The big 3, workers and the government

[madokie]

I say they shut down production and let the government pick up the tab for the workers pay while the government does a full accounting of all three auto companies to see where it is that the money has gone. Chances are mismanagement and thievery is where the problem lies and the only way to get an accurate accounting of that is with a thorough accounting/investigation. First up we should not be renegotiating the union contracts nor the retirement benifits that people have been paying into and counting on to be there when they retire. America is better than a few tinhorn despots and there is no better time to get control of all that has been going on these last 30-40 years than the present. PE Obama has already shown us where he stands so lets get behind him and demand that change we all voted for.

[fasttense]

1. I was listening to a caller from one of the Scandinavian countries on

Thom Hartmann yesterday. She said that when a company goes out of business the government picks up the tab for their loss wages, back pay and vacation pay. It is a fund workers pay into, like an insurance policy. She said they pay for it through their taxes and they deserve this protection.

Funny, because we all pay into Social Security, like an insurance policy, yet repukes think we shouldn't be entitled to it.

There is an old saying, "You get what you pay for." But in the bizarre world of Republicons, you get a whole lot less than what you pay for and you shouldn't expect it no matter how much you paid for it.

[madokie]

2. Without some serious investigating I can't see how the right thing to do is to just give them money

The workers are not to blame in any of this so I feel it would only be right that they continue to receive their pay while investigetors find out what the hell caused all this. From the side lines over here it looks more and more like it has been timed to happen when it has. I sure don't think they should just give the companies money to do as they please. From what I read Ford doesn't even need the money to continue at the present time, so some monkey bidness is going on there somewhere. The lost production won't hurt either because all the dealerships are flush with autos to sell. It would give them time to clear out their lots while at the same time we find out just what the hell happened and who caused it to happen. My gut feeling is someone is guilty of cooking the books.

[pnutbutr]

5. just poor management

I don't think cooking the books has anything to do with it. It's just poor management of a large corporation. The focus by the big 3 seems to be behind a few years. While Japanese companies are focusing on fuel efficiency the American companies are focusing on continuing the muscle car battles with some green thrown in haphazardly for good measure. Nothing wrong with building performance cars but when you make it your company focus especially with regards to advertising you are just asking for trouble when those cars are the last thing most people want right now.

[madokie]

6. Thats what we really need to know for sure

right now there could be any of a number of things at play. Lets find out what it is and then go from there.

[KharmaTrain]

3. Here's The Rub...

Closing down the "Big 3" doesn't close down the entire auto industry...Honda, Toyota and the non-union companies will go on just fine...most operating in Repugnican "right to work" states. Letting Detroit wither will make it even harder to restart the industry if and when money is allocated. It's a real fuckin' mess.

I'm fully with you on a need to get an accounting not only for where all these company's profits went when they were selling SUVs like there was no tomorrow. But the line forms to the left, there are many other failing companies that require the same scrutiny if we're going to get to the bottom of the people and games that created this economy abyss we've fallen off of. The bailout to the Big 3 doesn't solve the problem, nor does it give workers security. All the money won't mean squat if the rest of the economy remains in the tank, credit is tougher to get than laid in the Arctic and people can't afford groceries yet a new car. We need to get priorities straight and a bigger view of the economic shitstorm going on. It's whack-a-mole out there right now...this regime just tries to throw money at messes until it can steal out of town with its suitcases bulging with what's left of the treasury.

It's absolutely stupid to give billions to the selfish rat bastards who speculated their companies, the jobs of their employees and our economy into this mess. They're gonna figure a way out of this mess? And I was born yesterday on a turnip truck...

I've felt a re-organization would require union participation in the management of whatever entity exists once the dust settles...bet it 3, 2 or just one company. My long term hopes are to seed a hundred new GMs...empower smaller companies who can mobilize faster and bring to market better and more efficient cars. We've spent the last generation with "bigger is better", it isn't.

Cheers...

[madokie]

4. Something has to be done for Chysler and GM now

and this is something that can't be or shouldn't be put off until later so let the government pick up the workers tab while they sort it all out. When its figured out what to do then maybe charge the auto companies for the wages the government has been picking up. This shouldn't take but a few weeks at most, maybe a couple months. We shouldn't shut down the auto companies but we should defer work while the fix is figure out. I have no answers except we need to find out what is really going on there.

[KharmaTrain]

7. It's Trying To Walk And Chew Gum...

You can't let the plants shut down...once they're gone, they're gone...or if they restart, all bets are off. I've seen "restructuring"...a kinder, gentler word for union busting, thus why I'd rather see the plants continue to operate rather than absorbing a large number of newly unemployed. The focus here needs to be on re-organization of these companies that make them both efficient and competitive. This surely can't be done by the three stooges who sit at the head of these companies or anyone else who made decisions that led to this fiasco. Nationalize if we must, but to just give $15 or $20 billion without much more than a wink and a nod from these dudes will just kick this can down the road...at least let's get this re-organization underway and bring in fresh blood and ideas, including the unions and workers who have the most to gain and lose here.

Cheers...

[madokie]

8. Well I was only talking about for the time it would take to find the cause

not a shut down requiring a new startup or busting of the unions. I agree with you and I sense maybe I'm not making myself clear somehow. The republiCONs and the ceo's want to bust the unions, not me. I won't have any part of that.

[notadmblnd]

10. These are loans... These are loans....THESE ARE LOANS!

No one is giving away anything and the automakers are not asking for a handout unlike the banks. Please understand, there is a difference. The reason the automakers need the LOAN is because the banks have frozen the lines of credit normally available to them. The m-f'ing bankers reneged and didn't do what they said they were going to do with all the money they got from the bailout. where was the outcry to shut them all down?

The ignorance about this being a handout is really getting on my nerves.

[SharonAnn]

11. Actually, other auto companies won't be "just fine". They depend on the same suppliers

and if the suppliers lose a large chunk of business from one auto company, they may go under. That hurts all auto copanies who are their suppliers.

There are lots of cascaded effects, not the least of which is the taxpayer picking up all the pensions guaranteed through the federal Pension Guaranty Benefit Program.

[hyperfreep]

9. Everyone must

take responsibility.

[StreetKnowledge]

12. Detroit

I'll say it again, because I've said it before and far too many people on DU aren't listening.

Detroit made SUVs BECAUSE PEOPLE WANTED SUVs! What caused them to want those instead of traditional station wagons? CAFE. Yep, corporate average fuel economy - which effectively killed the traditional station wagon. Americans tend to like driving big roomy cars. I can sympathize - I drive such a car, admittedly.

GM has made lots of mistakes with the car market. Crappy quality, which is the biggest problem, is part them not paying as much attention and part the UAW workers not giving a rat's ass. I've worked on a line, so I know that plenty of UAW guys only care about their paychecks, and do the absolute minimum possible they can get away with. That failing hits both management and the workers.

Vehicle choice is a management fault. GM in particular, is an insular organization the likes of which have to be seen to be believed. In 2000, a study found that of GM's top 6000 personnel, only 233 of them had worked for anyone else. So of those 6000, 5767 of them had only ever worked for General Motors. And people wonder why they don't think very well?

Everyone needs to pitch in to help Detroit. Ford's Mulally is a helluva good man - he led Boeing into kicking the hell out of government-owned-and-subsidized-to-the-eyeballs Airbus. We need two more guys like him for GM and Chrysler. Wagoner and especially Nardelli need to retire. Nardelli's the headdick who spent six years running Home Depot into the ground and then took off with a $210 million severance package. I think they ought to put Roger Penske (one of the biggest car dealers in the country, and a self-made billionaire) running GM, and find a similar good guy at Chrysler. Part of me wants to say get Lee Iacocca back running things at Chrysler, but he's 84 and a bit too old to be pushing at this level.

The UAW, when the next contracts come up, ought to try using their own big fund to pay healthcare costs to buy a chunk of the Big 3 and get a management stake, and then distribute the stocks bought amongst GM workers. The idea here is to make them have a little more concern about the company's well being. The company prospers, and they get some money out of it. With stock at a few bucks a share, if each worker got 100 shares right now, if GM recovers enough that its stock gets to be worth $50, that's $5000 for each UAW member. The workers could do a lot to help GM by simply doing their jobs the best they can, and by the supervisors there actively telling the workers to let them know if they see faults.

Then you have the buying public. Look, if gas is cheap people will want big cars. Why not figure out how to build big cars that get excellent fuel mileage. I don't know why stuff like plastic bodies and more aluminum in cars never caught on like wildfire - it makes a lot of sense. Likewise, turbocharging, direct fuel injection and turbodiesel engines would also help. The finest turbodiesels in Europe make 275 horsepower and get 40 miles to the gallon cruising. Try that in gasoline-fueled car! Why can't GM do that?

Everybody here talks about electric and hybrid cars, but the fact is that pure electric cars are not viable (not enough range, too long to charge) and hybrids are a complex, expensive solution to increasing fuel economy that can have reliability issues down the road. Why not try simple solutions first? Instead of building huge SUVs and focusing on those, build car-based activity vehicles. Detroit actually is on the right track here - the Dodge Caliber/Nitro, Ford Escape, Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix and Chervolet Equinox are the cars that work here. But the ultimate ace of that category is the Nissan Rogue, an example of which my significant other drives. Nice car, that thing. :)

The biggest part here is the media. I think Iacocca's old tagline used by Chrysler - "If you find a better car, buy it" - ought to get used by somebody. The next GM boss should be on every TV show imaginable, explaining the Chevrolet Volt and why its such a piece of engineering history. They ought to do what Mazda did and go around the country, allowing people to test one of their cars against a few import rivals. That gets attention and feedback for the automakers.