In support of American made cars.. wake up and smell the coffee

[Peacetrain]

I drive a 2004 Vibe and get 28-32 mpg in town and 36 mpg on the highway and have gotten as high as 40 on two different trips.

The seats in the Vibe are the best in the industry. And the cargo area is awesome, and it looks good also.

So to all those who have not looked at American made autos in 10 or 15 years, your information that you are relying on could be very faulty as to quality of American made cars.

[TwilightGardener]

1. I have always bought American, since my first new car (Escort) in '92.

I have never, ever had a serious problem or breakdown with any of them: Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Jeep. I am so tired of the myth that they're of poor quality.

[amitten]

3. Well, a lot of us out here have had far worse experiences.

(Specifically Dodge, for me--more than one model to the tune of thousands of dollars.) So it's not really a myth. Some people just get lucky, IMHO.

But if you're one of the unlucky ones, you learn fast and buy a Honda and never have problems again.

[Peacetrain]

7. My brother had a Honda, and well did not like it to say the least

So you can get good and bad in any make, domestic or foreign

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. I had an '84 honda accord. It was about as reliable as my '85 dodge charger.

I haven't had a newer import than that.

For me, I want a car that is reliable enough. Even if I were to accept the idea that imports are more reliable, I'm not going to pay $10k to (hypothetically) increase my reliability from 99.95% to 99.97%.

[GrizzlyMan]

20. My 2000 Accord has 216,000 miles on it

But yeah, Honda makes bad cars :eyes:

[Romulox]

21. You might want to look up "anecdotal evidence" to get a feel for how this works. nt

[GrizzlyMan]

22. I would, but then again I had a 84 Prelude that made it to 250k

And an 1981 Accord that was over 250k when it went to the junkyard 17 years after it rolled off the assembly line.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. I'm not suggesting that Honda makes bad cars.

I'm suggesting that they're not better in a meaningful way, in the real world to anything built by detroit.

Since detroit=bad, I can see how you could jump to that conclusion.

The average owner kills a car, import or domestic, long before it can die a natural death.

[Thegonagle]

72. Honda has had plenty of problems. The Accord V6 transmissions

and the faulty rear wheel bearings on many Honda Accords come to mind.

BTW, I have a Jeep, and a Honda (and I like them both for different reasons). Guess which one has over 200,000 miles. Now guess which one burns a quart of oil every 700 to 900 miles.

[TwilightGardener]

78. No, I'm not "lucky"--I think that's probably the normal experience. I don't buy into

the myth, sorry, and you can't sell it to me, because it doesn't fit MY experience. I traded in my Jeep Cherokee last year after 7 years and 160,000 miles, and the only things to ever go wrong with it were a faulty dashboard temperature gauge (the needle got stuck) and a leaky air conditioning hose. Traded it in for another Jeep. You couldn't get me to buy anything foreign when we make perfectly good cars here.

[Peacetrain]

4. Me too!. In fact I think my Vibe compares to a Prius is milage.

Don't get me wrong, I want a full force frontal assault on switching to green energy.. but in the mean time, I will take my Vibe over a Prius any day comparatively

[Jane Austin]

33. I'm glad to hear about the Vibe, but

I routinely get 47 mpg on my Prius, driving in town and between home and work.

Just between towns, I get 51 mpg - going 55 - 60 mph.

Good to hear about the good mileage on an American car, though.

[Kalyke]

79. And hasn't been recalled like the Prius, either.

As a matter of fact, has the Vibe been recalled at all?

I know tens of thousands of Priuses were.

[GrizzlyMan]

6. Maybe that's because you didn't drive them long enough

I support the bailout whole heartedly because the workers are important to me. They should be important to all of us. But this revisionist history that Detroit never made a bad car is becoming a little tiresome.

[Odin2005]

64. The "crappy car" period was in the 70s and early 80s.

The big 3 were making good cars again by the late 80s. and not all cars in the 70s sucked, my dad had a '76 Mercury Cougar for many years and he says it was the best car he ever owned.

[Thegonagle]

71. IMO, the last really, really, really bad American car was the Ford Tempo.

Since then, they've been just fine, and like any car, will take about as good care of you as you take care of it.

Beaten, abused, neglected, with all planned maintenance ignored, the most "reliable" car in Consumer Reports will be ready for the junk yard in 100,000 miles.

And any well-maintained, well-loved car from any manufacturer will go 200,000 miles. There are Chevys out there (that had proper care) with over half a million miles on them, and there are Hondas, Toyotas, and VWs with seized engines (due to neglect) with less than 100,000 miles on them.

[Peacetrain]

76. Exactly!

[hobbit709]

2. "Qualty is job one at Ford"

That was the actual typo on page 1 in the manual in the glove box on a Taurus. True, some models of American cars are good just like some import models are crap. Since I can't afford a new car of any kind, I'll keep driving my old heap until it dies.

[dmallind]

5. Ermmm....

The Vibe is made at NUMMI (GM Toyota joint venture) and relies heavily on Toyota engineering. It's built on the Corolla platform, and the new version uses the Camry base engine (the old version used the Corolla engine).

It is indeed American made, but then so are many Toyotas (including the Matrix which is the same car) Hondas, Nissans, Mazdas. Mercedes, and so on.

[Peacetrain]

8. My next car will be a Vibe also! It is off the charts as far as I am concerned.

I know a few other people who have Vibes, and just love them

[EOTE]

9. I think the current Cobalt and Malibu are better examples of how domestics fare.

The Cobalt is a good deal cheaper than the Civic and Corolla, yet gets better fuel economy than either. I think it's a more fun to drive car than the Corolla too. The Malibu is very competitive with the Accord and Camry yet comparing similar models, you'll pay a lot less for the Malibu (I think it's got a more attractive interior than either).

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Son's girlfriend loves her Cobalt. n/t

[dmallind]

26. Civic actually starts cheaper, and mpg differences are in test error range

There is significant variation in even official mpg tests (look at the window sticker for even internal variation on the model!) and the 29mpg mixed and 30mpg mixed between Civic and Cobalt is nothing that would dictate your experience.

Lowest MSRP on a Civic is $15205 - $400 less than a Cobalt (2 door manual coupes in both cases). It also has ABS as standard - a $400 option on Cobalt, which is then $16060. The Civic has better shoulder and leg room too. Lookos are subjective, but I suspect the Civic would be judged more appealing by most.

Now in full disclosure the very cheapest Civic lacks AC, something I consider a near necessity, but the much better equipped value package comes in with AC and some other nice gizmos the Cobalt lacks at $16155.

But pedantry aside, the main advantage is long term costs of ownership, including resale value. Also bear in mind that the quality awards and rankings the big 3 cars have been winning lately universally rank INITIAL quality (JD Power etc).

Initial complaints are a misleading metric, and initial quality is asinine. Kia can build a car that works well the first day, let alone Ford. What about 70000 miles later - a mileage count stereotypical in the repair industry for Ford transmissions to frequently fail? Anecodotal of course (just like attempted refutations of YOUR 150K Ford transmission that runs fine - just ask a transmission shop!) but I once had a long chat with a MB technician about that brands low rankings. He was off the clock and by no means a total advocate - he grumbled aplenty about complex mechanics and electronics that were not tested fully enough at the plant - but his take on complaints (a typical metric used to help rank initial quality) was illuminating. He had worked at other dealerships earlier and contrasted the typical MB complaint (slight buzzes or misaligned radio knobs and switchgear were common) with the lower cost brand's (IIRC it was Ford but can't recall certainly) which were for more basic failures. In other words the more expensive and better made the car, the more picky and minor the complaints.

[benEzra]

37. The new Malibu is an excellent car. (n/t)

[dmallind]

48. Believe it or not I kind of like its design too.

A bit early to tell on its longer term quality, but looks much better than most recent moderate cost GM products for sure. It would not be off the list for consideration should I stick with value priced midsize sedan next time I buy a car.

[EOTE]

51. I think it kind of looks like the new Passat.

Which is a fairly attractive car IMO.

[dmallind]

54. Yep I guess it does. Always liked the chopped off rear end look

Just thinking of cars here honest!

[benEzra]

65. My current GM car ('97 Buick) has 175,286 miles on it as of this afternoon...

and I drive it pretty hard. Gets 30-33 mpg on the highway, 20's around town, and goes 0-60 in under 8 seconds, which is pretty darn good for a full-size sedan of that age and mileage. It has GM's fantastic L67 engine (3800 Series II V6 with an Eaton M90 supercharger). Paint still looks good, and everything still works, although the left rear power window motor is getting a little sketchy and will need to be replaced at some point. I don't think it will have any problem reaching 250,000 miles in good shape. I think the workers at Hamtramck did a darn good job.

And the L67 sounds fantastic on boost...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plZ8d96s5a4&feature=related

Not mine, but the same engine, and the same soundtrack...

[CRF450]

67. Those 3800 series GM v6's are damn good engines!

The new 3.6 direct injected v6 is even better, outputting right at 300hp and getting that same or better fuel milage (they say the direct injection is more fuel efficient) that same engine is gonna be the base engine in the 2010 Chevy Camaro. They car's starting price is 23 grand, and its already loaded with a bunch of options and such.

[benEzra]

69. Yup. I'd love to be able to afford the new Cadillac CTS with that engine

and a 6-speed manual...

http://image.motortrend.com/f/9498300/112_0709_08z+2008_cadillac_CTS+rear_three_quarter_view.jpg

[Romulox]

17. NUMMI is UAW, the rest of Toyota is not. nt

[dmallind]

27. Which means not much really for the car itself.

They are still putting in Corolla or Camry engines onto Corolla platforms.

[Romulox]

30. You're a little tone-deaf on Labor issues, aren't you? nt

[dmallind]

42. Nope - just disagree with the majority here

I fully understand that most people on DU think unions automatically make things better in both senses of the word. I just disgaree.

[Peacetrain]

44. Sorry you feel that way..but in my book..union means quality.

[dmallind]

47. I understand, and gladly cede you that right

But personally I would be somewhat skeptical about the likelihood of paying dues to be covered under a contract making any positive difference to the quality of your work when compared to being a free agent responsible for managing your own job security, pay and career.

I've worked in both environments in jobs that entail a thorough knowledge of operations, costs and quality (it is after all what I do, having spent a lot of time in supply Chain, Quality and Continuous Improvement roles) and nothing in that admittedly anecodtal experience has persuaded me of this either.

I have nothing agaisnt those who look to be part of a union, or people who seek to buy their products. I certainly don't actively seek to AVOID union products, although I do actively seek to avoid union work environments, but I don't grant them any special status either.

[PVnRT]

50. Quality comes from management, not the line

The workers have nothing to do with it - you follow your instructions, and that's it (unless you try to make suggestions to management).

I won't argue that union laborers are better-trained and have a better safety record, but, in the end, if management really doesn't give a shit about quality, it won't be there.

[hendo]

61. ding ding ding

it is nice to see a post by someone who gets it.

[riqster]

39. No such thing as an "American Car" any more

My 1987 Ford pickup was over 40% Japanese parts, for instance.

[Kalyke]

80. Pssstt... all automobile manufacturers share parts and plants

That's why Sens. Shelby and Sessions are in for a rude awakening for the foreign plants in their state if GM goes down.

But, you can't bet on those idiots thinking that far ahead.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. My wife drives a 2007 Dodge Caliber.

30-32 mpg consistently. Comfortable, great capacity and very well equipped and cost about $18k. It now has about 25k miles and has not been in the shop for any reason.

[Peacetrain]

14. I use my car for work, and have over 90, 000 miles on it now..

and besides, brake replacements, due to my high mileage usage that would be true in any car regular maintenance, oil changes etc.. no repair issues at all..

[ogneopasno]

12. We get 35-40 mpg consistently with our 2008 Ford Focus. We only buy UAW American cars.

And we've never had anything but satisfaction out of them.

[Peacetrain]

43. We have owned across the market..but are basically all American made

at this point.. And we get awesome gas mileage. Of course I don't buy SUV's, I have never understood the love affair with those behemoths myself.

When I think of SUV's I think of Rush Limbaugh.. and I caught a program of his a few years ago and he was wailing against Democrats and their Cafe standards and little itty bitty cars.. and he was going to drive his SUV and suck on his cigars.. and all the commie democrats could take a flying leap.. or something to that effect.

The great liar of our time.. the leader of or opposition, who single handedly kept the ill informed from backing their legislators to back CAFE standards.

[Warpy]

13. I keep telling people that US makers are putting out good small cars

with decent gas mileage and durability.

It's the big 3 that are keeping that a deep, dark secret by advertising only their big gas hogs with the higher profit margin.

I didn't buy US because a foreign maker had the kind of cargo room I needed in a small car, but that's pretty individual--I can't imagine too many other DUers hauling fleece and weaving gear.

My last car was a Ford Ranger that was old enough to vote when I retired it. It was underpowered but indestructible with highway mileage over 30.

[Peacetrain]

16. oh you hit that nail on the head..the advertising has been all about SUV's

I don't think I have ever seen the Vibe advertised.

[petronius]

23. I've been noticing that this Christmas season - perhaps it's just the shows I watch,

but all the car ads I see are expensive Cadillacs (hybrid Escalades, LOL!), big trucks, and SUVs. There's no push at all to sell smaller vehicles (and I'm not really seeing any 'import' ads, except for the occasional VW.

More broadly, the ads I see most frequently are cars and diamonds (and video games). There's such a disconnect between what I read on the business page about the economy? do advertisers really believe that this is a cars and jewelry sort of year, or have they just given up on the majority of us and decided that the only people who are buying things anyway are rich urban yuppy types who can be bamboozled into going to Jared despite the Bush Recession? :shrug:

[Peacetrain]

29. If they were going to toast the big three management for anything..it is their not promoting

the good small cars they do make.. especially this last summer...there was no excuse for that, because they have some great cars already developed and then just sit on them and do not promote them

[Kalyke]

81. I can answer this as a marketing person.

The reason you're seeing all the big-ticket, price-heavy cars advertised is that the only group of consumers who can afford to buy a car - any car - are the haves and have-mores.

Us regular folks can't afford a new car of any stripe. The marketing folks for the Big 3 know this and are catering to the only niche market that has any money. Can't blame them for that.

Once Spring hits, Obama is president, we have a new Congress and, providing they get the loan money, you'll see ads from the Big 3 for smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles that the Average Joe and Jill can afford.

They're trying to sell high-end quality right now instead of quantity. It's survival mode.

[Peacetrain]

84. I hope you are right.. because just looking at all these posts

you quickly realize people are products of habit. The domestic market has been so bad mouthed for so long, that people just do not even want to look, even though there are some great economical cars out there in the domestic line.

It drives me crazy, because you can almost be a dollar to a doughnut, that those are "some" of the adamant domestic car poo pooers..


If you love your car, foreign or domestic, you are going to stick with it.. I have had nothing but good luck with my GM's, and we own a Mazda truck also, (but that is the same as that ford b series..)..

The thing about the domestics, if there is a recall, you will hear about it one way or another.. there was a recall on the b series trucks.. been years ago, can't remember what it was now.. but there was no signal from Mazda, about it, and it is the same truck.

So I look for the union label.

But if the product is not advertised, how will people know :shrug:

[Romulox]

18. My wife's 08 Taurus is MUCH nicer for the money than an equivalent Camry

[peace13]

32. I hope it will be there for you in 200,000 miles.

That is the issue for me. If I buy a car every 12 years it better last. If a Tercel can do that the American cars should be able to. The successful commercial for an American car will be a shot of the odometer panning back to a body with little or no rust on it..

[Romulox]

34. Just so you understand, there is no special Japanese formula for steel.

Whether a car is American or Japanese isn't going to determine whether a car rusts or not.

[peace13]

38. Thanks for that.

What is the formula in the US steel that tends to make the cares rust out, if I might ask?

[Romulox]

40. You're still confused. I just told there is no such thing as "Japanese formula steel"

Most of the world's steel is made in China, regardless. :hi:

[hendo]

63. there are treatments that can be applied to steel

but thats about it.

[gollygee]

53. My '98 Taurus lasted past 200k miles

Though I replaced it with a Toyota Sienna so I can't shout the "don't buy foreign" mantra. Still, there are plenty of good US cars.

Maybe it's a bad paint job that makes some cars rust worse? We had some rust on our Taurus, but I live in Michigan and expect some rust. It wasn't worse than any other 10-year-old car.

[Kalyke]

82. It will

My mother's car has 120,000 on it, thus far, and has only needed plugs and plug wires.

[screembloodymurder]

19. Almost bought a 2009 Vibe.

I think they're the best made GM vehicle in the lots.

[Peacetrain]

28. I found out about the Vibe totally by accident.. literally was in one..

and the guy where we buy our cars, had this one in... had 25,000 miles on it, had been a rental.. so you know how those get beat up with different drivers.. no one stitch of a problem with it..

[Dreamer Tatum]

24. Glad it works for you. I'll stick with my Honda nt

[Greybnk48]

25. Our family only buys American

we have a Dodge, Chevy Impala (really nice but the seats aren't comfy for long hauls), my son has a Dodge and my daughter a Jeep. No complaints here.

[Peacetrain]

31. In my immediate family, we have had toyotas, hondas, and of course

American cars.. and right now, everyone one of us, is driving American made, for the mileage.. the only truck in the family is a 1995 Mazda,..

I just think people have gotten so used to bashing American made cars, that it has become a habit.. and while back in the 80's they were turning out some lemons no doubt.. man they have some great cars now.. small economical.. nice to look at.

[flvegan]

35. I might've bought a Vibe if they made a turbo version.

I love having a hatchback, but it's got to have more power than Pontiac offers in the Vibe.

[Luciferous]

36. My dad works for Chrysler

and told all of his kids never to buy one. Most of the people he works with don't even drive Chrysler vehicles. I do agree that there are some good American made cars out there (I had a 99 Saturn that never needed more than oil changes and a new battery) but some of them suck. I now drive a Hyundai and love it... I guess it just depends on what features/options you are looking for. I bought my car because it was cheap, and haven't had a single problem with it so far.

[Peacetrain]

41. I have never owned a Chrysler product, so I will take your word for it..

My Vibe was a year old when I bought it, and it cost 12,000..I never buy brand new cars.. I always buy at least a year old with plenty of warranty left if there is a problem. I will probably buy a 2008 next year, and give this one to my well deserving son.

[EnviroBat]

45. I like the Pontiac Vibe.

But I wanted to buy a vehicle that came with a 100k mile power-train warranty. So I had to buy a Japanese vehicle. I will buy American cars when they start standing behind them, and I know the engine will outlast the loan term. Sorry, but I've been burned too many times by American cars.

[musette_sf]

52. could you have gotten a Matrix?

same as the Vibe but Toyota branded

[EnviroBat]

57. I actually bought a Suzuki.

100k mile power-train warranty, 155 HP, and 28mpg city. I may look into the Matrix when I'm done with this one, but I'd really like AWD as an option. Although you sacrifice some mileage with any AWD vehicle, the icy weather we've had around here lately has upped my desire for a better handling car.

[Thegonagle]

74. Oh my word! In addition to the 100,000 mile powertrain warranty on the Vibe, Pontiac also offers...

optional All Wheel Drive on the Vibe!

Someone didn't do their homework. tsk tsk

[EnviroBat]

77. Umm, not in 06, sorry...

[Thegonagle]

73. Toyota has an even poorer warranty than Pontiac, and it's essentailly the exact same car.

Mitsubishi has a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. (Hyundai also has the 100,000 mile warranty, but everybody knows that they're Korean.)

EDIT: Suzuki does, too.

And I'll be! Pontiac offers a powertrain warranty of ... ta da! ... 100,000 miles! (The Toyota Matrix, the Vibe's mechanical twin, only has a 60,000 mile powertrain warranty!)

[Peacetrain]

85. Ah yep.. I think you are right..

[EnviroBat]

49. Let me site one small example of the superior, forward thinking

engineering in Japanese vehicles, that American car manufactures just don't seem to get.

Most fuel pumps on today's modern cars are located in the fuel tank. This is an electric motor which has to not only pump the fuel from the back of the car to the front, but keep that fuel at a constant pressure. If this pump fails, on most American cars it requires the mechanic to remove the entire fuel-tank, drain it, and clean out the tank, (to EPA standards by the way $$$). This adds hundred's of dollars in labor costs to the repair. Japanese cars have an access panel under the rear seat. The fuel lines are disconnected, and the fuel pump comes right out. the job can typically be done in about an hour. This is one example of why I've washed my hands of American cars. I've always felt the failures were engineered in to keep the dealers service bays making cash hand over fist. This was a problem that a child could have solved, and yet American car dealerships have been happily pulling fuel tanks since the advent of the electric fuel pump. I comes down to which manufacturer do you trust more? As far as I'm concerned, Ford lost my trust shortly after I went to work for them as a service tech. Hopefully they've corrected such bullshit repair problems, but somehow I doubt they have. My buddy just had his Chevy Malibu, (2004) in for this repair, and he got fucked out of $800.00 dollars, a ridiculous amount of cash for a fucking fuel-pump replacement.

[JVS]

55. How else does one keep such a bloated dealership network fed if not with horrendous repair costs?

[EnviroBat]

58. Exactly...

Unless you sell lots of bloated "Dumpsters on Wheels" to the narcissistic tools that fill the mall parking lots every weekend.

[Radical Activist]

56. I'd like an American union made car that gets over 40mpg.

Could you tell me what model to buy?

I drive an American made car now so it disappointments me that I won't be able to find an American car that offers what I want the next time I buy one.

[Nederland]

59. "American" made cars

What a quaint idea. Today you can buy an "American" car that is made in Mexico and a "Japanese" car that is made in Mississippi. Your definitions are about 30 years out of date...

[Odin2005]

62. That Toyota made in Mississippi was made in a non-union plant.

Some of us real Dems prefer to support the unions.

[Nederland]

66. I'd be happy to buy a union made car

So long as it lasted more than 70k miles and held its value well.

[Odin2005]

68. This isn't the 70s/80s anymore

According to my dad, who is a big car guy, there hasn't been much difference in quality, on the whole, between the Asian and domestic cars since the early 90s, and even before that there were plenty of good domestic cars when one knew where to look. My dad drove a 1976 Mercury Cougar between 1981 and 2000 and he told me that it was the best car he ever owned.

[Odin2005]

60. IMO the American consumer is a victim of anti-Domestic memes pushed by the Asian companies.

That is the only reason I can see for such hatred towards domestic cars.

My parents have a nice 2002 Chevy car (can't remember the model) that gets 32mpg; and it's no little compact, it's a pretty good sized car with a lotta leg room. They haven't had a problem with it since they bought it 4 years ago.

[Fire1]

70. I loved my Grand Cherokee and I love my Malibu!

[Initech]

75. I used to own a Michigan-manufactured Pontiac.

It was a great car until it started falling apart on me last year. I looked at getting an Australian-made Pontiac G8 but it wasn't in my price range.

[TK421]

83. I've driven three cars in my life, and I'll stick to imports thanks

My first car was an 88 Nissan Stanza, which was totaled at 186k. Other than that, no problems at all with that car.
Second car was a piece of shit 91 Ford Tempo, which was a coffin on wheels and in the shop at least twice a month. What an un-godly piece of fucking junk. End mileage...74k. I could literally go on for hours with all the things wrong with that hunk of junk, but why bother?
Third car was a Camry ( also an 88 ) that required some exhaust work to pass inspection but other than that, served me extremely well and never left me stranded. It was great on gas, too. Had to give it to a junk yard for $75 because most of the body ( and part of the floor ) had rusted out and the work needed to pass inspection exceeded twice the amount of the Kelly Blue Book value at that time. I realize the Ford was fairly old, but so were the other two.

[NNN0LHI]

86. Did you buy all those cars new or used?

I have heard of people who when they purchase a new vehicle the first thing they do is unhook the speedometer/odometer cable. Then they drive them hard and a lot for a few years before they re-hook the cable and then trade them back in with "low miles."

That Tempo you had may be one of those if you bought it used?

Thats why I don't buy used cars.

Don

[TK421]

87. Bought used, one was practically given to me. I still don't know what the story with the Tempo was

I didn't drive it that much ( I walk to work and had it parked out back ). Actually, I was afraid to even drive the thing. I really couldn't afford a new car or lease on what I make, so used was my only option, unfortunately.