How many here do raw food for their pets?

[riverdeep]

(cross post from 'pets' forum)

Came across this interesting website which challenges the conventional wisdom on regular pet foods and was wondering about people who've done something similar:

http://www.drkarenbecker.com/nav_sets_04/set04.htm

(for some reason, it doesn't take you to the raw food diet straight away. please click on 'raw food diets' in the left hand menu)

a sample of the philosophy of this particular vet:

Dogs and cats have consumed raw foods for thousands of years. Some cats and dogs still mouse or hunt today, but the majority of our pets have been raised on lifeless, processed food for the last 6-10 generations. Evolution, or the body’s ability to adapt, can and does occur; but it takes longer than 80 years for it to happen. Since commercial pet foods entered the market our pets have not genetically adapted to the diet, which is very different from the diet they evolved to eat. To argue whether dogs and cats can eat raw food is moot; they have been doing it for thousands of years. They are designed to efficiently and healthfully thrive on living foods. There is no scientific evidence that our pets’ gastrointestinal (GI) tracts have changed or become less resistant over time. There are plenty of comparative anatomical studies demonstrating the biologic parallels of big cats to little cats, dogs to wolves. Painful as it sounds, our pets are still designed to tear, rip, swallow and digest raw flesh. We voluntarily picked predators as companions and must accept them as such! Trying to convert herbivores to carnivores or vice versa is best left to Mother Nature and Father Time; they do a much better job. Feeding your pet incorrectly because you don’t agree with the food source is not fair to the pet. Knowing what each specie’s nutritional requirements are before buying the pet is imperative. Some of us may decide to house rabbits after this lecture, just don’t try to convert them to a meat diet!

Home-prepared diets can be the most or the least nutritious foods you could offer your pet. If the diet is unbalanced it will foster potentially life threatening nutritional deficiencies. If it’s balanced it will add years of healthy living to your pet’s life. I believe no one diet is perfect for every pet. Many pets have unique physiologic needs that a diet should address. Some pets just do better consuming certain foods. Some animals cannot tolerate certain foods. The process of finding out what foods your pet likes and dislikes is part of the process. You can consider the process a burden or an adventure.

[Critters2]

1. The beagle's obedience instructor pushes the BARF diet.

I've fostered enough formerly outdoor cats, and dealt with the worms they got from "raw food", to know I'm fine with my critters eating things that aren't raw.

[riverdeep]

4. ok, this is what the vet has to say, and I'm not vouching for this, merely asking:

This is normally where people ask about Salmonella and E. coli. Many potentially pathogenic (bad) bacteria can be found in the GI tracts of healthy carnivores. Salmonella and E. coli are also found by the millions in normal feces. Why people get concerned over their pets eating raw meat and not get concerned over their pets eating mouthfuls of poop is very strange. Our pets are designed to clean themselves everywhere, they can eat poop and be healthy, they can bury bones and dig them up years later to enjoy without a bacteria problem, without fatal Salmonella poisoning. Why? They were designed to handle bacteria. We were not. There are HUGE physiological differences between our pets and us.

If your pet is sick, I mean really sick and it makes you feel better, you can do a meat wash by adding grapefruit seed extract (10 drops to a sink of water, soak meat 5 minutes). The only time I suggest my patients start off cleaning or lightly cooking meats is if the patient has severe intestinal flora problems due to chronic end stage IBD or intestinal surgery. I can count the number of times I have recommended altering meat and honestly have never had a problem with giving raw meat to my average patients (which means chronically ill/terminal). I have read reports of dogs getting sick while on raw food diets but I have not seen reports demonstrating the food caused the disease.

I'm planning on getting a pet in a few months, and was wondering if this is real or 'fringe'. It seems to make some sense, anyway.

[undeterred]

7. We all have immune systems that can handle bacteria

although a dog's may develop better resistance due to the fact that they are outside and on the ground much of their lives. They smell and taste lots of things to find out about them.

Humans consume bacteria in some amount- our food is cooked and processed and it is not sterile. And people can have different reactions to the same bacteria. In college my roomate got food poisoning, and although we cooked and ate together that day, I was fine.

I have a 7 month old dog and I would not want to handle raw meat in my home. He has a case of whipworms from I don't know where, and as far as I am concerned, this could open the door to more health problems. I don't think he would necessarily get sick, but I am sure he won't get sick on the regular dog food, so why risk it?

[notadmblnd]

102. whip worms are hard to get rid of

because dogs get them from sniffing their own or other animals infected feces. If you treat your dog for whip worms (chronic gas passing is a sign of whip worms)and don't clean up after them; then when they go out and sniff around the yard, they are re-infected.

[undeterred]

108. It was found on a routine fecal-

he had no symptoms. He isn't gassy at all. I have only had him 2 months (he is 7 months old) so I don't know if he had it when I adopted him or contracted it since. Anyway, he gets 3 rounds of treatment for it. I don't have a yard so I have to pick up after him.

If he got it at the dog park, there may be a lot of infected dogs in town, though.

[notadmblnd]

109. dog par would be the place.

if you take him there, don't let him sniff the other poop.

[Michigan-Arizona]

114. Whip worms

My dog had them & I presume it was from her mother. When she had them she to was about 5 to 7 month's old. We kept her always in a fenced yard & I had another dog at the same time who did not get them. One morning she just couldn't walk so my vet gave her a megga dose of something(many year's ago) on a Monday & she was so much better by Wednesday.

[undeterred]

117. Mine was a shelter dog who probably came from a farm

and most puppies that come from working farms have worms. My border collie puppy many years ago had a tapeworm that I did not know about until she shed the segments- but she was from a sheep farm, so it made sense.

I adopted Ollie from a shelter in a rural area in Missouri. I have been told that they get the worms from their mother or from drinking contaminated water or eating feces contaminated with whipwhorm. He doesn't do the latter- eat poop- but he had a life before me, so who knows. I was glad to catch it before he got sick, because he would have eventually. I hope the worms die in the cold winter weather.

[tularetom]

14. Had to laugh - we have one lab we can't let into the house

The first thing he does s head for the cat's litter box and help himself to a few tasty treats.

Actually the other lab will occasionally snack on a tootsie roll or two as well. The vet attributes this to the higher level of protein in cat foods a lot of which is carried through to their poo. The dogs are attracted to the protein.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

21. You don't let your dog is, because he snacks on the litter box?

Why don't you just keep him away from the litter box instead of keeping him outside?

[tularetom]

24. We have five inside kitties so we have four litter boxes

It's almost impossible to keep him away from all the boxes even though we clean them daily. He makes a big mess when he roots through the litter in search of a nice cigar to munch on.

And I don't want to make it seem too harsh. The dog does come in the house once in a while and sometiems even sleeps on the bed with us. but he actually prefers it outside. And it's hard to have two 100 lb dogs in the house at the same time.

[alittlelark]

25. We call it 'cat roca'... all dogs seem to love it.

:puke:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

26. Well, that's different, I've known dogs that prefer it outside

It just made it seem liek that's the reason he lived outside.

We have covered litterboxes with the holes in the top. It definitely slows the dogs down on their munching. You can hear their heads getting stuck, before they get anything.

[SlicerDicer-]

50. Natures Variety dog food shows you that its not fringe

[LostinVA]

92. Evo and California Natural, too

[SlicerDicer-]

115. Evo made my dog sick.. I cant get California though

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

125. Our one cat can't handle the EVO, too much protein

She does great on the Innova (made by the same company). You should give that a shot.

The other cat has IBS and does great on the EVO.

The dogs do good on the EVO, too.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

20. The raw food diet is perfectly safe for dogs and cats

and properly fed, isn't going to cause worms.

It's hell of a lot safer than making a dog or cat vegan.

[flvegan]

43. No it isn't.

[Critters2]

122. Hmmm...my healthy 8 yo vegan dog begs to differ. nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

126. Personally, I think a proper raw food diet is safer

I think dogs can do perfectly fine on a vegetarian diet, like flvegan does with his dogs, but I wouldn't trust a vegan diet for a dog. Personally, I don't think we should hold the same moral standard for pets, as we do for ourselves, especially when it's a diet that the owner doesn't even keep.

I don't think a vegetarian or vegan diet is safe for cats, because they are carnivores.

[hedgehog]

2. Does it count if the dog drags the meat tray out of the trash to chew on the

paper towel they put under the meat?

[undeterred]

8. No, not really.

That's in the category of garbage picking.

[notadmblnd]

104. a few drops of hot sauce in the trash will break that habit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. We are a bird family over here

the common diet given to exotic parrots is seeds, perhaps some fruit

Our nanday was dying from starvation

These days they eat people food, except avocado and chocolate.

Anybody care to ask how energetic the three birds are? Hell, they eat human grade cereal, meat, veggies, fruit, oh they beg for steak and bananas

And they are healthy as oxes

[Mari333]

11. yes, yes

my parrot eats chicken, turkey, broccoli, grapes, scrambled eggs, peanuts, bananas, pasta, bread, and when i am cooking she screaaaaaaaaams for food. she only gets what is good for her, but I have given her a frito from time to time.
shes been with me for years and has the run of the house. the cats are terrified of her.
shes healthy as can be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Ah the beak scrubber

kookie loves broccoli, good to clean the beak and yummy.

He even begs for chile rellenos, never mind he NEVER takes more than one bite... even when they are perfectly deveined

I know better not to give him a piece... or he will not shut up

Meal time is done with birds

Breakfast is a waffle, they share between the three

[Inuca]

87. You have a parrot and cats?

and it is free in the house? Can you please give some more details (om me if you prefer)? I have 2 cats (and two dogs, one inside, one mostly outside except at night) and have always dreamed of a parrot but did not know about the cats + I hate the idea of keeping it in a cage all the time.

[TwilightGardener]

106. I have three cats, two dogs and a bird, and I try to let the bird out for a little

while every day--but I definitely have to round up those kittehs or put them outside. Two of my cats have no real interest in the bird, my dogs don't care about her, and one of my cats is OBSESSED with the bird--however, I won't take a chance, so they all get locked up while she's out flying around (I left her wings unclipped so that she can escape in case we have a kitty who shows up by surprise--like when my kids let them out of the bedroom without realizing the bird is out). I feel guilty that she's in her cage a lot, so I move her cage around to different rooms/windows so that she can have different views and feel like she's with her "flock". She seems pretty happy, overall.

[Inuca]

110. What kind of bird? n/t

[TwilightGardener]

116. Cockatiel. They're a little cheaper than other parrots, and IMO, not as

"bitey" or aggressive as parakeets, although they still bite (all parrot-type birds do, I guess). I got mine from PetCo 4 years ago, and I selected her based on the fact that she seemed the most interested in people, and also didn't bite as hard as the others, LOL! She's been healthy and well-adjusted, likes to sit on my shoulder and "snuggle" (she'll "preen" my face) and have her head scritched. They are squawky, though--they'll let you know if they're not getting enough attention. And cockatiels are about the only type of parrot that shed a dandruffy sort of material, especially when they molt, so they generate more dust than other birds.

[Inuca]

120. Thanks for the info wd

I'll keep thinking about it, though for the time being I have to work on my husband who says that two dogs and two cats are enough :-) though he loves animals as much as I do.

[TwilightGardener]

121. Yep--my husband said that one dog was enough, a while back.

Then two dogs became more than enough. Then a cat, then another cat, then a bird, then one more cat. Poor guy had had "enough pets" at one dog, but he's a patient guy :) ...though he has drawn the absolute line on any more pets of late.

[riverdeep]

32. I don't know jack about birds, and am not planning on one for my pet,

although I dig them. Your comment did bring up this thought the vet had from another section of the website:

"Think about what your bird would and would not be eating in the wild. Your bird’s diet would probably contain fresh foods, seeds and nuts. Your bird would not be preying on chickens or nursing from a dairy cow. My list of “no no’s” for birds includes meat, dairy, fried foods and over-processed people foods (junk food). If you want to give your bird more protein, enrich their diet with legumes or tofu. Birds should not consume dairy. They are not mammals and do not nurse as infants. Their bodies do not produce lactase, the enzyme necessary to break down and process lactose, or milk sugar. Do not stress your bird’s pancreas by feeding dairy products. If you are concerned about calcium, offer cuttlebone, or feed calcium-rich veggies (black beans, navy beans, soybeans, spinach, mustard greens, tofu, bok choy, turnip greens, almonds, broccoli and kale).

“But my bird likes french fries,” I’m told quite regularly. When you allow your bird’s taste buds to become adapted to the average American diet (which is loaded with fat, salt and sugar), your bird may have difficulty accepting the healthy choices you are offering. Salt, fat and sugar are just as addicting to your bird as they are to you. Do not offer unhealthy foods to your birds, you are only hurting them in the long run."

edit: for grammer

[riverdeep]

55. This does assume you're not keeping an eagle or owl or some such as the pet.

;)

[pitohui]

99. even so it's not quite correct, see my other post 98 below EOM

,

[Mojorabbit]

60. Seeds are not a healthy diet for a parrot

Mine eat a pelleted diet augmented by veggies, fruit, nuts, seeds, and scrambled eggs, mealworms, and chicken meat.

[pitohui]

98. well there are 300 species of parrot, plus many other types of birds

that's the problem w. all of these generalities

there are parrot species that do best and prefer a lean diet because they are desert species -- and two very popular species, budgies and cockatiels fall in that group -- in my humble view it is cruelty to keep these guys on a pellet diet, seed is fine for them

of course there are many parrot species from lush, rainforest area where they would never be dependent on a dry seed diet but would have something fresh pretty much available all the time

another poster (who confessed to owning no birds) quoted a long article from a vet claiming parrots should never eat meat, which is nonsense, some parrots do require a higher calcium/protein diet, i'm going to presume that there is a much higher level of insects in their wild diet (your mealworms are a good idea) but well-cooked chicken and turkey is a fine substitute -- the long lifespan of my parrots is all the proof i need

also while it's true that all birds are lactose intolerant and can't digest whole milk -- hard cheese doesn't contain lactose, which is why humans with lactose intolerance can eat and digest hard cheese -- calcium from greens is not always well absorbed unless the bird spends some time with access to natural sunlight -- if your bird is always indoors, i would be inclined to offer cheese if the bird wants it -- a lot of birds are big fans of italian food per repeated surveys at bird talk magazine over the years and i honestly think the cheese might be part of the reason

there are some species that may need much more calcium than others -- african greys spring to mind -- how much of our issues with greys come from not providing the right amt of calcium/sunlight, i do wonder?

you just can't generalize too much with birds, or even parrots, they are too varied in my humble view

[TwilightGardener]

103. I have a cockatiel, and I feed her a mixture of pellets and seed, with

a side of carrots, broccoli, and human cereal (mini-wheats, bran flakes, Cheerios, whatever we've got). I think what you say about being a desert dweller is true--she really isn't into fruit or vegetables all that much. Carrots and broccoli are all she seems to want, she's rejected spinach, bananas, strawberries, pretty much anything else I've given her vegetation-wise. I always thought birds should love the hell out of fruits and veggies and berries, and now I wonder if she's just not programmed to appreciate that stuff. She is ecstatic over seed, however.

[pitohui]

105. yes it's tough to get cockatiels to eat a varied diet

from the sound of it you are doing all that can be done -- i wouldn't think it's realistic to expect much more -- it's the way of their people :-)

[Mojorabbit]

123. I have one too

and his diet is primarily seeds with sides of veggies. He is 20 years old. His fav is bean sprouts as a snack. My african grey eats just about anything with no fuss.

[BrklynLiberal]

5. I know several people who have their dogs on the raw diet and their dogs

are thriving on it.
I know it is controversial, and some people think it is deadly. But in some cases it seems to improve the health of the pets that go on it.
The main reason that I have not tried it yet is primarily laziness. There is a lot of time and care that must be dedicated to a raw diet.
I buy the highest quality canned and kibble food..and have been very lucky that my dogs and cats have remained healthy and happy, as well as living long lives.

[riverdeep]

27. "I know it is controversial..."

And that's really the salient point here, I suppose. Is there any substantive info that swings the controversy in either direction?

[BrklynLiberal]

33. I know several people who have used it successfully.

I do not know anyone who did not have success with it.
There are people who claim there are problems with raw meat but all the responses to that would satisfy me.
I know there are places where you can get the meat frozen, and thereby avoid some of the problems.

I have never heard anyone say that the actual diet was bad for the pets. They were just worried about the sanitary/bacteria situation with the raw food.

[XemaSab]

54. Cooking the meat kills the bacteria

freezing the meat does NOT kill the bacteria.

[tularetom]

6. When I clean a fish or a bird I give the organs to one of our outside cats

They seem to like it and it's a good way to get rid of the guts.

If I were to throw it in the trash can it would attract some unwanted scavengers.

[DonEBrook]

9. When we bring in a mess of fish (freshwater lake) we save a couple for the kitty and

our one dog that loves raw fish. The other 2 doggies don't much care for it ... so they get regular dogfood from the can and bag.
:D
We pretty much give each of them what they like. So far they are not aware of t-bone steaks, however. :D

[riverdeep]

70. Ok, well here's the only thing I have with that:

you're assuming that what an animal will love and what is actually 'good' for them is the same thing, and that's not always the case. I know that dogs will sometimes eat chocolate, love the experience, but then die from it.

Most of the time what evolution has taught them to love and what is good for them is the same thing, but not always. My interest is in determining the difference.

[riverdeep]

10. Maybe I should also add an experience I had.

My parents had a dog (a cross of newfie and collie we think), and I went over there all the time to walk her because they a) were incredibly sedentary and b) thought that moving her in any way made her feel bad. This dog was the most fantastic dog I had ever encountered, although I suppose that's what most dog owner's, or adopter's, feel. When they first got her, she was energetic, happy, no behavioral problems, healthy and so athletic, it was unreal. But I saw her bowel movements, as I was walking her, and I don't know how to put this, but they just didn't seem right. She soon became a problem dog, with skin diseases and listlessness and eventually saw mobility with the same horror that my parents viewed it.

The exercise and activity issue aside, I just wonder how she would have done on something like this, would it have made a difference?

[Warpy]

12. My fifteen year old cat is shockingly healthy

eating that lifeless, processed kibble for the last 14 years. She likes it. Her teeth are perfect. Her coat is shiny.

I tried getting her some raw chicken livers when I first got her. She growled at them for 3 hours. The tom cat finally ate part of one and then made the "bury it" sign at the bowl. I counted the experiment a dismal failure and didn't repeat it.

The tom cat lived to the ripe old age of 17 on nothing but lifeless kibble.

I'm not fixing the cat's diet because it aint broke.

I know well intentioned vegans who tried to put their cats on a vegetarian diet and nearly killed them.

I'll stick to the cat food companies. They seem to know what they're doing, the proof being two long lived and healthy kitties.

[riverdeep]

17. "I know well intentioned vegans who tried to put their cats on a vegetarian diet"

Well, this is about the opposite of a those vegan diets as you can get. She definitely doesn't recommend grains at all, for example.

[Warpy]

22. I know, it's a decent article

Honestly, I wanted to slap those sweet, clueless people into the middle of next week. I did restrain myself while I talked about natural foods for cats through clenched teeth and how species differences were so profound that some foods that were ambrosia to us were poison to the poor kitty and vice versa.

Most of them did listen, but you could tell their hearts weren't into getting the poor cat some MEAT or at least some stinky kibble that at least looked vegetarian.

[riverdeep]

59. "some foods that were ambrosia to us were poison to the poor kitty and vice versa"

One of the surprising ones was that onions are bad for dogs and cats. I'm just so glad to be an omnivore. I couldn't live without onions. Onions are one of my pleasure foods.

[Warpy]

111. Same here, and my old kitty Miss Marigold Featherbrain

loved onions. I had to pick them out of any human food I gave her and even then, I made sure she only got a taste of the leftover on top of her kibble.

Take away onions and garlic and I'll start fasting.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

23. And, I've seen cats die because of the cat food companies

Remember the pet food recall?

Personally, I think either a very high-end (i.e. based on the raw food diet) or the raw food diet is the best way to go for pets.

I'd never give my pets supermarket shit.

[Mari333]

13. I feed the dogs and cats bags of healthy food thats not from stores

and they get tuna,which they all like. so far they are all healthy. I occasionally give the dog cooked meat, even tho I am a vegan, he is a dog, and I try to mix some veggies in with his meat. the vet told me its good for him.
I wouldnt give them raw meat, thats just me.

[flvegan]

15. I find it funny that folks get "nutritionist" for their pets, yet know shit about feeding themselves

And just from the posted blurb, Dr. Becker sounds largely like a quack.

[riverdeep]

18. Can you elaborate?

I want to know what parts, or the entirety, are pseudoscience. I know from your posts you work with animals so it would be really great to hear.

[flvegan]

39. The basis is crap.

First off, dogs aren't carnivores. They're omnivores. Obligate, at best. Secondly, the "science" this is based upon doesn't take into account that the raw meat fed to pets today isn't the equivalent of what animals may have been hunted by a feline or canine "centuries ago". I wouldn't feed that shit to my dogs any more than I'd eat it raw myself.

Personally, my rescue runs on a vegetarian diet, and they thrive at an almost legendary level. I'm not saying don't give your pets meat or meat-based food, but what I'm saying is don't feed your pet anything that you wouldn't feel safe eating yourself.

[riverdeep]

42. Okay, so dogs aren't strictly carnivores.

Would you say that cats are? And would dogs thrive, rather than survive, on a greater level of meat than is provided by the typical processed pet food industry?

[flvegan]

44. Cats are carnivores, yes.

However, I've known vegan cats. It's a lot of work, and I don't really support the science behind it because there haven't been a lot of decent tests. I'd not have a vegan cat.

Would dogs thrive on a more human-esque meat-based diet than they would on IAMS? Absolutely. But that means buying proper cuts of meat, cooking properly and safely and serving with some veggies, etc. The issue here is the raw food in regards to meat.

Even if I ate meat, I'd not feed my dogs anything I'd not eat myself. I mean that by safety standards, not by taste. Kibble tastes like shit.

[riverdeep]

46. Once again, thanks for your reply, and the work that you do.

But part of what I get from this vet, is that our pets really aren't quite like us, exactly. This part here, for ex.

"There are HUGE physiological differences between our pets and us."

(from post #4)

So food that might destroy us, wouldn't destroy our pets. Although, healthy food is always desirable, what does 'healthy' mean to a dog? Can they handle food that's been sitting in the garbage while we can't? I'm with you though, on these matters. I'd rather play it safe. I'd not give something to a pet that I'd not eat myself, if I can at all help it.

She mentions that our GI tracts our severely dissimilar. That those who are primarily centered towards carnivorism, have ones that are shorter and geared more to handle the bacteria and such that can result from eating flesh. She also gives the example of dogs burying bones and digging them up months and even years later and suffering no ill effects.

[flvegan]

48. Ask that vet

what feeding a dog McDonalds for 30 days solid would do.

SuperSize My Dog, anyone?

Different, yes. Reaction to shit? Not so much.

[riverdeep]

53. But she isn't really advocating feeding 'junk food',

she believes Mcd's is unhealthy for anyone or anything.

[flvegan]

57. She's advocating feeding shit that humans shouldn't eat.

That's the point. Would you gnaw on a raw turkey neckbone?

Sadly, many vets are like doctors and know shit about nutrition. They have infinite, invaluable experience otherwise, but oftentimes this is the one area many fall short. I hate it, but all to often they fall into either the Pottenger or the Science Diet camps.

Damn, I swore I'd not mention Pottenger.

[riverdeep]

63. Or unhealthy for anyone who doesn't own stock w/McDonalds's corp., anyway. n/t

[notadmblnd]

107. My cat has a sweet tooth. She likes icecream and whipped cream along with the

occasional piece of potato chip. I think it's the salt in the chips that she wants and she never has more than a nibble. She absolutely hates fish and turkey, but loves an occasional bite of porkchop.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

19. I would love to do a raw food diet for the pets

I don't have the freezer space, though, so I feed them EVO with some other stuff thrown. It's as close as I can get to raw without feeding raw.

[Voice for Peace]

28. I used the BARF diet for my dog for a few years

till the day she died. Unfortunately her health was already failing by the time I started her on the diet -- but I suspect a combination of that food and a few herbs I supplemented with extended her life and her quality of life. She died a very gentle natural death at home. She had cancer throughout her body, but lived about two years longer than the vet predicted, and never suffered significantly. She only lost control of her legs on the very last day, until then was able to go outside if only for a short time. I'm sure the diet was a good thing for her, and she loved it.

My cats, on the other hand, won't eat the raw food. I could probably switch if I didn't give them anything else, I think they'd get used to it.

[Ian David]

29. Well, I was hoping for an excuse to post this photo I just took today...

Caviar...

For dogs.

I'm series!




Still, it's probably better than...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. I'd get my dog the salmon/caviar dog food

He loves fish, and he gets canned food, as a treat on his herding days, because he burns up a lot of calories doing that.

At $1.39, it's no more expensive than the canned food he gets now.

[FarCenter]

30. A diet of meat is bad for a cat or dog

Notice that when a cat eats a bird or mouse, or a dog eats a rabbit or squirrel, they eat the guts first.

That is the most nutritous part of the prey animal, and the organ meats and their contents provide vitamins and minerals that the muscle tissue does not.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

40. The raw food diet incorporates organ meats and some veggies, eggs etc, plus some supplements

It's not just giving them raw hamburger.

[riverdeep]

41. She accounts for that.

"Beef, lamb, fish, poultry. Some people hunt and provide deer, elk, rabbit, pheasant, etc. The “meat” category also includes a small amount of organs (heart, kidney, liver). Organ meats are nutrient dense and are not needed in high quantities. Muscle meats make up about 10-20 % of the diet for both dogs and cats."

In other words, what you're referring to as meat (i.e. muscle meat), isn't the only thing they should be eating, according to her.

[InvisibleTouch]

31. I did it intensively a few years ago...

...when I only had 2 dogs. Started it with my first show dog, and was very conscientious about it - to the extent that I pre-prepared her meals in separate portions and took them with us in a great big cooler when we traveled. When I'd stop at friends' homes, I'd stash those containers of raw beef, cooked brown rice, and veggies in their refrigerators (my friends were very tolerant :) ). Sure, it was more work, but it was worth it. This same dog, whom I've switched to "premium" kibble in the intervening years, will sometimes go off her food completely until I give her real food again - i.e. raw/homecooked. She knows what's good for her!

The other dog I had at the time, an elderly Pom, had been having epileptic seizures for years until I switched him to raw/homecooked also. He never had another seizure.

One of my mama dog's sons developed skin allergies in his new home, possibly from the climate or just as an allergy to a common pet food ingredient. (That's very common. Recurrent ear infections can also be allergies to commercial food ingredients.) Since his owner switched him to raw, he's shown tremendous improvement.

Currently I have 8 dogs. The time factor and the cost factor has been prohibitive, to maintain a raw diet for all of them, so I try to stick to good-quality kibble with a whole meat source as the first ingredient. However, there was a thread here just tonight about another recall, and the price of the really high-quality stuff has gone up considerably in the last year. And I won't feed them the cheap supermarket junk brands that consist mostly of "ground yellow corn." I'm thinking it would cost about the same to go back to raw, plus be a lot healthier. Ultimately the money spent on a good diet is money not spent at the vet's with degenerative illnesses, not to mention sparing my animals much pain and suffering.

So, I definitely recommend raw/homecooked, but it does take a little more research, time, and attention to get it right. Remember that if you're feeding raw meat but not bones, you must add a supplemental calcium source, or else the body will remove calcium from your pet's own bones. I always used ground eggshell, but I'm going to try bones in the future. My mama dog enjoys a raw turkey neck now and again, for instance, and she doesn't have any problems with the bones.

My very favorite book on the subject, rife with recipes and nutritional contents of various foods, is this one:

Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats

[BrklynLiberal]

35. That is exactly what I say. I spend the money on excellent food instead of the vet.

Ultimately the money spent on a good diet is money not spent at the vet's with degenerative illnesses, not to mention sparing my animals much pain and suffering.

[riverdeep]

45. Thanks for your reply.

She definitely does include bones as a big part of the diet, although stresses that it must not be cooked, due to the choking factor of cooked vs. raw bone:

"Bone is also required for nutrition. Most people use poultry bones (wings, back and necks) although other types of bone can be used (lamb bones, ox tails). I do not feed raw rabbit or pork. Many people feed these meats but on very rare occasions they can contain parasites that can be harmful to pets. Chicken necks are a good place to start for small dogs and cats. Medium to large dogs can start with turkey necks. For healthy dogs, bony meats make up about 50-60% of the diet. For cats, it usually constitutes 70-80% of the diet (including the fat on the meat)."

[Holly_Hobby]

34. I feed my dogs raw prey model

80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organ. I don't strive for those percentages every day, but over time.

My dogs weigh 60 lbs. Today, I fed 1/2 turkey neck, a chunk of beef chuck roast, a chunk of pork butt roast, a little liver and a little kidney. Tomorrow, they're getting gutted and skinned rabbit and an egg. No grains, fruits or veggies.

I switched because one of my dogs developed seizures. Instead of putting him on the heavy duty meds, my vet suggested a raw diet (he's from Alaska and a lot of his clients were sled dogs who eat raw meat and fish). So instead of my dog having one seizure per week, he now only has one per year. My vet is a raw food advocate and doesn't sell any kind of food at all in his practice.

The only supplement I use is salmon oil for the omega 3's. Our feed lot animals aren't being fed properly either, so their meat is heavy in omega 6's and deficient in omega 3.

My dogs are mellower and their coats are thick and soft. Their teeth are white and clean, and their breath doesn't smell bad. No doggie odor when wet. A lot less shedding.

I freeze all meat for 30 days at -2 degrees to kill parasites. I don't worry about germs harming them, they have a short digestive tract compared to ours. I clean up with vinegar and water. It's been over 2 years and no one has been sick, including the dogs or my husband.

My dogs' blood work is normal, no parasites and no chronic illness. The meat has changed them from alkaline (from carbs) to acid, so they don't get fleas anymore, and mosquitoes don't bother them either.

I buy in bulk from a co-op and it's cheaper than the premium kibble by about $20/month for 4 60lb. dogs. I have a separate freezer and feed them outside.

I've got a bunch of free venison coming next week. I advertised on Craig's list and I found a hunter cleaning out his freezer from last year willing to give it to me. I will never feed my dogs processed food ever again.

The amount of their stool is about half of what it was on kibble. Because they use what they eat now, instead of garbage in, garbage out.

I belong to a list of over 11,000 raw feeders, including vets and vet techs, and the number is growing every day. I didn't believe it would work for my epileptic dog, but it did. I was a tough sell on raw, being brainwashed to think that only processed food could be "balanced". Bah. How did dogs survive before Purina? My grandparents and great grandparents always fed their dogs table scraps and scraps from their slaughters (yes, I'm old). They never had to go to a vet except for the rare injury.

[BrklynLiberal]

36. I have heard MANY stories of the raw diet putting an end to seizures.

Sure makes on wonder if something in dogfood is responsible for starting the seizures in those that may be predisposed.

[Holly_Hobby]

93. I don't know the answer to that question

All I have is my story. In Sept. '06, my 2 y.o. Collie started having seizures once/week. I started raw food Nov. '06. He didn't have another seizure until Jan. '07 and one March '08, none since.

[riverdeep]

47. Two points:

"I freeze all meat for 30 days at -2 degrees to kill parasites."

Does this actually kill parasites, or merely make them temporarily immobile? I know there are parasites that can survive (and a few that can remain active) at very low temps.

"The amount of their stool is about half of what it was on kibble."

This is kind of what I was trying to get at with an earlier post. My previous dogs stools didn't seem 'normal', but I didn't really know what normal was supposed to be.

[Holly_Hobby]

94. I'll be happy to try to answer your questions

I use mostly USDA inspected meats. Feed lot animals are fed indoors, have been since the '70's. The chance of parasites in this meat is very small. Freezing does kill parasites, if frozen long enough at a low enough temperature. Wild meat included.

BTW, I do not feed chicken at all. Chicken is by FAR the dirtiest and most contaminated meat out there.

I don't know what "normal" stool is either, but I can definitely tell the difference between kibble and raw. Raw food stool dries to powdery white chunks within a day and can easily be picked up. My 60 lb. dogs leave a small pile of jelly bean sized stool about every day and a half to every two days. There is very little odor. Sorry for being so graphic.

[riverdeep]

52. I dont mean to harp on you here,

but when you say this:

"They never had to go to a vet except for the rare injury."

how do you really know that? Could it also be that they just simply didn't take injured or diseased animals to the vet as people do today?

[Holly_Hobby]

95. I'm repeating what my mother has told me

about how dogs and cats were treated on my grandparents' and great grandparents' farms.

My mom said the vet was there for the horses and cows. She only remembers one vet visit for the dog, when he was kicked by a one of the other animals. They weren't pets, they had jobs.

The dogs and cats lived long lives, compared to today's standards, unless they were severely injured. If they no longer could do their job around the farm, or in the case of severe injury, they were shot and buried. My mom remembers one shepherd type dog they had lived to be 17 or 18 and did his job until he just dropped dead one day.

She doesn't remember if the dogs and cats were ever vaccinated.

I think the diet and lack of poisons and pollution kept them healthy, but it's just my opinion. They had jobs to keep their minds busy.

Cats lived on mice and raw milk, and whatever birds they could catch.

There were farms in my family until the late '60's.

Again, this is just my mom's recollections. All I can tell you is my dog's seizures have stopped.

[Mojorabbit]

61. I don't believe food

will change one from acid or base. We as mammals survive within a narrow acid base balance. Out of those parameters we die without medical intervention.

[Holly_Hobby]

96. I have no medical experience whatsoever....

how would you explain the lack of fleas and mosquitoes since changing diets? Could it be they smell differently?

I do remember reading about acid/alkaline, but my links died with my last laptop.

Here's another story. We adopted a rescue dog about a year ago. A lot of his fur was gone on his tail and on his back above the tail from flea bites. He had flea dirt behind his ears when we got him (bad rescue group). This year, he didn't have even one flea. The only difference is his diet. I have no proof except what I see or don't see.

My prior pack of dogs always had fleas, every year. This pack did too, until their diet was changed.

I could watch mosquitoes land on their snouts prior to diet change.

[wolfgangmo]

38. I have my last surviving cat on a raw food diet.

But it is one that is supplemented and also contains organ meat. I make it up in big batches, put it in smaller containers and then freeze them. It takes me less than 1/2 hour to prep and freeze about 3 to 4 weeks food because I have my butcher cut up the meat for me. I just dump, mix and go.

FYI I use a raw food supplement mix, vet formulated, and a little more updated than the pitcairn diets, called Feline Instinct.

Our both cats lived healthily until age 17 and one of them is still going. They had health problems on science diet until our vet told us to stop using that "shit."

[ZombieHorde]

49. My wife and I used to have pet spiders and scorpians...

we fed them live crickets. Does that count as raw food?

[XemaSab]

51. I don't do raw food

but I do homemade food.

[agincourt]

56. My wife put our Dobermans on a raw food diet.

They primarily ate chicken hindquarters along with some greens. She had them on it for 3 years of their life. The Dobermans ate the uncooked chicken bones and all. They just crunched away. They liked it. After my wife left I put them back on dogfood. I just didn't have time to prepare their meals. Which was better? I don't know, all I know is that on the raw food they were in no worse shape then they were before.

[Dover]

58. I do a combination of raw with high quality canned and a little kibble

I'll give my cats chicken livers once a week which they love. The rest of the time they
get a very good quality canned with no grains, etc.

Same with the dog. I'll buy and prepare game meats and bones that I give him fairly often.
And the rest of the time I serve him canned game meats from a good company.

I also supplement both with turmeric, seaweed mix and salmon oil.
No flea problems or health issues so far.

[riverdeep]

64. Turmeric!!!

Fantastic. Something I and my future critters can agree on. BTW, what does the turmeric provide?

[Dover]

66. Yeah it seems to be pretty common in pet supplements/health remedies

and is a human supplement too! I take it daily and sprinkle it on the pet's food.

Try googling it. I add just a little goats milk or chicken broth to their food too.

http://www.petspourri.com/herbs09.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=MU3mjryk7NwC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=pets,+dog,cat,+turmeric&source=web&ots=iWEIEYSl0Z&sig=WJ3z8aiN6FDebvvb9X2gnb30t_w&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

[riverdeep]

67. Ok. I did that, and it's not exactly reassuring.

Your own first website points to turmeric benefiting cancer:

"In cancer
If your pet's had some malignancies and has been operated upon, you can feed turmeric everyday. Add quarter teaspoon of turmeric to your pet's food everyday. There are good chances that the malignancies will not reappear again."

Seriously?

It probably wouldn't hurt anything, if their digestive systems are similar, but that it helps cure cancer? Well, I don't think so.

[Dover]

73. Many of the turmeric studies for humans have been done on animals.

But don't bother researching it on my account.

[riverdeep]

76. Huh? What does that mean?

You're saying it's legit? That turmeric CURES cancer? Why wouldn't doctors have told the world about this? They also have relatives close to them (or are them) afflicted with cancer.

[Dover]

78. Where does it say "cure"?

In conjunction WITH conventional surgical tumor removal, I believe studies have shown that turmeric helps prevent regrowth.
I don't think that suggests it's a 'cure' per se, as you seem prone to interpret it.

I think there have been many anecdotal 'cures' reported by pet owners
who have taken matters into their own hands, but clinically I don't know that anyone is quite
ready to utter the 'c' word for cancer. However it's getting pretty close as a treatment alone or in conjunction with other medicinals. And certainly it is a proven preventative for cancer and many other things.

Part of the problem with clinical studies is that turmeric is not 'patentable' which has been
a deterent for getting pharmaceutical companies and institutions to spend the money on studies.

But do browse these studies if you're interested.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051015091008.htm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=veterinary+medicine%2C+turmeric%2C+cancer+studies&btnG=Search

At any rate, I thinks it's an excellent supplement for man and beast alike.

[crazylikafox]

101. raw food here. The commercial frozen kind found in natural pet food stores.

It's expensive, but my dog & cat are both very small, so they don't eat much. The cat's major skin problems cleared up immediately. Both animals are very healthy.

[riverdeep]

68. But as to your other things

seaweed mix, I'm assuming it provides calcium and the salmon oil provides omega-3 fatty acids?

Regardless, I'll remain a proponent of turmeric because it tastes remarkable!

edit: I could go so far as to say it (turmeric) might have a part to play in preventing cancer, but to cure it? I can't go there right now.

[xloadiex]

62. Anyone watch Dirty Jobs?

One of the episodes this season was where he goes to a BARF processor. He said the smell of the rotting meat and green tripe was awful. The only way they tested the green tripe was by smell. If it smelled REALLY bad, they didn't ship it. The food, the way it was handled and stored, did not look like something I would want to feed my dogs. Maybe someone can find a link to this episode? I know it's season 5,episode 4.

[riverdeep]

65. Ok, you're about the fourth person that's mentioned this 'BARF' diet thing,

So, for those like me, who are confused (and wonder about the strange word choice):

"The "BARF" diet, an acronym for Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones And Raw Food was created by Australian veterinary surgeon Dr Ian Billinghurst. A typical BARF diet is made up of 60-80% of raw meaty bones(RMB), that is bones with about 50% meat,<10>(e.g. chicken neck, back and wings) and 20-40% of fruits and vegetables, offal, meat, eggs, or dairy foods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_feeding

[buzzycrumbhunger]

69. I feed homemade

After my brother's dog almost died from tainted commercial food, I scrapped the Eukanuba and started making my own food--largely raw lamb, but also cooked chicken (easier to get the bones out), with lamb shanks as the occasional treat (big joke in our family because we don't eat the stuff ourselves). Found Dr. Pitcairn and haven't looked back. Most of the recipes are more like porridge with meat and veggies for good measure, but there are complete recipes without meat. The cat food is more predominantly meat since they need it, and there are lots of treat recipes, too. I have to say my dog is much more energetic and healthy now, and eats much less food than the commercial, which is apparently largely filler. I think that's what's so horrible about commercial foods--even the expensive ones rely on so much crap (beaks, feathers, and crap shoveled off the floor that no one in their right mind would eat, plus "vegetable matter" that includes cheap grain, sawdust, and veggie pulp left over from juicing) that there's lousy food value for the quantity eaten. The book, BTW, also includes natural remedies, so is a good all-around reference.

Dogs can eat crap that's been buried for ages with no ill effects, so I'm not sure how a raw diet is supposed to be harmful to them. Their digestive tracts are set up to deal with crud. In the wild, all the meat they'd eat would be raw--and they're naturally omnivores. I've seen studies that show that cancer cells thrive on cooked food and die off on raw food, so theoretically, if people are going to eat meat, we should be eating it raw, too. :P

[riverdeep]

71. This part interests me so much,

"even the expensive ones rely on so much crap (beaks, feathers, and crap shoveled off the floor that no one in their right mind would eat, plus "vegetable matter" that includes cheap grain, sawdust, and veggie pulp left over from juicing)"

What I'm sensing is that 'leftovers' aren't really all created equal. There certainly aren't things that we would eat, but because we wouldn't eat feathers does that mean a cat wouldn't benefit from eating them? Do these undesirables provide something that's actually essential to our pets? Other things in the bargain bin, of course, no animal should be eating, like sawdust.

[buzzycrumbhunger]

75. You know there's sawdust in commercial bread?

Especially those lovely "whole grain" products--they call it "cellulose." Maybe they figure it's safe because we eat nuts, which are pretty much tree embryos, but I'm sure it's more likely motivated because it's cheap filler.

I don't know that I've seen cats (or dogs) eat feathers specifically. When you find a dead bird in the yard, it's usually just the feathers and head left behind. As to what they could provide, I suppose that would be largely keratin, so maybe not the most unhealthy thing to eat, just pokey and unfriendly. We're told not to give our dogs chicken bones because they can splinter and cause choking and digestive problems and I'd think major feathers would be similar.

I think you might find a lot of answers in this ebook (it's free), which I recall lists a lot of what's in commercial pet foods. Of course, the woman being interviewed represents a natural pet food manufacturer, but there's some good info. It's pretty shocking what they put in pet food today--including road kill and euthanized pets. Lots of foods are created to appeal to our sensibilities (i.e. food colorings, high-fructose corn syrup), not our pets'.

[riverdeep]

77. This vet specifically says NOT to feed your pets COOKED bones,

precisely of the choking hazard. Supposedly, uncooked bones don't provide this same hazard.

The idea that we feed our pets based on what WE feel is appealing is interesting.

[bean fidhleir]

72. My vet told me "DON'T", if I wanted my cats to live out their maximum lifespans.

Cats and dogs CAN "tolerate" the contaminations, but it takes a little bit extra out of them every time they must. So the cat who would live 16 or 18 years on a cooked diet lives only 10 or 12 on a raw one.

I felt I'd rather have their company for those extra years.

[riverdeep]

74. That's incredible.

Your vet then, has some proof that this vet (in OP) is full of it? Even if it takes some time, please post this info, or just PM me, please.

[bean fidhleir]

83. That was from a conversation I had around 1979

That vet at the time was in his late 70s and only coming in a few times a week to help out (his kids and grandkids had the practice by then). I thought he was very skillful and that he actually cared about his patients (something I've found is not always true!) so I always tried to bring in my mob on a day when he was available. So what follows is a paraphrase from memory:

"If you want each of your cats to live the longest life he or she can, feed them a variety of meats including organ meats and eggs that you buy at the market and cook yourself. You can sprinkle on some brewer's yeast and bone meal or ground-up calcium pill too.

The cats I've had through here in my time who've been fed commercial cat food or meat from hunting and fishing always seemed healthy enough, but most of them seemed to die young, too. I'm pretty sure they were just being stressed by having to deal with the floor-sweepings nature of the commercial stuff, or the toxins and parasites from the hunted stuff.

No matter whether you're a human or a cat, constant stress wears you out early, and people forget when they talk about giving their friends a "natural" diet that the "natural" lifespan of a cat out in the wild who's eating that "natural" diet is a lot less than 10 years."

Three of the four "office cats" were 16 or over, and all were very sleek and healthy.

[riverdeep]

89. forgive me if I understand, but

it seems as if you're saying that the life style of the cat had as much to do with it as the diet, if not more.

No doubt though, that 'natural' can involve harshness as well as nurturance.

[bean fidhleir]

97. That wasn't what I got from what he said, though perhaps I should have.

What I got from it was that "natural" is not automatically better than "unnatural" (the point he made about cats in the wild) and that diet had made a clinically-noticeable difference to the longevity of the loved, well-treated cats he had seen in his practice over at least 50 years (probably more than 50, since he had inherited the practice from his parents).

[shadowknows69]

79. SInce the tainted dog food of a couple years ago

Something we're pretty certain took our first furry friend from us. We've been cooking for our new dog. A mixture of rice, ground turkey and canned carrots. She loves it

[riverdeep]

85. My reply to this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4602022&mesg_id=4603054

"you're assuming that what an animal will love and what is actually 'good' for them is the same thing, and that's not always the case. I know that dogs will sometimes eat chocolate, love the experience, but then die from it."

What 'she loves' and what's good, is it the same? That's our job as oh so terribly imperfect caregivers to find out, isn't it? I don't mean to be harsh, but there's a living thing involved here, and from my oh very limited knowledge from this website, at least one thing you're not feeding your dog is needed uncooked bones.

Still, peace be with to you, I hope your pet thrives.

[shadowknows69]

88. We've done some pretty good research on this too

I wouldn't leave my pet's health to chance.

[riverdeep]

90. Cool. n/t

[Ohio Joe]

80. My cat will be 16 in about two weeks and...

She eats all kinds of things, always has. I always keep her bowl full of crunchy food and change her water three times a day. Almost all of my meals are shared with her and there seems to be very little she does not like. Most of what I share with her is meat (what ever I'm eating) but she does also love potatoes, tater tots are her favorite because she can play with them before eating them (of course she only eats one). McDonald's french fries is another favorite for her, she goes nuts over them. Any meat I give her is always cooked though, I'm too afraid of her getting parasites or something. Her favorite veggies are peas and corn, and she HATES garlic, bwahahahahaha she actually growls at anything with garlic in it. She is still real healthy and active, pic is about a month or so ago.

[moriah]

81. We can't, Ninja needs a prescription diet.

Otherwise he gets bladder stones, he needs a diet with a specific pH.

[OnyxCollie]

82. I feed my four dogs frozen chicken backs in the morning

and Innova kibble at night. They are healthy and doing great.

[K Gardner]

113. Backs and wings are my dogs favorites ! n/t

[H2O Man]

84. Mixed diet.

Our dogs eat a mixed diet. Some "dog food," and lots of meat, eggs, etc. My dogs have always been healthy, happy, and energetic.

[AirmensMom]

86. We feed raw to our cats.

Ground whole rabbit or turkey, mixed with supplements. We have no choice. Our Abyssinians, mother and son, almost died on a commercial diet over 3 years ago. They both have inflammatory bowel disease and can't tolerate any commercial food, even the grain-free ones. They had bloody stinky diarrhea and lost a significant amount of weight (the boy went from a trim 9.5 pounds to under 6 pounds). We tried everything from special diets to antibiotics until the vet gave them up for dead. We finally tried raw food as a last ditch effort. They turned around after one week on it, with no meds, and immediately started gaining their weight back. They have been healthy ever since. I have been called a pseudoscientist, flat-earther, and asshat on this board because I feed my cats a diet that saved their lives.

[LostinVA]

91. We would love to if we had the time and freezer space

We do it as an occasional "raw day treat," and they seem to like it. We kibble we feed them is Evo, which is based on the raw diet (nutrient levels, etc.). They do very well on it, with cottage cheese, sweet potatoes, chicken, pumpkin, etc. added on occasion, and high-grade canned food after herding lesson.s


The dogs, anyway. The cat would never eat anything but her Innova kibble. She doesn't even like treats, although she does like milk.

[notadmblnd]

100. I feed my bird a raw food diet, nothing but seeds, fruit and raw greens.

Now my cat, she obtains her own food when she wants it raw. BTW did you see the episode of wife swappers where the one family was on a raw food diet? The people had a filthy house and rotten teeth. They actually ate rancid meat which was totally gross. Another gross thing they did was used a mixture of clay and butter to brush their rotten teeth. I came to the conclusion that their lifestyle was not one of healthy living, but of pure laziness. They were just icky.

[K Gardner]

112. I put my 2 bullies on raw meaty bones a few months ago.. now shiny coats, no more bad breath, no

bloating, more muscle, slimmed down, more energy, better dispositions, calmer, MUCH happier and healthier dogs. I don't know why I didn't do it earlier - raw is best for humans, of course it is for dogs.

[TwilightGardener]

118. No Campylobacter kisses for me, thanks. Purina it is.

[dana_b]

119. my kid tried to talk me into it

but it was a no-go. She worked at a pet food store here in the Bay Area that specializes in holistic, raw food diets, etc. It was too damn expensive and I was worried about worms. Instead we get her middle of the road stuff like Natural Balance and Canidae. She does great with it.

My kid did try to the Tiki Dog food but that made my dog sooo sick! Nothing like waking up to the smells of GI upset. Ew!

[LeftyMom]

124. The study that forms the basis for raw diets in pets is deeply flawed.

Dr. Pottenger removed the adrenal glands from cats and then fed them adrenal extract in order to determine its' potency, as this was the 40's and there was no reliable testing method available. Well after several years of tests and many generations of cats, he noticed that the cats in his colony of experimental animals were in poor health (go figure) and thought maybe this had something to do with their food. Which it almost certainly did, but not in the way he concluded.

Now his colony of cats was being fed on diet composed primarily of milk (I'm assuming cows' milk, the literature does not say.) Now anybody who knows the first thing about cats knows that's a bad idea, as even a little bit of milk will give most cats a spectacular case of the runs, but apparently Dr. Pottenger was not one of the world's brighter minds or keener noses, because he didn't clue in. Additionally this diet would be severely deficient in taurine, which I'll get back to in a minute.

So Dr. Pottenger got still more cats. He started the new cats in on a diet of raw milk and whatever random meat scraps he could get from the suppliers of the sanitarium where he worked. As these cats were new to the colony (and presumably healthy to start with and not interbred with each other previously) they did relatively well, health-wise. The scraps and offal would have a reasonable amount of natural taurine, provided there was some organ meat included.

The existing cats were given either evaporated, condensed or pasteurized milk as the primary factor in their diets. Keeping in mind that this is an unhealthy deficient diet for a cat, very deficient in taurine (unlike people cats can't metabolize this amino acid) and that these cats were the product of several generations of colony cats, and thus both probably the result of congenital malnourishment and inbreeding, their poor health was no shock. After several generations of this, the milk group got so sickly that it died out. (Cows' milk has any number of other problems for cats, which is why you shouldn't feed it, even as an occasional treat. Should you get the idea you're likely to get a smelly, sick cat for your trouble.)

Now nobody knew about the importance of taurine in feline diets yet, that wasn't understood until the late 60's, so Dr. Pottenger needed an explanation to fit the illness of the cats other than their taurine deficiency, which he didn't know about, likely inbreeding, which apparently hadn't occurred to him, or the simple fact that cats don't thrive on milk, which he apparently didn't know. He blamed the fact that the milk was processed, since the cats on the raw meat scrap/raw milk diet did well. Now if you actually wanted to prove that with a study, you'd have a raw milk and a cooked milk group, or a raw meat group v. a cooked meat group, both treated equally beforehand, your populations would be equal in health beforehand, and take care to make sure that their diets were exactly equivalent other than whether or not they were raw. Unfortunately, Dr. Pottenger didn't know how to design an experiment. Or feed a cat, apparently.

Advocates of raw food diets for animals and for humans tend to point to this study (by the way, it's a bad sign if after 60 years a study hasn't been replicated) as if it meant that raw foods are healthier for cats, and by extension for people, dogs, orangutans, breakfast cereals, very small rocks, etc. Really, all it tells us is that cats fed a milk diet deficient in taurine and other nutrients will get sick and die, and that those fed a relatively high taurine source of food (raw meat scraps) and milk in lesser quantities will do okay. Since prepared cooked cat food diets today have added taurine, and since humans metabolize their own, this really doesn't tell us anything significant about either feline or human nutrition.

I would be very skeptical of any supposed expert who bases their claims for a raw diet on Dr. Pottenger's cats, as the vet linked in the OP does on this page: http://www.drkarenbecker.com/nav_sets_04/set04.htm

PS While the short digestive tracts and quick digestive tracts of cats and other carnivores give them relatively good defenses against bacterial and parasitic infections from raw food, the reader is presumably human and thus quite vulnerable to these maladies. Preparing raw diets in one's kitchen and storing them along with one's own food sounds like a fantastic way to expose one's self to all sorts of diseases, some quite serious.

[bean fidhleir]

127. I chose not to read about that study because I had the feeling it would be so flawed as to upset me.

Thorndike was another lousy scientist, only thankfully less cruel than this clown. He apparently didn't mistreat the cats in his experiments, only procrusted his data into the Behaviorist religion of his day.

[slackmaster]

128. My kitteh ate a raw lizard the other day

Does that count?