The "I know a rich man" thread motivated me to write about last night

[MindPilot]

I'm a high-level (like 3rd tier) computer support guy for a major, major multinational electronics firm. I make a few k shy of six figures.

Yesterday afternoon I was asked to go the home of the VP of corporate communications to set up a new computer for him. Aside from the issue of the project being mostly a brain-dead exercise in clicking through nag screens and setting a home page--something I really have a tough time comprehending that someone needs me to do for them--I was struck by the vast wealth-gulf between us. This is not in any way critical of the man himself; he is an all-around decent guy...probably even a democrat although we didn't talk politics.

The home is a typical mcmansion in a gated community, probably a good 4500 square feet with the 3-car garage and the crescent driveway. He drives a new T-bird, the wife has a Lincoln Navigator. Because he was transfered from another part of the country, the company paid for his move and helped him buy the house. By help, I mean they probably underwrote the mortgage so he could get a really good interest rate.

So here's my basic issue with this whole thing. This guy makes probably 10 or more times what I do. How is what he does of THAT much more value to the company than what I do? If I'm not at work keeping the computers running, productivity literally drops to zero...people are being paid to do nothing. If he's not at work, there's an empty chair at the executive conference table.

Of course this VP is responsible for the company's face to media and general public so there's a lot riding on that, but there's a lot riding on what I do too.

Do I make too little or does he make too much?

[LiberalEsto]

1. You need a union

If IT professionals had unionized 10 years ago, I doubt there would be all this importation of H1B visa IT workers today.

[madame defarge]

2. You'll drive yourself crazy...

...if you compare yourself to others & how much they make or don't make. As I always tell my daughter, "There will always be people who have more than you & people who less than you. Do your part for the world & help those who have less."

It sounds like you've got a fairly decent salary. The bigger question (to me) is: Do you enjoy what you're doing?

Quotes from Easter masters:

"Health, contentment and trust are your greatest possessions, and freedom your greatest joy."
- The Dhammapada

"Knowledge is the best kind of wealth."
- Dalai Lama

[MindPilot]

7. No I hate it, but I'm over fifty, work in IT and I have a decent secure position

I'm just hanging on 'til I can say buh-bye to work altogether.

If Dalai Lama says "Knowledge is the best kind of wealth", I have to say "competence is the best kind of power."

[merh]

3. He makes too much.

And there is no corporate executive today worth the salaries they are paid, no one and I mean no one is irreplaceable.

If you were gone, it would take longer to fill your job to the level you are performing now, the one that follows you would have a lot of catching up.

I think Ken Lay proves that executives in corporations are not as great as some think, they are just folks with more expensive shoes and suits and generally, their employees keep them looking good.

[truedelphi]

4. It's the status thing - this guy somehow makes the Company look

Good - and I know it is a weird set of values but looking good is what it is all about in America

i lived in Silicon Valley in the early eighties and had one friend who was hired the moment after receiving an MBA from MIT, and this job of theirs involved them doing NOTHING.

NADA. The job had been described to him as an intensive hands on managerial position, but he basically was never allowed to mingle with or even know the ins and outs of the department he was supposedly running.

For this he was paid close to six figures.

THe reason for him being there was revealed when he overheard the VP over him say to another VP - "Well, you have two MIT masters' degrees in your department, but since I added Dan, I have three."

Dan started bringing the limited things he needed to bring to work to write the book he always wanted to write from that small office.

I lost touch and then about eight years ago saw him hosting a Tech TV show - interviewing people from the computer industry. He seemed relaxed and happy. He was no longer stressed and miserable, the way he had been when paid to just be the third MIT degree.

[Uben]

5. Don't lose sleep over it

Every person has worth, but few feel thay are truly paid what they are worth. And, yes, a lot of people make much more than they are worth, whether by chance or effort.

I am sure your position is envied by many, also. Remember, there are those who work three jobs, most at or just above minimum wage, to feed and clothe their kids,put five bucks in the collection plate on Sunday, and pay the upkeep on a '87 Dodge. There are many more in this category than in yours. Be thankful (I'm sure you are), and try not to covet others. It serves no useful purpose.

[MindPilot]

11. I try to never lose sight of that, and I don't covet any of it

...execpt for maybe the new T-bird. :D

When I see a homeless person, my first thought is "there but for a few paychecks go I".

[Sapphire Blue]

6. Perspective... How much does the person who cleans the company's toilets make?

What would the employees do if they had to use filthy toilets? Why is this not one of the highest paid jobs, considering its importance?

[MamaBear]

10. Brava Sapphire Blue!

I don't think any of the executives or the midlevels would want to be standing over a xerox machine at 3:00 a.m. inhaling paper and toner dust, either. Or hauling the mail around.

Thank you for putting the discussion in perspective.

[MindPilot]

14. You are absolutely correct...although I believe

they are in a group of recently unionized workers and this is CA so they are not as badly treated as in some other areas.

But your point is well-taken.

[mondo joe]

28. You forgot supply and demand.

How many people in the population at large are qualified to clean toilets?

How many are qualified to do high level IT?

How many are qualified to do......?

[bobbolink]

30. You have echoed my sentiments!

I keep hearing all this stuff about getting "a good education" so "you can get a good paying job", and can't help but wonder.... if everyone was a chief, who would do the shit jobs?

Can't you just see the CEOs scrubbing toilets?

I mean, really, do people ever think through this stuff?

I've often thought it would be really good if all the janitors and maids got together and went on strike for one month. Maybe they would be valued when the month was up.

I'm amazed at how narrow our thinking really is!

Thanks, Sapphire Blue... you can always be counted upon to reduce things to it's simple and sensible issues.

[abluelady]

8. It's An Interesting Question

I used to supervise switchboard operators at a business. They were literally the first contact a person might have with the company. And they were paid one of the smallest salaries. It sure as hell didn't make sense to me, if image is that important. But what do I know. I'm a Democrat! LOL

[Mend]

9. both....you make too little, he makes too much. Would he come

to your house and help you do something? BTW, I would much rather have you on a desert island than him. I have a feeling you are a whole lot smarter.

[MindPilot]

16. And that's the thing. What skills does he have that I would need?

In other words, there is a very real possibility I could do his job. He most definitely could not do mine.

And thanks for the compliment!:blush:

[Ursus Rex]

20. It's not about the skills

... it's about the Rolodex (well, you know what I mean): he has a higher perceived value because of his contacts within the industry, his social circle, his school days, etc. - in a roundabout way, I'm saying that his "job" doesn't so much involve "doing" as "being" - and yes, it sucks, since he really doesn't produce anything, but the typical response to that is, "well, without sales, you wouldn't have a job"

I feel ya - I bailed from management years ago, right as I was poised to get to the much-ballyhooed Director level, when I realized that I didn't want to do what was necessary to rise, knowing that I could make just a bit less and have far fewer sleepless nights as a contractor, not to mention that I get to see my son every day for more than an hour or so

Here's something to say that almost always leaves management climbers sputtering: "Anyone can make a million dollars, if all they want is a million dollars." - key phrase being, "all they want" - power? - that's something else ... sex appeal? - a boat? - free time? have that million in a specific time? - nope, that's qualifying the criterion

[Rosemary2205]

12. All it means is

There are less people in the marketplace with his qualifications and more people on the marketplace with yours. Actual value of the job done doesn't set wages. The difficulty in acquiring someone to do that job is what does.

[rock]

13. He's a manager. Right?

Managers are the decision makers. Somebody has to decide how much employees are paid. That would be the managers. See where I'm headed?

[Lucky Luciano]

15. Here is why the gap exists....

I was in a similar situation to you in many ways when I started work at my current job. They wanted to initially offer me an IT job, but I did not want that. I wanted to be more involved in the business side of the job. I wanted to be more involved with making the decisions that would make profits or lose money. There is more risk there. If I were an IT guy, I would merely be following orders with minimal creativity to advance the cause. Sure, it would have been important nand things would break down without people doing the IT thing, but code monkies are easy to find. I did not want to be a code monkey. I wanted to be a player.

At the end of my 7 month internship (where I was very very very well paid actually - like a contractor with unlimited overtime), they had me interview for the IT position. I intentionally pissed off the IT guys so they would not hire me. Then we would find out just how much the company wanted me. I was indirectly saying, "Hire me on the business side or not at all." I played my gambit. I got what I wanted. I was hired on the business side - not only that i was hired as an associate director too at the best possible desk to work on! Otherwise, I would have been hired as a non-officer with 2 years before becoming an AD doing shitty C++ programming implementing other people's ideas instead of my own. I got my bonus yesterday. Had I been the IT guy, it would have been about 30-40% of my salary. Instead, it was 200% of my salary. This is my first year of ever having job since grad school doing my math degree. Actually, the bonus was paid based on 6 months of full time work, so in some ways you can view it as being 400% of the salary. My contracting time earned no bonus in theory.

That said, I still do a lot of C++ programming, but it is for me. I get to be creative and I get to make important decisions that are make or break based on the numerical results that pop out of the computer.

If you want to get paid like the other guy, then insist and muscle in on being a more important decision maker. You may have to play chicken with people sometimes though....

[bigscott]

18. "competence is the best kind of power."

I love the statement but I understand where you're coming from. I am training a VP level ignoramus who makes 230K. I make less but am not complaining at all about my compensation - it just makes me insane to think he is pocketing 6K more every month than i am!!

[Lucky Luciano]

24. My boss sits right next to me...

His bonus was probably 5-10 times bigger than mine...and to the right of him is his boss...he probably got a bonus that was 25-30 times bigger than my boss! That works out to 125-150 times mine! Of course, for both guys it is very very well deserved in my opinion. They are very good. I have a year of experience...my boss 8 years (We are a group of two as a subdesk on the big desk), and his boss (The one that runs the whole desk) 16 years, so I have no complaints at all.

[demrabble]

17. Both

You make too little, and he makes far too much.

You also need a union to negotiate your working conditions, salary, and benefits.

Why did you have to go to set up his personal computer? Shouldn't he have had to hire someone to do that?

[MindPilot]

25. It wasn't really his personal computer --it is his home office

so supporting it is technically within my area of responsibility.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. How Do You Know He Makes 10 Times As Much As You? Are You Also Really Complaining That You Only

make about 6 figures?

Sheesh. This whole OP is quite perplexing to me.

[MindPilot]

29. Be not perplexed, OMC

I have no complaint about my salary--I know I make more than most of the people on the planet. I wish I made more, but really who doesn't?

The 10 times figure is mostly a guess, based on what I see, but remember, I'm in IT so I see a lot.

[Coyote_Bandit]

21. Five years ago

I was in a situation similar to yours when I unexpectedly found myself downsized and traded in for a younger newly educated male model. It was quite a shock to realize that despite my good education (BA, MA, MBA, JD), I was largely unemployable at the ripe old age of 40. After much soul searching I came to realize that my talents were better suited to other fields of endeavor. I did not want to spend the remainder of my life doing garbage law chasing ambulances handling nasty divorces or defending criminals. And I also decided that I did not want to support corporate Amerika. That not only impacts where I shop but it also impacts where I work. I am in the process of reinventing myself. Do something you love and you will never have to work a day in your life. Work for yourself instead of "the man" and you are the one who profits. And don't forget that not all the rewards of work well done can be measured in financial terms.

[PATRICK]

22. The system

I know that sounds trite but picture a young industry where the doers do everything, divide up the novel spoils of Croesus and have an unbridled future of growth. The money means a a need a to manage. the flow attracts people who manage the money. In America that means trouble. Ben and Jerry are a small example of how easy it is to initiate a workers' paradise and then when tyou try to let it go into the business mainstream the managers take over, get the profits, tyrannize the doers, lower their slaries, fire them, and run the creative growth into the ground hidden by the illusion of stock growth and other numerical schemes. You can see the original founders and genuises being laid off by the wolves they hired as CEOs unless they become the Gates or Jobs themselves, something no adaptive CEO comes in without knowing to defend themselves against.

Planned, intentional, cultural? Certainly it is amazing to see the original workers accept their being tossed out even if if they have the money they want and are burned out. it is hard to blame some of the individuals you resent. Some on the LOWER rungs are resented as well in this pyramid with the rigged escalator and receive more abuse because it is easier to lash out down the line, by the rules of the system.

So one needs unions to survive in this and some stockholder clout to rein in the topfeeders. One would like some form of socialism to replace this insane and eventually destructive capitalism. So welcome to the awakening stage. If you had the McMansion and the gadzillion dollars you would be much less likely to see things that way at all. And who could blame you?

[AngryAmish]

23. You are at his house, he is not at yours

So which person does the company value more?

[datasuspect]

26. it's the connections he brings with him

they traffic in a world of influence that few have access to.

he is compensated for his ability to schmooze well with other wealthy people and the stable of wealthy people he can bring with him or use his influence upon to help to organization who pays him.

[Javaman]

27. The basic reason is this...

I remember this quote I read years ago. To paraphrase,"generally those who are in charge ask the questions, those who aren't in charge, know the answers".

So the moral to this story is: if you want to be in charge and making a 6 to 7 figure salary; be ignorant and ask lots of questions, but never do anything material enough that people can say that you are good at.

Be as vague as possible. And there is the answer to the golden road of success.

:banghead: