OK, I'm curious

[cali]

Poll question: OK, I'm curious

Is it acceptable for parents to deliberately have sex in the presence of their children, in order to "educate" the child about sex?


* inspired by thread about the mom and her boyfriend who did exactly this, I want to see what a poll that enables folks to remain anonymous, reveals.

[Hepburn]

1. IMO....

....it could qualify as a lewd and licivious act with a child under Calif law. Depends on the age of the child on how it would be charged and it most likely would qualify the parents at a minimum to a trip to the juvenile court and the child would be removed under Section 300 dependency statutes.

[bryant69]

2. Troubling issue

Seems like it would mess the kids up though, no matter how benign the parents intended it to be.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jonathan50]

3. Our puritan heritage is showing..

My wife and I didn't and wouldn't, but people should be free to raise their children as they see fit.

We have no problem with children being taught to hate others based on arbitrary criteria, it's not considered "child abuse".

Some of the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity and Islam I would definitely consider child abuse for the things they teach their children.

You are damned and are going to burn in Hell for eternity unless you do *exactly* as we tell you. How is that not child abuse?

[cali]

5. Bullshit.

We do have a problem with children being to taught to hate others. At least the members of DU certainly do, and the majority of them do consider this child abuse. Sexual abuse of children in NEVER OK. It has nothing to do with people being free to raise children as they see fit.

BTW, you haven't answered my question, as far as I know: Do you think it's a loving act for a grown man to watch porn and jerk off while seated on a sofa with his girlfriend's 8 year old child?

[WinkyDink]

6. If you want to argue that "people should be free to raise their children as they see fit",

you can't in the same breath argue that "Some of the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity and Islam I would definitely consider child abuse...."

You're either laissez-faire, or you're not.

[bryant69]

8. Well maybe he's laissez faire with some and hardline with others?

You know like me - I think people should be publicly flogged for listening to Country Music or boy bands (although those seem to have mercifully died off) but people should be rewarded for listening to Gorrilaz or LCD Soundsystems.

Bryant

[ourbluenation]

17. given the culture we live in here, it's a bad idea for a lot of reasons.

[ms liberty]

4. No, this is totally UNacceptable, but....

this is one of those things that a kid often sees accidently. That's NOT child abuse or anything, it's just one of those events that happens. I'm reminded of a friend of mr liberty's who told him once about how he and his wife were 'going at it' early one morning when all of a sudden they felt uncomfortable, and looking over, saw a set of eyes, peeking at them just above the mattress, as big as saucers. It was their daughter who had slipped into their room unnoticed. As you might imagine, they were completely freaked out, and it totally ruined the mood for them! It's a funny story only because so many parents have had a similar kind of accident happen, and so many of us remember accidently seeing and/or hearing something similar...and of course the visual of this pair of little eyes so wide, so not-understanding, is just hilarious. I'm also reminded of the commercial where the kid is giving his first 'art showing' to his parents, and after pictures of their house, the grandparents, the dog, the kid says "and this is mommy and daddy playing leap frog" - and the parents looked shocked and grab it, saying "we'll purchase that one RIGHT NOW!" I think it's a Tostito's or Doritos commercial. It's really funny too, because this is the kind of thing that many people have in their memory.

But those are all accidental happenings, which are "normal" and NOT deliberate or disgusting. The thought of parents deliberately having sex in front of their kids IS disgusting, and it seems kind of perverted too. Parents should educate their children about sex, but not by SHOWING them!!! The first thought I had when I saw your thread was EEEWWWWWWW! The EEEWWWW factor of that kind of behavior is off the charts.

I'll add in closing that I've been away from the DU for a couple of days, and I haven't seen this thread that you're referencing - but I don't need to in order to have an opinion, IMHO.

[stillcool]

7. My exposure to inappropriate...

sexual behavior at a young age makes it difficult to imagine a scenario where trauma was removed from the equation. I can not comment on something I personally know nothing about.

[wuushew]

9. This poll is premised upon the idea that sex is evil

which I reject.

In a solely libertarian sense no physical harm is being done and to judge other people on the appropriateness of their educational beliefs is authoritarian and intrusive.

Is your thinking that sexual behavior that is illustrated by adults will be readily emulated by children?

[cali]

10. I don't think so

In fact, the poll is as unjudgemental as I could make it. I'd like to know if other DUers see the poll as constructed in a way that casts sex as evil.

As for the premise that in a libertarian sense, no harm is being done, well consider the situation in which a child is repeatedly berated and screamed at and humiliated verbally by a parent or other adult. No physical harm is being done, but immense psychological harm is being done.

And yes, sexual behavior that is illustrated by adults IS readily emulated by children. No offense, but that's very basic knowledge.

[wuushew]

12. I am assuming it was consensual?

it was not rape or an act of painful violence so in what way would a child take away a sense of fear or sadness from viewing the act?

[cali]

14. First of all it doesn't matter jackshit whether the act between

the two adults was consensual. A child can't consent to watching adults have sex. And what of the adults were into a consensual s&m relationship? I suppose you wouldn't have a problem with that either. Sick. Sick. Sick. Second of all, in the story about this case, the man made a practice of watching porn and jerking off in front of the 9 year old child.

I hope like hell you don't have children. With your attitude, please consider NEVER having them. It's clear you know nothing about them.

[wuushew]

22. Whatever dude

At least I am attempting to play devil's advocate to your points. Emotionalism is no defense for self-evident hypocrsisy in societal norms. Quantify your objections and give reasons, don't just say "sick, sick, sick".

I never said I approved, nor did I wish to emualate the values of this couple.

[Marrah_G]

15. It was like this:

Mom and live in boyfriend have the child for a visitation during the summer. Child normally lives with her father.

Numerous times: Child is sitting on the bed with them as they have sex at the encouragement of the man so she can learn how to do it.

Numerous times: Child is in the living room with the man as the man masturbates on the couch while watching porn.

[On the Road]

11. According to Monty Python,

it should be part of classroom education in grade school.

[youthere]

19. ...

"You don't need to go leaping straight for the clitoris!"
"Oh do pay attention Wymer...I'm doing this for your benefit!"

[Horse with no Name]

13. As I said before

The problem with this is that children mimic what their parents do so what happens when this girl starts making sexual advances on young boys?
You cannot teach a child not to engage in sexual activity until an appropriate age while fucking like bunnies and enjoying the hell out of it in front of her.
I'm not talking about the occasional glimpse when a child inadvertently walks in, I think that happens to everyone. I even considered sporking my eyes when I walked in on my grandparents. I'm talking about conditioning a young child to sexual activity. It sounds an awful lot to me like they were "grooming" her for other things.

[question everything]

16. Other - none of my business

In recent years we have allowed for too many busy bodies to stick their noses in how parents raise their kids.

Sure, we do not want parents beating their kids to death, or starving them but otherwise, stay out.

Most of us grew up when spanking was not frown upon, when we were punished and we ended up OK. When we were toddlers we were kept in play pans to, yes, protect us from wondering around the house and we did not end up bruised for life because we were "restricted."

Most of us also grew up around smoking parents and other family members and we are alive and well.

Cleaning supplied did not have those horrible caps that today only a child can open, but not an adult and we survived.

But today perfect strangers are encouraged to call the police if a child is not in a seat belt, or if a child is in a car when someone is smoking and these are the only cases that I know of.

Yes, children need protection but it is up for the parents, most of them are doing adequate jobs. What many don't realize is that it does not take long for a problem child to threaten a parent that s/he will call the police to report abuse - even where there is none. And this is why we have those Nanny 911 to teach parents that they are responsible to set boundaries and rules and, yes, to discipline, not to be friends and then to wonder why they cannot control their own household.

[donco6]

18. Just visualizing how Nanny 911 would deal with this.

Having a hard time imagining that one.

[question everything]

30. Never watched the program, but a local family apparently

was a subject of the nanny so the local paper went to see who the family is doing now and reported. A case of where the mother wanted to be a friend of her 9 year old daughter. The kids would skate inside the house with the mother mumbling: whatever happened to our agreement not to skate inside the house?

The nanny did help some, but the family is back to some of the troubled behavior.

[Marrah_G]

21. Sometimes a situation comes up where people have to step in

If a child goes to visit a non-custodial parent over vacation and that parents boyfriend invites her into their bed so he can teach her hw to have sex by watching him screw her mother I think that crosses the line. I also think it crosses the line for the mothers boyfriend to be watching porn with the child in the room while he masturbates.

This wasn't a case of loving parents. This was a case of a guy involving a child of someone else in his own sexual experiences. Just because the child has said he didn't actually touch her does not make this any less sick.

I do understand what you are saying, but in this case I think the state had to step in for the safety of the child.

[question everything]

29. No, this is a case for the custodial parent to re open

the settlement and to determine whether that child should continue to visit the non-custodial parent unsupervised.

Again, between parents and children. If you ask the state to step in you end up having social service employees descending on the poor child who may end up in a foster home, not understanding why she was cannot be with her parents.

[LeftishBrit]

20. I voted that it's abusive; but what makes it abusive IMO is not so much that the child happened to

see the sex act, but that she was deliberately shown it as a means of 'teaching' her about sex.

This means that the child was involved to a degree that is quite unacceptable. I suspect a sick form of exhibitionism on the part of the parents: that they were excited by having the child watch them. In any case, the child was being exposed to adult sex - as an active, not just passive, audience - in a very inappropriate way.

If a child just happens to come across her parents DTD, or even if parents living in cramped conditions with little privacy are somewhat careless about who sees them, I would not feel quite so strongly. Not a wonderful idea, but not abusive in the same way.

[Vektor]

23. Why hasn't anyone else here stated the obvious?

In this particular case, the "dad" is clearly a pedophile.

It is completely inappropriate to be watching porn and masturbating in front of a nine year old girl.

It is completely inappropriate to be having sex with a nine year old girl's mom, and encouraging the child to watch to "learn how to do it."

There is something more sinister at work here.

There is NO good reason a nine year old has to learn HOW to have sex.

Pedophiles often target single women with children - they romance the mom, all the while, developing a relationship with the kids to get access to them. They will then introduce the kids to sexual images and situations, "gradually" to desensitize the child to adult sexuality. All the while, the pedophile is planning to eventually molest the child. This is what is referred to as "testing the waters." If the child doesn't panic when first introduced to this stuff, he or she is then slowly introduced to more and more explicit behavior from the offending adult. Eventually, once the pedophile feels that the victim has been exposed enough to this sort of thing, he eventually begins touching the child, and molesting him or her.

What the man in the story is doing is preparing the child to be less resistant to his advances when they eventually do occur, and they will. A child who has been made to feel "comfortable" with seeing adults having sex is less likely to protest when he or she is touched in a sexual way. Especially a familiar adult whom they already know well and have seen behaving in this manner before. The adult's plan, by exposing the child to such sexuality, is to convince him or her that this is "normal behavior" hoping the child will protest less when his attentions eventually turn toward them. And they will.

This is a classic case, textbook classic, and is a HUGE red flag.

I work in health care, and am currently doing a pediatrics rotation. The emergency room at the hospital where I am employed has a sexual assault response team with professionals specifically trained in identifying, addressing, and caring for victims of sexual abuse and assault. The very vast majority of abused children are abused by someone they know, someone close to the family. It is extremely rare that the abuse starts out with a sudden, unexpected act of outright rape. There is almost always an "indoctrination" process before the actual molestation begins.

This man needs to be stopped before the little girl ends up a victim - if she hasn't already.

[Horse with no Name]

28. Exactly. She is being "groomed" to become a victim

It's nice to see other people get that.

[depakid]

24. edited

Didn't see the original story.

[Bandit]

25. Is it acceptable to kill an animal in front of a child to teach them about killing?

:shrug: Sex is so very damn horrible, I feel like killing something..

[blondeatlast]

26. "Deliberate" being the operative word here. It's a private act.

If CONSENTING ADULTS want to have sex in front of other CONSENTING ADULTS, fine by me.

But just close the damn door in front of the kid, is that so much to ask?

[peacebaby3]

27. I do criminal work and have many cases dealing with clients that

have severe mental health problems. One major thing we look at is the amount of trauma a client may have had in his or her life. Witnessing either or both parents engaged in sexual activity is absolutely considered traumatic for a child and would have a negative impact on that child. It is and should be considered child abuse.

Edit: typo