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A Proposal for Assessing Legitimacy of our So-called “Wars of Liberation”

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 09:07 PM
Original message
A Proposal for Assessing Legitimacy of our So-called “Wars of Liberation”
Edited on Sun Dec-07-08 10:00 PM by Time for change
Like many other liberal/progressive Americans, I am very disturbed over our nation’s imperialistic ideals and actions, which have significantly accelerated under the Bush/Cheney administration.

Though it is a near certainty that an Obama Presidency will be an improvement over the past eight years, I am nevertheless not willing to allow myself to feel too optimistic about the likelihood of our country making a clean break with its imperialistic tendencies. This did not start with the Bush administration, and ending it will be a monumental task for any president. If President Obama manages to take large strides in that direction, he should be regarded as one of the greatest presidents in our history, on that basis alone.

Andrew Bacevich, in the last chapter of his book “The Limits of Power – The End of American Exceptionalism”, offers a very gloomy assessment, not directed at any particular individual. After briefly summarizing candidate Obama’s campaign promises, he says:

The agenda is an admirable one. Yet to imagine that installing a particular individual in the Oval Office will produce decisive action on any of these fronts is to succumb to the grandest delusion of all…

Whoever moves into the White House on January 20, 2009, the fundamental problem facing the country – a yawning disparity between what Americans expect and what they are willing or able to pay – will remain stubbornly in place. Any presidential initiatives aimed at alleviating the crisis of profligacy, reforming our political system, or devising a more realistic military policy are likely, at best, to have a marginal effect… Counting on the next president to fix whatever is broken promotes expectations of easy, no-cost cures, permitting ordinary citizens to absolve themselves of responsibility for the nation’s predicament. The same Americans who profess to despise all that Washington represents look to – depending on partisan affiliation – a new John F. Kennedy or a new Ronald Reagan to set things right again. Rather than seeing the imperial presidency as part of the problem, they persist in the fantasy that a chief executive, given a clear mandate, will “change” the way Washington works and restore the nation to good health… A citizenry that looks to the White House for deliverance is assured of disappointment.

I do not fully agree with Bacevich, though I share his concerns. I am more optimistic than he is. And I also believe that a U.S. President has more potential to make substantive changes in our nation’s direction than he does.

But still, I agree with Bacevich that the pressures on any U.S. President to continue on our imperialist road are going to be tremendously difficult to resist. So, for the record, I would like to state some of my rather simple-minded ideas on the subject.


“War of Liberation” as a euphemism for imperialist conquest

Imperialist countries almost always – if not always – spin their imperialist actions to make them sound much more benevolent than they are. In the case of the United States, the nature of the spin is to make their imperialist conquests sound like some sort of “war of liberation”, since our country was founded upon its own war of liberation. Let’s consider this spin with respect to the three most egregious examples of wars of imperialist conquest in our nation’s history: The Philippine-American War, the Vietnam War, and the current Iraq War and occupation:

Philippine-American War
After “liberating” the Philippines from Spain in 1898 in the course of the Spanish American War, the question arose as to what to do with them. President McKinley was besieged with advice from businessmen with commercial interests in the Philippines and by military men who believed we should gain control over the Philippines for strategic military purposes. This is how McKinley justified his decision to pursue conquest of the Philippines:

The truth is I didn’t want the Philippines, and when they came to us, as a gift from the gods, I did not know what to do with them…

I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight; and I am not ashamed to tell you that I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance… And one night late it came to me this way: (1) That we could not give them back to Spain – that would be cowardly and dishonorable… (3) that we could not leave them to themselves – they were unfit for self-government – and they would soon have anarchy and misrule; and (4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God’s grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died. And then I went to bed, and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States, and there they are, and there they will stay while I am President!

The Filipinos didn’t appreciate that decision. They declared independence on January 23, 1899, and twelve days later they declared war against the United States.

The Vietnam War
It was John Foster Dulles, President Eisenhower’s Secretary of State, who initially decided to intervene in Vietnam. Though the Geneva Conference Agreements, which officially ended the war between France and Vietnam in 1954, provided for general elections which were to bring about the unification of Vietnam, that was not acceptable to Dulles. Fearing a Communist victory in those elections, Dulles intervened to prevent the elections from taking place and proclaimed an indefinite commitment by the United States to that effect – a commitment that President Kennedy inherited, and which was subsequently passed on to Presidents Johnson and Nixon.

From the time that we prevented the Vietnamese from holding elections in 1956 as previously agreed, until our withdrawal from Vietnam 17 years later, the justification for our imperial policies there was always to help the Vietnamese to throw of the yolk of Communism, and also to prevent the spread of Communism to other countries.

But the issue of what right we had to prevent a sovereign nation from holding elections to choose their own government was rarely discussed in our country.

The Iraq War
The initial justification for George Bush’s invasion of Iraq was that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction and that, given his alleged close ties to al Qaeda, those weapons posed a mortal danger to us. When the initial justification was exposed for the lie that it always was, Bush’s major new justification became the need to spread freedom and democracy to Iraq. Here are excerpts from a Bush speech, bragging about what his invasion of Iraq accomplished:

It's a remarkable transformation for a country that has virtually no experience with democracy, and which is struggling to overcome the legacy of one of the worst tyrannies the world has known…. There's still a lot of difficult work to be done in Iraq, but thanks to the courage of the Iraqi people, the year 2005 will be recorded as a turning point in the history of Iraq, the history of the Middle East, and the history of freedom… As the Iraqi people struggle to build their democracy, adversaries continue their war on a free Iraq. The enemy in Iraq is a combination of rejectionists and Saddamists and terrorists.

In reality, “the enemy” that Bush referred to was, and is mostly Iraqis who are fighting against the U.S. occupation of their country.


The outcomes of our imperialist wars

The outcomes of these (and other) imperialist wars have been unmitigated and massive human tragedies:

The Philippine-American War
After the Filipinos declared independence, a long vicious guerilla war ensued. Only after press censorship was lifted in 1901 did ordinary Americans get to learn what was happening. According to a report in the Philadelphia Ledger:

Our men have been relentless; have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people, from lads of ten and up, an idea prevailing that the Filipino, as such, was little better than a dog… Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to “make them talk,” have taken prisoner people who held up their hands and peacefully surrendered, and an hour later… shot them down one by one…

Many more massacres and atrocities ensued. By the time that the new President, Teddy Roosevelt, declared the Philippines “pacified” on July 4, 1902, 4,373 American soldiers had died in the war, along with an estimated 16 thousand Filipino soldiers and 20 thousand Filipino civilians.

The Vietnam War
As in our war against the Philippines, most of the people of South Vietnam deeply resented our involvement there, which led to cycles of guerilla warfare against our troops, which we responded to with massacres and other atrocities. George McGovern, the anti-Vietnam War Democratic candidate for President in 1972, proclaimed numerous reasons for advocating complete withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam over a period of several months, including: The South Vietnamese people have a right to decide what kind of government they live under; the corrupt South Vietnamese government we supported had lost the confidence of the people of all parts of Vietnam; we were paying an awful price for the war in terms of lost lives and money; Nixon’s idea of “Peace with honor” was pure hypocrisy – There is no honor in having millions of people killed for no good reason; and, it had become obvious that we couldn’t win the war.

In the end, 58,000 American troops died in the Vietnam War, along with about two million Vietnamese. The cost to the U.S. was about $600 billion.

The Iraq War
An epidemiological study in 2006 showed that since the 2003 invasion of Iraq there had been 655,000 excess Iraqi deaths over a period of a little more than three years – that is, deaths that are due to the invasion and subsequent occupation. Over 600 thousand of those deaths were violent deaths, amounting to about 500 violent deaths per day. A later study placed the Iraqi death toll at over a million.

According to the United Nations, approximately two million Iraqis have fled their country since the start of the invasion, and the number of external refugees was then increasing by about 50 thousand per month. In addition, there have been almost two million internally displaced Iraqis since the start of the war.

Iraq’s infrastructure has been devastated. For example, despite U.S. promises to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure, by October 2006 Iraqis in Baghdad were receiving an average of only 2.4 hours of electricity per day. The Iraqi healthcare system is crumbling. And according to a UN/World Bank report, water and sewage treatment has deteriorated by 50%.

A report by a coalition of non-governmental groups called the Global Policy Forum shed a lot of light on some of the reasons for the tragedies that so many Iraqis have suffered under the U.S. occupation. The report explains that U.S. forces:

have held a large number of Iraqi citizens in 'security detention' without charge or trial, in direct violation of international law. No Iraqi is safe from arbitrary arrest and the number of prisoners has risen greatly since 2003 (when the US-led war began)…

U.S. military commanders have established permissive rules of engagement, allowing troops to use deadly force against virtually any perceived threat. As a consequence, the US and its allies regularly kill Iraqi civilians at checkpoints and during military operations, on the basis of the merest suspicion…abusing and torturing large numbers of Iraqi prisoners… torture increasingly takes place in Iraqi prisons, apparently with US awareness and complicity…In addition to combat deaths, coalition forces have killed many Iraqi civilians.

The United States has established broad legal immunity in Iraq for its forces, for private security personnel, for foreign military and civilian contractors, and even for the oil companies doing business in Iraq…

Under the control or influence of U.S. authorities, public funds in Iraq have been drained by massive corruption and stolen oil, leaving the country unable to provide basic services and incapable of rebuilding. Billion of dollars have disappeared.


A Proposal for assessing legitimacy of our so-called “wars of liberation”

As long as we allow our leaders to get away with their Orwellian doublespeak without challenging them on it, our country will continue to be pulled into imperialist wars, with the same tragic consequences as all of our other ones. When they claim that the purpose of a war against a sovereign nation is to spread freedom to its people, they ought to be able to point to criteria of legitimacy. If they can’t do that, that ought to be taken as prima facie evidence that we should pull out. I propose the following three criteria for starters, as a minimum.

Absence of substantial numbers of civilian deaths
The ultimate indication of lack of freedom is death. Dead people are not free, nor is a nation that is constantly confronted by death. Therefore, it represents an egregious abrogation of responsibility that in our war to “liberate” Iraq, our national news media has been so reluctant to report on Iraqi deaths.

Greg Mitchell edited a book titled “So Wrong for so Long – How the Press, the Pundits and the President Failed on Iraq”. A section titled “Will the Media Finally Count the Dead?” reads:

From the beginning, the U.S. military refused to count – and the American military rarely probed – civilian casualties as the result of our invasion of Iraq in 2003. For the longest time, these deaths were rarely mentioned at all…

Journalist Jane Arraf comments on the lack of delving into this crucial issue:

I’m more puzzled by comments that the violence isn’t any worse than any American city. Really? In which American city do 60 bullet-riddled bodies turn up on a given day? In which city do the headless bodies of ordinary citizens turn up every single day? …

Imagine the worst day you’ve ever had in your life, add a regular dose of terror, and you’ll begin to get an idea of what it’s like every day for a lot of people here.

What can one say about the abysmal failure of our news media to address this issue? If most Americans were aware that our efforts to “liberate” Iraq have resulted in a million innocent Iraqi deaths, what would that do our support for the war?

Absence of substantial numbers of refugees
Another major indication that a nation is not free is a substantial numbers of refugees. An April 2007 article in The Nation by Dahr Jamail notes about 4 million Iraqi refugees as of that date. Add one million dead to that, and we see that about one fifth of the original Iraqi population since the 2003 U.S. invasion has either died as a result of the war or occupation or become refugees. Jamail’s article explains the reason for so many refugees:

On all measurable levels, life in Baghdad, now well into the fifth year of U.S. occupation, has become hellish for Iraqis who have attempted to remain, which, of course, only adds to the burgeoning numbers who daily become part of the exodus to neighboring lands. It is generally agreed that the delivery of security, electricity, potable water, health care, and jobs -- that is, the essentials of modern urban life -- are all significantly worse than during the last years of the reign of Saddam Hussein… "The Americans are detaining so many people," Ali Hassan, a 41-year-old from the Hay Jihad area of Baghdad said as we spoke…

The opinions of the subjects of our occupation
If a so-called war of liberation is to claim any success in liberating the subjects of the presumed liberation, then one would expect those subjects to express feelings of gratitude, or at least when asked, indicate that they approve of the occupation. Attempts to ascertain their opinions should be the first order of business whenever we become involved in a “war of liberation” of another people. But as with the issues of Iraqi deaths and refugees, our national news media has been virtually mute on this subject.

One predominant characteristic of all three wars discussed in this post is the immense hostility of the populations that we “liberated” towards our “liberation” of them. In fact, in all three wars, so much of the population hated the American presence in their country that we could hardly differentiate the civilian population that we were claiming to “liberate” from the enemy that we were fighting. Consequently, our military becomes frustrated, and they end up massacring civilians because they are unable to differentiate the subjects of our “liberation” from “the enemy”. This is an all too common occurrence in guerilla wars in which the subjects of our “liberation” bitterly resent our presence. As an example, here is a brief summary of the battle of Fallujah in the spring of 2004:

In the end, perhaps as many as eight hundred Iraqis (including hundreds of women and children) died as a result of the first of what would be several sieges of Fallujah. Tens of thousands of civilians fled their homes, and the city was razed… Far from asserting U.S. supremacy in Iraq, Fallujah demonstrated that guerrilla tactics were effective against the occupiers. The number of guerillas probably totaled no more than 400 out of a population of 300,000. But by assaulting a whole city, as if it was Verdun or Stalingrad, the US Marines managed to turn it into a nationalist symbol….

The point is that these kinds of scenarios ought to serve to remind us that our efforts at “liberation” are woefully unsuccessful and illigitimate, and we ought to just pack up and leave.

If our failure to differentiate the “enemy” from those we are trying to liberate isn’t enough to tell us that we’re on the wrong course, polling of the civilian population can be performed. An opinion poll of Iraqis in September 2006 should have told us all we needed to know about the success and legitimacy of our “liberation” effort:

 78% said that the U.S. military presence is provoking more conflict than it is preventing.
 61% said that U.S. military withdrawal would increase security for ordinary Iraqis.
 61% approved of violent attacks on U.S. led forces.
 91% said that U.S. forces should withdraw within two years or less.


Conclusion

If we have no method for measuring the success or legitimacy of our “wars of liberation”, then we will have no way of knowing when they are or are not successful. Of course, governments that engage in phony “wars of liberation” will never agree to such measurements because they will expose those wars for the frauds that they are. And that is why the American people must insist on such things.

But these kinds of methods for evaluating our wars are not what Americans are used to, and they go against the grain of a long history of American militarism. Consequently, President Obama will have a very difficult time of toning down our militaristic attitudes, no matter how much he may wish to do that. A recent editorial in The Nation expressed the conundrum. They did not express it specifically in terms of military matters, but the principle is the same regardless of the specific issue:

The pressure to govern from the center, to try not to alienate the establishment, will be massive. But as in 1933, when FDR took office, the people yearn for bold leadership – and the crisis we are in requires it.

FDR, we must remember… was compelled to take dramatic action because of the great traumas and powerful movements around him. The Great Depression, combined with pressure from the popular social movements working outside the administration, pushed him to carry out bolder reforms. There's a powerful lesson in this history for our time.
The small "d" democratic movement that helped elect Barack Obama – the millions of volunteers and organizers, and 2 million-plus small donors – will play a key role in forging a progressive agenda under his administration. We will need this broad and energized grassroots base to overcome the timid incrementalists, the forces of money and power, that are obstacles to change… Historically, we know the Democratic Party's finest moments have come when it was spurred into action by movements on the outside.

This is where The Nation, along with other independent and progressive forces, can come into play… We will continue to make bold proposals, ferret out the truth, expose corruption and abuse of power, and hold our politicians accountable… We will strive to inject new, timely ideas into the democratic arena…

While we may not agree with everything President Obama does, we recognize that he has the capacity to be a transformative president. The change he can bring will be most lasting and profound if the motto of his organizing campaign – "Respect. Empower. Include." – embodies the spirit of his administration. That was, in essence, the pledge he made election night when he said, "I will never forget who this victory truly belongs to. It belongs to you."

In other words, President Obama cannot do it alone. It will be necessary for progressives to counter the pressure from the right and the center, to push him in the right direction.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
Here are some quotes to help us ponder what we may be up against:


"There exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself." — Senator Daniel K. Inouye at the Iran Contra Hearings


"The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise their power from behind the scenes."-- Justice Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court.


"We have operating within our government and political system, another body representing another form of government, a bureaucratic elite which believes our Constitution is outmoded... All the strange developments in foreign policy agreements may be traced to this group who are going to make us over to suit their pleasure... This political action group has its own local political support organizations, its own pressure groups, its own vested interests, its foothold within our government, and its own propaganda apparatus." - Senator William Jenner, February 23, 1954.



"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson


“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. " - Theodore Roosevelt, April 19, 1906



"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur



"I never would have agreed to the formulation of the Central Intelligence agency back in '47, if I had known it would become the American Gestapo. " - Harry S Truman (1961)


"The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state and nation. ....At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both political parties." New York City Mayor John F. Hylan, 1922



"For some time I have been disturbed by the way the CIA has been diverted from it's original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy making arm of the government." -- President Harry Truman


The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining super-capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent." - Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets


“.........Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” - David Rockefeller, Memoirs , 2002
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Liberate is slang for steal.
Which is what usually happens to the resources of the 'liberated' country.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. I have long been fascinated with these kinds of things
It would be great to have a lot more context on those quotes -- maybe I'll do some digging on it.

I would have thought that with all the reading I do that I would be much more informed about these kinds of things. My guess is that there is very little good information available on it.

I did read a biography on Truman, and the quotes you give here sound vaguely familiar, but I don't recall the details.

I also read a book by a couple of former CIA guys -- a whistle blowing account of a lot of bad things that go on there. And they did say that the CIA was way out of control, to the extent that Presidents could no longer control it. But most stuff that I've read since then, even though detailing a lot of bad stuff that the CIA has done, does not suggest that it isn't under the control of the President.

Then I've read "The Creature from Jekyll Island", about the Federal Reserve, and some related books, and they talk a lot about this kind of stuff, but I have some qualms about most of those books -- the degree of anti-socialism expressed in them sounds downright paranoid.

I think there have been a lot of very suspicious assassination (JFK, RFK, MLK, Paul Wellstone, and others). I am certain that LHO did not kill JFK, and I believe that there is a high likelihood that some sort of parallel government was behind some or most of these things -- and 9/11 too. But I have very few details to support who was involved in these things.

The one author who comes the closest to explaining these things, IMO, is John Perkins, in "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and a follow-up book that he wrote. Here is a quote from one of his books:

I walked into El Presidente’s office two days after he was elected and congratulated him… I said “Mr. President, in here I got a couple hundred million dollars for you and your family, if you play the game – you know, be kind to my friends who run the oil companies, treat your Uncle Sam good.” Then I stepped closer, reached my right hand into the other pocket, bent down next to his face, and whispered, “In here I got a gun and a bullet with your name on it – in case you decide to keep your campaign promises.” I stepped back, sat down, and recited a little list for him, of presidents who were assassinated or overthrown because they defied their Uncle Sam: from Diem to Torrijos – you know the routine. He got the message.

John Perkins, quoting an anonymous source in his book, “The Secret History of the American Empire – Economic Hit Men, Jackals, and the Truth about Global Corruption”.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that I believe you're right -- Obama will be facing great pressures on him that we barely understand the nature of. Maybe I'll learn about these things before I die.


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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Don't hesitate to investigate.
We will not fix our problems if we don't see what is really going on. Until then the game will go 'round and 'round and we will continue to be beaten into submission.

Class warfare; Thus far the corporate elite score "1", the rest of us score "0".
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Correct ...the only way the right can take power is thru violence ..
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 07:37 PM by defendandprotect
and they have ...

OK ...what would you do if you were in the president's chair---???

Where's the out ...???
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
2.  "the gift of freedom".....
Yes, that is what is always used as an excuse to spread democracy at the point of a gun.

We gave Iraqis the "gift of freedom."

This was said this year by a candidate.

Excellent post, recommended.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Thank you -- Yes, I was very disappointed to hear that "gift of freedom" remark from her
Let's hope that it was just campaign rhetoric and that she won't be going down that road in the next 4-8 years.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent, you're needed in the Obama administration :)
Repeated from your OP.


"...A Proposal for assessing legitimacy of our so-called “wars of liberation”

As long as we allow our leaders to get away with their Orwellian doublespeak without challenging them on it, our country will continue to be pulled into imperialist wars, with the same tragic consequences as all of our other ones. When they claim that the purpose of a war against a sovereign nation is to spread freedom to its people, they ought to be able to point to criteria of legitimacy. If they can’t do that, that ought to be taken as prima facie evidence that we should pull out. I propose the following three criteria for starters, as a minimum.

Absence of substantial numbers of civilian deaths...

Absence of substantial numbers of refugees...

The opinions of the subjects of our occupation...


....Conclusion

If we have no method for measuring the success or legitimacy of our “wars of liberation”, then we will have no way of knowing when they are or are not successful. Of course, governments that engage in phony “wars of liberation” will never agree to such measurements because they will expose those wars for the frauds that they are. And that is why the American people must insist on such things..."





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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Thank you very much
I'd love to work in the Obama administration.

Maybe someday our fellow Americans will view our wars along these lines rather than in the militaristic ways that so many of them now view them. :)
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yes we can hope and yet this issue is hardly mentioned...
"Iraqis in growing numbers are fleeing the war at home, creating the largest refugee crisis in the Middle East in almost 60 years."

Instead we hear that the Iraqis need to take responsibility for their future, forgetting that many professionals have either fled or been killed.

"...The refugees include large numbers of doctors, academics and other professionals vital for Iraq's recovery..."

:shrug:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/03/AR2007020301604.html


And you are welcome :)








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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Even the members of the fake government have been asking us to leave for years ...
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Doesn't matter, we need to protect our interests :( n/t
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. No foreign intervention whatsoever. Not even foreign aid.
We have no right to overthrow another country, unless they deliberately attacked us. However, if a foreign country does deliberately attack us, we should not hesitate to destroy them.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. International law does allow for intervention when genocide is in progress
But it should have the concurrence of the UN.

I agree with that. I think that it is a good thing for the United Nations to have a mechanism for world action against genocide.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. One problem, Russia and China can veto
Which is why The UN is mostly useless when it comes to things like Darfur, Sudan knows it can rely on China vetoing anny attempt to send in peacekeepers. And even when peacekeepers go in that are tied up with so many strings they can't do squat.

IMO doing what is right trumps having to suck up to China and Russia to get proper UN approval. Remember Bosnia?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I agree, with some reservations
If it's too easy to do, then we risk countries using it as an excuse to disguise naked aggression, like the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That is true, but I really don't know the alternatives.
:shrug:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Israel and US should be at top of the list ...
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. I have just about had it with you
instead of cluttering my bookmarks, yours will be the first journal I subscribe to :-)

:thumbsup:

K&R (not bookmarked ;-))
bmc
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. That's very nice to hear, thank you
Glad you found a way to get your bookmarks uncluttered. :)
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. Kick n/t
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. ...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. Read first two paragraphs and agree .....
Certainly Iraq was not a "war of liberation" ...

and Bush, if I recall coorrectly, at one point called it a "Crusade" --!!

That was in his "I talk with God about war days" ...

but I think he finally moved on to, "I am God" ...!!!

FDR saved capitalism by regulating it --

Our first steps should be to reform and Re-regulate --

And assess progressive taxation on elites/corporations ...

YES ... We have to move the center to the left ...

Tell me where our leverage is on this party to do that-?

Especially while we have a DLC within the party moving it to the right--!

We have a strong anti-war movement in America and internationally ...

It's been ignored --





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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. After reading all of article --
Edited on Wed Dec-10-08 01:15 AM by defendandprotect
"War of liberation" sounds like euphemism Hitler might have used, btw --

Re the Andrew Bacevich comments --

Counting on the next president to fix whatever is broken promotes expectations of easy, no-cost cures, permitting ordinary citizens to absolve themselves of responsibility for the nation’s predicament. The same Americans who profess to despise all that Washington represents look to – depending on partisan affiliation – a new John F. Kennedy or a new Ronald Reagan to set things right again. Rather than seeing the imperial presidency as part of the problem, they persist in the fantasy that a chief executive, given a clear mandate, will “change” the way Washington works and restore the nation to good health… A citizenry that looks to the White House for deliverance is assured of disappointment.

Re "permitting ordinary citizens to absolve themselves of responsibility for the
nation’s predicament" ... I find that confusing since citizens didn't collectively
decide to drop atomic weapons, or attack Iraq. In fact, we have a strong peace
movement being ignored.

FDR, needless to say, set many things right -- not all, of course, but put Americans on
a better footing. Truman began reversals.

JFK certainly had a clear shot at "setting things right again" .... and, therefore, they
killed him.

HOWEVER, we also have to understand that immediately upon killing Kennedy, the election
process was taken over with something more powerful than just money. They were not
about to have the assassination overturned by future elections.
The large computer counters used by media began to come in in mid-late 1960's --
and frequent breakdowns and questionable totals abounded.
Two journalists began to investigate.

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm


It was John Foster Dulles, President Eisenhower’s Secretary of State, who initially decided to intervene in Vietnam. Though the Geneva Conference Agreements, which officially ended the war between France and Vietnam in 1954, provided for general elections which were to bring about the unification of Vietnam, that was not acceptable to Dulles. Fearing a Communist victory in those elections, Dulles intervened to prevent the elections from taking place and proclaimed an indefinite commitment by the United States to that effect – a commitment that President Kennedy inherited, and which was subsequently passed on to Presidents Johnson and Nixon.

Ike was frequently betrayed by the CIA/intelligence agenda which was counter to his STATED
agenda. That's why his speech on the MIC originally included "intelligence" but after he
put it in, it was taken out. Ike put it back in again and it was removed again.
Also -- re U-2, Gary Powers and Paris Peace Talks Summit ...
Ike had instructed that that NO U-2 flights be flown for months before the Paris Meetings.
Ike was betrayed with the Powers' flight and Powers was betrayed, as well . . .
Various articles that were not supposed to be in plane, were there. Other stuff was missing.
Allen Dulles, of course, would have been one of the insiders re JFK coup and cover up.

"The myth of a free press died with the assassination of JFK."
****************************************************************


We've been bombing Iraq for close to 20 years now --???

And have refused to clean up the depleted uranium --
pollution we've only added to with W's attack --

We are, as far as I can see, a terrorist nation -- and the most violent people on the planet.








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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yeah, like I said, I don't fully agree with Bacevich's comments either
Like you, I believe that there is a lot that our President can do. But also, I believe that there are a lot of things that go on that the American people don't know about, and the President's hands are probably tied more than most people realize. I think that the truth lies somewhere between Bacevich's account and what most Americans believe about it.

Eisenhower was given bad advice by the Dulles brothers, but still I hold him largely responsible for his egregious interventions in Iran and Guatemala, which ruined the lives of their citizens for many decades to come. As Truman said, the buck stops there.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I agree that "a lot of things go on that citizens don't know about" ....
Edited on Wed Dec-10-08 04:42 PM by defendandprotect
but I think that those things are corrupt things.

The stories surrounding Ted Kennedy seem to suggest that there have

been constant threats --


Jimmy Carter is another example of our government being in hands of

murderers -- they would constantly relate news of assassination and

death threats to him ... "because of his policies." Carter spoke to

the American people one night -- with 20 minutes of silence at end,

where he had suggested he had something of importance to say to us.

Clearly, Carter's presidency was constantly being undermined -

finally, with the "October Surprise" which included dirty work of

GHWB and Gates, among others.

Carter's efforts to rescue hostages produced suspicious helicopter

failures -- helicopters to operate in desert conditions were missing

the equipment to keep sand out of engines. I now understand that

Ollie North and Secord/? were in charge of those operations.

When whole families can be threatened this way -- and a president's

instructions ignored -- then we are under criminal control.


From my first msg --

YES ... We have to move the center to the left ...

Tell me where our leverage is on this party to do that-?

Especially while we have a DLC within the party moving it to the right--!

We have a strong anti-war movement in America and internationally ...

It's been ignored --








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