americas]

67. making out like bandits

The people ruling the country are doing just fine. The country is in great shape - for them.

It is us they don't care about and are destroying - for their own benefit. They are managing that quite well, and have been extraordinarily successful. THAT is how bad it is.

They aren't dumb fucks. We are.

[lunatica]

69. SNAP OUT OF IT!! And here's an Xmas tree that doesn't pretend to be real

So you took the red pill. So what? It doesn't get easier. It actually gets harder, but truer

[Edweird]

70. There is no spoon.

[camera obscura]

71. RON PAUL 2012

Sorry, I thought your post was missing a little something.